Inexperienced Player Friendly Frames Shouldn't Be 1 Trick Ponies

[ugoooo]

Hello,

It's a fact that some new players who reached MR 8 or around most likely wanting to be powerful and build a loadout which can take them into things like sorties and etc. So most of them will pick either some YouTubers favorites like Ash or Loki, or they will go after something they see and amazed by it like how Ember and Equinox performs on low levels, or pick some tanks to be more durable in the fights. This is all understandable and nice experience for a player. 

But some warframes doesn't allow players to improve themselves and ruin the experience for other players. 

Speaking of which, for example Mesa with peacemaker build. When I see them in my team I just quit the party. Not because they can do nice damage, (mostly I play as a support) but because as in my experiences they will not contribute the team's effort on the mission or revive teammates. They will just find a place with numerous enemies and press 4 and click brainlessly. Why they should bother with some dude bleeding out when they dish %60 of damage? This is a false sense of being a good player. So there should be some challenges for them as well so they can try to co-operate with other players. This is not a problem in low levels but this is a fun ruining factor which causes experienced players to be more elitists and leave whenever they see an MR 8 or so.

I don't mind if a player ruins a spy sortie due to some mistake but I mind a player in a co-op game behaves careless due to her/his false sense of success. For example in a survival mission doesn't paying attention to life support level ,just spamming 1 ability.

The fix is quite simple to be fair. Do Not make brainlessly easy high hitting abilities. Like peacemaker or make them scaled poorly without doing some tricks like World on Fire. 

Oberon is a great Warframe and can outsupport and outdps most of the frames in the high levels but he is hard to learn and master so noone plays with him in lower MRs. On the other hand Mesa is a great Warframe with nice gun jamming cc and overpowered damage but easy as hell. This has to be in reverse I believe.

Thanks for reading and sorry for this is a bit of a rant.

Cheers!

Edit: This isn't a buff this and nerf that thread. All I am saying is easy to play Warframes shouldn't be as much as rewarding as hard to play Warframes or include a different mechanics to make them viable in high levels so people can learn how to play correctly as they progress more.

Edited November 22, 2017 by ugoyumbenugoyum

[krc473]

3 minutes ago, ugoyumbenugoyum said:

Thanks for reading and sorry for this is a bit of a rant.

So, nerf Mesa.

Buff Oberon?

That is what I took from this.

[Andaius]

1 minute ago, krc473 said:

So, nerf Mesa.

Buff Oberon?

That is what I took from this.

Don't play pub? is what it also sounds like. Because they seemed to just cherry picked out Mesa here. The problem seems to be rogue mavericks that play solo while in a team.

[ugoooo]

Absolutely not, 

59 minutes ago, krc473 said:

So, nerf Mesa.

Buff Oberon?

That is what I took from this.

Very shallow way to look at isn't it? I am saying that easy frames shouldn't be rewarding as playing harder frames.

[MagPrime]

IDK, I think the difficulty of obtaining Warframes like Mesa (assuming they're farmed and not bought - not really any way around that one) compensates for how easy or hard they are.

[Ethan158]

>Dying while Mesa kills everything

 

[YUNoJump]

I agree that Mesa is probably a bit OP just because she has one of the best damage abilities AND one of the best tank abilities, but she's certainly not THE best at both of those things. Shatter Shield really falters against enemies that don't use bullets/projectiles (such as Scorches, melee units, and explosives detonating near her), and Peacemaker has the obvious "locked in position, gets harder to hit enemies" issue. The best way to avoid dealing with Peacemaker stealing all the kills is to either move away, or focus on enemies in the flanks. Basically don't stand right next to a Mesa in Peacemaker and expect to get a lot of kills. 

The other issue is that because damage abilities are graded based on how well they perform at Sortie 3 levels, everything tends to get oneshot by abilities below level 40-45. It's difficult to have balanced abilities for damage while enemy eHP is so different across the level spectrum. 

It's also worth noting that when enemies are strong enough to get close to Mesa, you need to use her other abilities to defend yourself. On top of that, her viability as both a tank and a DPS means that all of her kit is useful, so calling her a "one trick pony" isn't really fair.

[VadiseReikaz]

As per usual, why should anyone change their play style or have their familiar frames changed because someone does not like it? I am pretty sure that if a player is playing solo in a group, they will not have a good time in the long run and it is their loss. You should not care about them beyond waiting to end of mission and clicking on ignore and moving on with your day.

Besides, the time for DE to revise Mesa will come when Mesa Prime comes. So dont worry, all frames will be eventually revised.

[phoenix1992]

1 minute ago, MagPrime said:

IDK, I think the difficulty of obtaining Warframes like Mesa (assuming they're farmed and not bought - not really any way around that one) compensates for how easy or hard they are.

Please no. By the same Logic Vauban should be a god incarnate, Gara as well.
 

12 minutes ago, ugoyumbenugoyum said:

It's a fact that some new players who reached MR 8 or around most likely wanting to be powerful and build a loadout which can take them into things like sorties and etc. So most of them will pick either some YouTubers favorites like Ash or Loki, or they will go after something they see and amazed by it like how Ember and Equinox performs on low levels, or pick some tanks to be more durable in the fights. This is all understandable and nice experience for a player. 

 

So..?

 

12 minutes ago, ugoyumbenugoyum said:

But some warframes doesn't allow players to improve themselves and ruin the experience for other players. 

 

Statement without examples.

 

13 minutes ago, ugoyumbenugoyum said:

Speaking of which, for example Mesa with peacemaker build. When I see them in my team I just quit the party. Not because they can do nice damage, (mostly I play as a support) but because as in my experiences they will not contribute the team's effort on the mission or revive teammates. They will just find a place with numerous enemies and press 4 and click brainlessly. Why they should bother with some dude bleeding out when they dish %60 of damage? This is a false sense of being a good player. So there should be some challenges for them as well so they can try to co-operate with other players. This is not a problem in low levels but this is a fun ruining factor which causes experienced players to be more elitists and leave whenever they see an MR 8 or so.

 

I smell personal agenda

15 minutes ago, ugoyumbenugoyum said:

don't mind if a player ruins a spy sortie due to some mistake but I mind a player in a co-op game behaves careless due to her/his false sense of success. For example in a survival mission doesn't paying attention to life support level ,just spamming 1 ability.

The fix is quite simple to be fair. Do Not make brainlessly easy high hitting abilities. Like peacemaker or make them scaled poorly without doing some tricks like World on Fire. 

Do you see the contradiction here?

 

15 minutes ago, ugoyumbenugoyum said:

Oberon is a great Warframe and can outsupport and outdps most of the frames in the high levels but he is hard to learn and master so noone plays with him in lower MRs. On the other hand Mesa is a great Warframe with nice gun jamming cc and overpowered damage but easy as hell. This has to be in reverse I believe.

 

Oberon is Oberon, Mesa is Mesa. Do not preach how players should play the game, unless you want the same to be applied to you.

[ugoooo]

1 hour ago, Ethan158 said:

>Dying while Mesa kills everything

 

Quite plausible when someone trying to do the objective like hijacking when Mesa is far getting kills. Not every mission is Akkad or Hydron you know.

[krc473]

8 minutes ago, ugoyumbenugoyum said:

I am saying that easy frames shouldn't be rewarding as playing harder frames.

Weigh up the benefit of using a frame, and the grind to get it.

Mesa, Saryn are hard to get. They are rewarding in a mission.

Oberon is dead easy. Why should he be as rewarding as a harder to get frame?

- I do think Oberon could be buffed a little though.

[o.0-]

11 minutes ago, ugoyumbenugoyum said:

Inexperienced Player Friendly Frames Shouldn't Be 1 Trick Ponies

The fix is quite simple to be fair. Do Not make brainlessly easy high hitting abilities. Like peacemaker or make them scaled poorly without doing some tricks like World on Fire. 

Oberon is a great Warframe and can outsupport and outdps most of the frames in the high levels but he is hard to learn and master so noone plays with him in lower MRs. On the other hand Mesa is a great Warframe with nice gun jamming cc and overpowered damage but easy as hell. This has to be in reverse I believe.

Actually the fix is not that simple. There are various moving parts with this, as a brand new player would still be missing and farming for mods that can super charge a Warframe.

And so if a player is able to go and trade for items, or buys things for plat then what?

So here is an idea, what about further adjusting the energy system that allows powers to be used? It becomes a far more complex matter and a big part are the design choices that are used by the devs to bring the game to life.

[-Temp0-]

Цитата

This is not a problem in low levels but this is a fun ruining factor which causes experienced players to be more elitists and leave whenever they see an MR 8 or so.

Experienced playres wouldn't leave pug game just because someone is running a trash frame or "not contibuting enough" because experienced players can solo everything and complete most missions including sorties alone and the only reason why they hit public is either company or increased enemies spawns in case of missions like survivals.

If you're bothering no one revives you enough you aren't "experienced". Experienced players don't die left and right to be bothered by such a silly thing. 

In an actual "hard" content I would pretty much prefer having Mesa on a team or Ash because I don't care about oberon's weak a** healing that isn't nearly enough to heal anyoen even in most sorties + no enemies = no problems. No one can kill you if they're already dead. Plus he's healing is worse than health pads or arcane elevate. In other words, a useless trash I would not want to see on most teams if I would started to care what pugs bring unless it's defection but even then I wouldn't care because I'd be playing Trinity not thinking my a** shoudl be carried by someone else. So how bout keeping that valuable opinion about how "useful" frames are for yourself?

Edited November 23, 2017 by -Temp0-

[EmberStar]

So you bail without even waiting to see how they're being played?  Okay.  Whatever makes you happy, I guess.  Yes, Mesa *can* just stand in one place and cosplay a turret.  She can also do other stuff that's pretty useful.  Ember *is* overall one-trick, she uses fire to murder stuff to death.  That's her whole kit.  She happens to be really really good at it, right up to the point where enemy HP scaling goes nuts and she almost can't do damage at all.

But like I said, you're free to do as you wish.  If you hate other frames that much, maybe you should consider joining a clan of like-minded players and then all of you can just never play the "broken" frames.

[YUNoJump]

2 minutes ago, krc473 said:

Weigh up the benefit of using a frame, and the grind to get it.

Mesa, Saryn are hard to get. They are rewarding in a mission.

Oberon is dead easy. Why should he be as rewarding as a harder to get frame?

- I do think Oberon could be buffed a little though.

Frames are designed to be useful at all levels of play, saying that some should be more rewarding/fun than others isn't really fair. Should your starting frame be completely unrewarding?

[MagPrime]

6 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

Please no. By the same Logic Vauban should be a god incarnate, Gara as well.

I hear that they both are, so...

[phoenix1992]

1 minute ago, YUNoJump said:

Frames are designed to be useful at all levels of play, saying that some should be more rewarding/fun than others isn't really fair. Should your starting frame be completely unrewarding?

You do realize that there are people that think exactly that.

 

Just now, MagPrime said:

I hear that they both are, so...

And I hear Mag is C tier frame. People say a lot of things

Edited November 23, 2017 by phoenix1992

[MagPrime]

Just now, phoenix1992 said:

And I hear Mag is C tier frame. People say a lot of things

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[-Temp0-]

3 минуты назад, YUNoJump сказал:

Frames are designed to be useful at all levels of play, saying that some should be more rewarding/fun than others isn't really fair. Should your starting frame be completely unrewarding?

They already are.

Mag and Volt are a total let down for most of new players. Even DE agrees on that saying that Excalibur is a better choice for new inexpereined players.

But at least next ones - Rhino, Valkyr and some otehrs are braindead easy to get so there's that.

Цитата

Please no. By the same Logic Vauban should be a god incarnate, Gara as well.

Gara's freaking amazing and scales infinitely if you have the time. So are Harrow and Nidus for example.

Edited November 23, 2017 by -Temp0-

[TKDancer]

2 minutes ago, -Temp0- said:

 So are Harrow

idk about u, but harrow's buff juggling can be quite annoying, specially since he needs all stats to be high(duration for obvious reasons, range for the support aspect of thurible,  strength to speed up thurible and improve shield gain, efficiency cause he aint no Trin) and having to charge thurible is bleh, even after that speed up update all those months back

[TKDancer]

6 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

And I hear Mag is C tier frame. People say a lot of things

they right :^)

[phoenix1992]

2 minutes ago, -Temp0- said:

Quote

Please no. By the same Logic Vauban should be a god incarnate, Gara as well.

Gara's freaking amazing and scales infinitely if you have the time. So are Harrow and Nidus for example.

Opinions, mate opinions. You have yours, I have mine - "hard farm" does not produce god tier frames, Digital Extreme's balancing does. 

This is totally not counting that "indefinite" scale is applied to only 2 modes, both of whom are dominated by Invisible frames.

[-Temp0-]

Только что, phoenix1992 сказал:

Opinions, mate opinions. 

There's no other opinion other than "Gara's freaking amazing and useful".
I couldn't care less if she was just given fro free to everyone tho. Most frames should be useful like Mesa or Gara, less useless *** like Oberon or Hydroid (although Hydroid is better now at least).

[ugoooo]

1 hour ago, -Temp0- said:

Experienced playres wouldn't leave pug game just because someone is running a trash frame or "not contibuting enough" because experienced players can solo everything and complete most missions including sorties alone and the only reason why they hit public is either company or increased enemies spawns in case of missions like survivals.

If you're bothering no one revives you enough you aren't "experienced". Experienced players don't die left and right to be bothered by such a silly thing. 

Yeah I didn't say they didn't revive me boo hoo. I said they do play selfishly and yes it does bother me when I extract 2000 cryotic by myself and others do nothing. Sometimes I want to farm faster you know. Everybody can die in this game as well, so don't be an edgy and boast yourself. If you don't die you are either playing very low level content or some eximus units can zero your energy in a miliseconds and a bullet from a lancer one shot you after lvl 300 or so.

[krc473]

5 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

Frames are designed to be useful at all levels of play, saying that some should be more rewarding/fun than others isn't really fair. Should your starting frame be completely unrewarding?

My preference is all frames be rewarding to play. Personally, I find some frames more rewarding than others - it is not about difficulty to get. It would not be the best idea for a business to make everything equal, with some substantially harder to get. 

 

You may have misunderstood what I meant by "rewarding". I do not mean that one frame should just be all round better than everything else, because it is harder to get. A hard to get frame has to offer an incentive to get it - something has to be better, not everything, just something. This can make it more rewarding to play as said frame.

• Take Equinox for example. This is not an easy frame to get. Why would I buy or farm Equinox if it offered no benefits over anything else?
• If I can use say, Mag to achieve exactly what I would with an Equinox, why would I get Equinox? Equinox has to offer something that is more rewarding than Mag. (Yes, Mag my offer have her benefits over Equinox)