[Poll] Universal Vacuum

[Kayll]

12 hours ago, (PS4)Lowk721 said:

And in some games theey occasionally make it as an obtainable upgrade via item or ability. Especially when it comes to something over a wide area. In Warframe that would be Sentinels. There's even a trope about it
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PowerUpMagnet

You don't have to. That's why they included something that allows you to vacuum things. And then compromised twice giving it to all the sentinels and a small one to Warframes. I could say the same of other games where they make me waste points or time to get that orb or ring or whatever collector so I don't miss that one thing just dangling a few feet away from me.

 

 

 

Your arguments are about something already in the game. That's accessible. That also does additional stuff. 
And I stress the warning. This is warframe. Where every buff there is a nerfing and vice versa. Even for the small stuff. It could be something minor or incidentally something worse or nothing at all. All I'm saying is, It happens when DE tries to fix things. People rarely take that into account when going I want this or I don't want that or that's no fun. Remember how people complained about Ember anti-funess before they tweaked her abilities.

Think of compromises instead of going I don't like this I want this and only this. Especially when one of the developers actually outright explained why he wanted it a certain way and made it so. 

Trope or not, having Univac does absolutely nothing in terms of combat or gameplay, it doesn't make the game any harder or any easier having it or not, its just a matter of do you want to waste time or do you want to not waste time?
There is no inventory system in this game when it comes to the resource pickups,you can have an infinite amount of them.
They could make it so items didn't even drop and they just were automatically given to you and it would have ZERO effect on combat or gameplay, unless for some reason you call running around in circles picking up metal salvage while being shot at "gameplay"..

If you want a compromise then fine, vacuum doesn't suck up energy/health orbs, but vacuum works on every warframe baseline while still picking up all resources.
You'd still have to run around picking up all your resources, it'd just be a LOT less of it.

 

[(PSN)HurricaneHugo76]

LOL,this is why most devs refuse to listen to players for ideas on how to improve the game. Most of you would make horrible game developers.

You need to approach this issue in a way that addresses the intent of the game and the structure it is designed around. This mean you have to think along the lines of normal play, no exploits, no taking advantage of special items. When you think of this game along those lines, and along the philosophy DE designs the game around, not only would there be no need for a universal vacuum you would understand something like this would break the game even further than it is.

I always keep saying this and most player fail to even understand this point. DE has designed the game largely on the premise that if you all played together and used the game mechanics properly there is absolutely no need to use vacuum. They have also designed vacuum with the premise that it is an assist for lower level content but as you approach the end ceiling of the difficulty they design for, which is level 100, the Sentinel will face the very real threat of destruction and you might need to play without it. This is part of what De  considers the difficulty and challenge to play the game. And once you go past lvl 100 nothing you do is designed for by DE so if the carrier doesn't survive past that it's by design.

They also designed the game with the premise that you are not supposed to get any and everything that drops on a map. Unless you are willing to exploit the mechanics and play together you will face the risk of losing items, and that is factored both in the game design and the RNG drop table. The more road blocks and  breaks they can insert to force you to replay levels and extend the grind  out is how they plan the game. Hence being able to have a universal vacuum would fundamentally break one of the core aspects of the game DE focuses on.

So any solution you offer has to keep in line with that. How could you implement vacuum in a way that maintains the grind factor and creates new avenues of grind and more time to develop?  Not much  can be done without major rework to the game, hence DE isn't interested.

[Wolfdoggie]

I voted for Warframes but I woulda selected both Warframe and Pets to have Universal Vacuum to make my kitty/puppy extra useful for when it randomly runs off somewhere. :P

[(PSN)XxDenyer143xX]

I want to ask the majority of you guys this, why do you use sentinels? I bet majority of you would say for the Vacuum mod. So then what would happen to sentinels if vacuum is no longer exclusive to them? A useless feature is what will be made, thats what. I understand why most want vacuum for dogs and warframe, but that will just take away the reason to use sentinels, since a doubt very few warframe players actually use them for abilites, quote me if i am wrong.

Edited February 23, 2018 by (PS4)XxDenyer143xX

[Airwolfen]

4 hours ago, (Xbox One)mickeyjuiceman said:

I truly don't believe this statement at all.

Well better believe it. Imo the statements of "I would really like to use pets, but I can't because they do not have vacuum" is being extremely over dramatic.

[TheRealDestian]

2 hours ago, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

The more road blocks and  breaks they can insert to force you to replay levels and extend the grind  out is how they plan the game.

...Except that the kubrows/kavats necessitate the continued spending of resources while sentinels don't, meaning the pet that collects more resources for you also costs far fewer resources to use.

By your logic, vacuum should be called "Fetch Aura" and be built-in to all kubrows/kavats.

Again, if vacuum had been in the game from day one as the baseline range for AoE looting, no one would've ever noticed any more than they notice the ability to see teammates through walls: both of these are basic mechanics that are considered the norm for games of this type. There's no benefit to making players unable to see where their teammates are through walls, just as there's no benefit to making them walk an extra 2-3 meters to pick up items.

Not having vacuum doesn't make the game any harder or more engaging, just mildly annoying as players have to take a few extra steps to pick up items.

1 hour ago, (PS4)XxDenyer143xX said:

I want to ask the majority of you guys this, why do you use sentinels? I bet majority of you would say for the Vacuum mod. So then what would happen to sentinels if vacuum is no longer exclusive to them?

Sentinels cost no resources to use while kubrows/kavats do.

There's your tradeoff right there...

Edited February 24, 2018 by TheRealDestian

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

2 hours ago, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

LOL,this is why most devs refuse to listen to players for ideas on how to improve the game. Most of you would make horrible game developers.

You need to approach this issue in a way that addresses the intent of the game and the structure it is designed around. This mean you have to think along the lines of normal play, no exploits, no taking advantage of special items. When you think of this game along those lines, and along the philosophy DE designs the game around, not only would there be no need for a universal vacuum you would understand something like this would break the game even further than it is.

I always keep saying this and most player fail to even understand this point. DE has designed the game largely on the premise that if you all played together and used the game mechanics properly there is absolutely no need to use vacuum. They have also designed vacuum with the premise that it is an assist for lower level content but as you approach the end ceiling of the difficulty they design for, which is level 100, the Sentinel will face the very real threat of destruction and you might need to play without it. This is part of what De  considers the difficulty and challenge to play the game. And once you go past lvl 100 nothing you do is designed for by DE so if the carrier doesn't survive past that it's by design.

They also designed the game with the premise that you are not supposed to get any and everything that drops on a map. Unless you are willing to exploit the mechanics and play together you will face the risk of losing items, and that is factored both in the game design and the RNG drop table. The more road blocks and  breaks they can insert to force you to replay levels and extend the grind  out is how they plan the game. Hence being able to have a universal vacuum would fundamentally break one of the core aspects of the game DE focuses on.

So any solution you offer has to keep in line with that. How could you implement vacuum in a way that maintains the grind factor and creates new avenues of grind and more time to develop?  Not much  can be done without major rework to the game, hence DE isn't interested.

This guy GETS it!

[Kayll]

2 hours ago, (PS4)XxDenyer143xX said:

I want to ask the majority of you guys this, why do you use sentinels? I bet majority of you would say for the Vacuum mod. So then what would happen to sentinels if vacuum is no longer exclusive to them? A useless feature is what will be made, thats what. I understand why most want vacuum for dogs and warframe, but that will just take away the reason to use sentinels, since a doubt very few warframe players actually use them for abilites, quote me if i am wrong.

Because my Kavat can't scan things, because I don't have to run back 200m to revive my Kavat after it died trying to solo a level 100 Nox.
Because my Sentinel doesn't kill things if I don't want it to,but yes a good portion of it is because I don't have to run around in circles while using a sentinel because that's not why I play this game

[Aggh]

2 hours ago, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

LOL,this is why most devs refuse to listen to players for ideas on how to improve the game. Most of you would make horrible game developers.

You need to approach this issue in a way that addresses the intent of the game and the structure it is designed around. This mean you have to think along the lines of normal play, no exploits, no taking advantage of special items. When you think of this game along those lines, and along the philosophy DE designs the game around, not only would there be no need for a universal vacuum you would understand something like this would break the game even further than it is.

I always keep saying this and most player fail to even understand this point. DE has designed the game largely on the premise that if you all played together and used the game mechanics properly there is absolutely no need to use vacuum. They have also designed vacuum with the premise that it is an assist for lower level content but as you approach the end ceiling of the difficulty they design for, which is level 100, the Sentinel will face the very real threat of destruction and you might need to play without it. This is part of what De  considers the difficulty and challenge to play the game. And once you go past lvl 100 nothing you do is designed for by DE so if the carrier doesn't survive past that it's by design.

They also designed the game with the premise that you are not supposed to get any and everything that drops on a map. Unless you are willing to exploit the mechanics and play together you will face the risk of losing items, and that is factored both in the game design and the RNG drop table. The more road blocks and  breaks they can insert to force you to replay levels and extend the grind  out is how they plan the game. Hence being able to have a universal vacuum would fundamentally break one of the core aspects of the game DE focuses on.

So any solution you offer has to keep in line with that. How could you implement vacuum in a way that maintains the grind factor and creates new avenues of grind and more time to develop?  Not much  can be done without major rework to the game, hence DE isn't interested.

Everything in this post of yours is useless blather.

You're putting DE on a pedestal that they don't even want.  The reason the game wasn't designed around Vacuum is because the game didn't have Vacuum when it was initially designed.  DE is constantly adding in QoL changes to the game to meet player wants and needs.  You are positing design intentions that are not really provable and that DE has never confirmed.  The 3m vacuum that they added to warframes with PoE also kind of breaks most of your assumptions here.  The only road block to universal vacuum is that DE likes to take baby steps on changes to core mechanics sometimes and that their focus is elsewhere at the moment.

[TheRealDestian]

28 minutes ago, Aggh said:

You're putting DE on a pedestal that they don't even want.  The reason the game wasn't designed around Vacuum is because the game didn't have Vacuum when it was initially designed.  DE is constantly adding in QoL changes to the game to meet player wants and needs.  You are positing design intentions that are not really provable and that DE has never confirmed.  The 3m vacuum that they added to warframes with PoE also kind of breaks most of your assumptions here.  The only road block to universal vacuum is that DE likes to take baby steps on changes to core mechanics sometimes and that their focus is elsewhere at the moment.

This.

I'm sure that if you go back over the history of this forum, you'll find dozens of cases where apologists argued vehemently against QoL features that were later added to the game, all the while insisting that excluding the QoL feature was part of some grand design philosophy that was beyond the understanding of the "average" player (much like those people insisting the Star Wars prequels were actually brilliant films that only seemed terrible to those too dumb to understand their brilliance).

Some things just never change...

3 hours ago, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

LOL,this is why most devs refuse to listen to players for ideas on how to improve the game. 

And to add yet more irony to the situation, this is right from devstream 107:

"Q: What has been the most important lesson you've learned these past five years?

A: Sheldon: The value of interacting with the community. Geoff: We [the devs] don't take for granted the creative freedom we have with WF. Steve: Can't be precious about your ideas, they need to survive trial by fire with the players. Scott: Never say never. Rebecca: Never stop learning."

Yeah, because devs that don't listen to players do so damn well, right?

Just ask Bungie and their work on the raging dumpster fire that is Destiny 2, lawl...

Edited February 24, 2018 by TheRealDestian

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

DE didn't say "We learned to take players ideas and make them happen verbatim."  They said we "have to survive trial by fire with the players." That's less an admission of NEEDING player ideas, and more admitting to the players' harsh reactions being a roadblock to their (the devs) ideas coming to fruition.

When DE expanded map size with PoE, yes they decided a bit of pick up range for Warframes would not only be warranted, but would also help with countering the glitched items in walls/floors.  That's really all.

And if you're gonna argue that we "cannot prove DE's stance", you cannot do so by arguing with what you believe is also DE's stance without proof.. So...that's a fruitless conversation.

[(PSN)Lowk721]

11 hours ago, TheRealDestian said:

Thing is, vacuum is a mod that asks players to spend points meant for combat on a feature that's purely for convenience. If vacuum had some passive effect on combat as well, it'd be a different story (like enemies hit by items being pulled to you take damage or something), but it doesn't.

AFAIK, vacuum is the only quality of life mod in the game which is why it's such an outlier and one that most players feel should be a default option from the start.

If vacuum had been a baseline feature from the beginning of the game, no one would bat an eye. AoE looting (especially in a game like this) is considered standard. Hell, if you miss a loot item in Destiny 2 and you leave the level, the game MAILS it to you, FFS. Vacuum is still not the hand-holding that people seem to think.

If vacuum wasn't a mod, no one would think to turn it into a mod any more than they would the ability to see objective markers, see your teammates through walls or their current HP/shield, or timers on objectives.

Again, it's the only mod in the game (AFAIK) that asks players to spend points meant for combat on convenience instead.

Either make vacuum a baseline feature or add dozens of convenience mods to the game to be consistent.

4 hours ago, Kayll said:

Trope or not, having Univac does absolutely nothing in terms of combat or gameplay, it doesn't make the game any harder or any easier having it or not, its just a matter of do you want to waste time or do you want to not waste time?
There is no inventory system in this game when it comes to the resource pickups,you can have an infinite amount of them.
They could make it so items didn't even drop and they just were automatically given to you and it would have ZERO effect on combat or gameplay, unless for some reason you call running around in circles picking up metal salvage while being shot at "gameplay"..

If you want a compromise then fine, vacuum doesn't suck up energy/health orbs, but vacuum works on every warframe baseline while still picking up all resources.
You'd still have to run around picking up all your resources, it'd just be a LOT less of it.

 

1. Vacuum is a baseline feature for warframes.
2. Good points. Still doesn't change history. I'm not against the idea. Just get out in front of it and keep making suggestions besides giving me large vacuum. Because that's from your's and gamers point of view. From a content creators point of view
https://streamable.com/5hey1
He specifically notes he wants you to use Sentinel for that expanded vacuum size. He also mentions it gives them another nob to adjust and open to possibilities. Maybe they could make it a little larger without going full vacuum. But going by his point, giving a full-on vac would be something along the lines of buffing a feature that already works as is. Which would likely mean nerfing it or other things like pets to help maintain sentinel usage. And would you rather they not have an idea of what they could tweak in realtion to what you want? Or would you want them to know ahead of time what you consider is okay or not okay to you?

2 hours ago, TheRealDestian said:

...Except that the kubrows/kavats necessitate the continued spending of resources while sentinels don't, meaning the pet that collects more resources for you also costs far fewer resources to use.

2 hours ago, TheRealDestian said:

Sentinels cost no resources to use while kubrows/kavats do.

There's your tradeoff right there...

These, on the other hand, not so good points. The very fact that people would rather play with pets then sentinels WITHOUT them having vacuum means their cost is already being handled by the features they already presently have. EIther by looks or by their usefulness or whatever.
I mean Pets already have a few similar utility mods to what Sentinels have as well as generally having a bigger bite, not being as limited in revival, as well as their own special abilities. And then we're talking about also putting a large vac on warframes as well. That's not trade-off. That's adding two bonuses.

A trade-off would be like only one thing can have a vacuum at a time. Or A vacuum with a reduced range to offset the fact that pets can travel away from you instead of staying at your side the whole time.

 

Edited February 24, 2018 by (PS4)Lowk721

[Aggh]

 

13 minutes ago, (PS4)Lowk721 said:

These, on the other hand, not so good points. The very fact that people would rather play with pets then sentinels WITHOUT them having vacuum means their cost is already being handled by the features they already presently have. EIther by looks or by their usefulness or whatever.
I mean Pets already have a few similar utility mods to what Sentinels have as well as generally having a bigger bite, not being as limited in revival, as well as their own special abilities. And then we're talking about also putting a large vac on warframes as well. That's not trade-off. That's adding two bonuses.

A trade-off would be like only one thing can have a vacuum at a time. Or A vacuum with a reduced range to offset the fact that pets can travel away from you instead of staying at your side the whole time.

Almost everyone already uses a sentinel with vacuum.  Most of the time you see someone with a Kavat/Kubrow they're just using it for mastery.  We don't need a trade-off because not having it built in just bad design anyways.

Edited February 24, 2018 by Aggh

[(PSN)Lowk721]

1 hour ago, Aggh said:

Almost everyone already uses a sentinel with vacuum.  Most of the time you see someone with a Kavat/Kubrow they're just using it for mastery.  We don't need a trade-off because not having it built in just bad design anyways.

"Almost everyone" wasn't even true when it was just Kubrows. They were being used as much as carriers(some above other sentinels) back when Carrier was the only thing that had vacuum. The prize jewel was equalled out by dogs. I see people going on about their builds and how they don't use sentinels over them as much as I see people say they use sentinels because they don't like the cost or want vacuum. I even see some people where it's a situational choice. I personally haven't really touched my sentinels I got a Kavat that farts out critical bonuses. So no, it's not just for mastery. Pets are really good at killing things and offer useful buffs that people actually prefer. That or they just like having space cat/dogs more than robot.

Having it not exist would be bad design. Having it only on one thing in the entire game was bad design. Having it across a variety of different floating utility toys and giving the player themselves a small that requires walking near them isn't really that serious of a design crime. It's actually pretty typical of a video-game. Actually, scratch that. In most games, it's a stand-alone upgrade that doesn't come with other utilities like sentinels do.

Edited February 24, 2018 by (PS4)Lowk721

[(PSN)HurricaneHugo76]

5 hours ago, TheRealDestian said:

And to add yet more irony to the situation, this is right from devstream 107:

"Q: What has been the most important lesson you've learned these past five years?

A: Sheldon: The value of interacting with the community. Geoff: We [the devs] don't take for granted the creative freedom we have with WF. Steve: Can't be precious about your ideas, they need to survive trial by fire with the players. Scott: Never say never. Rebecca: Never stop learning."

Yeah, because devs that don't listen to players do so damn well, right?

Just ask Bungie and their work on the raging dumpster fire that is Destiny 2, lawl...

I have 2 words for you:

Endless Waves

Tell me the devs listen to players......

[Airwolfen]

I always found the notion funny that ones need universall vacuum but the pets are trash anyway. Like... would you even play cats/dogs if they HAD vacuum. Because I dont see it happen because people keep noting how you need to revive them (and thats annoying),  how they kill when you dont want them too (and thats annoying), how they are so expensive to maintain (and thats annoying)....

I have a feeling most of you wont be using kavats even if they gained vacuum... yet fight so hard for it.

Edited February 24, 2018 by Airwolfen

[TheRealDestian]

4 hours ago, Airwolfen said:

I always foupnd the nption funny that ones need universall vacuum but the pets are trash anyway. Like... would you even play cats/dogs if they HAD vacuum. Because I dont see it happen because people keep noting how you need to revive them (and thats annoying),  how they kill when you dont want them too (and thats annoying), how they are so expensive to maintain (and thats annoying)....

I have a feeling most of you wont be using kavats even if they gained vacuum... yet fight so hard for it.

It's more to do with the fact that AoE looting in a game like this is usually a standard feature. It's highly unusual to have a game that's all about getting loot to make the efficient acquisition of said loot an optional feature you need to spec for.

It'd be like if we had to spec to see teammates through walls or see their HP bar: working with your teammates is supposed to be part of the game, ergo it would be silly to make players spec for it.

I'm all for the game having tradeoffs that influence combat, but when we're spending combat points on QoL changes, that's when it feels off.

Once again, can anyone make a case for how vacuum somehow affects combat? If we're spending points that could increase our combat potency, it should be increasing our combat potency in some way.

99% of mods in this game affect combat while maybe 3 are QoL mods that don't affect it at all. That's the disparity that should be corrected, either by adding more QoL mods or making those three baseline.

Edited February 24, 2018 by TheRealDestian

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

6 minutes ago, TheRealDestian said:

It's more to do with the fact that AoE looting in a game like this is usually a standard feature. It's highly unusual to have a game that's all about efficiently getting loot to make the efficient acquisition of said loot an optional feature you need to spec for.

It'd be like if we had to spec to see teammates through walls or see their HP bar: working with your teammates is supposed to be part of the game, ergo it would be silly to make players spec for it.

I'm all for the game having tradeoffs that influence combat, but when we're spending combat points on QoL changes, that's when it feels off.

Once again, can anyone make a case for how vacuum somehow affects combat? If we're spending points that could increase our combat potency, it should be increasing our combat potency in some way.

99% of mods in this game affect combat while maybe 3 are QoL mods that don't affect it at all. That's the disparity that should be corrected, either by adding more QoL mods or making those three baseline.

Said it before, but I'll repeat it here:

Vacuum picks up Energy/Health orbs, which in turn allows certain playstyles to optimize.  Keeping energy up for Ember WoF or Wukong Defy, for example.  Am I saying they NEED those? No...but that IS a combat-useful trait of vacuums.  It does affect things, however minute one may consider that.

[Hypernaut1]

5 hours ago, Airwolfen said:

I always found the notion funny that ones need universall vacuum but the pets are trash anyway. Like... would you even play cats/dogs if they HAD vacuum. Because I dont see it happen because people keep noting how you need to revive them (and thats annoying),  how they kill when you dont want them too (and thats annoying), how they are so expensive to maintain (and thats annoying)....

I have a feeling most of you wont be using kavats even if they gained vacuum... yet fight so hard for it.

They said the same thing about carrier vs other sentinels. Yet, people still claim to always use Carrier for ammo mutation (!?). I honestly think it's more about habit than it is utility. 

.

Edited February 24, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[TheRealDestian]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

Said it before, but I'll repeat it here:

Vacuum picks up Energy/Health orbs, which in turn allows certain playstyles to optimize.  Keeping energy up for Ember WoF or Wukong Defy, for example.  Am I saying they NEED those? No...but that IS a combat-useful trait of vacuums.  It does affect things, however minute one may consider that.

Thank you for at least making a valid counterargument in a thread where most seem content to simply call people stupid or lazy for wanting it to be universal.

I think I'd be fine with the tradeoff if vacuum also increased energy, health, and ammo drops by a fixed % or something. Then it would at least have a tangible influence on combat for all builds.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

On 2/24/2018 at 12:24 PM, TheRealDestian said:

Thank you for at least making a valid counterargument in a thread where most seem content to simply call people stupid or lazy for wanting it to be universal.

I think I'd be fine with the tradeoff if vacuum also increased energy, health, and ammo drops by a fixed % or something. Then it would at least have a tangible influence on combat for all builds.

You're welcome.  I'm here to debate/discuss   and learn/teach.  I have no interest in petty name-calling (I'm not perfect and will tend to fight back when struck at first but....) I honestly don't understand why people are so quick to attack others here.

We can learn alot and teach alot from/to each other.  

Never a master, always a student.

[Ethorin]

On 2/23/2018 at 2:44 PM, TheRealDestian said:

Those aren't QoL mods because they have a direct impact on actual combat

wait? more hacking time impacts combat directly? O.o?

That said since I suppose you can argue that for Zoom and stuff, here's one that if you argue it does you have to argue Vacuum does as well, Master Thief. Gives you a 40% chance of popping a closed locker open.

[TheRealDestian]

1 hour ago, Ethorin said:

wait? more hacking time impacts combat directly? O.o?

That said since I suppose you can argue that for Zoom and stuff, here's one that if you argue it does you have to argue Vacuum does as well, Master Thief. Gives you a 40% chance of popping a closed locker open.

Depends on the mission, but there can be some form of combat-related punishment (ie more enemy spawns) if you fail a hack.

None of it would be an issue if QoL mods all went into your warframe instead of a pet (right now, there are some that go into the warframe). It's the limiting of QoL mod availability based upon pet choice that makes no sense to me.

I feel like the devs fell into the trap of using pets as extra mod space for mods that should've just been for a warframe, but they feared the backlash of adding them because of how many people would say, "What?! You expect me to waste mod space on my frame for THAT?!"