Ember's WoF discussion; Does it deserve the hate?

[Smokeythecat]

An argument could be made for both the WOF game mechanic, and the player using Ember. Whenever I use Ember's WOF, I consider what mission we are running, and the other players' Warframes and weapons being used. For example, if the map is simply an exterminate alert for a nitain reward, I will run WOF, let it burn up everything, get through the mission as quickly as possible so everyone can get the reward, and move on. Other missions I use what I call Warframe etiquette so that everyone has to opportunity to contribute by not killing everything myself, unless other players agree that they want WOF to consume most of the kills. After enough in game experience it becomes clear when you should burn the world down, or hold back so everyone has a fun time in the mission. At least that's how I approach the game instead of blaming the game mechanics, because I choose to take some responsibility upon myself to make the game fun for others. This general approach has worked well for me so far.

[Hypernaut1]

Ember is not the issue. A vet player could probably do the same thing with an Ignis or any other mass killing weapon. You remove WoF and it just gets replaced with something else, unless you want to remove all AoE in a horde shooter game.

[Cifrer]

The problem is WoF makes the game boring.  It needs changed.

[Voltage]

5 hours ago, kuciol said:

I(t doesnt mean nerfing. You read what you want to see. She cannot scale BECAUSE of her WoF, she would be to busted if she would. I also dont care about fariness, i described what problem i have and you by some reason took it so personal that somebody may not like Ember. I want her to have scaling dmg but not press 4 and run to extraction. Thats how 90% of games look like with ember. I also dont care that she cannot do it on sorties, she can do it up to sedna and that means 80% of the game and thats the problem here. I dont see any topics about Equinox, Nidus or Octavia, dont you think its strange? You know that people want to play warframe and not running simulator right? And please dont start this "play solo" bull..... Running from problems is never a solution.

The reason Equinox and Octavia are not on the forums is because people jump from one to the next. When the Meta was Ash Bladestorm and Miasma Saryn, did you see any Ember or Equinox threads? No. You saw Ember after they nerfed those and if they change Ember, I can garentee Equinox will be next because vets will jump to the next best thing, and players would complain about that too. It is just like the Telos Boltace. People said Boltace was OP and DE "reworks" (utterly destroys) its passive. Now people claim Scoliac needs a nerf (or at least the Riven mod). People will continue to pillage anything used for efficiency because it "takes away from their fun/mission". Some people have done so many missions, that not running right through to extraction is slow and not fun. Everyone has different playstyles, and you shouldn't ruin the efficient one because you don't like it.

There is no realistic way to rework Ember without nerfing her (this is DE we are talking about here). So many people who wanted Telos Boltace nerfs gave options to reduce the spam and still have a meaningful passive. Do you know what we got? A completely garbage vacuum on a cool down that does nothing but waste your time. Use history to determine how this will end up for Ember.

The issue here is still matchmaking, not Ember. You don't like it when players do the mission efficiently with AoE abilities, so not being matched with them is your solution, not ruining every AoE frame because you want every frame to be clunky like Ash and Saryn and require many button presses to get some kills. Banshee is widely used for DPS compared to Saryn because of this.

Edited January 11, 2018 by --Q--Voltage

[QueenKharn]

There are ways, however, to make the play of Ember (and Banshee, Equinox, etc) more active and synergistic. To make the play of the Frame(s) more engaging/active and less toxic to the play of their team mates and the game as a whole.

Honestly, most of those changes are going to require a change in function.

Edited January 11, 2018 by KokoroWish

[phoenix1992]

So...

How many times will someone repeat the "Ember does not scale well in high level missions", while in the same time visualizing sortie level of missions in which WoF can still work? (mind you WoF build, not FQ build)
And based on that half baked assumption demand "scaling changes"?

Dear forum people, don't make grandiose statements without having the information to back it up - the same WoF build used the Star Chart missions, does not work in level 100 because Ember has a very tight enemy cap (5), but that does not mean that there are no WoF builds that support that level of content. 

And in the same vine as OP (whom asked why do some frames get away with it while Ember does not), I want to ask why does your preferred Invis/Invulnerable/Condition Overload/Slide Macro/Spam 1, should work on all levels?

[kuciol]

6 hours ago, --Q--Voltage said:

The reason Equinox and Octavia are not on the forums is because people jump from one to the next. When the Meta was Ash Bladestorm and Miasma Saryn, did you see any Ember or Equinox threads? No. You saw Ember after they nerfed those and if they change Ember, I can garentee Equinox will be next because vets will jump to the next best thing, and players would complain about that too. It is just like the Telos Boltace. People said Boltace was OP and DE "reworks" (utterly destroys) its passive. Now people claim Scoliac needs a nerf (or at least the Riven mod). People will continue to pillage anything used for efficiency because it "takes away from their fun/mission". Some people have done so many missions, that not running right through to extraction is slow and not fun. Everyone has different playstyles, and you shouldn't ruin the efficient one because you don't like it.

There is no realistic way to rework Ember without nerfing her (this is DE we are talking about here). So many people who wanted Telos Boltace nerfs gave options to reduce the spam and still have a meaningful passive. Do you know what we got? A completely garbage vacuum on a cool down that does nothing but waste your time. Use history to determine how this will end up for Ember.

The issue here is still matchmaking, not Ember. You don't like it when players do the mission efficiently with AoE abilities, so not being matched with them is your solution, not ruining every AoE frame because you want every frame to be clunky like Ash and Saryn and require many button presses to get some kills. Banshee is widely used for DPS compared to Saryn because of this.

It easier to change 3 toxic aoe abilities (limbo, ember and banshee) than rework whole matchmaking. Equinox doesnt get the hate because she has to work for that dmg, thats the main difference here. There are ways to make them good, scaling dps skills but thats up to DE what they will do. Let me give you example : WoF > Enemies burn, losing 15% of their health (current! not max) per second, affected enemies take 20% more dmg (like bane mod) and grant 5hp when killed. Boom scaling dmg + team utility without insta killing everything on map.

 

In the end it doesnt matter, the point still stands. Those abilities are just as annoying as Limbos 4 and something has to be done about them.

[Atekron]

I don't hate Ember, but why you use it on Hydron? It's so painfully slow, just use Banshy. Ember is good only for low level missions, like running meso or lith extermination or capture. People hate Ember not for stealing kills but for slowing a mission.

[Atekron]

On 09.01.2018 at 7:20 PM, Midrib said:

Ember's WoF and Banshee's SQ aren't like that and thus need to be changed.

nope, they are very usefull, don't touch them (you forgot Saryn's spores)

[Hypernaut1]

3 hours ago, kuciol said:

It easier to change 3 toxic aoe abilities (limbo, ember and banshee) than rework whole matchmaking. Equinox doesnt get the hate because she has to work for that dmg, thats the main difference here. There are ways to make them good, scaling dps skills but thats up to DE what they will do. Let me give you example : WoF > Enemies burn, losing 15% of their health (current! not max) per second, affected enemies take 20% more dmg (like bane mod) and grant 5hp when killed. Boom scaling dmg + team utility without insta killing everything on map.

 

In the end it doesnt matter, the point still stands. Those abilities are just as annoying as Limbos 4 and something has to be done about them.

Then people would just use suped up AoE weapons... And we're back here at people complaining that they don't get kills.

[QueenKharn]

47 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Then people would just use suped up AoE weapons... And we're back here at people complaining that they don't get kills.

Luckily, the really toxic AoE weapons have been brought into line (Simulor and Tonkor), so now they're all of limited scope, range, have self damage or require specialized play (even the whips and tonfa). It really is these particular types of passive engagement Warframe AoE abilities that are the stand-out problems in the game and have been for a long while. Hence Ember's previous WoF rework to try and bring it into line, with limited success.

Edited January 11, 2018 by KokoroWish

[robbybe01234]

5 minutes ago, KokoroWish said:

Luckily, the really toxic AoE weapons have been brought into line (Simulor and Tonkor), so now they're all of limited scope, range, have self damage or require specialized play (even the whips and tonfa). It really is these particular types of passive engagement Warframe AoE abilities that are the stand-out problems in the game and have been for a long while, hence Ember's previous WoF rework to try and bring it into line, with limited success.

As I posted in the most recent limbo hate thread, the ability or the gun isn't capable of being toxic.  I believe it's the persons response to the situation and their interactions with others that is toxic.  As if life is 10% what happens TO you, 90% how you REACT to it. 

[Reifnir]

13 hours ago, (PS4)supernova_girlie said:

I only get disgusted with Ember when it's an MR20+ on E-Prime or something low like that. Maturity allows me to understand that even though I can wipe the entire kindertenno map, it's imprudent and a bit selfish to do so.

And is it your "maturity" again that blinds you to the fact that the only reason a MR20+ player with a maxed out AoE warframe will come to a low-tier mission is because there are zero alternatives to them sometimes? 

If I need something from a Lith/Meso relic, be it relics themselves or their contents, I *will* bring a frame/weapon combo that allows me to wipe the floor with enemies.

If the only endless void fissure mission to farm Traces is available on a low-tier node - I will do exactly the same. 

Or if there's an alert I need. Or an Invasion. Or a Syndicate mission/Simaris target. There are plenty of reasons.

Attempting to stage a "fair" fight against enemies that melt when someone as much as looks in their general direction is far from productive OR fun.

13 hours ago, (PS4)supernova_girlie said:

since you've done this all before why the rush?

Because I still need the loot and intentionally crippling myself just because there are no high-tier alternatives is not something I would willingly do.

Give us an option to run "heroic" mode of low-level nodes with more/better loot (a Heroic Lith Fissure with 2x or 3x Void Traces drop and/or buffed resource/credit drops, anyone?) and soon enough you won't see a single high-MR player carrying lowbies through early planets - or, if that's the wording you like, "denying them participation". 

[Voltage]

5 hours ago, kuciol said:

It easier to change 3 toxic aoe abilities (limbo, ember and banshee) than rework whole matchmaking. Equinox doesnt get the hate because she has to work for that dmg, thats the main difference here. There are ways to make them good, scaling dps skills but thats up to DE what they will do. Let me give you example : WoF > Enemies burn, losing 15% of their health (current! not max) per second, affected enemies take 20% more dmg (like bane mod) and grant 5hp when killed. Boom scaling dmg + team utility without insta killing everything on map.

 

In the end it doesnt matter, the point still stands. Those abilities are just as annoying as Limbos 4 and something has to be done about them.

I don't think you get it. The 3 powers you described as annoying is subjective. I like Limbo in Mobile Defense and Excavation, and i love having a Banshee on my team. But that is not the main point here. The main point is that if these 3 abilities are toned down, you will be back on the forums complaining Equinox and Octavia are too OP. You think if DE changes Ember, a veteran will just throw their hands up? No. They will go to no end to find something just as good, if not, better than what they had before. You can change abilities all you want, but you can't change the efficient playstyle. Changing Ember will still have you feeling like someone stole your participation in the mission, I garentee it.

1 hour ago, KokoroWish said:

Luckily, the really toxic AoE weapons have been brought into line (Simulor and Tonkor), so now they're all of limited scope, range, have self damage or require specialized play (even the whips and tonfa). It really is these particular types of passive engagement Warframe AoE abilities that are the stand-out problems in the game and have been for a long while. Hence Ember's previous WoF rework to try and bring it into line, with limited success.

How are they stand out problems? Players will always use the most effective method for killing, and changing AoE abilities just ruin the frame and everyone switches to the next best thing. This happened to Ash, and I barely see any Ash players anymore because it is just boring and unfun to spam 3 or use 4 twice to get some bleed procs.

[Ayumi14]

I am not an ember main and not played her long ago but she is not annoys me. Despite this the ember could get some type of tweaks or reworks in her abilities to be more useful on higher levels. Her 100 armor is okay a lot of frames have a weaker protection but those somehow can manage to survive.

The whole problem with this situation is probably the matchmaking and the group picks. Many peoples like to go back to play lowe level maps ove and over again for fun and increase the kill ratio and many peoples often go with efficient frames which can wipe out the whole map in no time. Other peoples cannot go play higher levels because they are not capable yet to do higher levels or simply they likes that level of difficulty. Ember is efficient frame for lower level missions because she can wipe them with ease but in my opinion she needs to be effective at higher levels. She doesn't needs nerf or any other frame currently but some needs changes and something need to be done with the matchmaking to every party could find it pleasible. 

The mastery rank is not helps in matchmaking because that not mean you want to play with peoples on the same level where you are if you are just wanted to go to lower levels to have fun. Also in lower levels a higher level player need to consider a point where he/she can be efficient but not spoil the others fun. There are moments when this works very wll but on public matches with random peoples and gears is totally unpredictable what will happens. Solution for this one is to play with friends or play solo but that means less affinity and peoples want to kill things aswell. Hopefully DE working on a personal difficulity changer in game or a game mode which let you increase or decrease the power level of enemies so you can play how you like it.

The affinity sharing is nice but that is not the answer to peoples whom want participate in the match because the whole game is made to kill things so killing is means basically the fun and participation if you play endless missions. You can play other types if you wish to support your team in other ways. Many peoples like to be carried others like to carry and others again want to everyone the same stats and effort. If I encounter a low level group on a mission then I usualy do my job but let others to get kills because I know what I am capable to do with certain frames and builds. Other times I just exploring the maps and looting because that also can reward me with some extras.

Embers and other frames with non scaling abilities need to scal infinite or need a scale level just saying a number - lvl 100 where the abilities without any mod added could works well and after you need the mods and better tactics or gear combinations to be effective.

 

[Hypernaut1]

2 hours ago, KokoroWish said:

Luckily, the really toxic AoE weapons have been brought into line (Simulor and Tonkor), so now they're all of limited scope, range, have self damage or require specialized play (even the whips and tonfa). It really is these particular types of passive engagement Warframe AoE abilities that are the stand-out problems in the game and have been for a long while. Hence Ember's previous WoF rework to try and bring it into line, with limited success.

Lol, no. An Ignis or amprex with added range would probably kill faster than an Ember in low levels.

I find it hilarious that on the forum, Ash is considered weak and Ember is considered OP. When in fact is practically the opposite when playing actual difficult content

 

[dreadgame]

Add a filter frame option if it's necessary, just don't change her.

[Lady_Symphonia]

I personally have no problem with the ember. If I cannot kill in a same level with an ember in my team then I just accept to be carried.

Edited January 11, 2018 by Lady_Symphonia

[Greenshockclaw]

On 1/9/2018 at 12:17 PM, --Q--Voltage said:

I hate veterans because they play more efficiently and don't slow down for newer players in pubs. 

/s

The problem is that frames like ember can effectively shut down the rest of their team with the press of a button. if someone hops into a pub for whatever reason, they expect to fight enemies for 20 or so minutes, not do nothing just because one guy decided to be "efficient." People hate ember for the same reason people have always hated limbo: they can take the fun out of the game with little to no effort.

Edited January 11, 2018 by Greenshockclaw
double posted, whoops

[Greenshockclaw]

On 1/9/2018 at 12:17 PM, --Q--Voltage said:

I hate veterans because they play more efficiently and don't slow down for newer players in pubs. 

/s

The problem is that frames like ember can effectively shut down the rest of their team with the press of a button. if someone hops into a pub for whatever reason, they expect to fight enemies for 20 or so minutes, not do nothing just because one guy decided to be "efficient." People hate ember for the same reason people have always hated limbo: they can take the fun out of the game with little to no effort.

[Voltage]

2 hours ago, Greenshockclaw said:

The problem is that frames like ember can effectively shut down the rest of their team with the press of a button. if someone hops into a pub for whatever reason, they expect to fight enemies for 20 or so minutes, not do nothing just because one guy decided to be "efficient." People hate ember for the same reason people have always hated limbo: they can take the fun out of the game with little to no effort.

People are hating on players who like to be efficient and blaming Ember for the playstyle. The Forums always blame the wrong thing. People blamed Telos Boltace when the thing to blame was Maiming Strike. Thus, we now have whips meta instead of a Tonfa. People blaming Ember have no understanding of the problem here. The issue is that a group of players are getting annoyed over a playstyle which is a matchmaking issue. This is because you will never make an efficient player use something clunky and inefficient for the mission. This mentality is why Telos Boltace was nerfed when it wasn't the problem, the modding was. This happens to all the loot caves from DEs perspective. XP farms are a symptom of a poor affinity system, and when Viver became Draco, and Draco became Hydron/Berehynia, it shows that DE does not get what the root problem was. The root problem here is NOT Ember, but matchmaking.

 

Edited January 11, 2018 by --Q--Voltage

[RayxAyanami]

On 1/10/2018 at 4:48 PM, ----Legacy---- said:

I don't mind crowd control as long as it doesn't disrupt my game and keeps the targets in place. Ember knocks enemies down (moving their hitbox to the ground) while limbo freezes not only the enemies but anything that's flying when stasis is cast. Frames like rhino, volt, harrow, nyx, slow nova, etc. offer a way more pleasant cc since they won't force you into melee (like limbo) and won't force enemies to the ground without previous warning (like ember).

Most veterans can wipe an entire map with Volt or Rhino and you will actually feel more left out than with an ember or banshee, Trust me. As a volt main, wiping an entire map is far easier than on an ember. Volt has insane CC and dps, is sort of invincible if played right while being as fast as sonic. Don't even get me started on how "invincible" Rhino, Nyx and harrow are, although the latter two do require some skill. Nova and Banshee can turn the entire mission into a game of "Candy Crush" . So tell me, compared to all of these "Balanced" frames, how does ember stack up.

[(XBOX)weedyodaa]

21 hours ago, ThorienKELL said:

I wasn't aware that she gets the "hate" she probably doesn't but stupid threads like this may actually be a catalyst for nerf so I dislike and discourage them. 

 

Setting asside your own personal issue with the matter and your aggressive tone, I propose you with a though you may consider. It's better to acknowledge the issue a bit, rather than ignore it entirely. I was promoting a rework in my previous post, and I decided to leave out the rest of what you said because it seemed like just a mere echo of what everyone else was proclaiming in the chat. 

I was here for one thing; an opinion, saying if she deserves the hate. All you promote is what everyone else is saying, telling me you've completely misconstrued my point, and I'm sure this post won't cause the end to Ember.Very rarely do I see a post about her, but I brought it apon myself, after personal experiences with not just newer players [who must've been carried to hydron, because that's what I mainly use her for], but higher-tier players, around or close to the MR 20's region actually complain about me using ember, and when others used her, they would also occasionally get called out. 

[shoopypit]

Yes. Super boring earlier levels. Just follow.ember around picking up stuff. And when I can finally kill things? Ember just runs around dying, running out of energy, whining about leaving. And resorting to pointing a finger at an equally boring to play beside frame is a no go. 

[ThorienKELL]

2 hours ago, (Xbox One)Mythical Warden said:

Setting asside your own personal issue with the matter and your aggressive tone, I propose you with a though you may consider. It's better to acknowledge the issue a bit, rather than ignore it entirely.

It's not an issue unless you make one for yourself. Ember is perfect as she is, one of most beloved and most played and most expensive (prime) warframes. You do not to repair thing that works, as would hardware repairmen say. I use her constantly and I never got any comment on her and if I do, nobody has to complain in PUG on anything really. You dislike it? Your problem. As for your recommendations: I'm an old guy, I've seen things like that happen million times. I do not take advises from players to developers seriously. Most of people, like 99% have no clue how difficult and demanding game design actually is - leave that to professionals. If you wanted to discuss potential improvements, you should titled your post differently. Not "hey all the people hate ember, maybe we should do something about it ... wink ...wink"