Why Chroma will never be tanky again: (UPDATED TO CONTAIN THE BEST BALANCING IDEAS IN THE FIRST POST)

[EinheriarJudith]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

I hate to break it to ya, but 1 hour is far from endurance. Now if i were to talk about how chroma is weak because my valkyr can tank level 1000s, then you have footing, but 1 hour in an Mot is merely level 140. This is the same as a t3 sortie without all the modifers, so it's actually easier. This tells me that you really are not familiar with these missions. Perma cc, stealth, etc. are not mandatory for those levels, only if you're trying to play casually believe me on that. Star chart is not what the game should be balanced on. I can give you a long lecture, but I'd rather something like stay in PM while this thread stays on topic.

Nidus, trinity, and even mesa cruise on these levels. Chroma would fall.

normal players are not going to go 1hr on mot. those who like to ego stroke but use valkyr (a frame with invincibility as a power) as an example. excuse me but go to 1hr on mot at your own risk and 1000+ enemy lvl is not achievable without cheese. soo......

Edited February 13, 2018 by EinheriarJudith

[(PSN)Crixus044]

16 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

normal players are not going to go 1hr on mot. those who like to ego stroke but use valkyr (a frame with invincibility as a power) as an example. excuse me but go to 1hr on mot at your own risk and 1000+ enemy lvl is not achievable without cheese. soo......

I'll reiterate, 1 Hour Mot is level 140. This is in the same level region as sortie, just without the sortie modifiers. This makes it actually easier. Ego stroking will be done by players in level 20 or level 200. I'm sure a lot of Ember WoF players that used her only for her low level killing potential were ego stroking for those kills. Level 1000 is VERY doable without cheese. If YOU cannot get to level 1000 without cheese, that's not a game problem.

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 29 Minuten schrieb EinheriarJudith:

normal players are not going to go 1hr on mot. those who like to ego stroke but use valkyr (a frame with invincibility as a power) as an example. excuse me but go to 1hr on mot at your own risk and 1000+ enemy lvl is not achievable without cheese. soo......

yes balancing revolves around level 100. this is what DE is doing with sorties. i can clearly understand that balancing arround level 1000 would be stupid. because than this game would even become more boring in early game. but this game is clearly balanced around level 100 (sorties, raids[RIP]) . and atm chroma is not balanced around level 100. thats the point of this thread. make him balanced again.

[EinheriarJudith]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

I'll reiterate, 1 Hour Mot is level 140. This is in the same level region as sortie, just without the sortie modifiers. This makes it actually easier. Ego stroking will be done by players in level 20 or level 200. I'm sure a lot of Ember WoF players that used her only for her low level killing potential were ego stroking for those kills. Level 1000 is VERY doable without cheese. If YOU cannot get to level 1000 without cheese, that's not a game problem.

i dont play in enemy lvls were balance is broken. 168 is my limit. OHKO and bullet sponge are not ok we arent going to agree on this topic ever. i dont care if you can go enemy lvl 1000 with cheese because telling me you can without it and no video back up (since you want to ego stroke) but only expecting me to take your word at face value is ridiculous. if it works for you so be it but expecting normal players to go 1hr hell even anyone who doesn't like sitting in 1 mission for a long time being bored is absurd. it isn't the standard. what the standard actually is. is AABC not AABCAABCAABCAABCAABC+. sortie 3 the only hard mission in sortie (somtimes depends on mission type) is lvl 80-100 chroma can still operate within this. im not saying he shouldnt have his tank returned to him but we will see what DE decides its not like they have never done heavy handed changes/nerfs before. look at Corpus faction.

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb EinheriarJudith:

i dont play in enemy lvls were balance is broken. 168 is my limit. OHKO and bullet sponge are not ok we arent going to agree on this topic ever. i dont care if you can go enemy lvl 1000 with cheese because telling me you can without it and no video back up (since you want to ego stroke) but only expecting me to take your word at face value is ridiculous. if it works for you so be it but expecting normal players to go 1hr hell even anyone who doesn't like sitting in 1 mission for a long time being bored is absurd. it isn't the standard. what the standard actually is. is AABC not AABCAABCAABCAABCAABC+. sortie 3 the only hard mission in sortie (somtimes depends on mission type) is lvl 80-100 chroma can still operate within this. im not saying he shouldnt have his tank returned to him but we will see what DE decides its not like they have never done heavy handed changes/nerfs before. look at Corpus faction.

yet the problem with chroma remains. before the nerf his buff was so absurd good that it didnt matter that it literally was his only good ability (and maybe ice elemtal ward - but that was only good because of vex). now since his buff is just normal he needs something to make him unique. so either DE buffs vex armor again, which i doubt they'll do, or they give his other abilities some love.

[EinheriarJudith]

12 minutes ago, DeadlyCreation said:

yet the problem with chroma remains. before the nerf his buff was so absurd good that it didnt matter that it literally was his only good ability (and maybe ice elemtal ward - but that was only good because of vex). now since his buff is just normal he needs something to make him unique. so either DE buffs vex armor again, which i doubt they'll do, or they give his other abilities some love.

id be ok with this. if they dont want to change vex anymore than completely replace spectral scream and buff elemental ward and efigy.

[Xzorn]

It's actually not balanced around lvl 100. It's not balanced around any particular level at all.  DE has never gone on record about that nor would any sane Developer in a long term RPG style game. As players grow in power enemies must also. That's the entire point of a level system in the first place.

The idea that the game is developed around a specific level range is brought on by forum lurkers over the years who misinterpret what DE says. DE did not expect players to push to lvl 100, This was addressed in 2014 ages ago yet now Sorties are lvl 100. The only thing that has changed between then and now is our power as players. Years back players called you a tryhard doing lvl 100 content. You can even find an old Mogamu video for Phoenix Intercept (which was lvl 130) from 2015 where they act like it's the biggest thing ever and he talks about how players are used to fighting lvl 20 enemies.

DE balances around one thing. Popularity. Popularity as a community often relates to farming efficiency and speed which DE has a monetized interest in. So when something makes farming too easy on a wide scale. It gets nerfed. When content gets released the level is set to whatever DE thinks it's appropriate for the avg player at that time.

There's no set line and there never will be in fact the bar is always going up but in order to appeal to avg gamers DE has to keep the difficulty on the derp end of the spectrum while highly diminishing rewards given to players who can actually deal with that higher content. In part because they don't balance around levels. As example you start getting a Free Radiant Relic by lvl 250 in a Survival which shows they thought about it and if the game were truly set to lvl 100 that reward wouldn't exist.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

1 hour ago, EinheriarJudith said:

i dont play in enemy lvls were balance is broken. 168 is my limit. OHKO and bullet sponge are not ok we arent going to agree on this topic ever. i dont care if you can go enemy lvl 1000 with cheese because telling me you can without it and no video back up (since you want to ego stroke) but only expecting me to take your word at face value is ridiculous. if it works for you so be it but expecting normal players to go 1hr hell even anyone who doesn't like sitting in 1 mission for a long time being bored is absurd. it isn't the standard. what the standard actually is. is AABC not AABCAABCAABCAABCAABC+. sortie 3 the only hard mission in sortie (somtimes depends on mission type) is lvl 80-100 chroma can still operate within this. im not saying he shouldnt have his tank returned to him but we will see what DE decides its not like they have never done heavy handed changes/nerfs before. look at Corpus faction.

You're not helping the argument. You  say 168 is your limit. Fine, that's all you're able to do. Everyone has their limit. This doesn't mean the game should be balanced around your limit. We've been in the same levels for years, yet our gear progressively gets stronger. This is the method of progression and DE doesn't balance to level 100. Players ASKED them to, but they haven't said this is true. Read the comment below.

 

24 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

It's actually not balanced around lvl 100. It's not balanced around any particular level at all.  DE has never gone on record about that nor would any sane Developer in a long term RPG style game. As players grow in power enemies must also. That's the entire point of a level system in the first place.

The idea that the game is developed around a specific level range is brought on by forum lurkers over the years who misinterpret what DE says. DE did not expect players to push to lvl 100, This was addressed in 2014 ages ago yet now Sorties are lvl 100. The only thing that has changed between then and now is our power as players. Years back players called you a tryhard doing lvl 100 content. You can even find an old Mogamu video for Phoenix Intercept (which was lvl 130) from 2015 where they act like it's the biggest thing ever and he talks about how players are used to fighting lvl 20 enemies.

DE balances around one thing. Popularity. Popularity as a community often relates to farming efficiency and speed which DE has a monetized interest in. So when something makes farming too easy on a wide scale. It gets nerfed. When content gets released the level is set to whatever DE thinks it's appropriate for the avg player at that time.

There's no set line and there never will be in fact the bar is always going up but in order to appeal to avg gamers DE has to keep the difficulty on the derp end of the spectrum while highly diminishing rewards given to players who can actually deal with that higher content. In part because they don't balance around levels. As example you start getting a Free Radiant Relic by lvl 250 in a Survival which shows they thought about it and if the game were truly set to lvl 100 that reward wouldn't exist.

It's like looking in a mirror lol

 

Edited February 13, 2018 by (PS4)Crixus044

[Savaroth07]

Well, the Chroma mechanics are screwed.....multipliers adjusted to base dmg before mod multipliers, etc., and as a result, gotta love these bugs coming out of the woodwork, why did they implement the set up for Chroma with "less than ideal" calculation mechanics to begin with, oh....yeaaaaah, to fix bugs in the game mechanics along with a couple of other frames getting similar modifications, lol! Needless to sat if Chroma's "fix" is as it is, and this is some kind of standard by which a balance is intended, then all other frames should have the same "fix" for ability calculation mechanics, So let's see how many people like the idea of their frames getting their buffs, and increased dmg output revolvent around base dmg before mod multipliers are included, and see how they like it....I think it would be majorly amusing. I'm a sadistic bastid, and it would be kinda like stepping on an ant-bed then standing back to see the chaotic fray with all of the lil guys running around in a frenzy xD

Edited February 13, 2018 by Savaroth07

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

Funny. My Chroma is pretty tanky but I never used Steel Fiber on him. Real tanks in game have a form of health regeneration. I equip Hirudo on him and he can keep regenerating health faster than the enemies can reduce it. He's always been tanky even without Steel Fiber but not the same way like Gara who can directly reduce damage without increasing armor or Inaros that infinitely regenerates health.

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb (PS4)mahoshonenfox:

Funny. My Chroma is pretty tanky but I never used Steel Fiber on him. Real tanks in game have a form of health regeneration. I equip Hirudo on him and he can keep regenerating health faster than the enemies can reduce it. He's always been tanky even without Steel Fiber but not the same way like Gara who can directly reduce damage without increasing armor or Inaros that infinitely regenerates health.

yes if you have never used steel fiber or the ice elemental ward you dont know what you are missing out on. and yes chroma isnt the squishiest frame of all thats true - but its fact that he is the worst tank in game - having lower ehp than oberon prime (who is not even a tank). 

i dont care if they leave vex armor like this or not but chroma needs something to makes him worth while. before the fix his vex armor dmg buff was so absurdly broken as a result you didnt even care that all of his other abilities were crap. but now since his vex armor is average players (including myself) finally realize that chroma allways had a broken kit that needs alot of work. seriously i would not be a fan of making vex armor op again and leaving everything else the same. id rather see DE making some use out of chromas 1, 2 and 4. still i am hoping he will return back to his tankyness but DE could easily use his other abilities to do so. as a result vex armor would stay the underwhelming buff it is now but chroma other abilities could further increase his tankyness to be somewhat on par with the pre update state

Edited February 14, 2018 by DeadlyCreation

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb Savaroth07:

Well, the Chroma mechanics are screwed.....multipliers adjusted to base dmg before mod multipliers, etc., and as a result, gotta love these bugs coming out of the woodwork, why did they implement the set up for Chroma with "less than ideal" calculation mechanics to begin with, oh....yeaaaaah, to fix bugs in the game mechanics along with a couple of other frames getting similar modifications, lol! Needless to sat if Chroma's "fix" is as it is, and this is some kind of standard by which a balance is intended, then all other frames should have the same "fix" for ability calculation mechanics, So let's see how many people like the idea of their frames getting their buffs, and increased dmg output revolvent around base dmg before mod multipliers are included, and see how they like it....I think it would be majorly amusing. I'm a sadistic bastid, and it would be kinda like stepping on an ant-bed then standing back to see the chaotic fray with all of the lil guys running around in a frenzy xD

i dont even know how these dmg bug came to being. i mean chroma used the same calculation as rhino. so why was he screwed up to begin with? and if they used a new code why not copy rhinos code to fix it? i dont get it

Edited February 14, 2018 by DeadlyCreation

[Mr.Snipersmiley]

6 hours ago, DeadlyCreation said:

i dont even know how these dmg bug came to being. i mean chroma used the same calculation as rhino. so why was he screwed up to begin with? and if they used a new code why not copy rhinos code to fix it? i dont get it

Chroma’s calculations where not like rhinos period. Chromas calculations where unique to him, the calculations (kinda similar to rhino) where being triple  dipped (being multiplied by 1.5 then 2 then 3 and the number was being multiplied bythe answer you got from before) TL;DR the numbers where basically being cubed or squared. The damage buffs where obsured in the end and chromas ehp was effectively in the millions or possibly billions with ability damage increases from outside sources (corruption, nidus link, equinox provoke, rhino roar, etc) so chroma was able to get stupidly high numbers because of this

[(PSN)Crixus044]

1 hour ago, Mr.Snipersmiley said:

Chroma’s calculations where not like rhinos period. Chromas calculations where unique to him, the calculations (kinda similar to rhino) where being triple  dipped (being multiplied by 1.5 then 2 then 3 and the number was being multiplied bythe answer you got from before) TL;DR the numbers where basically being cubed or squared. The damage buffs where obsured in the end and chromas ehp was effectively in the millions or possibly billions with ability damage increases from outside sources (corruption, nidus link, equinox provoke, rhino roar, etc) so chroma was able to get stupidly high numbers because of this

This is incorrect. They were similar at one time, a time long long ago. This is proven by how it use to increase the damage of elemental ward and spectral scream, but after about last year, didn't anymore from a nerf. In fact, Vex armor use to LOWER the DoT of Toxin Elemental Ward after they changed it to weapon damage. Why? I will never get the chance to test and find out. It doesn't triple dip like rhino's roar at all. Roar doesn't triple dip with specifically weapons. Chroma's multiplier only triple dipped with base combined elementals. He only double dipped with combined elementals. So if you had a vectis prime, your damage would be base damage x vex armor + combined elemental x vex armor^2 based off of the stats in your arsenal. For base combined elementals like phage and arca plasmor would be base damage x vex armor^3 + combined elementals x vex armor^2. Rhino's Roar acts totally different from this. Roar buffs all damage done by tenno by +50%. This is why it affects abilities.

Also, I don't think you know what EHp is. Chroma's EHp is his effective health, meaning how much damage he can take before dying. I'm sure you've heard a lot from others, but I', giving you the facts. I mean this with no malice, but I just do not want misinformation to be spread, creating further problems with community opinion, which matters to our unique Devs.

7 hours ago, DeadlyCreation said:

i dont even know how these dmg bug came to being. i mean chroma used the same calculation as rhino. so why was he screwed up to begin with? and if they used a new code why not copy rhinos code to fix it? i dont get it

It came when his damage was changed from total damage to weapons damage. It came from them trying to fix a previous bug with his Elemental Ward, that created the even BIGGER bug we are so fond of. GG DE

[Mr.Snipersmiley]

18 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

This is incorrect. They were similar at one time, a time long long ago. This is proven by how it use to increase the damage of elemental ward and spectral scream, but after about last year, didn't anymore from a nerf. In fact, Vex armor use to LOWER the DoT of Toxin Elemental Ward after they changed it to weapon damage. Why? I will never get the chance to test and find out. It doesn't triple dip like rhino's roar at all. Roar doesn't triple dip with specifically weapons. Chroma's multiplier only triple dipped with base combined elementals. He only double dipped with combined elementals. So if you had a vectis prime, your damage would be base damage x vex armor + combined elemental x vex armor^2 based off of the stats in your arsenal. For base combined elementals like phage and arca plasmor would be base damage x vex armor^3 + combined elementals x vex armor^2. Rhino's Roar acts totally different from this. Roar buffs all damage done by tenno by +50%. This is why it affects abilities.

Also, I don't think you know what EHp is. Chroma's EHp is his effective health, meaning how much damage he can take before dying. I'm sure you've heard a lot from others, but I', giving you the facts. I mean this with no malice, but I just do not want misinformation to be spread, creating further problems with community opinion, which matters to our unique Devs.

It came when his damage was changed from total damage to weapons damage. It came from them trying to fix a previous bug with his Elemental Ward, that created the even BIGGER bug we are so fond of. GG DE

I know what ehp is and I understand the math behind chromas madness. I know my explanation was terrible but I believe the chroma this post was based off of is the double and triple dipping chroma (the one that had his unique and broken #@*&$@y), please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not trying to spread misinterpreted information, I love chroma to bits, I've invested so much time into this warframe only for DE to turn him into mush. I've invested time in raids (for my max arcane grace and aegis), forma, Tenno gen and the hours I've put into endurance runs is astronomical DE took away so much potential from this warframe and through a band-aid (like they always do on the wound)

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb Mr.Snipersmiley:

I know what ehp is and I understand the math behind chromas madness. I know my explanation was terrible but I believe the chroma this post was based off of is the double and triple dipping chroma (the one that had his unique and broken #@*&$@y), please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not trying to spread misinterpreted information, I love chroma to bits, I've invested so much time into this warframe only for DE to turn him into mush. I've invested time in raids (for my max arcane grace and aegis), forma, Tenno gen and the hours I've put into endurance runs is astronomical DE took away so much potential from this warframe and through a band-aid (like they always do on the wound)

i wonder if it would be possible for DE to just give chroma a total dmg multiplier but only for weapons. not multiplicating mods etc just have the simple dmg that the weapon does multiplied. (just like te bane mods)

[(PSN)Crixus044]

12 minutes ago, Mr.Snipersmiley said:

I know what ehp is and I understand the math behind chromas madness. I know my explanation was terrible but I believe the chroma this post was based off of is the double and triple dipping chroma (the one that had his unique and broken #@*&$@y), please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not trying to spread misinterpreted information, I love chroma to bits, I've invested so much time into this warframe only for DE to turn him into mush. I've invested time in raids (for my max arcane grace and aegis), forma, Tenno gen and the hours I've put into endurance runs is astronomical DE took away so much potential from this warframe and through a band-aid (like they always do on the wound)

My apologies for misunderstanding your intent. This thread is about fixing is his tankiness only. The damage change was...acceptable. Not good or polished, but acceptable. The tankiness nerf to him is what we are discussing and looking to fix.

[mac10smg--Toa_of_Green]

I feel like everyone is forgetting the fact that Vex Armor is an AoE buff now.

And stacks with other Chromas.

He’s a more team-oriented frame now.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

8 minutes ago, DeadlyCreation said:

i wonder if it would be possible for DE to just give chroma a total dmg multiplier but only for weapons. not multiplicating mods etc just have the simple dmg that the weapon does multiplied. (just like te bane mods)

As an aura? This would be a little much. Now that they made Vex Armor aura a team aura, they've sentenced it to death. It can no longer be strong because it would make the team too strong in the eyes of DE. Even if they make it total damage for weapons only, since it would be additive to BAne Mods, it would diminish the power of bane mods making them less valuable, also making Rhino Roar less valuable. Unless they change it from an aura back to chroma only, it will have to be a base damage buff, which means so will Scorn, unless they find a way to make it separate.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

23 minutes ago, mac10smg-ToaOfGreen said:

I feel like everyone is forgetting the fact that Vex Armor is an AoE buff now.

And stacks with other Chromas.

He’s a more team-oriented frame now.

Stacking is additive to each other, meaning it is less potent when factored with mods and other chromas. This whole stacking and team sharing is being over-pushed without the true math showing.

Chroma should never be a team oriented frame. Because he's team oriented, he can never be strong standing alone, unlike other frames. If he is, he'd make team too strong in the eyes of DE and the community. Also consider this. There are only 4 players per squad now that Trials are gone. If it takes 2 chromas hugging each other to be decent, then you are really restricting team comps, and thus he will fall out of favor with players and the masses and never be used. Thus DE will have to buff him again.

Edited February 14, 2018 by (PS4)Crixus044

[mac10smg--Toa_of_Green]

Just now, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

Chroma should never be a team oriented frame. Because he's team oriented, he can never be strong standing alone, unlike other frames. If he is, he'd make team too strong in the eyes of DE and the community. Also consider this. There are only 4 players per squad now that Trials are gone. If it takes 2 chromas hugging each other to be decent, then you a really restricting team comps, and thus he will fall out of favor with players and the masses.

Who said so?

Trinity is a Team-oriented frame, and she can stand on her own. I’ve played multiple plains missions with Chroma, and made it out without a hitch.

Oh, and the aura is 18 meters. No hugging required.

[Mr.Snipersmiley]

39 minutes ago, DeadlyCreation said:

i wonder if it would be possible for DE to just give chroma a total dmg multiplier but only for weapons. not multiplicating mods etc just have the simple dmg that the weapon does multiplied. (just like te bane mods)

I like this, maybe DE can make the multiplier start at 1.5x damage and make it increase with PS mods kinda similar to banshees sonar which I’m surprised DE hasn’t nerfed YET. I think elemental ward does something like this though?

[(PSN)Onder6099]

33 minutes ago, mac10smg-ToaOfGreen said:

I feel like everyone is forgetting the fact that Vex Armor is an AoE buff now.

And stacks with other Chromas.

He’s a more team-oriented frame now.

Problem is that u jump into Topic where the majority of players are running Solo and used Chroma for Endurance runs.

[Mr.Snipersmiley]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

Problem is that u jump into Topic where the majority of players are running Solo and used Chroma for Endurance runs.

Thank god sombody brought this up, chroma was NEEEEEEEVER a team warframe (he can solo eidolons no need for team mates) I don’t know why DE thought it was a good idea to make him this way to put it simply, it doesn’t work he is meant to eat bullets and spit them out 20x harder.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

22 minutes ago, mac10smg-ToaOfGreen said:

Who said so?

Trinity is a Team-oriented frame, and she can stand on her own. I’ve played multiple plains missions with Chroma, and made it out without a hitch.

Oh, and the aura is 18 meters. No hugging required.

Plains is far from a balance point for the game. Speaking of trinity, she's team oriented, AND stronger than Chroma, AND gives stronger defensive buffs. Her energy regen can arguably be better for damage too if you consider being able to cast your abilities more as a dps frame.

It's not a matter of who said what. It's simple logical deduction. I've played through every level of this game up to the fabled level cap. I've asked others who do the same, as well as my friends who don't really consider it worth their time, yet are brilliant at the game nonetheless. These are math guys and game guys who I enjoy learning from and speaking to. I have combed through the comments. This is the conclusion I've come up with and the reasons. You can disagree with my opinion, I have no hard feelings towards it. I welcomed all opinions, but not ignoring facts.

Also, considering the builds required to make these buffs useful, 18m is basically hugging/camping, unless you as a chroma would like the follow every single one of your team members like a sentinel, or have them follow you like a pet, then you should have no problem with this. I believe you can be a team oriented without giving out team buffs, by simply focusing on the strengths of your warframe and giving him a role and combining with other warframe's strengths and roles, you can have a complete team. A lone frost cannot complete a high level defense quickly since his damage isn't suffice. His strength is his defense and CC, thus that is his role. He leave majority of the damage to the damage frames and buffers like saryn, mesa, banshee, etc. That's their role, and thus being helpful to your team. Of course this is my opinion and you are free to disagree, but I'd like for you to know where I developed it from. I'm no forum slouch. 

Edited February 14, 2018 by (PS4)Crixus044