Does anyone here actually like the Operator?

[Ham_Grenabe]

4 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Agree completely. 

Operator on the battlefield makes ZERO sense. If the Operator is that deadly dangerous, why was the frame ever necessary?

Yes - it's weird. Per the lore, the operators apparently remember all these schools and powers, so they were that powerful...and thus Warframes never needed to be.

Or we're going to find out (which is where I fear it's heading) that Warframes are obsolete tech and were just crutches for the operators after they fell from the height of their powers, which is going to be super depressing, because I hate that little runt. Even when they're silent.

Edited January 23, 2018 by Ham_Grenabe

[PatternistSlave]

I like my Operator.  One of my favorite anime is Maze.  Maze was awesome in or out of their mech and it worked.  Problem as I see it is there aren't currently clearly defined roles.  Anything that makes the Operator seem useful compared to a WF or vise versa.

[BlackCoMerc]

3 minutes ago, Ham_Grenabe said:

Yes - it's weird. Per the lore, the operators apparently remember all these schools and powers, so they were that powerful...and thus Warframes never needed to be.

Or we're going to find out (which is where I fear it's heading) that Warframes are obsolete tech and were just crutches for the operators after they fell from the height of their powers, which is going to be super depressing, because I hate that little runt. Even when they're silent.

Much more focus on Operator content without new missions and things to do for Frames, and I'm just going to uninstall and move on.

The moment to moment game play is the ONE thing Warframe has over other action games. Bullet jumping, aim gliding, wall climbing gun toting acrobatics MAKE this game. 

Keep neglecting that to focus on the boring, plodding, fragile space kid, and the game will lose players. Heck, PoE didn't retain any of the new players it brought in; numbers plummeted right back down. That alone is telling.

[BlackCoMerc]

2 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

I like my Operator.  One of my favorite anime is Maze.  Maze was awesome in or out of their mech and it worked.  Problem as I see it is there aren't currently clearly defined roles.  Anything that makes the Operator seem useful compared to a WF or vise versa.

Then what, exactly, do you actually like?

I keep seeing this: veterans posting numerous, fleshed out reasons why we dislike Operator and the neglect of Warframe game play that comes with it.

Then we get a rash of "I like the Operator, but" posts, most of which either can't even say why they like it, or talk about he great it is after 50+ hours of circular grind most of us have no intention of participation in.

[Airwolfen]

6 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Operator on the battlefield makes ZERO sense. If the Operator is that deadly dangerous, why was the frame ever necessary? If they Need the frame to survive the battlefield...why in the world ever leave it?

As per the lore the Orokin were afraid of the Zariman children and wanted them to be gone. However with the sentients attacking and the power of the void being extremely potent against them they set up a plan. control them by letting them control something with more manageble power.

Yes, the warframes in lore are a power LIMITER that the Orokin could control. Well... they thought that...

 

What that will mean for the games future however is something else entirely. DE have already made their intentions known that the operators are to stay at the utility side of the spectrum.

And as for frames, there is the whole thing about the sentient weapons for the frames. and the next major quest being Warframe focused instead of operator focused like the two existing ones.

[BlackCoMerc]

1 minute ago, Airwolfen said:

As per the lore the Orokin were afraid of the Zariman children and wanted them to be gone. However with the sentients attacking and the power of the void being extremely potent against them they set up a plan. control them by letting them control something with more manageble power.

Yes, the warframes in lore are a power LIMITER that the Orokin could control. Well... they thought that...

 

What that will mean for the games future however is something else entirely. DE have already made their intentions known that the operators are to stay at the utility side of the spectrum.

And as for frames, there is the whole thing about the sentient weapons for the frames. and the next major quest being Warframe focused instead of operator focused like the two existing ones.

I hope it's time to get back to frames. I think the game needs it to be.

In my opinion, though, this is a bad time to spend another year working on a 3 hour quests. The scarcity of content is piling on and I think DE would be well advised to get some new, replayable, Non-Endless missions up and running and rely heavily on environmental story telling and a minimum of scripting and dialogue for a while.

[PatternistSlave]

1 minute ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Much more focus on Operator content without new missions and things to do for Frames, and I'm just going to uninstall and move on.

The moment to moment game play is the ONE thing Warframe has over other action games. Bullet jumping, aim gliding, wall climbing gun toting acrobatics MAKE this game. 

Keep neglecting that to focus on the boring, plodding, fragile space kid, and the game will lose players. Heck, PoE didn't retain any of the new players it brought in; numbers plummeted right back down. That alone is telling.

These new players had an Operator?  0.o  I think PoE should have been focused on new players.  It wasn't.  Way off-topic.

10 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Then what, exactly, do you actually like?

I like the look, concept, and storytelling aspect.  There's potential for some interesting gameplay with a duality system. (see Soul Reaver or Link to the Past or Persona)

[BlackCoMerc]

Just now, PatternistSlave said:

These new players had an Operator?  0.o  I think PoE should have been focused on new players.  It wasn't.  Way off-topic.

I like the look, concept, and storytelling aspect.  There's potential for some interesting gameplay with a duality system. (see Soul Reaver or Link to the Past or Persona)

Gotcha.

There is potential there. But after two years and with them.still residing in so underwhelming a state...how much more time do you give it? 

Imean, it's been years since we have seen new, repeating content for Frames. PoE didn't retain many, if any, new players. And older ones are logging in less and less; check your clan chat for more on that.

How much more neglect can the unbalanced, stale core.content really handle at this point?

[PatternistSlave]

4 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Gotcha.

There is potential there. But after two years and with them.still residing in so underwhelming a state...how much more time do you give it? 

Imean, it's been years since we have seen new, repeating content for Frames. PoE didn't retain many, if any, new players. And older ones are logging in less and less; check your clan chat for more on that.

How much more neglect can the unbalanced, stale core.content really handle at this point?

As much time as it takes.  I enjoy the core gameplay so am fine in the meantime.  There is always going to be player dropoff no matter how focused they could be on new endgame content (which DE do a lot in that regard), but the way to keep the game interesting isn't more of the same and Operators are a way to expand beyond that.  Biggest issue isn't content for veterans though.  It's new player experience and retention.  I'd prefer that be the focus.  What keeps a game like this healthy is the society which means new players.  They get around to doing something compelling with Operators at some point all the better.

[Airwolfen]

6 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

As much time as it takes.  I enjoy the core gameplay so am fine in the meantime.  There is always going to be player dropoff no matter how focused they could be on new endgame content (which DE do a lot in that regard), but the way to keep the game interesting isn't more of the same and Operators are a way to expand beyond that.  Biggest issue isn't content for veterans though.  It's new player experience and retention.  I'd prefer that be the focus.  What keeps a game like this healthy is the society which means new players.  They get around to doing something compelling with Operators at some point all the better.

I really hope they do something with the new player experience thread they set up. I myself also added some ideas there on the most painful points I see people talk about as either what they found hard at the start or in some cases even their reason to quit early before really experiencing the game.

[BlackCoMerc]

13 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

As much time as it takes.  I enjoy the core gameplay so am fine in the meantime.  There is always going to be player dropoff no matter how focused they could be on new endgame content (which DE do a lot in that regard), but the way to keep the game interesting isn't more of the same and Operators are a way to expand beyond that.  Biggest issue isn't content for veterans though.  It's new player experience and retention.  I'd prefer that be the focus.  What keeps a game like this healthy is the society which means new players.  They get around to doing something compelling with Operators at some point all the better.

So...keep.neglecting core game play to try and.improve a two.year old, divisive system.that has summarily.failed to retain newer players and which A TON of vets also despise...

How is this a valid use of Dev time? 

I get the desire for variety. Believe me. But the new stuff has to be fun and compelling. And Operators are neither. 

Combat with an operator, after two.years, remains worse in every possible way than just using Frames. 

Why do you think their use is FORCED? Because DE knows very few people will ever use them voluntarily. And why would they? There is no need outside of arbitrary limits put in place by DE for that reason. Even the need to ACTIVATE a (badly named) "passive" buff smacks of a desperate need to say to investors "look how often people use the Operator we wasted...err, spent...two years working on.

Variety is fine. If.its FUN. Operators really...aren't.

Edited January 23, 2018 by BlackCoMerc

[BlackCoMerc]

2 minutes ago, Airwolfen said:

I really hope they do something with the new player experience thread they set up. I myself also added some ideas there on the most painful points I see people talk about as either what they found hard at the start or in some cases even their reason to quit early before really experiencing the game.

The game isn't growing to any significant degree. True.

I blame the terrible new player Experience, lack of information in game and increasingly pay to progress/acquire business model.

[PatternistSlave]

11 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

So...keep.neglecting core game play to try and.improve a two.year old, divisive system.that has summarily.failed to retain newer players and which A TON of vets also despise...

How is this a valid use of Dev time? 

I get the desire for variety. Believe me. But the new stuff has to be fun and compelling. And Operators are neither. 

Combat with an operator, after two.years, remains worse in every possible way than just using Frames. 

Why do you think their use is FORCED? Because DE knows very few people will ever use them voluntarily. And why would they? There is no need outside of arbitrary limits put in place by DE for that reason. Even the need to ACTIVATE a (badly named) "passive" buff smacks of a desperate need to say to investors "look how often people use the Operator we wasted...err, spent...two years working on.

Variety is fine. If.its FUN. Operators really...aren't.

Think of it like this.  You're running a drug company.  You'd have a research and development division.  Sure you keep working on improving Penicillin, which you sell a lot of, but you'd also have people working on the cure for cancer.  It might prove fruitless, but has immense potential.  I think Operators are worth it.

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

2 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

Think of it like this.  You're running a drug company.  You'd have a research and development division.  Sure you keep working on improving Penicillin, which you sell a lot of, but you'd also have people working on the cure for cancer.  It might prove fruitless, but has immense potential.  I think Operators are worth it.

Agree.

Many things have changed in the game.

Long ago, there wasn't any parkour or weapon stances or even focus or actual bosses.

Their early implementation were also mostly crappy and ugly, but over the years they become better and better.

So, we shouldn't just dismiss something just because it looks or feels bad now.

Operators offer a different form of gameplay that is more similar to normal shooters where there are no parkours and fast movements which is the direct contrast of frames.

As far as I know, DE is not replacing frames with operators. They are both meant to complement each other.

That is what the Eidolons are for.

The whole reason why the terraryst needs an operator to take down its shield and a frame to take down the limbs efficiently while the vombalysts need a frame to take out its shell and an operator to take out its spectre form efficiently is to drive the point of a tag team across. 

This is operator in its infancy and the game is still developing. Don't think of it as the end result.

[BlackCoMerc]

35 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

Think of it like this.  You're running a drug company.  You'd have a research and development division.  Sure you keep working on improving Penicillin, which you sell a lot of, but you'd also have people working on the cure for cancer.  It might prove fruitless, but has immense potential.  I think Operators are worth it.

Except drug companies don't ask their entire customer base to test drugs while the drugs are still crap. They have dedicated testing for that, explicitly so they don't turn their customers off the product.

DE instead released an underdeveloped product, waited years to refine it, refined it into largely less appealing garbage than it already was, built it to supplant and replace a strictly superior system because they said so...and when the reception was bad, doubled down and forced it on their customers.

Pretty much the opposite of good R&D, and a far cry from giving consumers what they want. Remember, it took DE making Teralyst shields immune to the Aura, to get hunter squads to bother using Operators. If they'd been fun, well designed mechanics, people would have used them because they WANTED to.

They didn't.

Edited January 23, 2018 by BlackCoMerc

[PatternistSlave]

2 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

drug companies don't ask their entire customer base to test drugs while the drugs are still crap.

Yeah they do.  People without options are desperate to try anything and do.  It's called a clinical study.  While I disagree heavily with the influence Operator/Veteran content has on new players, that's a separate issue.  Can sit around bashing DE all day, but the concept has potential.  Needs refined.

[BlackCoMerc]

27 minutes ago, OoKeNnEtHoO said:

Agree.

Many things have changed in the game.

Long ago, there wasn't any parkour or weapon stances or even focus or actual bosses.

Their early implementation were also mostly crappy and ugly, but over the years they become better and better.

So, we shouldn't just dismiss something just because it looks or feels bad now.

Operators offer a different form of gameplay that is more similar to normal shooters where there are no parkours and fast movements which is the direct contrast of frames.

As far as I know, DE is not replacing frames with operators. They are both meant to complement each other.

That is what the Eidolons are for.

The whole reason why the terraryst needs an operator to take down its shield and a frame to take down the limbs efficiently while the vombalysts need a frame to take out its shell and an operator to take out its spectre form efficiently is to drive the point of a tag team across. 

This is operator in its infancy and the game is still developing. Don't think of it as the end result.

Except that frames DO, FACTUALLY, REPLACE your Frames.

You fight with frames. You fight with operators. You stealth with frames. You stealth with Operators. And you MUST, at any given time, choose OBE OR THE OTHER of these.

One of which features slick, agile, empowering and engaging game play as a futuristic war machine. While the other features a slow, cumbersome, plodding child with a weak laser tag device. And yet, we still have to REPLACE the former with the latter whenever we are FORCED to use Operator mode.

Focus 1.0 was superior to what we have, in that it never required Gimpy Kid mode. Game play remained focused on Frames.

Now DE has corner painted their limited design team. Want Frame content, OR Operator content? Because we can't make both at the same time, based on the past year or more of (largely wasted) Dev time. Since Operator mode replaces Warframe mode with inferior combat, slower movement, weaker weapons and less durability, combat for the kids has to be designed only for them.

That's a problem. Even for a large team, it would involve trade-off. For DE, it's lead to years of almost complete neglect and stagnation of the reasons we came here. That's a recipe for killing your game.

[BlackCoMerc]

Just now, PatternistSlave said:

Yeah they do.  People without options are desperate to try anything and do.  It's called a clinical study.  While I disagree heavily with the influence Operator/Veteran content has on new players, that's a separate issue.  Can sit around bashing DE all day, but the concept has potential.  Needs refined.

Needs refined? It just GOT refined. If it still needs refined to even be entertaining, it's time to admit it's just NOT GOOD. You can toss it on the same scrap heap Archwing ought to occupy.

[Somi_xD]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb BlackCoMerc:

Except drug companies don't ask their entire customer base to test drugs while the drugs are still crap. They have dedicated testing for that, explicitly so they don't turn their customers off the product.

DE instead released an underdeveloped product, waited years to refine it, refined it into largely less appealing garbage than it already was, built it to supplant and replace a strictly superior system because they said so...and when the reception was bad, doubled down and forced it on their customers.

Pretty much the opposite of good R&D, and a far cry from giving consumers what they want. Remember, it took DE making Teralyst shields immune to the Aura, to get hunter squads to bother using Operators. If they'd been fun, well designed mechanics, people would have used them because they WANTED to.

They didn't.

The drug company comparison from PatternistSlave was just not fitting at all ^^
But your part with the underdeveloped product - it is exactly that what Warframe is.
The game is in a BETA state so, it is basically legit to throw in mechanics to test them.
So we basically don't have the right to complain in such a manner(as if it is a full game) about it.
But we are here for feedback on the game - we are the free testers, still at the same time DE needs to be careful to not "scare off" players.

vor 42 Minuten schrieb PatternistSlave:

Think of it like this.  You're running a drug company.  You'd have a research and development division.  Sure you keep working on improving Penicillin, which you sell a lot of, but you'd also have people working on the cure for cancer.  It might prove fruitless, but has immense potential.  I think Operators are worth it.

If you really want use this as a comparison, then it looks more like this.
They keep on working on Penicillin, but they modify it in a way, so you need to take supplements additional to the penicillin to make it work 100%, even if it would work without the supplements.

[(PSN)Elvenbane]

1 hour ago, PatternistSlave said:

As much time as it takes.  I enjoy the core gameplay so am fine in the meantime.  There is always going to be player dropoff no matter how focused they could be on new endgame content (which DE do a lot in that regard), but the way to keep the game interesting isn't more of the same and Operators are a way to expand beyond that.  Biggest issue isn't content for veterans though.  It's new player experience and retention.  I'd prefer that be the focus.  What keeps a game like this healthy is the society which means new players.  They get around to doing something compelling with Operators at some point all the better.

I agree about new players...which is one more reason not to focus on operators, all but one of my real-life friends quit WF before even getting to the Second Dream...

[Ezekeel666]

1 hour ago, PatternistSlave said:

but the way to keep the game interesting isn't more of the same and Operators are a way to expand beyond that

Like fishing and mining? Stick to what you know and what you are good at. Broadening the scope of a game too much just ends up with a Disney theme park of a game without identity that does everything but nothing really good.

[PatternistSlave]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Elvenbane said:

I agree about new players...which is one more reason not to focus on operators, all but one of my real-life friends quit WF before even getting to the Second Dream...

Yeah it's by far the biggest issue that should take precedence.  Tossing endgame out entirely doesn't help much either though as new players aren't likely to try a game with that reputation in the first place.

24 minutes ago, Somi_xD said:

so you need to take supplements additional to the penicillin to make it work 100%, even if it would work without the supplements.

And as I said in what was I believe my first post in the thread.  Operators and Warframes need clearly defined roles.

23 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Warframe us a fully released, live in Production software.

So?  It's an online game constantly evolving.  You'd prefer expansions you had to buy?

7 minutes ago, Ezekeel666 said:

Like fishing and mining?

I liked fishing.  =/

[DatDarkOne]

1 hour ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Except drug companies don't ask their entire customer base to test drugs while the drugs are still crap. 

LOL, I guess  you haven't seen any of the drug commercials in the last decade.  That's exactly what they are doing. 

[chainchompguy3]

For the most part, I agree with all of your points.

 

I'd particularly like to emphasize just how jarring the narrative dissonance is for the cinematic quests.

In gameplay, both your Operator and your Warframe are you. You have 1-1/2 avatars, with one controlling the other. You customize both, use both in gameplay, and with the Operator in particular, you're pretty much encouraged to make your avatar look like your real-world self.

But then the cutscenes come around, and the game goes "Uh-oh, the Operator is scared! This is such a scary thing!" "Uh-oh, the Operator is sad about losing his/her space-mom" and my only reaction is "...um....no I'm not.". It's taking what used to be a blank canvas, to project either ourselves, or a character of our creation upon. Now it's trying to just suddenly make them an entirely separate character, just like any of the other NPC's.

I wouldn't mind so much if the game as a whole shifted towards being more focused on these new characters. Then I could at least tell myself that "oh, they're just taking the game in a new direction. They decided they'd rather have a set character rather than a silent one, so that they could tell a story".

But that's not really the case. For the most part, everything just returns to normal after the cutscenes end. You still customize the Operator and Warframe like your character/self, you still play the game in mostly silence, letting you fill in your own thoughts as the avatar's thoughts. You still walk around the orbiter that you've covered with your own preferences of noggles, ayatans, glyphs, and other assorted decorations.

 

If it was trying to make the character matter, that character's preferences would be the ones affecting the world around you as you played. Your preferences would affect the gameplay, while at the same time the character is affecting the story that's being told by your gameplay.

The character would have feelings on how you/he/she just slaughtered a horde of infested: good or bad feelings, depending on the story.

You would try to shoot your friend, for the laughs, but the character pitches in and says "No, I don't have to kill them....yet."

The character would insult a grineer troop over comm's, and that'd result in getting ambushed by a group of Grineer Manics.

You craft a new weapon, and the character comments "Oh, X, I think I remember that being my favorite weapon, back in the day..."

Instead, the most we see of this character is their occasional, entirely disconnected quips about the mission.

"For the Lotus", while you sit in a small room, talking with your friend over PM while you wait for him/her to join the mission.

 

Yet that character, with absolutely no presence, development, or substance, is the focus and major decision-maker of the story.

 

So it's trying to give it's cake a personality and tell us that the cake is us too.

 

 

But, I feel like something needs to be said in DE's defense.

Because after all, they had to give us something, right?

Remind me again if I'm wrong, I have bad memory, but wasn't the War Within delayed well over a year?

After that long of a wait, they couldn't just continue working on it in silence. That had to give us something to show for the lack of updates to other areas.

They probably intended for us to have more human interactions using our operator's human face, have a massively deepened plot due to having themes of growing up, seeing the world for what it really is, and body-dysphoria ("You thought you were a full-grown-man sized warframe? Psych! You're a fragile little kid who's been in stasis for who knows how long! Have fun going through puberty while having the mind of an adult!").

But that would have taken probably another 3 years more.

 

So I've been under the impression that we ought to give them some slack, that this is mostly just the absolute essentials, and then the fleshing out will come later.

Of course, DE had to go and make that defense a bit weaker by immediately moving onto doing the Plains, but it still stands, for the most part.

Edited January 24, 2018 by chainchompguy3
I don't know how to words. Phrasing.

[Chipputer]

3 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Much more focus on Operator content without new missions and things to do for Frames, and I'm just going to uninstall and move on.

Again? Surely you tease. You'll be back within a week of uninstalling because your new bastion of a Well Balanced Game(tm) isn't quite as balanced as you wanted.

This isn't a problem with you, alone. This is a problem with this forum as a whole. They see Operators and they dislike them thematically. DE gives them the option to turn off their voiceovers so they don't have to hear them talk anymore and people complain about their gameplay. DE ups their gameplay to be worth using without making them fully replace your Warframe and then people complain that their gameplay isn't the same as the Warframes so DE should stop developing them and focus on the Warframes again.

Meanwhile, within that same breath, people will complain that DE doesn't finish what they start and need to stop implementing new systems without finishing them.

Then people wonder why DE has such a sporadic development cycle when the feedback can't decide what it wants.