Change Ember

[Sasuda]

3 hours ago, (PS4)whoistimjones said:

Well considering I was the [I assume you meant: one] that started that line of conversation, its actually you and him that need to find the context. The thread is about 4th abilities, mainly Ember. Ember can use her 4th WHILE shooting, Ash cannot. If you ignore that context or try to change that, its on you, its you who didn't make sense.

There are many frames that can use their 4th while shooting. I'm not ignoring the context of the thread, I am engaging with posts that aren't strictly Ember's 4th vs. Mesa, Ash, Excalibur and Saryn's because things other than 4th abilities factor into the discussion. Taking a frames 4th ability out of the context of their kits, weapon use and what they actually play like is why Ember's 4th doesn't need a nerf. What context are we missing? Not to mention all of the other frames not included. If you're saying Ember's 4th has to operate the same as Ash's then no, not all frames have to operate the same. Bladestorm is pretty junk in my opinion (I never saw the need for the nerf), speaking of 4th abilities that need to be changed. Also Zephyr's Tornadoes, Mag's 4th, Wukong's 4th all could use changes more than WoF.  Again like I said WoF could use some changes but not just a nerf. You have also not suggested any changes, you complained she kills too easy with her 4th compared to 4 other frames. Who actually under many circumstances can kill with their 4th easier than Ember. Especially Excalibur and Mesa.

[Andaius]

2 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

The most important part is probably that those abilitys remain usefull for Cc and damage irrelevant of your build.

The way i see it ember can be played in 3 range categorys: low, mid and high.

A low range build would be centered around keeping up Accelerant with narrow mindet, fire blast remains usefull due to its static range and duration base.

Mid range ember is what i play for melee, WoF keeps enemys bussy in melee range, accelerant is strong and fireball can be used to Cc enemys from afar.

High range ember is her meta, accelerant csn be used, WoF performs at its best and fire blast is relyable Cc on that setup.

That kinda usefull kit is pretty much unique to her...

Well, I'd say max range WoF build will get her in trouble more often then not. For the simple reason that WoF will only hit 5 random targets in range. With massive range you could be randomly targeting people far away while closer guys murder you. My personal favorite build for her is the mid range, or shotgun range 20-25 meters. WoF only hit people within danger range to you. Your Accelerant I think actually is further range by  a little. I think I'm run with a 145% range with only stretch for extending range. I mainly focus on str and  duration, with efficiency coming up 3rd. Since WoF is balanced in that the more power str you want to pump in the more it will cost thanks to it needing duration and efficiency to effect it's cost.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Andaius

[ugoooo]

I wonder if you ever played with an Ember at all. You don't need to build a prime. Ember is a good frame because

- She has a good cc and buff. 

- She is a caster frame with cheap abilities unlike Mag.

Her damage falls of shortly in sorties but her cc remains so you can use weapons with heat damage but you can't stop jumping for every second. Most of the enemies still 1 shot you.

She is fun though since her abilities doesn't require you to do spamfest 1 ability and works very well altogether. Does she needs a nerf? Absolutely not, does she needs a buff? Just a little for her survivity. 

[Andaius]

9 minutes ago, ugoyumbenugoyum said:

I wonder if you ever played with an Ember at all. You don't need to build a prime. Ember is a good frame because

- She has a good cc and buff. 

- She is a caster frame with cheap abilities unlike Mag.

Her damage falls of shortly in sorties but her cc remains so you can use weapons with heat damage but you can't stop jumping for every second. Most of the enemies still 1 shot you.

She is fun though since her abilities doesn't require you to do spamfest 1 ability and works very well altogether. Does she needs a nerf? Absolutely not, does she needs a buff? Just a little for her survivity. 

Mag can be very cheap if you go for max efficiency and max str. My personal favorite build has only something like 16% duration! Her major problem in the caster area is her very small for a caster energy pool.

[ugoooo]

1 hour ago, Andaius said:

Mag can be very cheap if you go for max efficiency and max str. My personal favorite build has only something like 16% duration! Her major problem in the caster area is her very small for a caster energy pool.

So you don't use her 3, you don't use her 2nd for defense just spamming 2 and 4 then with energy pool like 150 at rank 30. Cool :) Tell me how this is efficient? I love Mag's kit but you need a babysitter frame to make her useful. She is my first and most used frame in 500 h of playtime with basic and her prime but she feels clunky as hell.

[BornWithTeeth]

On 21/11/2017 at 3:01 AM, Neptlude said:

Not a nerf but she still need a rework. She is boring to play in her regular build.

 

-Give her "Heat" system

The more she uses her abilities it creates heat counts that increases her overall fire damages

 

- Remove her fireball

Replace it with a flame thrower ability that gets stronger the longer you use it as it builds up heat. Maybe let it use pistol mods too....

 

-Accelerant is okay I guess

 

-Change 3rd Skill from fireblast to World on fire.

Cover the area with world on fire. This will make world on fire a stationary and defensive ability. lower overall damage a bit but adds fire quake aug innate.

 

-Give her a salted Flame Great sword

Her 4th ability is now a salted great sword, and when using charge attack unleashes all stored up heat creating a huge fireblast on steroids...  

 

NOT EVERY BLOODY 'FRAME IN THE GAME NEEDS TO BE A NIDUS CLONE

 

For the love of God, when will people let go of the profoundly toxic idea that the best way for a 'frame to work is to build stacks and live in a power fortress.

[Andaius]

9 minutes ago, ugoyumbenugoyum said:

So you don't use her 3, you don't use her 2nd for defense just spamming 2 and 4 then with energy pool like 150 at rank 30. Cool :) Tell me how this is efficient? I love Mag's kit but you need a babysitter frame to make her useful. She is my first and most used frame in 500 h of playtime with basic and her prime but she feels clunky as hell.

I use magnitize like a a mine. put it on some one Pumps damage into it for like 6 seconds and it blows up everyone close by. Polarize works fine it just doesn't cover half the map like a MP does, with a huge duration build. You can pull people from half the map away, and Crush has a huge area of effect also. So yeah, your points are largely not valid. Having Bubbles last forever is more trouble then it's worth for some play styles. Dropping on down and wiping out a mob is good enough. I personally kinda find hiding in bubbles a somewhat cheesy tactic. After all your "hiding" in a swirling hail of bullets.

[Terrornaut]

6 hours ago, Andaius said:

Well, I'd say max range WoF build will get her in trouble more often then not. For the simple reason that WoF will only hit 5 random targets in range. With massive range you could be randomly targeting people far away while closer guys murder you. My personal favorite build for her is the mid range, or shotgun range 20-25 meters. WoF only hit people within danger range to you. Your Accelerant I think actually is further range by  a little. I think I'm run with a 145% range with only stretch for extending range. I mainly focus on str and  duration, with efficiency coming up 3rd. Since WoF is balanced in that the more power str you want to pump in the more it will cost thanks to it needing duration and efficiency to effect it's cost.

This is it pretty much yeah.

And yeah, 145 is pretty much perfect functional range I've found.

Also, with more power strength, WoF and other abilities become more efficient in a way.  People that build for duration and efficiency WoF accomplish nothing with it, even though they don't lose power.  With Power on WoF, even if duration is low and efficiency is not great, it will kill fast enough, constantly and absolutely reliably heat proc, that you don't necessarily have to run it all the time.  Also, as Ember, really you should be killing constantly and fast at all levels, low and sortie, that you should basically be fine off of energy orbs.  Ember doesn't not need energy spam frames.

[topsickrat]

10 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

NOT EVERY BLOODY 'FRAME IN THE GAME NEEDS TO BE A NIDUS CLONE

 

For the love of God, when will people let go of the profoundly toxic idea that the best way for a 'frame to work is to build stacks and live in a power fortress.

like why would it be toxic? don't make it OP and easily maintainable and that's all.
Stacking can have a lot of options, like providing no benefits until stacks reach 100%, then empowering the next skill you use, on that use all the stacks should be consumed. You can balance with the rate of acquiring stacks and scale of empowering. Also could play around the consumption, e.g. empowered 1. skill consumes 40 stacks, 2. 60 stacks, etc.
Other way is providing good benefits, but losing stacks fast, and also gaining disadvantages. Personally for Ember I would see something like this, as I also wrote in my comment:
heat stacks provide ability str, but continuously losing stacks over time, even affecting for example WoF rate of explosions, but that would also consume stacks independently from the basic time-based exhaustion. It could already be energy consuming and hard to reach max stacks, not just to maintain it. At the same time stacks could decrease energy efficiency, so it is always a choice whether to spam gaining stacks or not.

[DeltaPangaea]

5 minutes ago, topsickrat said:

like why would it be toxic? don't make it OP and easily maintainable and that's all.
Stacking can have a lot of options, like providing no benefits until stacks reach 100%, then empowering the next skill you use, on that use all the stacks should be consumed. You can balance with the rate of acquiring stacks and scale of empowering. Also could play around the consumption, e.g. empowered 1. skill consumes 40 stacks, 2. 60 stacks, etc.
Other way is providing good benefits, but losing stacks fast, and also gaining disadvantages. Personally for Ember I would see something like this, as I also wrote in my comment:
heat stacks provide ability str, but continuously losing stacks over time, even affecting for example WoF rate of explosions, but that would also consume stacks independently from the basic time-based exhaustion. It could already be energy consuming and hard to reach max stacks, not just to maintain it. At the same time stacks could decrease energy efficiency, so it is always a choice whether to spam gaining stacks or not.

Honestly I prefer not having to constantly juggle what I'm trying to do.

This is why I hate playing Volt now. I can't just slap a crate, that'll use my damage bonus. I gotta make sure to not waste it on something useless.

Even worse is that this stackjuggling is likely why Shock has such a GODDAMN PATHETIC damage base.

[topsickrat]

39 minutes ago, DeltaPangaea said:

Honestly I prefer not having to constantly juggle what I'm trying to do.

This is why I hate playing Volt now. I can't just slap a crate, that'll use my damage bonus. I gotta make sure to not waste it on something useless.

Even worse is that this stackjuggling is likely why Shock has such a GODDAMN PATHETIC damage base.

I see your point, but we can safely evade this by having a fast, fodder-cleaning first skill out of the stackgame, or making the stacks used upon only when u hold the specific skills' button, not on pressing.
the goddamn pathetic damage base is balance issue, it's like why dakra prime is pathetic compared to... well anything else, really

Edited November 23, 2017 by topsickrat
typo

[Andaius]

11 hours ago, Terrornaut said:

This is it pretty much yeah.

And yeah, 145 is pretty much perfect functional range I've found.

Also, with more power strength, WoF and other abilities become more efficient in a way.  People that build for duration and efficiency WoF accomplish nothing with it, even though they don't lose power.  With Power on WoF, even if duration is low and efficiency is not great, it will kill fast enough, constantly and absolutely reliably heat proc, that you don't necessarily have to run it all the time.  Also, as Ember, really you should be killing constantly and fast at all levels, low and sortie, that you should basically be fine off of energy orbs.  Ember doesn't not need energy spam frames.

Indeed, However with too much Str. You have to be somewhat mindful of your power and I some times forget to watch the power pool when fighting. So I go for a more efficient build to keep it "always on" with a drain of like 2 a second or so.

[(PSN)whoistimjones]

20 hours ago, Sasuda said:

There are many frames that can use their 4th while shooting. I'm not ignoring the context of the thread, I am engaging with posts that aren't strictly Ember's 4th vs. Mesa, Ash, Excalibur and Saryn's because things other than 4th abilities factor into the discussion. Taking a frames 4th ability out of the context of their kits, weapon use and what they actually play like is why Ember's 4th doesn't need a nerf. What context are we missing? Not to mention all of the other frames not included. If you're saying Ember's 4th has to operate the same as Ash's then no, not all frames have to operate the same. Bladestorm is pretty junk in my opinion (I never saw the need for the nerf), speaking of 4th abilities that need to be changed. Also Zephyr's Tornadoes, Mag's 4th, Wukong's 4th all could use changes more than WoF.  Again like I said WoF could use some changes but not just a nerf. You have also not suggested any changes, you complained she kills too easy with her 4th compared to 4 other frames. Who actually under many circumstances can kill with their 4th easier than Ember. Especially Excalibur and Mesa.

Just because I don't give suggestions on how her 4th should be changed doesn't mean me bringing light to the subject doesn't help at all. You talk about her 4th with other variables yet none of that mattered when all these other frames were reworked. Saryn didn't scale too much more than Ember and she was changed. MyBoltor Prime outclasses every frame being mentioned and yet they all got touched. Just because a frame does something better than her doesn't mean she isnt cheap, lame and boring. As I said, she's all I see on PoE.Yes those frames kills are "easier" but they also require more effort and resource.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

Everyones so focused on trying limit or nerf wof rather than expanding it to do more and making it more interesting...warframe powers are so bland, borderline boring, and all anyone has to say is, "make it do less than it already does"

[Sasuda]

5 hours ago, (PS4)whoistimjones said:

Just because I don't give suggestions on how her 4th should be changed doesn't mean me bringing light to the subject doesn't help at all. You talk about her 4th with other variables yet none of that mattered when all these other frames were reworked. Saryn didn't scale too much more than Ember and she was changed. MyBoltor Prime outclasses every frame being mentioned and yet they all got touched. Just because a frame does something better than her doesn't mean she isnt cheap, lame and boring. As I said, she's all I see on PoE.Yes those frames kills are "easier" but they also require more effort and resource.

I never said bringing up the subject doesn't help, but it doesn't help when you bring up the subject if you don't understand the subject and make complaints and comparisons that have such a narrow scope and aren't taking into account other viewpoints and considerations, and aren't for the good of players who use her. It doesn't help when the same subject has been brought up many times before and have largely been shown to be complaining and a lack of understanding. That's why you see posts about 'not another Ember is too strong please nerf'. It's not as if you're bringing up something new.
"none of that mattered when all these other frames were reworked" ? Saryn? Sayrn's changes actually give her more capacity to kill at higher level, and her 1st was made extremely good. Of course other variables mattered, and those variables are why Saryn still could use some work. Her 4th was actually specifically changed to the way it is because it takes into consideration her other abilities. It happened around the time when synergy was the hot topic and it was highly demanded, it showed some good things but Saryn herself was left in the early stages of figuring it out. Her energy economy is pretty bad. Her synergy too is forced to use her 4th for anything beyond synergy nukes, but that's why her 4th could use tweaks. Asking for Ember's 4th to have these problems will leave us needing changes for both her 4th and Saryn's 4th. That's why it's a poor comparison, same with Ash. Saryn's changes ended up more side-grading her into a bit of a slightly different role as well.
Sure you're Boltor Prime outclasses some abilities on their own (including Embers), but any Saryn who uses her 1 and a regular Boltor will easily out class your Boltor. But it comes nowhere imaginably close to outclassing Peacemaker for sure, with the exception of some specific run and gun uses. And that's the thing it's under certain conditions. Because under certain conditions Ash's Bladestorm is way better than Embers WoF, same with Sayrn and Mesa. That's why the conversation can't exclude other circumstances and Warframes powers as a whole.
"she isnt cheap, lame and boring. As I said, she's all I see on PoE" Well I'm sorry that's all you see on PoE, but there's actually a lot more out there for those of us somehow managing not to run into Embers or having Ember's being all we see. A Warframe's general popularity is a bad reason for a nerf, if you're going that route you're going to have to explain it well. As for being cheap, lame, and boring there are many who disagree. You're free to hold that opinion, but don't expect a nerf for it. Some players find her a lot of fun, that's part of why she's popular. 
You haven't been showing any sign of wanting to improve Ember as a whole, that's why it's complaining. You're complaining to have her 4th nerfed. Not for it to be more interesting or fun. If you intend otherwise you have yet to show that intention. So far though it seems as long as Ember's 4th was nerfed you'd be satisfied because you don't like her. If you intend otherwise then show please some initiative in that direction. It's not like I think WoF should never be changed or tweaked, it's that when it gets done it should be done well and with good reason. The reasoning of these other frames got changes and now they're different or "it's too easy to get kills" has been explained that it's not the case. There's been many threads and forums which have set out to do much better, take a look at some and support an idea you like or suggest a new one.

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

An exalted flamethrower will be cool😊

[Justice_Ember]

Let's be completely clear about something, claiming to understand a Warframe and it's underlying issues by simply "having them on the squad" is a weak AF argument. Not even someone with 3 or 4 Forma on their Frame can expertly say which tweak to their WF's kit would improve it. 

Let's be clear, there are issues with Ember, and a lot of "old" frames, but you, OP, didn't get it, try formaing a Frame more than 10 times and you'll experience a new understanding of how you level up, how to synergize the skills and a lot more about them.

Her problem is not WoF, is not being a squishy frame or being a caster, most importantly her problem is more a blessing in disguise and it is how weapon dependent she is. 

TL;DR OP knows nothing, Ember is not fine but WoF is not her problem. Git Gud.

[Terrornaut]

14 hours ago, Sasuda said:

. . .

That's why it's a poor comparison, same with Ash. Saryn's changes ended up more side-grading her into a bit of a slightly different role as well.
Sure you're Boltor Prime outclasses some abilities on their own (including Embers), but any Saryn who uses her 1 and a regular Boltor will easily out class your Boltor. But it comes nowhere imaginably close to outclassing Peacemaker for sure, with the exception of some specific run and gun uses. And that's the thing it's under certain conditions. Because under certain conditions Ash's Bladestorm is way better than Embers WoF, same with Sayrn and Mesa. That's why the conversation can't exclude other circumstances and Warframes powers as a whole.
"she isnt cheap, lame and boring. As I said, she's all I see on PoE" Well I'm sorry that's all you see on PoE, but there's actually a lot more out there for those of us somehow managing not to run into Embers or having Ember's being all we see. A Warframe's general popularity is a bad reason for a nerf, if you're going that route you're going to have to explain it well. As for being cheap, lame, and boring there are many who disagree. You're free to hold that opinion, but don't expect a nerf for it. Some players find her a lot of fun, that's part of why she's popular. 
. . . 

This person has great promise!  Sasuda!

1 hour ago, zzzNitro said:

Let's be completely clear about something, claiming to understand a Warframe and it's underlying issues by simply "having them on the squad" is a weak AF argument. Not even someone with 3 or 4 Forma on their Frame can expertly say which tweak to their WF's kit would improve it. 

Let's be clear, there are issues with Ember, and a lot of "old" frames, but you, OP, didn't get it, try formaing a Frame more than 10 times and you'll experience a new understanding of how you level up, how to synergize the skills and a lot more about them.

Her problem is not WoF, is not being a squishy frame or being a caster, most importantly her problem is more a blessing in disguise and it is how weapon dependent she is. 

TL;DR OP knows nothing, Ember is not fine but WoF is not her problem. Git Gud.

I just want to play with a squad of Embers one day that (actually) know how to work with Ember's strengths and weaknesses and see what happens ;_;

A squad with CP and GP <_<

Anyway, generally agree, though, don't really have to forma more than 10 times. It may take some people 10 times to forma and experiment, but, can also take less.  Though, as always, and as Sasuda mentioned kind of, there are always more factors to consider.

[Justice_Ember]

51 minutes ago, Terrornaut said:

This person has great promise!  Sasuda!

I just want to play with a squad of Embers one day that (actually) know how to work with Ember's strengths and weaknesses and see what happens ;_;

A squad with CP and GP <_<

Anyway, generally agree, though, don't really have to forma more than 10 times. It may take some people 10 times to forma and experiment, but, can also take less.  Though, as always, and as Sasuda mentioned kind of, there are always more factors to consider.

Yeah, maybe 10 is a bit too much, but I can honestly say that I started having small epiphanies about Ember at around the 12th forma, it's the process of constantly being underleveled and often using 1 or 2 weapons that forces you to find new ways. 

I'd say that two accelerant Embers, plus a Harrow and a Saryn are the most deadliest squad for long runs without camping I prefer GP over CP any day of the week tho.

[SenorClipClop]

On 11/20/2017 at 11:05 PM, topsickrat said:

make wof explosions do lower flat dmg and low % max health based dmg

Not % max Health-based damage, that would turn her into an AFK machine. Make it based on a percent of the enemy's current Health. That way it hits harder initially (while still helping her scaling) but has diminishing returns if you're not actively attacking the effected enemies. After a time the base damage eclispses the diminishing Health damage to passively wear down grunt enemies, but her effortless nuke potential is reduced. She could still nuke, she'd just need to put in effort like everybody else.

Edited November 24, 2017 by SenorClipClop

[(PSN)whoistimjones]

5 hours ago, zzzNitro said:

Let's be completely clear about something, claiming to understand a Warframe and it's underlying issues by simply "having them on the squad" is a weak AF argument. Not even someone with 3 or 4 Forma on their Frame can expertly say which tweak to their WF's kit would improve it. 

Let's be clear, there are issues with Ember, and a lot of "old" frames, but you, OP, didn't get it, try formaing a Frame more than 10 times and you'll experience a new understanding of how you level up, how to synergize the skills and a lot more about them.

Her problem is not WoF, is not being a squishy frame or being a caster, most importantly her problem is more a blessing in disguise and it is how weapon dependent she is. 

TL;DR OP knows nothing, Ember is not fine but WoF is not her problem. Git Gud.

Git gud? Who puts 10 forma on anything and for what reason? How does putting 10 forma in to a frame give me any more knowledge than the first one? Why do you need 10 forma on anything in the first place, nothing I have ever used needs any more than 5 and thats with all max mods. Redundant try-hard much? And where did you read me saying anything about her being on the team means I know everything?

Your entire response is bunch of nothing. Her 4th suffers from the same things that people complained about with Mesa, Saryn, Excalibur and Ash. All were changed because of EFFORT<kill rate. When Ash slaughtered rooms with bladestorm, people complained about its ease. Mesa, same thing, slaughterer with low effort/interactivity. Ember activates her 4th and just waits for them to come in range. "high level" Mesa didn't scale high either, still changed.

[Justice_Ember]

33 minutes ago, (PS4)whoistimjones said:

How does putting 10 forma in to a frame give me any more knowledge than the first one?

By repeating the process of starting at level 0 and "growing" to level 30 each time you get a better grasp at the synergy of the kit, unless of course you level up by exploit, in which case you learn nothing by repeatition.

39 minutes ago, (PS4)whoistimjones said:

Your entire response is bunch of nothing. Her 4th suffers from the same things that people complained about with Mesa, Saryn, Excalibur and Ash.

Hardly. First of all, the 5 target cap is for the first tick, from then on it falls to 3, similar to reworked Peacemaker, without Accelerant HEAT damage falls off rather quickly, similar to how much Saryn and Ash need to synergize their powers. 

51 minutes ago, (PS4)whoistimjones said:

"high level" Mesa didn't scale high either, still changed

Just to humor your train of thought, how fast would you say you could wipe a wave on Draco(pre-nerf) with Mesa? Now compare that to Ember.

 

If you want to hear from people that do understand the underlying problems with Ember I suggest you use the search function on this forum. And just to leave a somewhat useful comment on WoF, I'd be ok with a mechanic similar to Oberon's Renewal.

[traybong111]

1 hour ago, (PS4)whoistimjones said:

Git gud? Who puts 10 forma on anything and for what reason? How does putting 10 forma in to a frame give me any more knowledge than the first one? Why do you need 10 forma on anything in the first place, nothing I have ever used needs any more than 5 and thats with all max mods. Redundant try-hard much? And where did you read me saying anything about her being on the team means I know everything?

Your entire response is bunch of nothing. Her 4th suffers from the same things that people complained about with Mesa, Saryn, Excalibur and Ash. All were changed because of EFFORT<kill rate. When Ash slaughtered rooms with bladestorm, people complained about its ease. Mesa, same thing, slaughterer with low effort/interactivity. Ember activates her 4th and just waits for them to come in range. "high level" Mesa didn't scale high either, still changed.

I officially declare if you haven't 100-forma'd a frame you don't know anything about it. Git gud and git farming son. /s 

I have a feeling you know about Ash, Mag and Saryn's nerfs by hearing other people meme'ing about it but have no firsthand experience with the magnitude of the nuke got them nerfed. We're talking about frames that, in order, could literally hog an entire maps' mobs because enemies being humped by BS Ash was invincible to all other source of damage and Ash was also invincible the whole time; the frame singlehandedly responsible for DE conjuring up Nullifier, who could nuke the entire map 3 hours into T4S with a button press if it contained a single Shield Osprey; the frame largely (but not solely) responsible for inverse duration scaling which now prevents frames like Ember and Oberon from having a dump stat. Oh and Mesa's old 4 was literally a rapidfire 360 degree turret with a fixed range of 50 meters and no target limit. Comparing those abilities to WoF is quite frankly an insult to such shameless creamy nukes. (And to be fair Mesa and Saryn are still capable of wiping the map with much more ease than Ember.) 

Your talk of effort is quite laughable. WoF is a soft-CC at higher levels--I honestly wouldn't mind WoF just losing its explosion damage and became a pure heat-proc CC (at a lowered channeled cost & higher target cap, of course). If Ember wants to deal any amount of damage at levels past 70 she'd better be parkouring and target prioritizing like a madman. Because at low levels where WoF can kill things fast, nearly all frames with AoE ability would meet your misguided "EFFORT<kill rate" quota for nerf.

And goshdarnit if I put 4 Forma on my Oberon Prime, I expect his max efficiency Natural Talent Reckoning spam to sleepwalk me through the thirteen millionth Kuva Siphon mission to roll the godly Riven my precious Grinlok deserves. 

Because swEET MERCIFUL CHRIST IT'S A DMR SLOWER THAN MOST SNIPER RIFLES AND IT NEEDS POINT STRIKE, THE AUGMENT, AND A 220% CRIT CHANCE RIVEN TO ACHIEVE 100% CRIT. DO YOU KNOW JUST HOW MANY BABY ANIMALS I WOULD KILL TO HAVE GRINLOK'S CRIT CHANCE AT 20S.

WHERE IS MY GRINLOK WRAITH DE.

WHERE IS IT. 

Edited November 24, 2017 by traybong111
GRAMMAR WHERE IS IT

[Ravenwulfe]

Threads like these always amuse me. This assumption that frames are suppose to be balanced against each other, and then picking a power, just because they are low level farmers, at best, that might do ten waves in a defense before leaving. I don't even have an Ember, nor have I ever leveled one up and I have never once been bothered by Ember or Ember Prime using World on Fire. I welcome it especially when farming or leveling.

 

If your ePeen is so tiny that you can't handle someone having the highest damage over you for using their warframe, as intended, may I suggest you go back to playing another game that allows you to do your usual bragging of 360 no scope lies.

[Ardhanarishvara]

I've only read the first page and the start of the second, so lemme know if this has already been discussed, but the last time I was in an Ember thread, some things became known to me regarding her playstyle, and I have since revised my opinions on her. I still think she could be more, but I no longer think she needs to be completely redone from the ground up.

For this post, I'll focus on her 4th ability, the crux of this thread: World on Fire.

The primary argument against it is that it is, essentially, a press 4 to win button, when many other 'frames had their press 4 to win buttons altered or changed or removed.

The thing to note when bringing up the whole "press 4 to win" reasoning is that, for some of these 'frames mentioned, the button or ability hasn't actually been removed, just changed somewhat. Saryn's 4 is still a radial DoT. Excalibur's 4 didn't disappear, but rather it was altered a couple of times and eventually made into his 3. Ash and Mesa are by far the most prominent examples. Frost's 4 still exists, Rhino's 4 got even better by merging Rhino Blast into Stomp, Mag's 4 is still the worst of the bunch because it does nothing without an augment that, even then, needs at least 2 casts + polarize to be useful.

It's also worth noting that WoF now is fundamentally different from how it started out. I'm not sure if you're aware, but World on Fire originally affected everyone equally and was a duration-based ability. It's already received more than one rework. So it's important to understand that, whatever your gripes, it's essentially beating a dead horse.

WoF has a limit of five targets at any given time, which is completely different from how Equinox's 4 works. In fact, Equinox's 4 is like a weaker version of how Ember's 4 used to be, with the added limitation that it needs to be charged up and decasted to reveal its true strength. In comparison, WoF is essentially just a minor CC in the panic state plus LOCKED IN damage for 5 enemies. Once those 5 targets are picked, unless they leave Ember's radius, they will continue to burn until they die and a new enemy is picked, for as long as the ability is channeled. This means that WoF actualy gets weaker the more range you place on it, as you have no control over who it might be targeting or when unless you move entire tiles away. It may very well pick the Nox that could tank it all day instead of the more lightly-armoured grineer like Scorpions or Butchers that it's more effective for.

This information is especially useful to understand regarding her augment, Fire Quake. When I first made my argument against Ember, it was essentially that it was random who was going to be knocked down and when. This isn't so much the case, as it is that you are relinquishing more and more control as you add more range. For what? For Accelerant? Which is going to be more useful, a couple seconds of wide area stagger plus damage boost for a single element, or medium-small area knockdown of predicted enemies in an area around you? It was described to me that, with this knowledge, Ember essentially becomes more of a brawler than a caster. Personally I find this to be a failing of her current design that she's more effective in close range than in long range, as squishy as she is, and given that DE sees her as a caster, but it is doubtless effective.

As for her usage against armoured enemies, it's important to note that she is mostly designed for fighting Infested. She does the most damage against them. They like to get in close. However, that's not to say that she's completely helpless. Do keep in mind that Cloned Flesh is weak to heat, yeah? Heat and Viral. To the trick here is to use melee. Daggers and Rapiers have stances that can force finishers, as do a couple other weapons like staves I believe. Flash Accelerant can boost heat onto them, stun nearby enemies and make them weaker to heat. There's also the ever-lovely Naramon, which you can use dashes to open enemies up to finishers. Permanently.

Now you might be wondering, why in the hell would you use Naramon for a heavy caster like Ember, someone who relies on her 4 oh so much?

Well, that's because she doesn't need to rely on her 4 oh so much. And because of her passive. When on fire, she gains +10 energy per second for each second on fire, and +35% power strength bonus. Well, that's kinda useless right? The number of environments that set you on fire are kinda limited, and the number of enemies are limited to the faction she tends to perform worst against.

JAVLOK. Built for status chance and status duration. Shoot yourself in the foot with it. With Hunter Track and Continuous Misery, you can get 14 seconds of fire. That's 140 energy in 14 seconds. A good riven can put that up even higher. Don't even bother using it for damage, it's a stat stick. Jat Kusar is where it's at for the damage. Dem crits. Dem forced slash procs due to the combos. So much heat that you can either build into radiation for armoured enemies or just use with brute force with her Accelerant. Naramon opening up the heavies as needed, but let's be honest... It's not needed, even up to level 130. A Radiation-built Jat Kusar, boosted by Flash Accelerant, will utterly demolish even crowds of heavies.

But then again this is just one strategy.

Edited November 25, 2017 by Ardhanarishvara