Vex Armor upd 22.12.0

[FelanGrey]

Damage:

Well, a was agree with change of damage buff calculation, because it was overpowered. But here what we've received:

Looks like Rhino have other calculation formula for damage buff. Before UPD 22.12.0 100% of Vex Armors damage buff gives much more than Roar 100%.

Now 100% Roars damage buff = 400% Vex Armors damage buff. It's a bit confusion.
It's not bad, because Rhino needs 200% Strength; Chroma - 145% Strength
Also have to mention that Vex Armors damage buff apply only on weapons, but Roars damage buff apply on other warframe abilities too. That's means - Choma as support damage buffer is MUCH worse than Rhino.
And some problems with melee https://forums.warframe.com/topic/919024-vex-armor-doesnt-apply-damage-buff-on-melee/?tab=comments#comment-9481720

 

Armor:

As I'd mention before - https://forums.warframe.com/topic/915093-dev-workshop-warframes-revisited/?do=findComment&comment=9454759

Now Chroma is MUCH more vulnerable.

Before 150lvl Nullifier needs  5 hits to kill my ice Chroma, now - only 2 hits. And it's only if I already have maximum armor multiplier, if I'll just turn on Vex Armor - Nullifier would oneshot Chroma.
 

Сonclusion:

UPD 22.12 - is a great nerf for Chromas survivability. Also his armor buff wouldn't make allies with low base armor more survivable.
But now it's recastable and allies can get some buffs.

Hope someday DE would look again on calculation formulas.

Edited February 10, 2018 by FelanGrey

[Dragazer]

Lol also considering that Chroma has to be dmged to access the buff while rhino get it on demand, just makes this nerf so pathetic now

GG DE

Edited February 10, 2018 by Dragazer

[Raspberry]

3 minutes ago, FelanGrey said:

Hope someday DE would look again on calculation formulas.

They just looked and made this mistake, literally within this week: +100% buff = +400% buff

This, after many months of: +400% vex = +1600% actual multiplier

Hope someday DE can math properly.

[KIREEK]

likely unintentional, they wanted the damage reduction so they needed to add a more broad usage like range.

It's obvious that an ability that remains active regardless of range and that affects damage output from abilities and weapons isn't intented to be more powerfull than chroma vex armor ability

Edited February 10, 2018 by KIREEK

[Dragazer]

1 minute ago, KIREEK said:

likely unintentional, they wanted the damage reduction so they needed to add a more broad usage like range.

It's obvious that an ability that remains active regardless of range and that affects damage output from abilities and weapons isn't intented to be more powerfull than chroma vex armor ability

Lol rhino has been around since closed beta, Roar has always worked as it has, dont try to get another frame nerfed trying to justify another terrible decision by DE

[Lord_Yawgmoth]

just another chroma-thread complaining about a faulty patch

[Dragazer]

9 minutes ago, Lord_Yawgmoth said:

just another chroma-thread complaining about a faulty patch

The only faulty thing here is DE's calculators when making this nerf.

We can clearly see what it is, Rhino roar is able to buff weapon dmg multiplicatively with mods while vex is now only additive with mods.

 They already showed us the new formula for vex already:

(Base)*(vexarmor+mods)

Whereas Rhino roar is:

(base)*(mods)*(roar)

Edited February 10, 2018 by Dragazer

[xmegarockx]

my chroma got destroyed now i got back to play frost as my main because vex armor is not good anymore.

the chroma nerf was only to protect eidolon from 1 shot.

Edited February 10, 2018 by xmegarockx

[Dragazer]

1 minute ago, xmegarockx said:

my chroma got destroyed now i got back to play frost as my main because vex armor is not good anymore.

the chroma nerf was only to protect eidolon from 1 shot.

Yeah they claim it was a bug but apparently took them almost 3 years to fix?

[Lord_Yawgmoth]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Dragazer:

The only faulty thing here is DE's calculators when making this nerf.

We can clearly see what it is, Rhino roar is able to buff weapon dmg multiplicatively with mods while vex is now only additive with mods.

 They already showed us the new formula for vex already:

(Base)*(vexarmor+mods)

true but rhinos base buff is much smaller and adding ap works for both, so u cant directly compare those 2 

[Xaero]

17 minutes ago, Dragazer said:

Lol rhino has been around since closed beta, Roar has always worked as it has, dont try to get another frame nerfed trying to justify another terrible decision by DE

I think he just means that Chroma definitely doesn't work as intended.

[Xion]

DE knows about this and I'm pretty sure it's intentional. Rhino's Roar is an overall damage buff, so it has to be calculated after all other increases have been factored in, even for ability damage. Fury is a weapon (and Spectral Scream) buff. Compare it to Octavia's and I think you should see similar numbers.

Edited February 10, 2018 by Xion

[Dragazer]

14 minutes ago, Lord_Yawgmoth said:

true but rhinos base buff is much smaller and adding ap works for both, so u cant directly compare those 2 

Rhino becomes better once you add in more base dmg from things like heavy cal and riven mods. It affects wf abilties too, unlike vex.

If i remember correctly roar can be cast once and allies can leave range and still keep buffs

Vex armor is an aura and allies lose buffs after leaving range so theres that too lol.

And to top it off looks like vex armor does not affect melee anymore, Chroma's days just keep getting better.

Edited February 10, 2018 by Dragazer

[Dragazer]

11 minutes ago, Xion said:

DE knows about this and I'm pretty sure it's intentional. Rhino's Roar is an overall damage buff, so it has to be calculated after all other increases have been factored in, even for ability damage. Fury is a weapon (and Spectral Scream) buff. Compare it to Octavia's and I think you should see similar numbers.

Yes problem is Octavia's kit is loaded with everything you can think of. From invulerable decoys that amplify and reflect enemy dmg, an invis that is longer than lokis and can be recastable for the entire squad, multishot buffs, melee dmg buffs, speed buffs all for the whole squad, and a dmg amp that doesn't require getting hit to work.

Vex armor aura is useless, how many frames have the base armor to actually make it useful? Better to just be Octavia and make my allies completely untargetable and take no dmg at all.

What does Chroma have? His 1 is total trash still, 4 is trash and drains massive energy still, 2 is mediocre at best, his 3 was legit his only saving grace and it has been totally ruined.

[o.0-]

More vulnerable? I dunno.

The trouble I'm seeing with my build is still the same, getting enough damage to recast Vex Armor to sustain the buff and needing something like Hirudo or Life Strike as before the changes.

[KIREEK]

1 hour ago, Dragazer said:

Lol rhino has been around since closed beta, Roar has always worked as it has, dont try to get another frame nerfed trying to justify another terrible decision by DE

I may have explained myself wrong, i mean vex armor may not be working as intented, not rhino

[Ailyene]

Pretty sure it not effecting certain damage like melee is a bug but the calculations should be intentional.  Here's my math on this:

 

For Fury, it got changed from a +175% multiplier on damage (like almost all other damage boosting skills) to a +275% additional buff on damage (like Amp/Serration/Hornet Strike).

This makes +base damage from modding/abilities scale worse than elements/ect.

With Serration only: Fury is 70% stronger than an equally modded Roar, this is also close to how it will effect Melee/Secondaries that have fewer +Base Damage mods.

(Serration Only)

Spoiler

 

B = Base Damage
S = Base Damage Mods like Serration
D = Damage Buff
M = Elemental Mods

Most Likely New Fury:
(B*(S+D))+(B*(S+D))*M1

100*(1+1.65+10.26)+100*(1+1.65+10.26)*(1+1.2+1.2)

5680.4

Rhino's Roar:
((B*S)+((B*S)*M1))*D

((100*(1+1.65))+((100*(1+1.65))*(1+1.2+1.2)))*(1+1.865)

3340.59

 

With Serration + Heavy Caliber:  Fury is only 18% stronger than Roar in this example due to diminishing returns.

(Serration + Heavy Caliber)

Spoiler

 

Most Likely New Fury:
(B*(S+D))+(B*(S+D))*M1

100*(1+1.65+1.65+10.26)+100*(1+1.65+1.65+10.26)*(1+1.2+1.2)

6406.4

Rhino's Roar:
((B*S)+((B*S)*M1))*D

((100*(1+1.65+1.65))+((100*(1+1.65+1.65))*(1+1.2+1.2)))*(1+1.865)

5420.58

 

 

My practical tests match up with these calculations I made, with my Chroma slightly out-damaging my Rhino when both are maximized and using the same weapon. My Rhino did 23k and my Chroma did 27k with my Opticor against a level 155 Napalm at 373% power strength.

 

On his defense, they really killed his EHP with the Arcane and Vex Armor changes, I went from 222k EHP to 30k EHP.  Still more than decent for my standards but no longer king of tanks, 7 frames now (potentially) have higher EHP/damage tanking ability by my count.

It would probably also be better to run Heat over Cold now for Elemental Ward and replace Steel Fiber with Vigor.

Quick estimate and comparison of Heat Chroma and Cold Chroma's EHP with the new formula assuming maximized power strength + Max Vitality + Primed Vigor:

Spoiler

 

Heat Chroma:

(200 x 3.73) + 960 = 1706 HP + 520 Shield
[350 (1 + (13.055))] = 4919.25 = ~94.25% DR
30200 EHP

Cold Chroma:

960 HP + 520 Shield
[350 (1 + (5.595) + (13.055))] = 6877.5 = 95.82 DR
23488 EHP

 

 

[Dragazer]

10 minutes ago, Ailyene said:

Pretty sure it not effecting certain damage like melee is a bug but the calculations should be intentional.  Here's my math on this:

 

For Fury, it got changed from a +175% multiplier on damage (like almost all other damage boosting skills) to a +275% additional buff on damage (like Amp/Serration/Hornet Strike).

This makes +base damage from modding/abilities scale worse than elements/ect.

With Serration only: Fury is 70% stronger than an equally modded Roar, this is also close to how it will effect Melee/Secondaries that have fewer +Base Damage mods.

(Serration Only)

  Hide contents

 

B = Base Damage
S = Base Damage Mods like Serration
D = Damage Buff
M = Elemental Mods

Most Likely New Fury:
(B*(S+D))+(B*(S+D))*M1

100*(1+1.65+10.26)+100*(1+1.65+10.26)*(1+1.2+1.2)

5680.4

Rhino's Roar:
((B*S)+((B*S)*M1))*D

((100*(1+1.65))+((100*(1+1.65))*(1+1.2+1.2)))*(1+1.865)

3340.59

 

With Serration + Heavy Caliber:  Fury is only 18% stronger than Roar in this example due to diminishing returns.

(Serration + Heavy Caliber)

  Hide contents

 

Most Likely New Fury:
(B*(S+D))+(B*(S+D))*M1

100*(1+1.65+1.65+10.26)+100*(1+1.65+1.65+10.26)*(1+1.2+1.2)

6406.4

Rhino's Roar:
((B*S)+((B*S)*M1))*D

((100*(1+1.65+1.65))+((100*(1+1.65+1.65))*(1+1.2+1.2)))*(1+1.865)

5420.58

 

 

My practical tests match up with these calculations I made, with my Chroma slightly out-damaging my Rhino when both are maximized and using the same weapon. My Rhino did 23k and my Chroma did 27k with my Opticor against a level 155 Napalm at 373% power strength.

 

On his defense, they really killed his EHP with the Arcane and Vex Armor changes, I went from 222k EHP to 30k EHP.  Still more than decent for my standards but no longer king of tanks, 7 frames now (potentially) have higher EHP/damage tanking ability by my count.

It would probably also be better to run Heat over Cold now for Elemental Ward and replace Steel Fiber with Vigor.

Quick estimate and comparison of Heat Chroma and Cold Chroma's EHP with the new formula assuming maximized power strength + Max Vitality + Primed Vigor:

  Hide contents

 

Heat Chroma:

(200 x 3.73) + 960 = 1706 HP + 520 Shield
[350 (1 + (13.055))] = 4919.25 = ~94.25% DR
30200 EHP

Cold Chroma:

960 HP + 520 Shield
[350 (1 + (5.595) + (13.055))] = 6877.5 = 95.82 DR
23488 EHP

 

 

Lmao RIP, when Shattershield Mesa with just Intensify has more DR and more damage than max str chroma.

You really outdone yourselves this time DE bravo!

Edited February 10, 2018 by Dragazer

[DeadlyCreation]

i certainly think DE didnt had the time to fix the double dipping. They will hopefully do so in DMG 3.0 and my assumption is, since they allready said they will revisite chroma again, that he will hopefully change again after DMG 3.0, after the double dipping exploid is finally fixed.

or it takes them 3 years again who knows?

[Dragazer]

3 minutes ago, DeadlyCreation said:

i certainly think DE didnt had the time to fix the double dipping. They will hopefully do so in DMG 3.0 and my assumption is, since they allready said they will revisite chroma again, that he will hopefully change again after DMG 3.0, after the double dipping exploid is finally fixed.

or it takes them 3 years again who knows?

Didn't the patch notes say double/triple dip was fixed?

[DeadlyCreation]

Gerade eben schrieb Dragazer:

Didn't the patch notes say double/triple dip was fixed?

they did? if yes.. we are doomed

[Dragazer]

In regards to Chroma, DE seriously messed up his damage and armor portion: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/919080-vex-armor-upd-22120/
Not many people know this, the reason Chroma's damage was so high was not because it multiplied with mods, but because Vex Armor actually double dipped its effects on weapons modded for dual elemental combos. To makes things worse on weapons that already have a dual elemental innate as its base damage, (Ogris, Penta, Arca Plasmor) vex armor would triple dip its effects. Here are the calculations someone did on these effects here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/6o9l3w/some_more_math_behind_chromas_vex_armor_and_how/

As you can see here with max power strength, instead of the expected 6.23x dmg increase, you instead get a 242x damage multiplier on weapons with an innate dual element as its base damage, with weapons modded for dual elementals it is instead a 39x dmg multiplier.

We've seen the power of double/triple dipping already when it happened to stealth gas/slash procs and now we are (or were) seeing it again. This is the sole source of people casually one shotting Eidolon limbs Not the fact that Vex armor multiplied with mods. Had Vex armor multiplied dmg by the proper 6.23x multiplier, we would not be seeing so many people one-shotting so easily

From the first forum link I posted, You can see someone do some tests with Rhino roar and current vex armor. With the same increase Vex armor is doing noticeably less dmg than roar is.

This is because roar is multiplied with mods, while vex armor is now only additive. This problem becomes very apparent as you add more base damage from primed mods, heavy caliber, and riven mods.

Why is this an issue? You see with Chroma, damage and tankiness is literally the only 2 things he has going for him. His 1 was and still is terrible, 4 is still trash tier, 2 was indirectly nerfed by his 3 nerf, and as of right now 3 is basically gutted from both the armor and dmg aspect. He has absolutely zero crowd control at all, and zero ways to counter crowd control.

Inb4 you ask why Chroma should deal more dmg with his Vex armor:

Rhino is fine at where he is at. his Iron skin, is a great buffer and makes him cc immune, Charge makes him invulnerable for the duration, and his Roar in its current state is great and much better than Chroma as of now. It is able to buff team ability dmg (Chroma buff is limited to weapon only) along with weapons, it has a much wider radius and can be cast once and teammates receive benefits after moving away (Chroma's vex armor is an aura, squad must stay together for full duration.) and like I mention b4 it buffs damage much better once mods are accounted for. And then to top it off, stomp is undisputed one of the best cc in the game, a massive room wide radius once modded for that can completely shut down enemies. Like I mentioned b4 Chroma's only saving grace was his vex armor, with that clearly nerfed into the ground, he's got no legs left to stand on compared to other frames in both tankiness and dmg.

The part that irritates me the most is DE's reasoning for this. They state they want to change his formula to an additive one because apparently that is the way other dmg buffs are calculated. That is total bogus and you or anyone who actually plays this game knows it.

There are actually very few other abilities that work on Base Damage rather than Modded Damage in the game, Octavia's Amp and Mesa's Shooting Gallery are the only two I can think of that use the formula they changed Chroma's to.

Ember's Flash Accelerant, Saryn's Venom Dose, Frost's Freeze Force, Ember's Fireball Frenzy, Volt's Shock Trooper and Oberon's Smite infusion buffs go off of all mods minus Elemental Damage Mods.

Rhino's Roar, Mirage's Eclipse, Mirage's Hall of Mirrors, Ivara's Navigator, Ivara's Prowl, Volt's Electric Shield, Chroma's Old Vex Armor, Saryn's Toxic Lash, Nova AMD and MPrime and Banshee's Sonar go off of fully modded damage.

So to conclude, Vex armor multiplying with mods was not the source of its broken absurdity or one shotting Eidolon shenanigans. It was the fact it was bugged somehow to apply multiple times over itself in the presence of Dual elemental combos.

Please bring back the old formula ( (Base)x(Vex)x(Mods) just like almost everything else), but take away the double/triple dip this would make Chroma actually viable again in terms of tankiness and damage but not to the point of Eidolon Slayer levels of absurdity

Edited February 11, 2018 by Dragazer

[Ninjamander]

21 hours ago, Ksaero said:

I think he just means that Chroma definitely doesn't work as intended.

but knowing DE, they will probably fix chroma by nerfing all the thing, adding Line of Sigh was an example =/

 

they admit they fault and remove it, just to sneakily readd it.

Edited February 11, 2018 by Ninjamander

[--SlayerPrime--]

Chroma's 2 and 3 is fine now, in fact it's the best it has ever been. WE DON'T NEED ANOTHER RHINO. DE PLEASE WORK ON CHROMA'S 1 and 4 to make him unique.

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb Bobman111:

Chroma's 2 and 3 is fine now, in fact it's the best it has ever been. WE DON'T NEED ANOTHER RHINO. DE PLEASE WORK ON CHROMA'S 1 and 4 to make him unique.

and they just created rhino 0.5. either they make the best 1 and or 4 in game to make something out of him or give him back his former strength. because how he is rught now is just not acceptable