Lack of Universal Vacuum Hinders Companion Diversity and Pet Updates

[AperoBeltaTwo]

 At this point new players get a sentinel and, consequently, vacuum almost immediately as they start playing Warframe. From the moment they acquire Taxon, there is no reason for a new player to ever engage with the looting system without the vacuum quality of life. People get accustomed to vaccuum from the start and only play without it when sentinel dies - meaning that playing without vacuum could also be subconsciously associated with punishment. Pets on the other hand are acquired later in the game and provide little to compensate for the lack of vacuum's quality of life - especially considering the random nature of pets' AI and abilities in particular.   

 Reality of the issue is, sentinels are the most popular class of companions in the game right now and most attended to as evident by multiple updates, mod additions, decorative items, reworks and primed versions released. While pets are mostly abandoned soon after the initial release and stay in the game with all the bugs and problems for months and years. 

 This situation could only be explained by the lack of Universal Vacuum. There's just no other factor powerful enough to cause it. Meaning, that lack of Universal Vacuum results in animal companions being significantly less popular than sentinels, while receiving less attention from the developers for that same reason.

Solution I proposed a while back was: "Let players have a slide in the menu to control passive vacuum range for both warframes (12m) and archwings (60m)." For the minority of the people who dislike vacuum to be able to play without it if they want. I'm against vacuum as a mod, since it limits players' companion customization choices.

 This issue had been falling on deaf ears for years. Hopefully, the reason for that isn't just stubborness.


 

 

 

 

I'll list here Reasons For and Against Universal Vacuum (name yours, I'll add them to the main post - in one sentence, please):

Spoiler

Reasons For UV:

1. Accessibility of Vacuum makes it a regular and integral part of the looting system.
2. Animal companions are the single main instance when you're forced to sacrifice vacuum quality of life.
3. UV would remove the main reason why animal companions are less popular.
4. Making animal companions more popular would prove beneficial for future companions' updates and customizables, revitalize the general playerbase's interest in various Kavats and Kubrow.
5. Losing vacuum in missions slows the flow of the game down to a snail pace, untill the moment players run out of ammo or energy.
6. Vacuum allows for freedom of movement, fleshing out parkour 2.0.
7. Special effects, lighting and certain terrains make it impossible to see what's on the ground.
8. Vacuum allows players to focus on the mission. 
9. Vacuum is essential for archwings on both space and PoE maps.
10. Titania in her ult suffers without universal vacuum heavily. Future Zephyr rework if it ever happens might end up with the same problem.  
11. It's impossible to see ammo in the grass in PoE or on the new Earth tileset.
12. Without UV dogs and cats mostly are just this annoyance that takes vacuum away without giving us a substantial compensation. With UV, though, pets would give us whatever they have to offer, without taking away the vacuum QoL.
13. Players are willing to kill their warframes just to get the Vacuum back, whenever the sentinel is destroyed.
14.  

Reasons Against UV:

1. Casualisation of gameplay. 
2. Ammo/Energy economy.
3.  

P.S. What I'm suggesting in this thread is to separate vacuum from companions completely. To make vacuum into this base QoL that you get with or without a companion. So companions would feel like a geniune help and not a nuisance that might take your improtant QoL from you. 


P.P.S. Mic Drop Post :

Spoiler

On 05.11.2017 at 5:54 PM, Azamagon said:

That (along with keeping the Vacuum mod on Sentinels) feels interesting, imo.

How so? It's a mandatory mod slot wasted. A mod slot you could put something else into.

We already had a 6m vacuum for a brief period of time. People hated it. It would still hinder the pets.

Look at it this way. There isn't really an awful lot of difference fundamentally between pets and sentinels. Yes one is a fleshy thing and the other is a floaty thing, but in their root they're just companions. We had an issue in 2016 when 73% of people only used carriers as their companions. After the "vacuum within" update people started using all sentinels, basically spreading these 73% between them. As I said, at their root pets are just companions, thus same logic should be applied. Vacuum simply changes the flow of the gameplay in an incredibly favourable way. That's why a lot of people prefer running it all the time. That's why a lot of people think that losing this flow of the game for a pet that only works half the time isn't worth it. If people weren't forced to lose quality of life for picking certain equipment it would simply free the people's choice.

 Convenience and quality of life should never be a subject of choice in games. What we're debating here is, basically, a "choice" between having only half of your keyboard/controller/whatever when you play or a whole controller. It's not a subject of a "meaningful choice". It's common sense that playing with a whole controller is better. Vacuum is the same thing - that's why people use it so much. 

 Vacuum is a difference between being a space ninja or a blubbering idiot with a broomstick.

On 05.11.2017 at 5:54 PM, Azamagon said:

Same issue could be said of Energy, another hot topic. If we had, say, an innate 1.0 energy regen, then stuff like Zenurik's Energizing Dash or Energy Siphon would be a matter of feeling that you are IMPROVING your 'frames innate energy-reliability, instead of a case of where you feel you have anything at all or not.

Or you could remember the melee combo counter that simply doesn't work without bandaid mods. Bandaids and QoL restrictions =/= meaningful choice. Meaningful choice is when you're allowed to choose whatever companion you want without hindering yourself while actually augmenting your gameplay in an interesting way. There's nothing interesting about being forced to turn your attention away from shooting, fighting, using abilities and actually playing Warframe; when you run out of ammo or energy, and now you have to turn around and pick some tiny spec of the right colour off the floor two meters away just because your already present in the game passive vacuum can't reach there.

 The only meaningful choice that was supposed to be made on this issue should have come from devs years ago when they first introduced parkour 2.0.

 

P.P.P.S. Shorter version of the Mic Drop Post:

Spoiler

16 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

You're missing one very important fact. Vacuum is already in the game and isn't going anywhere. Vacuum now is an integral part of the looting system. The looting system changed. There is no manual looting system in Warframe anymore. Manual pickups are anachronistic at this point and entirely skippable. Really, lack of UV only affects animal companions. Otherwise it changes nothing for the game. The times when manual pickups were fit to a slower-paced "both-feet-on-the-ground" Warframe are gone. It's an outdated mechanic that doesn't fit the modern build of the game.

 

Edited November 12, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[Raynalle]

i don't see this problem, universal vacuum on a farm game with hundred of stuff to pick up and a grind like warframe is simply the basic, why put vacuum only on sentinel or one sentinel, of course people will use only that.

is not lazy is just normal, even defiance a game with a little bit of farm have a variant of vacuum, is not normal walk 70% on the time and grab every single thing on the ground, is not a walking simulator.

the ammo energy problem is weird... what do you actually mean with that?

but yeah pet are pretty much victim here, let's be honest who need a pet who don't do nothing but kill one enemy every 10 second and die all the time, with the most damb AI you can see.

only smeeta kavat is used... and not for fight XD

Edited October 28, 2017 by Raynalle

[Gabbynaru]

Even if universal vacuum was a thing, I'd probably still be using sentinels. Dogs and cats have terrible AI and cannot be passive, so, as useful as that invisibility doggy would be, as long as he keeps attacking enemies on sight like a retard, he will never be taken out of storage again.

Though, still, +1 for universal vacuum. I don't see a problem with it.

[Bobtm]

The real hang-up of all of these arguments on this topic falls to a difference in ideals.

20 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

I'm against vacuum as a mod, since it limits players' companion customization choices.

And this line accurately sums up that divergence in ideology.

Some players (it's safe to say a majority) can't distinguish that Vacuum is not and never has been necessary.  You actually do not miss much in the way of loot by merely paying attention/moving while fighting.  Now to stress this part, it has nothing to do with laziness, or any other silly or contrived thing in any way.  There's nothing wrong with using Vacuum, but that's where that ideal comes into play.

Or in other words, folks mistakenly see Vacuum as required when it simply is not.  However, I'm all for a choice on the matter, but not a pointless/weightless choice.  Having a toggle in the options menu isn't a true or meaningful choice.  It's arbitrary, and doesn't give proper weight towards what Vacuum is as a trait.

It's the same general mindset with players very consistently asking for Augment slots for frames, and consistently being told no.  Players don't want it to increase build diversity, rather the opposite.  Players are simply unwilling to actively make a sacrifice in one area to gain in another.  It's essentially a step towards a more homogenized system or, to use the old term, a rainbow build.

Long story short, Vacuum is something folks can have, but that doesn't mean they get it for free just because it's desired.  Rather the fact that it is desired is why it's not something that should just be automatic.  When designing a game you want players to have to make choices that makes them feel like they're missing out on something.  If that happens, well then you've done something right with the design.

Adding in options like Vacuum mods (Exilus ones) or other things would expand upon the realm of choice in a way that opens extra options.  Rather than giving up on the ideal itself and essentially letting everyone get the benefit they want for free.

So to put it into a single short and sweet sentence?

Universal Vacuum would deteriorate the number of meaningful choices in the game by one.

5 minutes ago, Raynalle said:

ut yeah pet are pretty much victim here, let's be honest who need a pet who don't do nothing but kill one enemy every 10 second and die all the time, with the most damb AI you can see.

only smeeta kavat is used... and not for fight XD

This sounds like something said by someone who hasn't actively made use of Kavats.  While they do have ongoing pathing issues, many of them have been weeded out.  Kubrows need a bump up to bring them to par, but Kavats are objectively superior to all sentinel options when looking at overall combat applications.  When modded properly their deaths are very rare, and generally their main hangups of being stuck are mostly relegated to Defense missions alone now.  Since in other missions you can move far enough away to trigger their teleport to your side.

Folks also over-hyping Smeeta and overlooking Adarza also speaks to this simple lack of giving them a look.  Adarza bolsters personal and teamwide DPS across the board, by a noteworthy amount.  Smeeta is of courses a great companion for what it offers the user, but its uses are both less reliable and more singular overall.

[Raynalle]

6 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

Even if universal vacuum was a thing, I'd probably still be using sentinels. Dogs and cats have terrible AI and cannot be passive, so, as useful as that invisibility doggy would be, as long as he keeps attacking enemies on sight like a retard, he will never be taken out of storage again.

Though, still, +1 for universal vacuum. I don't see a problem with it.

true, even for stealh kill and spy mission dog/cat are just a pain, i understand if those poor pet have cannon or rifle with armor on.

no i'm not joking, who take a pet with no armor or good weapon on the field against 12341435 enemy?

if the pet can have good weapon and if the pet can actually do something other that allert the enemy or die i will take one with me, vacuum or not.

maybe the pet just need a pannel for controll how they act on the field, like aggressive (attack everyone) attack that one, don't do nothing ecc...

like quite on Metal gear 5, simple but efficent

[Ceryk]

You don't need Vacuum. It's not even remotely close to being necessary. If you feel like you can't use other companions because of it, that's your own fault, not the game's. I'd prefer to see the mod removed entirely so this argument goes away.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Ceryk

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 hour ago, Bobtm said:

Some players (it's safe to say a majority) can't distinguish that Vacuum is not and never has been necessary. 

54 minutes ago, Ceryk said:

You don't need Vacuum. It's not even remotely close to being necessary.

Guys, you miss the point. It doesn't matter if it's necessary or not, it's in the game already. And it's so easily accessible that there's absolutely no reason to play without it. The only reason is if you want to play with pets as companions. The thing is, most of the pets don't provide anything sufficient to replace vacuum. 

 Yes there are ways to dance around the ammo pickups issue or the low energy issue, but that's beside the point, when you can easily ignore those issues alltogether if only you'd use sentinels all the time. At this point lack of UV only makes people turn away from animal companions and nothing else. Manual pickups simply serve no purpouse gameplay wise and only limit people's choice of companions (and the Devs' attention to those companions consequently)

 

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 hour ago, Gabbynaru said:

Even if universal vacuum was a thing, I'd probably still be using sentinels. Dogs and cats have terrible AI and cannot be passive, so, as useful as that invisibility doggy would be, as long as he keeps attacking enemies on sight like a retard, he will never be taken out of storage again.

Though, still, +1 for universal vacuum. I don't see a problem with it.

The thing is, Dogs and Cats don't get their AI updated because they're are unpopular - at least I believe that to be the reason.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 hour ago, Raynalle said:

the ammo energy problem is weird... what do you actually mean with that?

I sometimes hear an argument against UV saying that people don't want to "waste" ammo and energy pickups when they have enough ammo\energy for the play but not 100%, so basically if you could gain 25 energy from a pickup and you have 149/150 energy you only get 1 energy while still wasting an energy orb... I know, it's just something that people used to bring up. 

[Bobtm]

Just now, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Yes there are ways to dance around the ammo pickups issue or the low energy issue, but that's beside the point, when you can easily ignore those issues alltogether if only you'd use sentinels all the time. At this point lack of UV only makes people turn away from animal companions and nothing else. Manual pickups simply serve no purpouse gameplay wise and only limit people's choice of companions (and the Devs' attention to those companions consequently)

And all of this is objectively false, and that's the problem.

You, along with most of the playerbase, are glued into the mindset that Vacuum should rightfully be automatic and there's no justification otherwise.

The reason DE themselves is against the idea of universal Vacuum is explicitly because it's not something they want as automatic.  Most looting games don't have an automatic/free Vacuum in them.  Usually any instance of a Vacuum-like effect is something players have to expend a slot of some type to obtain, be it an enchant slot, a gem slot, or (in Warframe) a companion slot.

Autolooting is generally viewed as poor design in a game because the developers of a given game want players to have to pay attention!

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 hour ago, Ceryk said:

If you feel like you can't use other companions because of it, that's your own fault, not the game's. I'd prefer to see the mod removed entirely so this argument goes away.

The thing is, when 73% of the playerbase use vacuum, it's not just my problem anymore. (73% is a number coming from tennocon 2015, I believe, and it was way back when only carriers had vacuum. Yeah, 73% of the playerbase used to only play with carriers)

[mac10smg--Toa_of_Green]

7 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

The thing is, when 73% of the playerbase use vacuum, it's not just my problem anymore. (73% is a number coming from tennocon 2015, I believe, and it was way back when only carriers had vacuum. Yeah, 73% of the playerbase used to only play with carriers)

Oh cool, using statistics from 2 years ago.

Yay....

[shut]

1 hour ago, Bobtm said:

The real hang-up of all of these arguments on this topic falls to a difference in ideals.

And this line accurately sums up that divergence in ideology.

Some players (it's safe to say a majority) can't distinguish that Vacuum is not and never has been necessary.  You actually do not miss much in the way of loot by merely paying attention/moving while fighting.  Now to stress this part, it has nothing to do with laziness, or any other silly or contrived thing in any way.  There's nothing wrong with using Vacuum, but that's where that ideal comes into play.

Or in other words, folks mistakenly see Vacuum as required when it simply is not.  However, I'm all for a choice on the matter, but not a pointless/weightless choice.  Having a toggle in the options menu isn't a true or meaningful choice.  It's arbitrary, and doesn't give proper weight towards what Vacuum is as a trait.

It's the same general mindset with players very consistently asking for Augment slots for frames, and consistently being told no.  Players don't want it to increase build diversity, rather the opposite.  Players are simply unwilling to actively make a sacrifice in one area to gain in another.  It's essentially a step towards a more homogenized system or, to use the old term, a rainbow build.

Long story short, Vacuum is something folks can have, but that doesn't mean they get it for free just because it's desired.  Rather the fact that it is desired is why it's not something that should just be automatic.  When designing a game you want players to have to make choices that makes them feel like they're missing out on something.  If that happens, well then you've done something right with the design.

Adding in options like Vacuum mods (Exilus ones) or other things would expand upon the realm of choice in a way that opens extra options.  Rather than giving up on the ideal itself and essentially letting everyone get the benefit they want for free.

So to put it into a single short and sweet sentence?

Universal Vacuum would deteriorate the number of meaningful choices in the game by one.

I get where you're coming from, and I totally agree on your stance regarding Exilus slots and the suggested Augment slots. The game doesn't need the number of meaningful choices to be reduced.

But, Vacuum is a convenience that's just nice to have in general. It's silly to lock players out of something as basic as an increased loot radius just because they like cats or something.
I'm with you 100% that there should be a meaningful choice between sentinels and cats/dogs. But increased loot radius should not be that choice. Players should be able to choose Vacuum no matter what companion they have-- the "meaningful choice" should have to do with the behaviour of the companion itself (e.g. damage, abilities, survivability, reliability).

Edited October 28, 2017 by SortaRandom

[Raynalle]

10 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

The thing is, Dogs and Cats don't get their AI updated because they're are unpopular - at least I believe that to be the reason.

if they are so useless in serius mission we're you need that little red bubble or blue one for save you're life when bombard or toxic acient who want to use they weapon/tentacle on your butt in the wrong way, the unpopularity is quite normal let's be honest.

if people don't see a reason to use them why they need to be called lazy or in other why, pet or sentinel the only one who kill enemy is you if pet cana at least kill something i guess they will be better, give them some damn weapon and boom, people will like them.

for now they are just a pain in the &#! on the field

[Bobtm]

Just now, SortaRandom said:

I get where you're coming from, and I totally agree on your stance regarding Exilus slots and the suggested Augment slots. The game doesn't need the number of meaningful choices to be reduced.

But, Vacuum is a convenience that's just nice to have in general. It's silly to lock players out of something as basic as an increased loot radius just because they like cats or something.
I'm with you 100% that there should be a meaningful choice between sentinels and cats/dogs. But increased loot radius should not be that choice. Players should be able to choose Vacuum no matter what companion they have-- the "meaningful choice" should have to do with the behaviour of the companion itself (damage, abilities, survivability, reliability, etc).

I do agree with that overall, which is why I'm in favor of having Vacuum Exilus mods or other such options for looting bonuses.

I'm just specifically against an option in the menu for Vacuum.  Not against adding more gameplay options to the table for it.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 minute ago, Bobtm said:

You, along with most of the playerbase, are glued into the mindset that Vacuum should rightfully be automatic and there's no justification otherwise.

1 minute ago, Bobtm said:

The reason DE themselves is against the idea of universal Vacuum is explicitly because it's not something they want as automatic.  Most looting games don't have an automatic/free Vacuum in them.

The problem here is that, as I said, it's already in the game. It's out of DE's or anyone's control at this point. Vacuum is how warframe's looting system works and nothing could be done. People like it and people use it. People like vacuum so much that they're willing to ignore alternative content just to have it. And that's exactly what people do. Warframe doesn't have manual pickup system. It doesn't work the way intended just as channeling doesn't work. It's a redundant complication that people don't want to deal with - that's why players ask for UV so much and so often. And that's why people vote with their actions by using sentinels so much. You can't just tell 73% of the playerbase that they're filthy casuals and they don't know how to play the game properly.

7 minutes ago, Bobtm said:

Usually any instance of a Vacuum-like effect is something players have to expend a slot of some type to obtain, be it an enchant slot, a gem slot, or (in Warframe) a companion slot.

there is no "usually" in this case, unless you'll be able to give me multiple examples of games where vacuum effect is present. 

 I know two games apart from warframe where vacuum-like effect is a part of gameplay and neither of those games locks this QoL behind specific equipment as far as I know. "Nier: Automata" and "Ratchet and Clank". Vacuum is a solution to a particular problem in those games and in Warframe. Vacuum is required when you have too many loot pickups piling up on the floor and picking them all up individually would disrupt the flow of gameplay and turn the whole game into pickup simulator. Yes, there are games where manual item pickups are a satisfying system, but warframe already didn't go that way. We already have vacuum that everybody uses, but it's locked behind specific equipment limiting our companion choise.
 

 

 

[AperoBeltaTwo]

11 minutes ago, mac10smg-ToaOfGreen said:

Oh cool, using statistics from 2 years ago.

Yay....

You think situation changed much since then? Oh right, we're getting our first sentinel sooner now...

Edited October 28, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[mac10smg--Toa_of_Green]

Just now, AperoBeltaTwo said:

You think situation changed much since then?

No, just pointing out that you're using a statistic from 2 years ago. Accuracy is everything.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

Just now, mac10smg-ToaOfGreen said:

No, just pointing out that you're using a statistic from 2 years ago. Accuracy is everything.

Fair enough. That's why I mentioned it's from 2015.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

25 minutes ago, Bobtm said:

Autolooting is generally viewed as poor design in a game because the developers of a given game want players to have to pay attention!

Pay attention to what exactly? That's the main question here. Manual pickups take players' attention away from the gameplay and movement and force them to pay attention to hundreds of tiny tedious item pickups. People don't like that so they use vacuum and ignore this problem altogether. Manual pickups system isn't working if you have a way to completely avoid it.

 

Edited October 28, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[DeltaPangaea]

22 minutes ago, Bobtm said:

Autolooting is generally viewed as poor design in a game because the developers of a given game want players to have to pay attention!

I pay attention. I pay attention to all my pickup texts, and to the fighting. Y'know, the actual gameplay? Having to walk over to something isn't 'enriching' or 'valuable' to the game experience, it's a DISTRACTION.

Having to run around picking everything up myself in a hectic fight, when things might not be very visible in the first place, and things like credits and ammo aren't marked on the map if you have loot radar on...

Seriously, just gimmie the vacuum so I can focus on playing the game, not 'picking things up'

And really, if you pick up ammo or energy and don't get it all because you're capped out... then you're at full of that thing. You don't NEED more. If your energy is so precious to you that you get upset over losing some to your max energy, why are you basically at maximum anyway? Spend it.

I will concede that Magnetic procs are a pain in the butt, yes. This could be solved by having the vacuum effect just disabled during them. Easy fix.

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

1 hour ago, Bobtm said:

I'm just specifically against an option in the menu for Vacuum. 

Why? Mag has optional vacuum. Give Mag's passive to all frames as a "auxiliary passive" menu option...then give Mag a new passive.

-Delete the Vacuum mod

-Buff sentinel survivability 

-Fix companion AI

I don't see the issue. 

Edited October 28, 2017 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[TotallyLagging]

i still don't quite understand how some people dislike vacuum so much that they'd rather have it removed when most people suggesting it wants is AS AN OPTION.

 

OPTION. SOMETHING THAT YOU CAN JUST DISABLE/ENABLE WHENEVER YOU WANT.

 

like i get that some pro-vacuum arguments can be ridiculous at times and it's not necessary for the game but it having is super nice and convenient

 

and it would literally do nothing but good for DE. pets would be more popular, they could do more pet content and sell more skins and armor for pets since more people use them. univac posts would stop showing up, the people that dislike vacuum could just disable it, the people that do can finally use pets, it's a win-win-win situation. literally nothing bad would come out of it. 

Edited October 28, 2017 by TotallyLagging

[LuckyCharm]

For: 

Titania cant have sentinals in razorwing so she needs it

My doggo is getting brain damage staying in the freezer for so long

My cat is giving me "the look"

Carrier prime is getting too fat eating all the things while my pets all starve.

PETA would approve.

 

Against:

The 11th commandment - thou shalt not enjoy shooters.

"The sentinals against universal vaccuum" companion rights group campaign has threatened to support the grineer instead

Because the cost of microchipping pets is expensive

[Lost_Cartographer]

I don't know why people are asking for universal vacuum to be an option - I mean if it just becomes a fact of Warframe life, only stubborn people trying to prove a point would turn it off.

Vacuum is far from necessary to play the game, but no one's going to complain about it becoming a universal thing except those who dug into the "against" side.