The new ember isnt that bad, but only if...

[Skaleek]

On 2/9/2018 at 8:15 PM, SteamlordD said:

Her trashcan passive could be changed to give her some kind of survivability instead, like an Overheat gauge that fills as she does heat damage, drains over time, and provides damage resistance, promoting active play (which was the goal of the WoF nerf) and providing sustainability.

Most people dont know this... but you can use that trashcan passive of hers to keep yourself with unlimited mana.

On Topic, I think they should change the nerf to half her range to only 25% of her range lost. I feel that the nerf may have been a little heavy handed in the range department. I also like the idea of some sort of overheat ability coming back, why not just make it so once you're at "100%" on wof, you get damage reduction? Simple, can build off it and make it more dynamic.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Skaleek

[Liutax]

Amber is getting nerfed?Back to Excalibur i guess

[Terrornaut]

1 hour ago, Ardhanarishvara said:

[ . . . ]

Given that Ember is Zenurik-unfriendly, I use her with Naramon, which only supercharges Jat Kusar's crits via Blood Rush, massively improving its damage output on top of her abilities. Jat Kusar does slash procs as part of its combo stances, allowing it to bypass armour somewhat, and Naramon Dashes can allow me to do finishers as necessary, for which heat damage is supremely effective against Grineer Cloned Flesh. Furthermore, any slash procs or heat procs made by Jat Kusar while Life Striking will regenerate health even when not life striking.

TL;DR In a way, Ember's current passive, for me at least, opens up more active play and sustainability simultaneously. Ultimately, I can't help but defend the passive, as being able to trigger it on purpose has made all the difference in the world. Yes, it encourages turning World on Fire off now and then, but I really don't think that's the end of the world when Fire Blast has a huge area panic and her 1 will now essentially panic a small group of enemies twice in a row.

-----

This is not all to say that Ember does not still need changes, but ultimately I find that Fire Blast is consistently the weakest part of her kit even taking its minor cc into consideration, not her passive or her WoF. Personally speaking, would much rather that the expanding blast wave scorch the floor so as to deal damage, much like Oberon's Hallowed Ground, which would allow Ember to more effectively DoT an area.

I've also tried this build style, going for I forget, 12-18 sec of heat status (continuous misery and hunter status mod) on top of vile acccel and corrosive+heat with more on heat. Even tried with Jat K, naramon, and other weapons.  It can be effective, but I personally hate having to ditch a primary for the boost to power strength and energy regen. The energy regen is nice, and really you can just go into operator to negate the heat damage dot to yourself.  I just prefer to have an armor stripping secondary and a wide area aoe primary. Or vice versa.

 

Melee is extremely effective with Ember, though accidentally going finisher mode and dying mid finisher on trash mobs is pretty annoying.  Is a shame that Unairu is totally busted because it /should/ be very good for Ember, but I just can't get sundering dash to apply sometimes and without a visual indicator, knowing when it really applies is...yeah.  It looks like mobs are hit, they go flying, but their armor won't always be reduced (2 dashes should go down 90% of total).  I will probably go back to Naramon, or try Vazarin to invulnerabilitize (xD) my Ember all the time since they boosted the dash up to 5 or 7 sec, but hmm.

Ultimately yeah, fireblast has always been and is always the worst part of her kit, and they do not seem to believe this, see this, or maybe just flat out don't care.  The +50% heat damage per cast of FB is...@_@.  It doesn't resolve problems with FB or help her kit significantly.

 

19 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

I also like the idea of some sort of overheat ability coming back, why not just make it so once you're at "100%" on wof, you get damage reduction? Simple, can build off it and make it more dynamic

It is not going to happen. Please stop. They have said they don't want it on her, they aren't going to do it. If Fireball is still horrible after all these years, why would they not deal with that and go and add something they expressly said isn't going to happen. They don't want DR on her. They may not even want survivability for her...which...lol, but whatever.  We have to figure out different ways to help her out that don't involve tankiness and DR...because they aren't putting DR on her.

[Skaleek]

6 hours ago, Terrornaut said:

It is not going to happen. Please stop. They have said they don't want it on her, they aren't going to do it. If Fireball is still horrible after all these years, why would they not deal with that and go and add something they expressly said isn't going to happen. They don't want DR on her. They may not even want survivability for her...which...lol, but whatever.  We have to figure out different ways to help her out that don't involve tankiness and DR...because they aren't putting DR on her.

Can you show me where they've stated that they dont want to give her DR? I must've missed it. We don't have to figure out anything. She needs better survivability, why do you think people keep suggesting DR and other forms of survivability buffs, just cause? Cause her damage is meager compared to most other damage frames.

Edited February 17, 2018 by Skaleek

[(PSN)OmegaSlayer]

1 hour ago, Ardhanarishvara said:

Issue with that being that 2x damage on WoF scales with your power strength, meaning +100% power strength will be less effective for WoF's damage output in particular and only be truly useful for making Accelerant even stronger. Besides, she already has access to a built-in power strength boost.

I'd like to preface this reply with the information that I, too, used to believe that Ember's passive was ridiculous throwaway garbage. However, that's no longer the case.

Ordinarily you'd expect trash + trash to = worse than trash, right? But the fun thing is, Javlok + Ember's Passive = one of the best passive effects in the entire game. Javlok's primary fire having an aoe self-damage component and being 100% heat, if you stack enough status chance and status duration mods, you can get a very high chance to set yourself on fire for 14 seconds, not even doing enough damage to breach shields. That's 14 seconds of +35% power strength, +60% for 5 seconds if you also have Growing Power on and shoot an enemy. That's also 14 seconds of 10 energy regen per second. Personally I'm also working on rolling a riven for +status duration so I can be on fire for even longer, preferably also with -damage. I could easily imagine it reaching 20 seconds.

To give you an idea of the difference in strength made by having Ember's passive and Growing Power both active thanks to Javlok, that takes my Flash Accelerant from +90% Added Heat and 4.53x Heat Damage Dultiplier with a Rank 8 Blind Rage, to +120% AH and 6.04x HDM. I rather like to use these two factors with Jat Kusar, personally. This has allowed me to phase out multiple ability strength mods from my build, and focus more on other factors, like survivability. (As an added bonus, each damage tick of World on Fire has an 83% chance to re-apply panic on affected enemies, CCing them rather well even without Firequake.)

Thanks to her passive and thanks to Javlok, my Ember is a lot less squishy than usual. In between encounters, she's constantly regenerating energy at a ridiculously high pace and relying less on mods for power strength. Vitality, Rage, Primed Flow and Quick Thinking all allow her a much larger effective health pool than would normally be expected, and this is also paired with Life Strike on Jat Kusar. Primed Continuity, Stretch, Flash Accelerant, Growing Power and Blind Rage help me to keep the damage up. Streamlined Form makes both movement and Javlok access a whole lot smoother.

Given that Ember is Zenurik-unfriendly, I use her with Naramon, which only supercharges Jat Kusar's crits via Blood Rush, massively improving its damage output on top of her abilities. Jat Kusar does slash procs as part of its combo stances, allowing it to bypass armour somewhat, and Naramon Dashes can allow me to do finishers as necessary, for which heat damage is supremely effective against Grineer Cloned Flesh. Furthermore, any slash procs or heat procs made by Jat Kusar while Life Striking will regenerate health even when not life striking.

TL;DR In a way, Ember's current passive, for me at least, opens up more active play and sustainability simultaneously. Ultimately, I can't help but defend the passive, as being able to trigger it on purpose has made all the difference in the world. Yes, it encourages turning World on Fire off now and then, but I really don't think that's the end of the world when Fire Blast has a huge area panic and her 1 will now essentially panic a small group of enemies twice in a row.

-----

This is not all to say that Ember does not still need changes, but ultimately I find that Fire Blast is consistently the weakest part of her kit even taking its minor cc into consideration, not her passive or her WoF. Personally speaking, would much rather that the expanding blast wave scorch the floor so as to deal damage, much like Oberon's Hallowed Ground, which would allow Ember to more effectively DoT an area.

When you have to purposedly build a weapon to do self-damage to keep a power/passive in full control, something is horribly wrong design wise.

While I applaud your creativity, that's totally counter intuitive and it's just forcing the players to exploit the system.

I also think that it's worth to mention that every build fits almost only its creator.

I often see great builds around or on youtube, and sometimes I try to replicate them, but they just don't fit me, because every player has a different perception of space, movement and strategic place in said space, aggressivity and sense of danger, so they prioritize different enemies.

[BornWithTeeth]

Anyway, just bear this in mind:

 

DE, on Ember: "We wanted to reinforce her being a fragile but high damage* glass cannon!"
             * _{'High damage' = a couple of thousand non-scaling heat damage.}

 

Mesa: *Is an indestructible bullet-goddess who can actually, literally kill 99.9% of anything in the game by pointing her ult at it for a couple of seconds.*

Octavia: *Is invisible, spawns an AoE which combines a taunt CC effect with scaling damage.*

 

 

Please remember this example of DE's design logic. Never forget it.

[Ardhanarishvara]

As an added bit of info to consider for my previous post: The Javlok self-damage / Naramon-finisher-centric playstyle for Ember now plays INCREDIBLY well with Armour-granting Arcanes, allowing Ember a potential avenue for tankiness. Self-damaging for the heat proc can and will trigger Arcane Guardian (20% chance to trigger +600 armour for 20 seconds at rank 4), and using naramon finishers on stuff like heavy gunners and the like can and will trigger Arcane Ultimatum (100% chance to trigger +600 armour for 20 seconds at rank 4).

19 minutes ago, (PS4)OmegaSlayer said:

When you have to purposedly build a weapon to do self-damage to keep a power/passive in full control, something is horribly wrong design wise.

Do recall that Vex Armour's old iteration was a thing for literal years.

19 minutes ago, (PS4)OmegaSlayer said:

While I applaud your creativity, that's totally counter intuitive and it's just forcing the players to exploit the system.

Exploiting the system is... typically what these kinds of games boil down to, yes. Exploiting every resource within reach to become as powerful as possible. As far as I'm concerned, it's no different from using Venka Prime with little more than combo duration mods for anything that scales off of melee combo multipliers (Landslide, Bladestorm).

Passives, at inception, were not intended to be anything more than a nice bonus. It's the rare warframe that has a truly exceptional passive worth building off of. This is one such one of them, even if it does take a little finagling. The only thing holding it back from being truly standout is that there's really only one weapon that can take advantage of it. If there were a self-damaging, heat-only secondary, I'd just as readily sing the virtues of that as well. As it stands however, with the beam weapon rework coming down the line, I can see Atomos or Cycron becoming much more valid.

[robbybe01234]

35 minutes ago, Ardhanarishvara said:

As an added bit of info to consider for my previous post: The Javlok self-damage / Naramon-finisher-centric playstyle for Ember now plays INCREDIBLY well with Armour-granting Arcanes, allowing Ember a potential avenue for tankiness. Self-damaging for the heat proc can and will trigger Arcane Guardian (20% chance to trigger +600 armour for 20 seconds at rank 4), and using naramon finishers on stuff like heavy gunners and the like can and will trigger Arcane Ultimatum (100% chance to trigger +600 armour for 20 seconds at rank 4).

Do recall that Vex Armour's old iteration was a thing for literal years.

Exploiting the system is... typically what these kinds of games boil down to, yes. Exploiting every resource within reach to become as powerful as possible. As far as I'm concerned, it's no different from using Venka Prime with little more than combo duration mods for anything that scales off of melee combo multipliers (Landslide, Bladestorm).

Passives, at inception, were not intended to be anything more than a nice bonus. It's the rare warframe that has a truly exceptional passive worth building off of. This is one such one of them, even if it does take a little finagling. The only thing holding it back from being truly standout is that there's really only one weapon that can take advantage of it. If there were a self-damaging, heat-only secondary, I'd just as readily sing the virtues of that as well. As it stands however, with the beam weapon rework coming down the line, I can see Atomos or Cycron becoming much more valid.

I can agree with this line of thinking.  But a more accessible way to exploit that would be preferred. 

A frame that can in some way exploit a system or effectively cheat against the enemies makes for a pretty good frame.  At this time I think Ember plays too fair.  She should be given back someway to cheat against the enemies or even just play less fair.   

edit: regarding the DR.  Did they say no to this in a dev stream? I don't remember reading this anywhere.  Let's just say hypothetically that they won't do it.  Ember would instead benefit from a way put out more damage.  JUST MOAARRR!  Her kit already suffers from the core damage system and now with the crippling range decay.  You just have to give the kit a way to break the heat limit or something. 

Edited February 16, 2018 by robbybe01234

[Hydrium]

They made her 4 require more thought to use and that's been consistent with how they've made newer frames. They have a lot less fire and forget abilities, not everyone will like it but I'm glad they're trying something new with her.

[Terrornaut]

55 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Anyway, just bear this in mind:

DE, on Ember: "We wanted to reinforce her being a fragile but high damage* glass cannon!"
             * _{'High damage' = a couple of thousand non-scaling heat damage.}

Mesa: *Is an indestructible bullet-goddess who can actually, literally kill 99.9% of anything in the game by pointing her ult at it for a couple of seconds.*

Octavia: *Is invisible, spawns an AoE which combines a taunt CC effect with scaling damage.*

Please remember this example of DE's design logic. Never forget it.

Yep.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The world may never know.

As far as self damage Ember with arcanes, I've considered those armor ones just as much as arcane energize and just dumping efficiency and duration and going for pure power and utility/survival mods...and even though I may have 2300+ hours in WF, I have never been able to bring myself to waste time on gathering arcanes.  It may be a little bit better now, or loads better, now that arcanes are moved to Eidolons, but can I even play Ember or Zeph without getting agravation from people doing an Eid hunt? Always obstacles @_@

I considered health conversion but health orbs never seem to drop for me as Ember, but, energy orbs are always plentiful.

[Ardhanarishvara]

6 minutes ago, Terrornaut said:

Yep.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The world may never know.

As far as self damage Ember with arcanes, I've considered those armor ones just as much as arcane energize and just dumping efficiency and duration and going for pure power and utility/survival mods...and even though I may have 2300+ hours in WF, I have never been able to bring myself to waste time on gathering arcanes.  It may be a little bit better now, or loads better, now that arcanes are moved to Eidolons, but can I even play Ember or Zeph without getting agravation from people doing an Eid hunt? Always obstacles @_@

I considered health conversion but health orbs never seem to drop for me as Ember, but, energy orbs are always plentiful.

Well as it happens, Guardian and Ultimatum both drop from Gantulyst. Personally I don't touch efficiency on Ember anymore, the life strike rage shenanigans just work too well for higher level content.

[Vanille]

5 hours ago, Noble_One said:

youre in survival where blue orbs drop like crazy... of course you didnt fall under 500.

Other missions are done extremely quick and you don't stay for a while and won't even use all your energy, where's the issue here.

[Threa]

Oh holy Lotus, yes, please. I would welcome this change. 

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

On 2/9/2018 at 8:21 PM, Duduminador said:

People are still gonna whyne a lot about this, it's like fighting a storm with a fan. But I'm droping my 2 cents anyways.

Get over the power domination. It was bad design. Put simply like that. This "Power fantasy" got completly out of control. If anything, all the nerfs are coming way too late in Warframe's life.

On no game out there are you supposed to have abilities that defy the relevance of any other damage output. Warframe specially falls on that group, you have other abilities. other weapons. All exagerated types of synergies. And people compare abilities and weapon damage as completly irrelevant things and forget that you are supposed to use all of them to defeat your mobs.

YES! THANK YOU!  People seem to forget this ALL the time when they "rate" or "compare" frames and abilities.  Like "Oh, Volt can't OHKO now with his 1"  I DONT CARE, I HAVE A CRIT GALATINE PRIME! lol   

I dunno where people's heads are at these days.  It's like they just want to burn DE to the ground for no reason, complaining about all nerfs, buffs, whatever DE does to try to fix things and enhance our (FREE!) gameplay experience.

[Noble_One]

On 2/16/2018 at 7:25 PM, Kiwinille said:

Other missions are done extremely quick and you don't stay for a while and won't even use all your energy, where's the issue here.

normally defense missions and higher tier missions. in defense missions blue orbs are less of a drop and for higher tier missions WoF doesnt help as when its at 100% you have to get closer to mobs than can normally down you in seconds. really ember yea was changed, but is is still used as a low level pub stomper as like and even a bigger risk to bring to high level content.

[Pippykins]

On 2/16/2018 at 11:54 AM, Ardhanarishvara said:

As an added bit of info to consider for my previous post: The Javlok self-damage / Naramon-finisher-centric playstyle for Ember now plays INCREDIBLY well with Armour-granting Arcanes, allowing Ember a potential avenue for tankiness. Self-damaging for the heat proc can and will trigger Arcane Guardian (20% chance to trigger +600 armour for 20 seconds at rank 4), and using naramon finishers on stuff like heavy gunners and the like can and will trigger Arcane Ultimatum (100% chance to trigger +600 armour for 20 seconds at rank 4).

Do recall that Vex Armour's old iteration was a thing for literal years.

Exploiting the system is... typically what these kinds of games boil down to, yes. Exploiting every resource within reach to become as powerful as possible. As far as I'm concerned, it's no different from using Venka Prime with little more than combo duration mods for anything that scales off of melee combo multipliers (Landslide, Bladestorm).

Passives, at inception, were not intended to be anything more than a nice bonus. It's the rare warframe that has a truly exceptional passive worth building off of. This is one such one of them, even if it does take a little finagling. The only thing holding it back from being truly standout is that there's really only one weapon that can take advantage of it. If there were a self-damaging, heat-only secondary, I'd just as readily sing the virtues of that as well. As it stands however, with the beam weapon rework coming down the line, I can see Atomos or Cycron becoming much more valid.

what build do you use on your javlok, and do you have any other suggestions on self procing Heat? I'm trying to play around with this passive and this is the most solid plan I've seen so far. 

[--RV--Waltz]

On 2/12/2018 at 2:09 PM, (PS4)OmegaSlayer said:

 

The problem of the nerf is indeed what you said...using other abilities.

Fireball is not efficient as Freeze, Smite, Shattered Lash, Spore, Banshee's first I don't remember the name...sonic something, Seeking Shuriken.

Accelerant is good, but only if you mod it for strength, which means you have to cut somewhere else, also procs fire and doesn't scale.

Ring Of Fire is laughable compared to Chilling Globe, Hallowed Ground, even Spectrorage.

So yeah, you have to be creative with powers with a double energy consumption on your 4th.

That's the problem, not the WoF nerf...the problem that other powers are not useful, especially because fire is the less useful of the base elemental damages.

The rework of fireball is also insulting...it leaves campfires and you have to hope enemies stupidly walk into it.

The passive is stupid because it doesn't have damage reduction and you die from a level 40 Tusk Napalm in less than 1 second.

While Banshee had a nerf too, she has incredible powers that Ember hasn't.

I would accept the nerf if her other abilities and passives would compensate the nerf.

This, Ember was a one trick pony who lost her trick, completely change her abilities or don't @(*()$ touch her at all.

[kingdomeTHEMADcthulhu]

Sad but true and as for the bs shes a room clearer ****ya she was what about limbo equnox among others (dont act like theres more that couldnt be named) unlike them the rest of her powers suck you ****up 4 and now is useless i am geting banshee p in few days (crafting) i hear its not as bad god i hope so...

[(PSN)OmegaSlayer]

Hmmm...

BTW, what's the difference now between Bladestorm and old WoF about room cleaning?

Don't tell me you have to mark the enemies, because especially on PC it's just a mouse sweep.

Also, 10 days without mentioning of tweaks, which means that Ember will be left in the crap like that.

[(XBOX)SupremeMorph]

Ember's fine. Use her other abilities for once.

Maybe her passive could be tweaked to be useful in more than one circumstance, but in general she is fine

[ganjou234]

*Sneaks away when people dont realize her potential as a range/melee battlemage/battlecaster*

The only thing I'd like to see to round out my build is an increase of her armor by 25 (for normal & prime versions).

 

Hint: WoF is actually free buff to CO melee weapons (Corr + Blast is 3 procs already) , Arcane Guardian gives 600 (1200 with 2) armor, Quick Thinking and High Energy pool. Rage and Lifestrike. Edit: Fire Quake is a free ground finisher.

Edited February 21, 2018 by ganjou234
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