Sentient Beings? How Come Our Warframes Don't Move Themselves Besides That One Time In The Second Dream?

[MirageKnight]

10 hours ago, ascendingisborn said:

They actually seemed surprised it was happening if you look at the body language!

That's exactly why I had the impression that the Warframe itself was overriding whatever restrictions were put in place to keep the Warframe from doing its own thing. The Operator really looked like they weren't expecting that to happen and at any rate the Operator was just a tiny bit distracted by a certain rogue Warframe trying to kill us and still trying to absorb whole "wait, that was all just a waking dream??" thing.

16 hours ago, SaferSaviour said:

Operators don't need the chair/Somatic Link to perform Transference.

That only shows up after TWW.

On ‎12‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 10:13 PM, Salenstormwing said:

It could have been the first hint of TWW's transference.

Again, we only gain that ability after TWW after Teshin helps us to push our capabilities even further. Before then, that level of transference was unknown to us. We were incapable of it.

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

They're not Sentients they're Warframes.

/thread

[(XBOX)Mechanomaly]

44 minutes ago, (PS4)Tactless_Ninja said:

They're not Sentients they're Warframes.

/thread

We're not talking about the Sentient Faction at all.

[jfhsanseiIII]

I was under the impression the operator was controlling the warframe during that scene.  We hadn’t learned any of our other skills at that point.   

[(XBOX)Mechanomaly]

20 minutes ago, jfhsanseiIII said:

I was under the impression the operator was controlling the warframe during that scene.  We hadn’t learned any of our other skills at that point.   

Neither did we learn how to control our Warframes without the Somatic Link until we completed The War Within Quest.

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

No one knows for sure but..

Warframes are infested anyway, albeit docile and/or dormant ones.

[SaferSaviour]

6 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

That only shows up after TWW.

Again, we only gain that ability after TWW after Teshin helps us to push our capabilities even further. Before then, that level of transference was unknown to us. We were incapable of it.

Foreshadowing is a thing. The first time we hear the term 'Operator' is in Vor's Prize, after all.

[(XBOX)Mechanomaly]

Well, DE has told us that we still don't know exactly what Warframes are. They have some Infested Technocyte inside them, but that's not a lot of information.

54 minutes ago, OoKeNnEtHoO said:

No one knows for sure but..

Warframes are infested anyway, albeit docile and/or dormant ones.

 

[MirageKnight]

4 hours ago, SaferSaviour said:

Foreshadowing is a thing. The first time we hear the term 'Operator' is in Vor's Prize, after all.

Yes I know what foreshadowing is. That said, I wouldn't give DE's writers THAT much credit if the Operator's dialogue in TWW and ingame is anything to go by.

4 hours ago, (Xbox One)Juniormech777 said:

Well, DE has told us that we still don't know exactly what Warframes are. They have some Infested Technocyte inside them, but that's not a lot of information.

To be honest, I get the distinct impression that DE kind of makes things up and fleshes out details as they go along.

[(XBOX)Mechanomaly]

11 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

To be honest, I get the distinct impression that DE kind of makes things up and fleshes out details as they go along.

That's exactly what I think as well. But they get to decide it all, rather than just predicting it.

[Salenstormwing]

On 1/1/2018 at 12:14 AM, MirageKnight said:

Again, we only gain that ability after TWW after Teshin helps us to push our capabilities even further. Before then, that level of transference was unknown to us. We were incapable of it.

Like I said... hints. Foreshadowing. Someone also suggested this. And it's either believe that the operator instinctually reached out with the Warframe under duress and controlled it enough to break Hunhow-Sword, or that the Warframe has some form of intelligence dispite Hunhow called it a 'puppet on Tenno-strings'.

Plus, TWW levels of Transference might have been impossible at TSD time, but that doesn't mean it's not possible there is the ability to utilize it under stress on instinct or subconsciously Obviously TWW, Teshin put the player in a very stressful situation to bring forth the full Tenno power, but TSD could have been the first 'crack' to reveal the power underneath.

Or the Warframe moved on its own.

Pick the theory you like best. All we got are theories.

[(XBOX)Mechanomaly]

1 hour ago, Salenstormwing said:

Like I said... hints. Foreshadowing. Someone also suggested this. And it's either believe that the operator instinctually reached out with the Warframe under duress and controlled it enough to break Hunhow-Sword, or that the Warframe has some form of intelligence dispite Hunhow called it a 'puppet on Tenno-strings'.

Plus, TWW levels of Transference might have been impossible at TSD time, but that doesn't mean it's not possible there is the ability to utilize it under stress on instinct or subconsciously Obviously TWW, Teshin put the player in a very stressful situation to bring forth the full Tenno power, but TSD could have been the first 'crack' to reveal the power underneath.

Or the Warframe moved on its own.

Pick the theory you like best. All we got are theories.

This isn't even the topic. The topic is about how the Warframes are sentient. The topic is to discuss what causes them to be sentient. There's no point to create a theory that immediately gets debunked, to debate on whether the Warframes are sentient or not when there's quite a bit of clear proof that they're sentient, as already shown and explained in this thread. Compared to a popular term known as "foreshadowing".

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

On 31/12/2017 at 3:11 AM, DaftMeat said:

I interpreted that as the Operator was just controlling the Warframe without touching it.

I thought that at first as well, but after reading the initial TWW script and observing the scene a little more I don't think that's the case. DE have alluded to the Warframes being more than just mindless puppets in subsequent releases as well, especially with the latest Prime trailer in which Ballas appears to be describing the creation of Mirage Prime:

The early script of TWW also did depict Umbra as being an independent ("rogue") Warframe. Going back over the old Rhino Prime codex entry also gives off the impression that maybe the Warframes aren't as hollow as we might think. It seems like something DE has been building towards for a while, just like the reveal that we are actually the children of the Zariman 10-0 mentioned way back in the Ember Prime codex.

Also since the Operator hadn't actually learnt how to control their Warframes without the use of a transference cradle prior to TWW, I don't think it's likely they could control the warframe when being strangled by the Stalker.

[Currilicious]

I guess our frames usually don't get stabbed with the operator AFK.

Edited January 2, 2018 by Currilicious

[(XBOX)Mechanomaly]

Just now, Currilicious said:

I guess our frames usually don't get stabbed with the operator is AFK.

True. That's something you don't see everyday.

[SaferSaviour]

38 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

The early script of TWW also did depict Umbra as being an independent ("rogue") Warframe. Going back over the old Rhino Prime codex entry also gives off the impression that maybe the Warframes aren't as hollow as we might think. It seems like something DE has been building towards for a while, just like the reveal that we are actually the children of the Zariman 10-0 mentioned way back in the Ember Prime codex.

Also since the Operator hadn't actually learnt how to control their Warframes without the use of a transference cradle prior to TWW, I don't think it's likely they could control the warframe when being strangled by the Stalker.

Umbra frames have long been 'othered' by the developers. Whatever they are and however they work, they will be deliberately differentiated from Prime and Standard variants.

The Operator controls the Warframe without the cradle in the Second Dream in order to be carried away from Lua. Additionally. high stress situations (such as life-or-death moments) often serve to bring out aspects of people previously unknown even to them. Being strangled by the Stalker wouldn't necessarily need concentration so much as desperation and inbuilt survival instincts.

I do think there's more to the Warframes than we know, but I don't think they are fully self aware. Were that the case, why would they ever need Operators in the first place?

[(XBOX)Mechanomaly]

1 minute ago, SaferSaviour said:

Umbra frames have long been 'othered' by the developers. Whatever they are and however they work, they will be deliberately differentiated from Prime and Standard variants.

The Operator controls the Warframe without the cradle in the Second Dream in order to be carried away from Lua. Additionally. high stress situations (such as life-or-death moments) often serve to bring out aspects of people previously unknown even to them. Being strangled by the Stalker wouldn't necessarily need concentration so much as desperation and inbuilt survival instincts.

I do think there's more to the Warframes than we know, but I don't think they are fully self aware. Were that the case, why would they ever need Operators in the first place?

Well, they seem to be... semi-self aware? And they do need Operators because I think that's the source of energy for their abilities.

After the Operator drops from the Reservoir, they touch the Warframe, which is the alternative to using the Somatic Link. In the final cutscene of The Second Dream Quest, the Operator was extending their arm towards the Warframe, clearly giving the impression that they had to touch it to regain control of it.

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

18 minutes ago, SaferSaviour said:

Umbra frames have long been 'othered' by the developers. Whatever they are and however they work, they will be deliberately differentiated from Prime and Standard variants.

DE have said this a lot. It seems the way they might go about it is establishing that Umbra's are Warframes without Operators. Since the Stalker has Excalibur Umbras body, I think it's safe to assume the quest will include him at some point.

18 minutes ago, SaferSaviour said:

The Operator controls the Warframe without the cradle in the Second Dream in order to be carried away from Lua

Yes but only by direct physical contact. They can't actually control their Warframe independently from a distance yet.

18 minutes ago, SaferSaviour said:

Additionally. high stress situations (such as life-or-death moments) often serve to bring out aspects of people previously unknown even to them

That argument seems more in favour of the Warframe being sentient does it not? The operator is in danger and is still weak from being awoken, so the Warframe briefly acts on it's own to save them.

18 minutes ago, SaferSaviour said:

I do think there's more to the Warframes than we know, but I don't think they are fully self aware. Were that the case, why would they ever need Operators in the first place?

I don't think it's a case of them needing the Operators. More like the other way around. Whatever Ballas is hinting at in the Sacrifice trailer, it's definitely to do with the Warframes.

Edited January 2, 2018 by (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01

[(XBOX)Mechanomaly]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

Yes but only by direct physical contact. They can't actually control their Warframe independently from a distance yet.

Just don't forget that they can now do that after The War Within Quest.

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

Just now, (Xbox One)Juniormech777 said:

Just don't forget that they can now do that after The War Within Quest.

That's my point. They couldn't do it before TWW, so that heavily implies that the Warframe acted of it's own will in TSD.

[SaferSaviour]

18 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

DE have said this a lot. It seems the way they might go about it is establishing that Umbra's are Warframes without Operators. Since the Stalker has Excalibur Umbras body, I think it's safe to assume the quest will include him at some point.

Okay, this is super nitpicky, but forgive me; the Stalker doesn't have Excalibur Umbra's body. The Stalker has Excalibur's body, in a dark colour scheme. Excalibur Umbra has a different model, with a lovely long scarf and a few other shinies.

The Stalker also refers to himself as part of a pre-existing Orokin warrior caste in his codex.

18 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

Yes but that argument seems more in favour of the Warframe being sentient does it not? The operator is in danger and is still weak from being awoken, so the Warframe briefly acts on it's own to save them.

Not really. Even if it is all on the Warframe, that could simply be leftover programming rather than a sign of sentience.

18 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

I don't think it's a case of them needing the Operators. More like the other way around. Whatever Ballas is hinting at in the Sacrifice trailer, it's definitely to do with the Warframes.

I disagree. I'm with the crowd who think he's talking to Margulis about the Tenno.

19 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Juniormech777 said:

Well, they seem to be... semi-self aware? And they do need Operators because I think that's the source of energy for their abilities.

The Warframes were originally an independent project. They were not intended to be the Tenno-driven machines that they are, which suggests the Orokin had an alternate direction in mind, complete with a power source. When it was discovered the Tenno could Transfer themselves into the Warframes, the Orokin jumped aboard this idea and started reconfiguring the Warframes to be a method of not only weaponising them, but controlling them. Valkyr Prime is "Tenno tamed", for example.

Additionally, it wasn't Harrow that kept The Man In the Wall at bay, and it's not our Warframes TMITW mimics or haunts.

Edited January 2, 2018 by SaferSaviour

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

2 minutes ago, SaferSaviour said:

Okay, this is super nitpicky, but forgive me; the Stalker doesn't have Excalibur Umbra's body.

8 minutes ago, SaferSaviour said:

Even if it is all on the Warframe, that could simply be leftover programming rather than a sign of sentience.

Given all the previous and subsequent lore implications of sentience, it's more likely that the Warframes are actually acting of their own will. The Warframes are also not robots who function on programming. 

9 minutes ago, SaferSaviour said:

I disagree. I'm with the crowd who think he's talking to Margulis about the Tenno.

There is a reason why Umbra is there when this dialogue is being told. DE also said the Sacrifice focuses on the origins of the Warframes.

 

[(XBOX)Mechanomaly]

18 minutes ago, SaferSaviour said:

The Warframes were originally an independent project. They were not intended to be the Tenno-driven machines that they are, which suggests the Orokin had an alternate direction in mind, complete with a power source. When it was discovered the Tenno could Transfer themselves into the Warframes, the Orokin jumped aboard this idea and started reconfiguring the Warframes to be a method of not only weaponising them, but controlling them. Valkyr Prime is "Tenno tamed", for example.

Do you have ANY evidence about that?

Warframes weren't invented until Transference was invented.

[SaferSaviour]

I stand corrected on the Stalker's design. Possibly thrown by Hunhow's adornments. -shrugs-

1 minute ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

Given all the previous and subsequent lore implications of sentience, it's more likely that the Warframes are actually acting of their own will. The Warframes are also not robots who function on programming. 

There is a reason why Umbra is there when this dialogue is being told. DE also said the Sacrifice focuses on the origins of the Warframes.

There is no concrete evidence to suggest the frames are sentient. The strongest evidence in favour of the theory is the breaking of War during the Second Dream, and that's most definitely open to interpretation.

The biggest problem I have with the theory is that the Orokin would not manufacture sentient beings with such a cavalier attitude. Every codex, every bit of lore about the frames and Tenno puts the emphasis on the Tenno as something to be feared, as something so terrifying as to be worthy of destruction. If the Warframes were sentient, like the greatest enemies of the Empire, then surely they would have been more feared independently?

 

2 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Juniormech777 said:

Do you have ANY evidence about that?

Warframes weren't invented until Transference was invented.

The Story and History page of the wiki. I would posit that the Warframes as they were originally designed would have been VERY different as Excalibur (the first of 'our kind') of Warframe is described as being made during that time.

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

13 minutes ago, SaferSaviour said:

I stand corrected on the Stalker's design. Possibly thrown by Hunhow's adornments. -shrugs-

The fact that he has Umbras body model could very well mean he will feature strongly in the Sacrifice. The Stalker has long been thought of as a rogue warframe who doesn't have an Operator. 

13 minutes ago, SaferSaviour said:

There is no concrete evidence to suggest the frames are sentient.

No, but there are a lot of hints. The Rhino Prime codex, the breaking of the War. Also the first draft of TWW that was leaked back in 2016 showed that Excalibur Umbra was actually a sentient Warframe. Coincidentally the Sacrifice trailer uses the exact same words Ballas was supposed to use in the Umbra flashback sequence; "All miracles require sacrifice". If you want I can provide you with a link to the transcript over PM, since I don't know if putting a public link here would get me in trouble or not.

13 minutes ago, SaferSaviour said:

The biggest problem I have with the theory is that the Orokin would not manufacture sentient beings with such a cavalier attitude.

Who said they were made from scratch by the Orokin? They could very possibly be humans that were experimented on with the Technocyte virus.

13 minutes ago, SaferSaviour said:

If the Warframes were sentient, like the greatest enemies of the Empire, then surely they would have been more feared independently?

The Operators were kept secret if you remember. The only thing people knew about the Tenno is that they were the Warframes and nothing else. The Operators were specifically placed on Lua, the main seat of power for the Orokin Empire. It's obvious that no one was supposed to know about them. The Warframes are the Tenno.

Edited January 2, 2018 by (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01