Duration Defense Casts and you, the idea that perhaps older decisions were the right ones

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

As you may know GARA's 4 is getting nerfed by using the same hp based mechanics that frost's snow globe has. While i do not think this is good, there is a light at the end of the tunnel and there is a reason why this kind of change CAN make sense.

1: It forces people to use steel fiber, that stacked on top of her Spinter storm and it helps her glass wall so it at least has cohesion.

2: Unlike frost globe only sections get removed, and not the entire thing when it reaches zero.

However Ironically, it's not GARA that is the main problem, the main problem is the frame that it was made for. Frost and how this method of globing has ruined his kit completely. Despite being the king of defense as many say, he is not. Currently many frames like limbo and current gara can hold an objective way better than frost. It is only when exploiting the 3 second invincibility timer in endgame that makes him "king" making him the same thing that de strived to remove many years ago. However i am getting too much ahead of myself, lets discuss why.

First to just put on the table frost needs buffs

1: His prime needs a massive energy pool buff and more armor to be in line with all the other primes

2: He also Needs primed bits: Refer to this awesome concept that was upvoted to hell many years ago http://i.imgur.com/hvH6x0W.png

3: Ice Wave impendance needs to be inate on icewave

Since frost's release he has received 3 globe iterations

Duration + Infinite health = Just like Gara's

Duration + HP = Burn it with fire

HP only based = The globe has a 3 second invincibility period where it gets extra hp.

Before my suggestion lets talk about the current globe. While relying on an hp globe as of now is okay for starchart it scales down really fast in endgame. To circumvent this, players would spam globe every 3 seconds to take advantage of the invincibility period. The reason why we reached this point in the first place is because DE did not want Frost to just AFK and press 3 every 50 seconds, now Frost is not AFK but players will just macro or destroy the 3 key and occasionally 4. So now we have gone nowhere.

However the biggest issue with globe, is that it is very hard to build for. This will be lengthy so bear with me.

We established that the HP based globe is useless in higher than starchart. So many endgame frost players will take advantage of the 3 second invincibility period. Frost's abilities are also very costly at base 50 energy for his 2nd and 3rd and 100 for is 4th. Therefore efficiency mods are almost mandatory on a meta globe build. This creates a massive problem as spec'ing for max efficiency takes a really hard hit on your duration this would ruin icewave (if icewave impedance was inate) and Avalanche's freeze which is Frost's only way of stopping enemies in their tracks (the bread and butter for a CC frame). And vice Versa. IF we want to add range we can add stretch, but anything involving the corrupted version is out of the question because less strength removes the armor strip that avalanche has.

If you were building for an HP globe you cant build a big range globe because you would need that little bit of power strength for avalanche. So spamming can be viable. (Yes to reach max hp its faster to spam than to have a stuper high strength globe)

If I wanted to build for Avalanche and Ice wave I would need range, but too much range destroys my armor strip capabilities and it also makes the globe way to big for defending. I would need duration which has no effect on my globe but if I wanted some efficency, too bad my avalanche and ice wave get hit.

These are some minor examples, the point is that you cannot build for globe without ruining avalanche and to a lesser extent icewave and vice versa. Going for a balanced approach just makes all of his abilties lukewarm.

Above this FROST had great EHP stats, so not only are we juggling between 3 abilties that negate each other, but now we have to decide if we want to be tanky or a caster as well.

I want frames like NIDUS where hes always powerful, but players can use the mod system to modulate and prirotize what they want the most. I don't want to sacrifice abilities like i do with frost.

So what do i suggest. I suggest reverting globe back to its duration + infini hp based mode.

Its significantly smaller range should make it more balanced versus gara's shield, and the fact the enemies can walk through it.

It would also be focused on duration, bit of range and efficiency. so it would be all in line with his other abilities and thus to be able to use all abilities freely and for them to be modded for freely without making some lukewarm. And if Ice wave impendance beacame inate to icewave thats 3 abilties that are positively effected by duration. Frost would be more powerful and defensive and about that would not have to stay in one place just to keep globe up. While there is not polarizing different builds frost remains a cohesive kit and delivers his own unique experience that can be modulated with mods depending on play style.

I also suggest that some augments can be changed:

Icy Avalanche should give additive armor. Adding this mod would completely change the way to build frost making him a berserker tank. creating another way to play frost

Chilling globe should be an AOE DOT for frozen enmies 100% of the time. So now players can build for a DPS frost.

Make augments change the way warframes play, not as pieces of abilities that you forgot to add.

Frost DPS:

If you spam globe enemies that hit walls get finisher damage, this is inconsistent and im torn as to whether or not it should be removed. But with the chilling globe augment in mind I think it can stay as players build for DPS while his vanilla kit is still defensive in its nature.

[Voltage]

I agree with this potential change ideas. Frost as he is now is a powerful frame, but only because be abuses mechanics to be like Mass Vitrify. Frames like Nova, Gara, and Octavia need to be added more. If I build a Nova for duration and strength, 3/4 abilities benefit without killing the other abilities. With Frost on the other hand, building for range on ice wave and avalanche only hurts snowglobe unless you are breaking your fingers to abuse a broken mechanic. 

[Blade_Wolf_16]

il y a 58 minutes, Eureka.seveN a dit :

First to just put on the table frost needs buffs

Wait what? They're nerfing Gara and you want them to buff Frost? Are you out of your mind? 

Frost has better stats than even Rhino Prime, the supposed Heavy-Frame with high armor etc, and he's basically the 3rd Frame in the game (first is the Starter, then Rhino, then Frost) and a mandatory frame (in defenses) on top of that. Frost (and the Prime) is the go to Defense frame since... years. He had plenty of nerfs and buffs but is still the most used defense frame in the game (not taking in account that most noobs use their shiny Frost P everywhere cuz reasons). With his kit, Duration isn't a must so you can put Fleeting Expertise without any real problem and solve the energy problem in a better way than "buff the energy pool", as energy regens works better on low energy, high efficency builds than the opposite. Otherwise, why would everyone complain about MV's energy cost (while Gara has 150 base energy) and not SG's (when Frost has less max energy)?

 

Buffing Frost to insane levels of power creep or nerfing Gara to Oblivion (which is pretty much what will happen with this upcoming change) is not the solution. 

[LSG501]

8 minutes ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

 and he's basically the 3rd Frame in the game

You could argue that frost prime is the 1st frame in the game for a lot of new players....

[kgabor]

1 hour ago, Eureka.seveN said:

 Frost would be more powerful and defensive and about that would not have to stay in one place just to keep globe up.

This would only create another surge of globe spammer nups who don't babysit their globe and make the whole map bulletproof while letting the objective fail or simply go afk., we already have more than enough of those.

There is also a reason why Limbo can only use one Catalyst at a time and why it's duration based.

DE obviously didn't want to go that way which is why they nerfed Gara.

If anything, Frost globes could have a fixed range and a fixed transparent look that can't be changed with energy color and maybe made duration based instead of hp based for better scaling but no invincibility with no drawbacks for a spammable ability like globes.

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

21 minutes ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

Wait what? They're nerfing Gara and you want them to buff Frost? Are you out of your mind? 

Frost has better stats than even Rhino Prime, the supposed Heavy-Frame with high armor etc, and he's basically the 3rd Frame in the game (first is the Starter, then Rhino, then Frost) and a mandatory frame (in defenses) on top of that. Frost (and the Prime) is the go to Defense frame since... years. He had plenty of nerfs and buffs but is still the most used defense frame in the game (not taking in account that most noobs use their shiny Frost P everywhere cuz reasons). With his kit, Duration isn't a must so you can put Fleeting Expertise without any real problem and solve the energy problem in a better way than "buff the energy pool", as energy regens works better on low energy, high efficency builds than the opposite. Otherwise, why would everyone complain about MV's energy cost (while Gara has 150 base energy) and not SG's (when Frost has less max energy)?

 

Buffing Frost to insane levels of power creep or nerfing Gara to Oblivion (which is pretty much what will happen with this upcoming change) is not the solution. 

You misunderstood what I said. I said that Gara getting nerfd can be good in some aspects I didn't say I agreed with it.

 

The point is to explain that by pushing this change through it sets a precedent that frost current globe is perfectly okay which is not the case. And I explain why in the post. 

 

Frost is also not a mandatory frame anymore. He is not meta in raids, he is getting out performed I defending objectives by Gara and Limbo. 

His Aoe CC gets trumped by rhinos stomp a cheaper longer range ability that suspends enemies in air and allows them to be affected by pros. 

 

The only reason why frost is the most used defense frame is because for years frost was the only frame that was able to defend stationary objectives try sort it defense with frost and see how stupid you can look.

 

Whether or not a new player can obtain  frost is irrelevant. A prime is supposed to be a far superior variant of the original of more veteran players currently it's a very small difference. Above this I am with you, I also think rhino should get a Stat boost like mag prime so they can be in line with other primes.

 

Duration on frost is not a problem if you only build for globe however ignoring duration ruins the freeze properties of avalanche or ice wave. Which is what fleeting expertise does in exchange for globe spam builds. Many other frames can use fleeting without sacrificing casts.

 

Like I said I do think agree with the gara nerf I just stated why using the he frost solution on Gara works better on her than frost.

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

6 minutes ago, kgabor said:

This would only create another surge of globe spammer nups who don't babysit their globe and make the whole map bulletproof while letting the objective fail or simply go afk., we already have more than enough of those.

There is also a reason why Limbo can only use one Catalyst at a time and why it's duration based.

DE obviously didn't want to go that way which is why they nerfed Gara.

If anything, Frost globes could have a fixed range and a fixed transparent look that can't be changed with energy color and maybe made duration based instead of hp based for better scaling but no invincibility with no drawbacks for a spammable ability like globes.

Forcing babysitting in exchange for a proper cohesive kit and interactive play is dumb tbh

[Gendalph]

1 hour ago, Eureka.seveN said:

2: Unlike frost globe only sections get removed, and not the entire thing when it reaches zero.

There's an issue with sections being broken: due to how spawning mechanics work, enemies come from the same direction (up to about 3 directions), so you will have a couple of sections broken and your wall will be effectively rendered useless with just that since Mass Vitrify does not provide any debuffs.

Also, a single stack of Frost's Snow Globe does not provide enough defense on high levels, iirc Sortie 2 enemies have enough damage to break bubble before Mobile Defense console hack is finished, if I'm right you will have a few sections broken even faster.

On top of that, Gara's 125 base armor coupled with Splinter Storm makes Steel Fiber not viable on her (I can't think what I would replace in my build).

1 hour ago, Eureka.seveN said:

Before my suggestion lets talk about the current globe. While relying on an hp globe as of now is okay for starchart it scales down really fast in endgame. To circumvent this, players would spam globe every 3 seconds to take advantage of the invincibility period.

You've missed a point: 3-4 stacks of Frost's globe provides enough HP for it to defend an excavator or a console, even in Sortie 3 with damage modifiers. I'd go as far as to say you can use this strategy up to about level 200, maybe higher.

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

13 minutes ago, Gendalph said:

There's an issue with sections being broken: due to how spawning mechanics work, enemies come from the same direction (up to about 3 directions), so you will have a couple of sections broken and your wall will be effectively rendered useless with just that since Mass Vitrify does not provide any debuffs.

Also, a single stack of Frost's Snow Globe does not provide enough defense on high levels, iirc Sortie 2 enemies have enough damage to break bubble before Mobile Defense console hack is finished, if I'm right you will have a few sections broken even faster.

On top of that, Gara's 125 base armor coupled with Splinter Storm makes Steel Fiber not viable on her (I can't think what I would replace in my build).

You've missed a point: 3-4 stacks of Frost's globe provides enough HP for it to defend an excavator or a console, even in Sortie 3 with damage modifiers. I'd go as far as to say you can use this strategy up to about level 200, maybe higher.

No at around level 110 considering enemy volume you need to start spam casting 3. This is espcualky true if enemies like bombards are in the mix.

 

Keep in mind while 110 is not an insane level a few enemies that bypass the globe or manage to get a fee hits can dramatically hurt the objective. So even then spamming and exploiting the 3second invincibility is highly favorable. 

Also I just stated that steel fiber has cohesion with Gara.  With frost you are only using steel fiber for globe you cant take advantage of his HP pool because you need to devote slots to defense casts.

 

Edited December 5, 2017 by Eureka.seveN

[Gendalph]

6 minutes ago, Eureka.seveN said:

No at around level 110 considering enemy volume you need to start spam casting 3. This is espcualky true if enemies like bombards are in the mix.

I don't know what I'm doing differently, but I don't have any issues dealing with level 110 enemies, provided I'm playing in a party. Recasting Globe moves enemies away from you, which does contribute to objective survivability.

6 minutes ago, Eureka.seveN said:

Also I just stated that steel fiber has cohesion with Gara.  With frost you are only using steel fiber for globe you cant take advantage of his HP pool because you need to devote slots to defense casts.

I feel like it's exactly the other way around - Steel Fiber provides enough survivability on Frost to justify its use, unless you're building for Icy Avalanche, then yes, you don't have neither slots nor reasons to use Steel Fiber.

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

14 minutes ago, Gendalph said:

I don't know what I'm doing differently, but I don't have any issues dealing with level 110 enemies, provided I'm playing in a party. Recasting Globe moves enemies away from you, which does contribute to objective survivability.

I feel like it's exactly the other way around - Steel Fiber provides enough survivability on Frost to justify its use, unless you're building for Icy Avalanche, then yes, you don't have neither slots nor reasons to use Steel Fiber.

You are precisely proving my point the act of pushing enemies out if globe is the reason why it needs to be spammed. 

 

I am against that because it makes frost extremely boring to play in endgame.

 

And while steel fiber helps globe the only reason  why it keeps frost safe is because you need to spam cast 3 you can't die if no one can hit you

But now that you can't take advantage of his 630 armor because you need to use those slots on casting mods instead of vitality

 

Frost has high survivability under the guise that you have to spam 3 and exploit it

Edited December 5, 2017 by Eureka.seveN

[Gendalph]

23 minutes ago, Eureka.seveN said:

You are precisely proving my point the act of pushing enemies out if globe is the reason why it needs to be spammed. 

We don't have that issue - enemies rarely enter globe.

24 minutes ago, Eureka.seveN said:

But now that you can't take advantage of his 630 armor because you need to use those slots on casting mods instead of vitality

I have both Vitality and Steel Fiber on my Globe build.

25 minutes ago, Eureka.seveN said:

I am against that because it makes frost extremely boring to play in endgame.

Probably we're talking severely different levels, we rarely go over level 150-something.

[Shards-of-a-Soul]

This preconception that Frost is useless in endgame defense is simply ignorant. There was a Lua Defense Sortie a while back, so it was a normal defense and not an operative one. Took my Frost. I don't think the target's shields even went down.

The build isn't complicated either. Steel Fiber and Vitality are already musts for a frame with Frost's armor, and just slap a Fleeting Expertise on that and you're done.

 

Now I'm not saying that Frost outdoes Gara and Limbo, because I don't know how they perform in high level defense. I refuse to use Limbo and I haven't bothered to farm bounties for Gara yet, but Frost can more than hold his own in endgame defense, and by extension, Gara even with Mass Vitrify becoming health based.

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

1 hour ago, Shards-of-a-Soul said:

This preconception that Frost is useless in endgame defense is simply ignorant. There was a Lua Defense Sortie a while back, so it was a normal defense and not an operative one. Took my Frost. I don't think the target's shields even went down.

The build isn't complicated either. Steel Fiber and Vitality are already musts for a frame with Frost's armor, and just slap a Fleeting Expertise on that and you're done.

 

Now I'm not saying that Frost outdoes Gara and Limbo, because I don't know how they perform in high level defense. I refuse to use Limbo and I haven't bothered to farm bounties for Gara yet, but Frost can more than hold his own in endgame defense, and by extension, Gara even with Mass Vitrify becoming health based.

I didn't say that I said globe in its hp form is useless. That's why spamming is the end game method due to the 3 second invincibility timer.

[Shards-of-a-Soul]

16 minutes ago, Eureka.seveN said:

I didn't say that I said globe in its hp form is useless. That's why spamming is the end game method due to the 3 second invincibility timer.

As I said, I have Fleeting Expertise on. 1 Second of invulnerability isn't doing anything. I just stack 10 or so on the target and leave it. And that alone lasted multiple waves.

[BlackCoMerc]

So many of these issues would be mitigated, if 3/4 of the game didn't focus on standing around, defending fixed points, or camping a room.

We need new mission types. Ones like Assault, with varied objectives and a need to move THROUGHOUT the mission area.

The problem isn't that a frame might be king of defense over all others. The problem is that Defending is the only thing to be king OF. 

Also - Scaling and Power Creep. That we are even discussing what's viable against level 110 enemies, puts on display the absurd level of power creep that the games over reliance on Endless Missions and rotation Rewards has fostered for too long.

I want to EARN loot. Find it. Liberate it from enemies. Explore and collect. Not wait on timers to dole it out to me like some digital dopamine stimulant on drip feed.

It's time to move away from relying on Endless stuff. Let's be Ninjas again, and hunt down our loot - and our enemies - as opposed to standing around, waiting on them.

Edited December 5, 2017 by BlackCoMerc

[Azamagon]

As for wether Snow Globe should be HP+no duration, or InfiniteHP+duration, I'm not sure. Either one CAN be useable, so I'm ok with either one really *shrug*

However, I do have a problem with the lacklusterness of Freeze and Ice Wave. As for this part:

5 hours ago, Eureka.seveN said:

 

Frost DPS:

 

If you spam globe enemies that hit walls get finisher damage, this is inconsistent and im torn as to whether or not it should be removed. But with the chilling globe augment in mind I think it can stay as players build for DPS while his vanilla kit is still defensive in its nature.

This is where I think some changes could be made in his kit. Currently, his Snow Globe (and to an extent, Avalanche) has too much potential power, while Freeze and Ice Wave are really lackluster. Thus, I would like to suggest this for his kit:

FREEZE:

• Now freezes ALL enemies in its AoE, not just the main target (but could freeze the main struck target for the full duration, the others not as long, like 50% duration?). This AoE now also scales with Ability Range.
• ALWAYS creates the slowing ice-patch, but is now more like a sphere (highly transparent, as to not be visually obstructive). That means, wether you hit the floor, a wall, or an enemy, the slowdown patch sphere will always appear. This area now scales with Ability Range.
• Both of the above effects also take place when using it to destroy a Snow Globe.

Overall, an improved quick-CC cast, which is always useful. Wish I had some more ideas for this, but I don't think people would oppose these changes at least.

ICE WAVE:

• If it strikes frozen enemies, it pushes them away (doesn't have to be nearly as extreme in pushback force as current Snow Globe). Collision damage could exist (but once again, doesn't have to be as extreme as Snow Globe's damage), but could then come at the cost of breaking the freezing-effect on them and knocking down the targets.
• Ice Wave's direct damage could also potentially be a bit stronger against frozen targets (think in the lines of 3x higher or so).

This moves over some of the killing/nuke power from Snow Globe to Ice Wave (where it's making more sense, imo), but it can only really deal some damage if any one of the 3 other skills are used prior to IW.

SNOW GLOBE:

• No longer pushes enemies out on cast, but still freezes them briefly
• Wether hp or time-based, I'm unsure. I'm currently ok with the existing version though *shrugs*. If timerbased, I'd maybe increase its cost to 75 energy though.
• Potentially scrappable brainstorm idea:
  Tapcasting Snow Globe creates a minimally sized Snow Globe (Ability Range has minimal effect on this version's size)
  Holdcasting Snow Globe allows you to increase its size, stopping to grow when you let the button go, or if you have heldcast for 1 second (Ability Range has big effect on this version's max size, with similar size as to current Snow Globe, potentially slightly bigger, when cast for the full duration). Frost while hover in place while holdcasting, if heldcast midair.
  Yes, this is kind of like Gara's ultimate, but it's a really good design, since then you can adjust its size IN BATTLE, not just on the modding screen.

Less nuking potential, more adjustable size while on the battlefield. Fair enough, no?

AVALANCHE:

• Armor-reduction now also works for shields (all armor-reducing abilities/aguement should do that imo, to not pidgeonhole faction-viability).

Just some anti-faction bias buff.

PASSIVE:

• Cryogenic - Cannot be slowed down past his base speed! (Either instead, or on top of his current effect).

A passive that is less RNG-based, a bit less enemy-specific (even applies to certain environments!) and thematic to boot.

What do you think?

[Terrornaut]

3 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

So many of these issues would be mitigated, if 3/4 of the game didn't focus on standing around, defending fixed points, or camping a room.

We need new mission types. Ones like Assault, with varied objectives and a need to move THROUGHOUT the mission area.

The problem isn't that a frame might be king of defense over all others. The problem is that Defending is the only thing to be king OF. 

Also - Scaling and Power Creep. That we are even discussing what's viable against level 110 enemies, puts on display the absurd level of power creep that the games over reliance on Endless Missions and rotation Rewards has fostered for too long.

I want to EARN loot. Find it. Liberate it from enemies. Explore and collect. Not wait on timers to dole it out to me like some digital dopamine stimulant on drip feed.

It's time to move away from relying on Endless stuff. Let's be Ninjas again, and hunt down our loot - and our enemies - as opposed to standing around, waiting on them.

WF post of the year.

Part of me doesn't want WF to have this because I want less competition for my own projects and one of its central game modes <_< but I love WF so hopefully it will grow beyond its current limitations and tropes/hangups.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Terrornaut

[BlackCoMerc]

1 hour ago, Terrornaut said:

WF post of the year.

Part of me doesn't want WF to have this because I want less competition for my own projects and one of its central game modes <_< but I love WF so hopefully it will grow beyond its current limitations and tropes/hangups.

Thanks for this. I think perhaps I am largely drifting away from the game. Between content fatigue (we havent had a new, fun mission type besides Assault in two or more YEARS) and the increasingly time-gate oriented business model...its just losing me. I dont WANT it to; I still love the core game play. But the surrounding systems are eating away at the fun.

As for your own project, sounds interesting. Would be curious to know about that, and I wish you luck on it.