Mesa Deluxe Skin

[Cubewano]

28 minutes ago, Rekkou said:

That is a very bad argument, if i say that this game can sell more if it was FPS in WW or FPS pvp hero shooter. Then i guess we all have to compensate the money DE might've lose for making this game a sci-fi third person shooter? DE is not naive, they already know their demographics and the expected profits margins. They made their decision after knowing those factors and not because they are just making whatever they want and expecting the profits to sky rockets.

Not really, we don't know the degree of success (if it would be greater or less) DE would have if they went that area, so we can't argue compensation for them appealing to this genre instead. Asking for them to flat out make their product less appealing though to their consumers, we know the direction that goes. You are asking them to make less money for you, and satisfy less customers for you, that's an entirely selfish stance that isn't at all beneficial in the whole scheme of things. 

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

16 hours ago, Xzorn said:

They went from Western style cowgirl to Spanish Conquistador. Huh?

See to me the Delexue feels more like Brotherhood of the Wolf.

Which in away is more of european gunfighter. I like it and I want to see what the Devil Ranger helm looks like on it. My bloodborn cos play will finally be on point. IMO. 

or even some Assassins Creed. Now if I could only rock Zoren and Bolto. Maybe we will get duel Zoren Prime. And I would rock Akbolto Prime and Duel Zoren Prime. 

Edited January 22, 2018 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[SaferSaviour]

6 hours ago, Cubewano said:

The problem is the trend in disapproval for the skins, more and more people are taking issues with their design direction. Yes you can't appeal to everyone, but you should be trying to appeal to largest portion you can, and they are moving further and further from that direction it seems. People used to be generally excited for these kinds of things, now we're lucky if a design doesn't spark an out right march against it. 

I'm more excited now than I was. I like IgnisDei's male skins a lot, but no more than Nekros Irkalla (Nekros is my fave frame though, so, yeah, I have a bias). I don't like his female skins much at all. All the helmets have the same basic shape, the legs always taper into tiny feet (or no feet in the case of Trinity), and all of them look pretty delicate in concept. Doesn't appeal to me.

While I didn't care too much for Ember's deluxe skin, I like Saryn's a lot and this Mesa one looks to be heading in a decent direction too. The Octavia concept they showed looks ouright incredible.

[Cubewano]

3 minutes ago, SaferSaviour said:

I'm more excited now than I was. I like IgnisDei's male skins a lot, but no more than Nekros Irkalla (Nekros is my fave frame though, so, yeah, I have a bias). I don't like his female skins much at all. All the helmets have the same basic shape, the legs always taper into tiny feet (or no feet in the case of Trinity), and all of them look pretty delicate in concept. Doesn't appeal to me.

While I didn't care too much for Ember's deluxe skin, I like Saryn's a lot and this Mesa one looks to be heading in a decent direction too. The Octavia concept they showed looks ouright incredible.

It's wonderful if you enjoy the direction of the designs, better some than none, but unfortunately that doesn't change things for those who don't. 

[Rekkou]

1 minute ago, Cubewano said:

Not really, we don't know the degree of success (if it would be greater or less) DE would have if they went that area, so we can't argue compensation for them appealing to this genre instead. Asking for them to flat out make their product less appealing though to their consumers, we know the direction that goes. You are asking them to make less money for you, and satisfy less customers for you, that's an entirely selfish stance that isn't at all beneficial in the whole scheme of things. 

The arguments are pointless either way, you're trying to use profits as both carrots and sticks while DE is evidently not interested in that carrots and willing to take the sticks. And i'm not the one asking or indirectly threatening them with profits loss to do what i want, i'm merely supporting their choice to be true to themselves. I don't see anything selfish in that, so you can't use that to make me feel bad either.

[SaferSaviour]

1 minute ago, Cubewano said:

It's wonderful if you enjoy the direction of the designs, better some than none, but unfortunately that doesn't change things for those who don't. 

Exactly. Worse for me, better for you; better for me, worse for you. It's swings and roundabouts. Chances are that if this changes into something you'd like, it stops being something I like. Or if they somehow strike a balance between our preferences, there's a third person who now wants to burn DE to the ground.

I still want them to split or join the longcoat, but that's splitting hairs at this point.

[Cubewano]

1 minute ago, Rekkou said:

The arguments are pointless either way, you're trying to use profits as both carrots and sticks while DE is evidently not interested in that carrots and willing to take the sticks. And i'm not the one asking or indirectly threatening them with profits loss to do what i want, i'm merely supporting their choice to be true to themselves. I don't see anything selfish in that, so you can't use that to make me feel bad either.

What makes you think DE isn't interested in profit? They're a company, it's childish to think they don't care about their game being successful, or about making the product marketable. The way this game is designed reflects this. And nobody is threatening them with profit loss here, someone is however asking for them to take a loss for nothing other than the sake of self interests, and don't try to pretend it is anything other than that. Your argument wasn't let DE pursue whatever artstyle they want, it was that they should appeal to the minority to which I'm assuming you feel you are a part of, you were arguing based around your position not de's. You don't get to suddenly change your argument now. 

[Cubewano]

4 minutes ago, SaferSaviour said:

Exactly. Worse for me, better for you; better for me, worse for you. It's swings and roundabouts. Chances are that if this changes into something you'd like, it stops being something I like. Or if they somehow strike a balance between our preferences, there's a third person who now wants to burn DE to the ground.

I still want them to split or join the longcoat, but that's splitting hairs at this point.

Why do you assume it's better for me? I could very well like recent designs. This isn't about my singular interest, or anyone's for the matter, it's about the broader level of consumers supporting this game, and how to best accommodate as many as they can. It doesn't matter whether I like or dislike the direction they are going, I'm a single person in a crowd of many, it's about the whole and how to best appeal to the many outside just you or me. Whether I like the direction or not, It would be naive to say the direction being taken is a benefit for the consumers as a whole, and in turn, it would be rather selfish to say the direction should continue purely because it benefits me over that whole. 

Understand I have liked some recent deluxes, even one that has been fairly dissented upon, but that doesn't mean I'd say to keep it if it could be traded for a more popular option, even against my benefit, because it wouldn't be right of me to argue I deserve something to benefit myself at the cost of a larger number being left out. 

[Rekkou]

1 minute ago, Cubewano said:

What makes you think DE isn't interested in profit? They're a company, it's childish to think they don't care about their game being successful, or about making the product marketable. The way this game is designed reflects this. And nobody is threatening them with profit loss here, someone is however asking for them to take a loss for nothing other than the sake of self interests, and don't try to pretend it is anything other than that. Your argument wasn't let DE pursue whatever artstyle they want, it was that they should appeal to the minority to which I'm assuming you feel you are a part of, you were arguing based around your position not de's. You don't get to suddenly change your argument now. 

Refer back to my arguments about demographics and profits margins. All company needs profits, but good company won't place it above anything else. And my arguments changes based on what is being argued, and so far nothing i've said contradicts me. I support DE, if they want to cater to minority then i will support them. You can't force my arguments just because you're losing the arguments.

[Articusofsanctus]

The design yells swordsmen to me. Well then again Mesa was the one who shown off the Destreza a while back, pairing it with the deluxe skin it should look rather nice. 

[Cubewano]

2 minutes ago, Rekkou said:

Refer back to my arguments about demographics and profits margins. All company needs profits, but good company won't place it above anything else. And my arguments changes based on what is being argued, and so far nothing i've said contradicts me. I support DE, if they want to cater to minority then i will support them. You can't force my arguments just because you're losing the arguments.

There isn't anything to refer back to. And that isn't how a discussion works, you don't get to take a stance then midway decide that is no longer the stance you took. This conversation was never about artistic freedom, so stop trying to now spin it into one. You said the minority should get appealed to because apparently the majority is by some immeasurable stretch of logic already taken care of and no longer deserves such attention, you can either continue to try and defend that logic, or admit it is wrong and move on. Either way nothing about this has me losing the argument, the fact you are trying to change the topic already suggests you are backed into a corner. 

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

39 minutes ago, SaferSaviour said:

Exactly. Worse for me, better for you; better for me, worse for you. It's swings and roundabouts. Chances are that if this changes into something you'd like, it stops being something I like. Or if they somehow strike a balance between our preferences, there's a third person who now wants to burn DE to the ground.

I still want them to split or join the longcoat, but that's splitting hairs at this point.

And with Just the right Syadana would set it off. 

[Rekkou]

Just now, Cubewano said:

There isn't anything to refer back to. And that isn't how a discussion works, you don't get to take a stance then midway decide that is no longer the stance you took. This conversation was never about artistic freedom, so stop trying to now spin it into one. You said the minority should get appealed to because apparently the majority is by some immeasurable stretch of logic already taken care of and no longer deserves such attention, you can either continue to try and defend that logic, or admit it is wrong and move on. Either way nothing about this has me losing the argument, the fact you are trying to change the topic already suggests you are backed into a corner. 

Again, I argue what is relevant at that point and it won't invalidate my other argument just because it's different. Forcing how one should argue, forcing their arguments and intentionally ignore the point they made however, is not a form of discussion or arguments. It's basically just forceful dictating. And i never change the topic, i keep making arguments that is relevant to your arguments. You're the first to start meta arguments about arguments and forcing me to invalidate my standing just because it's different than the previous one.

i'm done here. This is enough to see that continuing this arguments will only results in you start throwing tantrum and mod deleting the whole arguments. 

[Cubewano]

17 minutes ago, Rekkou said:

Again, I argue what is relevant at that point and it won't invalidate my other argument just because it's different. Forcing how one should argue, forcing their arguments and intentionally ignore the point they made however, is not a form of discussion or arguments. It's basically just forceful dictating. And i never change the topic, i keep making arguments that is relevant to your arguments. You're the first to start meta arguments about arguments and forcing me to invalidate my standing just because it's different than the previous one.

i'm done here. This is enough to see that continuing this arguments will only results in you start throwing tantrum and mod deleting the whole arguments. 

Changing the topic is not remaining relevant, likewise with referring me to text that doesn't exist. And all I have been "forcing" you to do is remain on topic. It in turn is not ignoring your points, if the points you were trying to offer had nothing to do with the topic at hand, not that I didn't address when something was off topic as well. Everything you brought up I addressed, including the pointing out of when you tried to change this conversation from appealing to a minority to apparently being about artistic freedom. Frankly I can't see how I'm the first person to tell you to stay on topic, but if that's how life has treated you then sorry for that. 

I'd say I'm disappointed but frankly I expected us to arrive here sooner of later, most people struggle with admitting wrong, seems you fit that bill as well. Sorry if you feel so pent up.

Edited January 22, 2018 by Cubewano

[Xzorn]

6 hours ago, TsukuyomiNoGeki said:

Because deluxe skins are ment to create an alternate universe for the frame and drastically change their appearance.

Not every skin should be like ember's vermilion wich is a straight up upgrade of her base model (indeed she would look like this if she would ne released in 2017) and wich i refuse to assign a "deluxe" mark.

 

Key word is appearance.... Not theme.

Loki > Naive (Still Rogue Style)
Frost > Harkar (Straight up Skyrim)
Chroma > Dynasty (Chinese Dragon)
Valkyr > Gersemi (Prequel Valkyr)
Ash > Koga (Anime Ninja to the max)
Rhino > Palantine (Better Rhino)
Trinity > Strego (Elegant Lobster)

All the Deluxe skins play off the original theme of the frame. Mesa's completely changes it.

.....and we don't speak of Ember Deluxe. It's painfully obvious that IgnusDei was behind majority of their best skins.

Even Mesa's name is an American term for a type of Western Landmass and her Tennogen helm plays to Western influence. In purest form she's a gunslinger and nothing about that skin says gunslinger to me. She doesn't have to be western to be a gunslinger. Her Demon Hunter tennogen did this by giving her a vampire hunter look.

(I don't dislike the skin at all. I just don't think it belongs on Mesa. Changing the helm would do a lot for making the skin work)

[takeshiblue]

5 hours ago, (Xbox One)RDeschain82 said:

See to me the Delexue feels more like Brotherhood of the Wolf.

Which in away is more of european gunfighter. I like it and I want to see what the Devil Ranger helm looks like on it. My bloodborn cos play will finally be on point. IMO. 

or even some Assassins Creed. Now if I could only rock Zoren and Bolto. Maybe we will get duel Zoren Prime. And I would rock Akbolto Prime and Duel Zoren Prime. 

both of these look cooler than the design we got but i agree to dual zoren prime and i'd hope her prime look somewhat like a duster as you call it like the trigun trench coat or bloodborne coat and mask with hat or that bloodborne cosplay on point video i really really like that its cool now you have convinced me that i want it

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

32 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 

Key word is appearance.... Not theme.

Loki > Naive (Still Rogue Style)
Frost > Harkar (Straight up Skyrim)
Chroma > Dynasty (Chinese Dragon)
Valkyr > Gersemi (Prequel Valkyr)
Ash > Koga (Anime Ninja to the max)
Rhino > Palantine (Better Rhino)
Trinity > Strego (Elegant Lobster)

All the Deluxe skins play off the original theme of the frame. Mesa's completely changes it.

.....and we don't speak of Ember Deluxe. It's painfully obvious that IgnusDei was behind majority of their best skins.

Even Mesa's name is an American term for a type of Western Landmass and her Tennogen helm plays to Western influence. In purest form she's a gunslinger and nothing about that skin says gunslinger to me. She doesn't have to be western to be a gunslinger. Her Demon Hunter tennogen did this by giving her a vampire hunter look.

(I don't dislike the skin at all. I just don't think it belongs on Mesa. Changing the helm would do a lot for making the skin work)

Let me just say Mesa is also considered to be the vagabond, a out cast, and not just a gunslinger. just saying. And I do agree I would like a 3 point hat.

Edited January 22, 2018 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[RannaJana]

I haven't problems with the skin but the helmet is a bit less like mesa. Also the deluxe skins by looks could be a new different frames aswell. 

[RogueVoxel]

Man this is so much better than that ember one they butchered, I might get this one

[Korusagi]

Its already 3D modeled, it wont change anymore. Don't like it, don't buy it.

I knew it seemed familiar!... _{There was a game called Granado Espada, which died, revived with other name, died again...}

[Xzorn]

11 minutes ago, (Xbox One)RDeschain82 said:

Let me just say Mesa is also considered to be the vagabond, a out cast, and not just a gunslinger. just saying. And I do agree I would like a 3 point hat.

 

In game it says "With a steady hand and quick reflexes, Mesa is a true Gunslinger"

In her original release U15.5 forum post "Mesa: The Gunslinger"

Gunslinger is put front and center as her theme. The video profile is the only place Vagabond & Outcast are ever mentioned and It's mostly playing further into her western influence as most western protagonists are outcasts, vagabonds and loners. It's very strange to focus on character details and ignore the spotlight theme.

[MonkeyBunny]

I dont like the skin personally, Doesn't really look like Mesa, If you would tell me this is a Zyphr Deluxe skin I would think its more fitting. Just my opion tho 

[ThorienKELL]

Just wanted to say that I'm not great fan of this redesign. It's weirdly unthematic. Where is this gunslinger look with maverick helmet that wears trench-coat went? This looks more like ivara or zephyr. Couldn't they make it look more like union solider or something?

Saying that I have bought all skins will probably get this one too but I may omit the helmet. 

[--RV--arm4geddon-117]

Don't like this skin, another case where i love the original 10 times better... gotta hope the model for her prime variant turns out better since i don't run WF through steam and can't buy the tennogen alternatives lol...

[-Temp0-]

Цитата

Design teaches you to make something suitable for its purpose.

Yes and no. It also teaches you to create something which people would enjoy using - both from a practical view and as something that is pleasurable to look at.

And since skins in a video games hardly have any practical purposes we're left only with how they actually look. And since you create skins for players, absolutely ignoring long-time feedback is not practical and pretty much wrong. While it's true that players aren't customers but no other group will actuall use something you created in this case. And yes I don't know what's up with DE's "well we're done, we're not channging it" attitude when even much bigger companies are known for changing something in cosmetics that people don't like (like Blizzard not so long time ago changed one of the skins because it got negative feedback from the players)

Цитата

but if they still keep selling the items you don't want then evidently it's not a problem for them

And that's where their failure lies. You keep creating ugly skins and ugly syandanas, because let's say 100 people would still buy then, when you could've had 1000 players buying it easily if you would actually care. And it even goes for primed cosmetics. I don't see a single reason pretending to work hard on something, calling it "prime" and selling for real money if in return you will barely get anything and people would not like something you created (which no matter how som deny it is a big part of design) even if we'll forget the payment issue since it seem designers get paid regardless so they have little to no interest trying.