Does anyone actuality enjoy beam weapons right now?

[rune_me]

35 minutes ago, Khift said:

Why should anybody, ever, bring a weapon that takes 1 second - per target - to ramp up to the same damage output that a comparable hitscan weapon does instantly - in a horde shooter of all genres?

Erh, because I have fun doing it, right? Dude, this is not religion or politics. It's a videogame. The only reason any of us plays it, is to have fun. I don't care that the Sybaris Prime is not the best weapon in the game, because it is the weapon I enjoy using the most, so that is what I will use. The Braton Prime certainly don't outperform the Tigris Prime, but I just love the way it fires and sounds, so I will use it over the Tigris Prime 9 times out of 10. With the right mods and enough forma you can make any half decent weapon viable for sorties, so just use what you have fun with. That's the absolutely only thing that matters.

Let me repeat: it's a video game, you play it to have fun, nothing else!

[Khift]

7 minutes ago, KotoKuraken said:

I offered to help you out with the builds, and which beam weapon you have a problem with, since you generalized them all and never really specified which beam weapon you thought sucked.

You wanted to try and publicly establish that you know more about the game. That's what you were actually doing. It's very obvious, very underhanded, and very uncalled for.

And as for the question - yes, they all suck, with exceptions given to the Amprex for its multi-target capability and the Quanta Vandal because it's just that overtuned.

It's not a matter of builds. It's a matter of fact. I am perfectly capable of building them, using them, and then calculating their DPS and realizing that even after having ramped up they do less DPS than an average high-end hitscan weapon. What made them good before was that they had very good status application which makes up for their below average damage output.

And now, under actual gameplay circumstances, they are doing 60-75% as much damage as they were before. The Amprex and Quanta Vandal, which were probably too good beforehand, are now only fine, but the entire rest of the weapon class now ranges from 'meh' to 'actively bad'.

[KotoKuraken]

1 minute ago, Khift said:

You wanted to try and publicly establish that you know more about the game. That's what you were actually doing. It's very obvious, very underhanded, and very uncalled for.

And as for the question - yes, they all suck, with exceptions given to the Amprex for its multi-target capability and the Quanta Vandal because it's just that overtuned.

It's not a matter of builds. It's a matter of fact. I am perfectly capable of building them, using them, and then calculating their DPS and realizing that even after having ramped up they do less DPS than an average high-end hitscan weapon. What made them good before was that they had very good status application which makes up for their below average damage output.

And now, under actual gameplay circumstances, they are doing 60-75% as much damage as they were before. The Amprex and Quanta Vandal, which were probably too good beforehand, are now only fine, but the entire rest of the weapon class now ranges from 'meh' to 'actively bad'.

I see that you are taking this personally, because offering to help with builds does not translate to "I know more than you". In my community, no matter how well we know about builds, collaboration leads to interesting results. Ask others, no matter how smart you think you are.

As far as damage, I have not had the same results as you. Each of the beam weapons in my possession (Amprex, Quanta Vandal, Ignis Wraith, Glaxion, Cycron, Synoid Gammacor, Nukor, and Atomos) have all increased their damage output dramatically when tailoring to the new crit and status numbers they have received in the buff. They received proper status mechanics with their rework, and it's only served to make them stronger. I don't know why going from flat damage to status damage would make them weaker than they were, and I have yet to reflect evidence of a nerf.

The setups I'm using to make these weapons viable:

• Corrosive Hunter Munitions with Amprex
• Radiation Viral with Quanta Vandal
• Viral Heat and Hunter Munitions with Ignis Wraith
• Radiation Viral with Glaxion
• Corrosive, Radiation, Cold, and Maim with Cycron
• Corrosive Magnetic on Synoid Gammacor with a crit status hybrid build
• Corrosive, Radiation, and Blast with Nukor
• Radiation Viral with Atomos

Now if there's any specifics you want to ask about the builds, go right ahead. These are geared towards killing enemies with high armor, and I usually test them on lvl 150 Corrupted Heavy Gunner and Corrupted Bombard to test their limits, then hop into sorties or high level bounties to see how they do in the field.

[SneakyErvin]

11 minutes ago, Khift said:

You wanted to try and publicly establish that you know more about the game. That's what you were actually doing. It's very obvious, very underhanded, and very uncalled for.

And as for the question - yes, they all suck, with exceptions given to the Amprex for its multi-target capability and the Quanta Vandal because it's just that overtuned.

It's not a matter of builds. It's a matter of fact. I am perfectly capable of building them, using them, and then calculating their DPS and realizing that even after having ramped up they do less DPS than an average high-end hitscan weapon. What made them good before was that they had very good status application which makes up for their below average damage output.

And now, under actual gameplay circumstances, they are doing 60-75% as much damage as they were before. The Amprex and Quanta Vandal, which were probably too good beforehand, are now only fine, but the entire rest of the weapon class now ranges from 'meh' to 'actively bad'.

Sounds to me like you simply havent tested them. Just going and saying that "they had very good status application" implies you havent tested them properly now. They have much better status application now along with a major increase in damage. You sound like you look at things on paper, not in action. That "very good status application" they had was trash, hence why most everyone is happy that it is gone. The new mechanics support mods that werent possible to use at all prior to these changes. Some of the weapons have become power houses with specific set ups. Things that took ages to kill before are now mowed down with certain builds

[Khift]

2 minutes ago, KotoKuraken said:

I see that you are taking this personally, because offering to help with builds does not translate to "I know more than you". In my community, no matter how well we know about builds, collaboration leads to interesting results. Ask others, no matter how smart you think you are.

Offering to help with builds in the context of us arguing over the performance of a weapon implies, extremely heavily, that I don't know how to build said weapon. And yes, that is a straight out personal attack aimed entirely at you establishing your dominance over the person you're arguing with. Blatant ad-hominem doesn't win you arguments.

 

6 minutes ago, KotoKuraken said:

As far as damage, I have not had the same results as you. Each of the beam weapons in my possession (Amprex, Quanta Vandal, Ignis Wraith, Glaxion, Cycron, Synoid Gammacor, Nukor, and Atomos) have all increased their damage output dramatically when tailoring to the new crit and status numbers they have received in the buff. They received proper status mechanics with their rework, and it's only served to make them stronger. I don't know why going from flat damage to status damage would make them weaker than they were, and I have yet to reflect evidence of a nerf.

And now you're just twisting my words for the sake of making points. No, I'm not arguing that the beam weapon update - as a whole - has decreased their damage output. I shouldn't even have to type that. I'm stating that beam weapons right now are doing 60-75% as much damage as they were before the nerf hotfix on Friday. The entire context of the conversation is about that nerf hotfix. You would know this if you were actually paying attention and arguing in good faith, but I'm not certain you are any more given the repeated ad-hominem and the inability to muster up a counterpoint.

[Zeclem]

3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Sounds to me like you simply havent tested them. Just going and saying that "they had very good status application" implies you havent tested them properly now. They have much better status application now along with a major increase in damage. You sound like you look at things on paper, not in action. That "very good status application" they had was trash, hence why most everyone is happy that it is gone. The new mechanics support mods that werent possible to use at all prior to these changes. Some of the weapons have become power houses with specific set ups. Things that took ages to kill before are now mowed down with certain builds

i tested them. both before and after hotfix. both in simulacrum against lvl 155 corrupted gunners and in sorties. 

and i wouldnt notice a nerf if i didnt read the forums whine threads. 

[Khift]

3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Sounds to me like you simply havent tested them. Just going and saying that "they had very good status application" implies you havent tested them properly now. They have much better status application now along with a major increase in damage. You sound like you look at things on paper, not in action. That "very good status application" they had was trash, hence why most everyone is happy that it is gone. The new mechanics support mods that werent possible to use at all prior to these changes. Some of the weapons have become power houses with specific set ups. Things that took ages to kill before are now mowed down with certain builds

Context. It matters.

My argument has never once been that the beam weapon update made the weapons weaker. My argument has always been that the nerf on friday has reduced their damage to 60-75% of what it was when the beam weapon update hit.

[KotoKuraken]

1 minute ago, Khift said:

Offering to help with builds in the context of us arguing over the performance of a weapon implies, extremely heavily, that I don't know how to build said weapon. And yes, that is a straight out personal attack aimed entirely at you establishing your dominance over the person you're arguing with. Blatant ad-hominem doesn't win you arguments.

And now you're just twisting my words for the sake of making points. No, I'm not arguing that the beam weapon update - as a whole - has decreased their damage output. I shouldn't even have to type that. I'm stating that beam weapons right now are doing 60-75% as much damage as they were before the nerf hotfix on Friday. The entire context of the conversation is about that nerf hotfix. You would know this if you were actually paying attention and arguing in good faith, but I'm not certain you are any more given the repeated ad-hominem and the inability to muster up a counterpoint.

*sigh*

Offering is not an offensive thing, it's a comradery thing. As I stated before, when more minds get together and collaborate builds, you make something great. The fact you don't specify the reasons or weapons that are in the offense of being horrible makes me think that you're just complaining to complain. And not once have I said anything directed towards belittling you, so that's why I can only imagine that you're taking it personally

I don't intend to twist words, but that may be how you're interpreting it. If you don't want to try to make good builds for the new weapons, then just say you don't want to try

 

[Khift]

1 minute ago, KotoKuraken said:

Offering is not an offensive thing,

It is when it's done with a very, very obvious subtext.

Subtext like this:

1 minute ago, KotoKuraken said:

 If you don't want to try to make good builds for the new weapons, then just say you don't want to try

Blatant ad-hominem. You couldn't come up with an argument against how target swapping significantly decreases beam weapon's damage output now, so instead you call me a bad player and act like I can't mod weapons. What's really funny is how bad some of the suggested builds you put up were. Rad/viral on Quanta Vandal? Really? You've got a weapon with potentially the best status application in the game, and you give it two status effects that don't need more than one application to be effective. No, the optimal build for Quanta Vandal is a pure corrosive hybrid crit/status build, unless you're fighting Corpus at which point who cares it's Corpus.

Learn how to mod weapons yourself before insulting others on how to do it.

[J1ha7]

i loved them i love em even more .. meh but im waitin my 600 for shred ignis :D to ramp up that dmg again :P

[KotoKuraken]

31 minutes ago, Khift said:

It is when it's done with a very, very obvious subtext.

Subtext like this:

Blatant ad-hominem. You couldn't come up with an argument against how target swapping significantly decreases beam weapon's damage output now, so instead you call me a bad player and act like I can't mod weapons. What's really funny is how bad some of the suggested builds you put up were. Rad/viral on Quanta Vandal? Really? You've got a weapon with potentially the best status application in the game, and you give it two status effects that don't need more than one application to be effective. No, the optimal build for Quanta Vandal is a pure corrosive hybrid crit/status build, unless you're fighting Corpus at which point who cares it's Corpus.

Learn how to mod weapons yourself before insulting others on how to do it.

again, you make me sound like I'm belittling when I haven't. You are taking this personally, you're doing everything you can to discredit me while offering no input, then you actually belittle me by telling me that I'm horrible at modding weapons. You are extremely hypcritical, and your perception of insults is one-sided to where you're literally the only one throwing insults here. I said you didn't have to try to make a good build if you didn't want to, because you get so pissed off when people ask you to collaborate. The only times you ever gave actual feedback was on a negative note, not once have you actually said anything good about beam weapons or the builds, despite acknowledging that some are actually powerful. Stop taking things personally when people don't even mean to give it personally, especially when they genuinely want to help. It's toxic.

Just...can we have a moderator lock this thread? Clearly OP isn't intent on discussion.

Edited February 25, 2018 by KotoKuraken

[Khift]

29 minutes ago, KotoKuraken said:

again, you make me sound like I'm belittling when I haven't. You are taking this personally, you're doing everything you can to discredit me while offering no input, then you actually belittle me by telling me that I'm horrible at modding weapons. You are extremely hypcritical, and your perception of insults is one-sided to where you're literally the only one throwing insults here. I said you didn't have to try to make a good build if you didn't want to, because you get so pissed off when people ask you to collaborate. The only times you ever gave actual feedback was on a negative note, not once have you actually said anything good about beam weapons or the builds, despite acknowledging that some are actually powerful. Stop taking things personally when people don't even mean to give it personally, especially when they genuinely want to help. It's toxic.

Just...can we have a moderator lock this thread? Clearly OP isn't intent on discussion.

I respond to insults in kind, yes. You have very obviously given up any intent of arguing in good faith and so I see no reason why I should maintain that with you either. You try to act like you've got a moral high ground in claiming that I don't know how to mod weapons, but you ignore the point that is actually made and still stands to this post - the point that target swapping decreases beam weapon damage by a very significant amount. If you want things to actually progress then try and come up with some sort of counterargument against that rather than continue to sling ad-hominem.

And yes, you do mean it to be taken personally. Maybe not consciously, people don't always consciously recognize what they're doing, but it's a very blatant dominance-enforcing tactic that was entirely intentional. Take responsibility the things you say and do and stop being so patronizing -- especially given that your listed examples show you aren't as good at modding as you claim to be.

[KotoKuraken]

2 minutes ago, Khift said:

I respond to insults in kind, yes. You have very obviously given up any intent of arguing in good faith and so I see no reason why I should maintain that with you either. You try to act like you've got a moral high ground in claiming that I don't know how to mod weapons, but you ignore the point that is actually made and still stands to this post - the point that target swapping decreases beam weapon damage by a very significant amount. If you want things to actually progress then try and come up with some sort of counterargument against that rather than continue to sling ad-hominem.

And yes, you do mean it to be taken personally. Maybe not consciously, people don't always consciously recognize what they're doing, but it's a very blatant dominance-enforcing tactic that was entirely intentional. Take responsibility the things you say and do and stop being so patronizing -- especially given that your listed examples show you aren't as good at modding as you claim to be.

I have never acted like I have the moral high ground, I was genuinely trying to figure out why you were having such a hard time with weapons that aren't bad. I never consciously nor unconsciously insulted you, as I never said you were bad at modding weapons. Literally never. I even repeatedly stated that it's smart to share builds. I don't know how I could be clearer about my intentions.

I gave up on the argument because you don't take any criticism, you only look for insults and claiming "oh he must be unconsciously thinking something bad even though it looks like he's trying to help". Some people truly mean what they say, not some hidden double meaning. If you want constructive feedback and logical arguments, consider what people say at face value

[rune_me]

8 minutes ago, Khift said:

I respond to insults in kind, yes. You have very obviously given up any intent of arguing in good faith and so I see no reason why I should maintain that with you either. You try to act like you've got a moral high ground in claiming that I don't know how to mod weapons, but you ignore the point that is actually made and still stands to this post - the point that target swapping decreases beam weapon damage by a very significant amount. If you want things to actually progress then try and come up with some sort of counterargument against that rather than continue to sling ad-hominem.

And yes, you do mean it to be taken personally. Maybe not consciously, people don't always consciously recognize what they're doing, but it's a very blatant dominance-enforcing tactic that was entirely intentional. Take responsibility the things you say and do and stop being so patronizing -- especially given that your listed examples show you aren't as good at modding as you claim to be.

Dude, just stop. You're being a total hypocrite here, accusing others of "blatant ad-hominem" and making assumptions about you and not arguing "in good faith"

But seriously, these were your very first words to him:

2 hours ago, Khift said:

The only person who hasn't tested anything is yourself.

That's "blatant ad-hominem" my friend. That's making assumptions and being insulting. That's not "arguing in good faith". You started the argument down that road from the very beginning, and then you start complaining that someone else is doing it afterwards.

[Khift]

1 minute ago, KotoKuraken said:

I have never acted like I have the moral high ground, I was genuinely trying to figure out why you were having such a hard time with weapons that aren't bad. I never consciously nor unconsciously insulted you, as I never said you were bad at modding weapons. Literally never. I even repeatedly stated that it's smart to share builds. I don't know how I could be clearer about my intentions.

I gave up on the argument because you don't take any criticism, you only look for insults and claiming "oh he must be unconsciously thinking something bad even though it looks like he's trying to help". Some people truly mean what they say, not some hidden double meaning. If you want constructive feedback and logical arguments, consider what people say at face value

More moralizing, patronizing garbage. You're not doing yourself any favors by continuing to sit on a high horse and pretend you weren't doing what you were obviously doing. You couldn't win the argument at hand, so you came at me personally and got called out for it.

The point still stands. Beam weapons do 60-75% as much damage now as they did before Friday's nerf.

[Khift]

1 minute ago, rune_me said:

That's "blatant ad-hominem" my friend. That's making assumptions and being insulting. That's not "arguing in good faith". You started the argument down that road from the very beginning, and then you start complaining that someone else is doing it afterwards.

You realize that that quote was in response to him claiming someone else hadn't tested it personally, yes? Acting like I started this when I only came in half-through is pretty amusing.

[Guest]

Actually, the killing time of my Cycron is still ... acceptable. I took it into a Kuva Flood yesterday and it kills the Guardians fine. It also made pretty short work of all the trash mobs. Before the buff it was only Sortie II viable, but now it can be taken with confidence to anywhere.

It also charges antimatter drop much faster than it did before, which is nice. All it needs is a short burst, and Nova's main nuke is ready to go.

But it just isn't the same as that one day where beam weapons really shone.

Edited February 25, 2018 by Guest

[rune_me]

3 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

Actually, the killing time of my Cycron is still ... acceptable. I took it into a Kuva Flood yesterday and it kills the Guardians fine. It also made pretty short work of all the trash mobs. Before the buff it was only Sortie II viable, but now it can be taken with confidence to anywhere.

It also charges antimatter drop much faster than it did before, which is nice. All it needs is a short burst, and Nova's main nuke is ready to go.

But it just isn't the same as that one day where beam weapons really shone.

What must suck the most, is being one of the top five or six most viewed Warframe YouTubers. They all rushed out videos to test the new beam weapon changes. "Now beam weapons are awesome" ... "Now this weapon is one of the best in the game" etc, etc. Then the next day, a hotfix. "Damn you DE!!!"

[Guest]

Just now, rune_me said:

What must suck the most, is being one of the top five or six most viewed Warframe YouTubers. They all rushed out videos to test the new beam weapon changes. "Now beam weapons are awesome" ... "Now this weapon is one of the best in the game" etc, etc. Then the next day, a hotfix. "Damn you DE!!!"

The guy who made the "Rivenless Amprex" vid must be so sad now...

[TheGrimCorsair]

Pretty well enjoy most of them. The ramp-up per target isn't all that bad for most of the ones I've played around with as of late, save for the Convectrix. Its mechanics really don't work with per target ramp up, and its ammo economy is pants. Still solid enough to bring into sorties, finally, but eh... it's definitely worse than its counterparts.

[SneakyErvin]

11 hours ago, Khift said:

Context. It matters.

My argument has never once been that the beam weapon update made the weapons weaker. My argument has always been that the nerf on friday has reduced their damage to 60-75% of what it was when the beam weapon update hit.

Still looks like you only talk about it through stats on a paper. That damage decrease is only true if the fight lasts 1 second, since obviously you lost damage due to the ramp-up increase of 0.2 seconds. When the fight lasts longer, which it mostly does, that lost damage is neglectable, since you only lose damage on the initial second of a fight.

You are arguing about 0.2 seconds, something that is only really visible with paper math and has close to zero impact on real action.

edit: Also, if you are going to claim you never argued about beam weapons being stronger before the big changes (not friday patch) dont go and mention the old status chance like it was a good thing.

Edited February 25, 2018 by SneakyErvin

[Khift]

12 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Still looks like you only talk about it through stats on a paper. That damage decrease is only true if the fight lasts 1 second, since obviously you lost damage due to the ramp-up increase of 0.2 seconds. When the fight lasts longer, which it mostly does, that lost damage is neglectable, since you only lose damage on the initial second of a fight.

You are arguing about 0.2 seconds, something that is only really visible with paper math and has close to zero impact on real action.

edit: Also, if you are going to claim you never argued about beam weapons being stronger before the big changes (not friday patch) dont go and mention the old status chance like it was a good thing.

Two things:

Firstly, the 0.2 second change is not the problem. The problem is that the ramp up now occurs per target and not per beam usage. Before, you started holding the button down and it ramped up from 10% to 100%, and once fully ramped up so long as you continued to hold the button down. Now, every time you swap to a new target you have to go through that ramp up period - and that's an enormous nerf to the weapon's functional damage output.

Secondly, again, I have never once claimed that anything about the Thursday patch nerfed beam weapons. I was referring to the weapon's strengths as of Thursday, where they had low range, slightly below average damage output, and very high status. Now, they have low range, pitiful damage output, and very high status.

 

 

As for the topic at hand, I sat down and took some video and did some testing, and I have to say that my initial gut feel guesstimate of the Friday nerf reducing weapons to 60-75% of their pre-nerf damage was actually too generous. Looking at the actual data, it's probably closer to 40-50% of the pre-nerf damage. However, part of this problem is that there is a currently a bug where the damage output does not tick down when you miss traces on a target but rather instantly resets to 10% after even a single missed trace, which is especially harmful to weapons like the Ignis Wraith which is encouraged to swap targets for maximum CC.

Here is the raw video I took:

 

This test was done with a Synapse with a max rank Serration, a max rank Point Strike, and an unranked Critical Delay. The Serration's purpose was to inflate the numbers and reduce rounding error, while the combination of a max rank Point Strike and unranked Critical Delay pushed the weapon to a 100.6% critical chance for maximum consistency. Slowing down the video, the damage ramp-up goes through the following series:

21 -> 32 -> 41 -> 54 -> 62 -> 73 -> 84 -> 95 -> 103 -> 113 -> 124 -> 127 (repeat ad infinitum)

Graphically, this translates to:

What this means, is that if you stay on target for 1 second (12 ticks), you've done 60% of the damage you would have dealt pre-nerf. If you stay on target for 2 seconds (24 ticks), you've done 80% of the damage you would do pre-nerf.

 

In my game experience, I spend less than a second per target, even in high-end sorties. Maybe that's unusual. Maybe I just really like to min-max my weapons. But in situations like that, beam weapons are going to do 40-50% of their listed damage output, and their listed damage output is already slightly below what a properly modded hitscan weapon can do (at the trade-off of typically having significantly higher status output).

Yesterday, the sortie had an Eximus Defense mission. I brought a fully loaded Ignis Wraith, kitted out with all the usual mods. The party managed to have both a Nova (2x damage) and a Rhino (2.117x damage) for a total of 4.234x weapon damage. The Ignis Wraith did okay, I didn't regret bringing it, and especially if I actually held it on target for a second things would die. The thing is, the unranked Pandero that was down two mods which I'd just dropped a Forma into and I brought simply to soak experience and level - it was oneshotting the Eximus enemies thanks to all the buffs. I do have a good riven on it, sure - but it was only running six total mods, and it outperformed the Ignis Wraith by a large margin. And that's the problem I'm having with these beam weapons. Can you do sorties with them? Yes, but you could also solo a sortie with a MK1 Braton if you were so inclined. That doesn't mean that the MK1 Braton is a good weapon choice. Fixing the ramp-up bug I discovered would definitely go a long way to improving the situation, but I still maintain that this is just far too extreme of a nerf and was simply not warranted. That a couple Youtubers overreacted and made really clickbaity videos about how beam weapons are god tier now does not justification for a 50% damage nerf make.

[dudefaceguy]

On 2/23/2018 at 4:37 PM, SnuggleBuckets said:

Hyperbole.
I love the new beam weapons, now I'm just faced with the horrible dilemma of having TOO MANY great guns that have gotten recent reworks that I want to use all of them now.

This is really true: we have too many great guns now. The Quanta Vandal has earned a place in my Harrow build for the ease of headshotting. Synoid Gammacor is amazing, Cycron is still useful for CC and buffing CO melee, etc. Beam weapons are just really good now.

Of course if you spend a lot of time missing the target they will be bad, but that's obviously true of any weapon.

Edit: here's some testing I did in which I compare auto rifles with beam weapons, using a technique which is as unfavorable to the beams as possible. They perform comparably.

 

Edited February 26, 2018 by dudefaceguy

[SneakyErvin]

11 hours ago, Khift said:

Two things:

Firstly, the 0.2 second change is not the problem. The problem is that the ramp up now occurs per target and not per beam usage. Before, you started holding the button down and it ramped up from 10% to 100%, and once fully ramped up so long as you continued to hold the button down. Now, every time you swap to a new target you have to go through that ramp up period - and that's an enormous nerf to the weapon's functional damage output.

Secondly, again, I have never once claimed that anything about the Thursday patch nerfed beam weapons. I was referring to the weapon's strengths as of Thursday, where they had low range, slightly below average damage output, and very high status. Now, they have low range, pitiful damage output, and very high status.

 

 

As for the topic at hand, I sat down and took some video and did some testing, and I have to say that my initial gut feel guesstimate of the Friday nerf reducing weapons to 60-75% of their pre-nerf damage was actually too generous. Looking at the actual data, it's probably closer to 40-50% of the pre-nerf damage. However, part of this problem is that there is a currently a bug where the damage output does not tick down when you miss traces on a target but rather instantly resets to 10% after even a single missed trace, which is especially harmful to weapons like the Ignis Wraith which is encouraged to swap targets for maximum CC.

This test was done with a Synapse with a max rank Serration, a max rank Point Strike, and an unranked Critical Delay. The Serration's purpose was to inflate the numbers and reduce rounding error, while the combination of a max rank Point Strike and unranked Critical Delay pushed the weapon to a 100.6% critical chance for maximum consistency. Slowing down the video, the damage ramp-up goes through the following series:

21 -> 32 -> 41 -> 54 -> 62 -> 73 -> 84 -> 95 -> 103 -> 113 -> 124 -> 127 (repeat ad infinitum)

What this means, is that if you stay on target for 1 second (12 ticks), you've done 60% of the damage you would have dealt pre-nerf. If you stay on target for 2 seconds (24 ticks), you've done 80% of the damage you would do pre-nerf.

 

In my game experience, I spend less than a second per target, even in high-end sorties. Maybe that's unusual. Maybe I just really like to min-max my weapons. But in situations like that, beam weapons are going to do 40-50% of their listed damage output, and their listed damage output is already slightly below what a properly modded hitscan weapon can do (at the trade-off of typically having significantly higher status output).

Yesterday, the sortie had an Eximus Defense mission. I brought a fully loaded Ignis Wraith, kitted out with all the usual mods. The party managed to have both a Nova (2x damage) and a Rhino (2.117x damage) for a total of 4.234x weapon damage. The Ignis Wraith did okay, I didn't regret bringing it, and especially if I actually held it on target for a second things would die. The thing is, the unranked Pandero that was down two mods which I'd just dropped a Forma into and I brought simply to soak experience and level - it was oneshotting the Eximus enemies thanks to all the buffs. I do have a good riven on it, sure - but it was only running six total mods, and it outperformed the Ignis Wraith by a large margin. And that's the problem I'm having with these beam weapons. Can you do sorties with them? Yes, but you could also solo a sortie with a MK1 Braton if you were so inclined. That doesn't mean that the MK1 Braton is a good weapon choice. Fixing the ramp-up bug I discovered would definitely go a long way to improving the situation, but I still maintain that this is just far too extreme of a nerf and was simply not warranted. That a couple Youtubers overreacted and made really clickbaity videos about how beam weapons are god tier now does not justification for a 50% damage nerf make.

You are arguing for a single target weapon. Sure the ramp up may be inconveniant, but it is there to balance the weapon usage. You are, as I said, making this about extremely short fights, where it serves no purpose. In actual fights the ramp up is neglectable. It is all just papers and graphs which applies very little to the actual game. The beam weapons dont have to deal with spread or recoil, something that is there to balance other weapons.

And as to your comment about status, the way you worded it you make it sound like you are talking about pre-patch altogether, since their status application or damage output through it hasnt changed remarkably between thursday and friday patch.

And just to make it clear again. Under the circumstances you tested them, it doesnt matter if they gained or lost damage since that window of action is over in most cases before the ramp up even takes effect. In longer fights the ramp up is trivial because the slight loss in damage for dodging away etc. will be so very low on the end result.

And regarding your anecdotal story. Of course the Pandero with 6 mods, one being a good riven, will one-shot eximus units compared to an AoE weapon. It is called balance, you are comparing a heavy AoE weapon that holds 200ish rounds to a weapon with 8 rounds. It is a high crit weapon in every aspect, meaning it will deal massive damage regularly.

[Khift]

26 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

You are arguing for a single target weapon. Sure the ramp up may be inconveniant, but it is there to balance the weapon usage. You are, as I said, making this about extremely short fights, where it serves no purpose. In actual fights the ramp up is neglectable. It is all just papers and graphs which applies very little to the actual game. The beam weapons dont have to deal with spread or recoil, something that is there to balance other weapons.

I'm not going to lie - I feel like I'm talking to people who either have never seriously played Warframe or who are intentionally ignoring their own game experience for the sake of making arguments. Before making my post last night, just to make sure I wasn't crazy, I polled my clan mates, and asked them how long, in their estimation, it takes to kill a normal enemy in a Kuva Flood or third sortie, and out of approximately 15 responses there was not a single person who responded they thought it took 1 second or longer. Every response was some variety of "half a second" or "under a second".

I'm making this about "extremely short fights" because that's what the game is actually made up of. If you haven't experienced that, then I suggest you actually go play Warframe for once; it's more fun than arguing on the forums, that's for sure.

 

26 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And just to make it clear again. Under the circumstances you tested them, it doesnt matter if they gained or lost damage since that window of action is over in most cases before the ramp up even takes effect. In longer fights the ramp up is trivial because the slight loss in damage for dodging away etc. will be so very low on the end result.

Except that no, it does matter. The enemies, individually, are not very strong - sure - but there are a whole lot of them. Warframe is a horde shooter. That's what it is. It may not have been DE's intent for it to turn out that way, but the ship has sailed on that horizon I'm afraid. A weapon that takes a second to kill what another weapon takes half a second to kill - sure, it's only half a second, until you're staring down thirty enemies and now it's fifteen seconds.

 

26 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And regarding your anecdotal story. Of course the Pandero with 6 mods, one being a good riven, will one-shot eximus units compared to an AoE weapon. It is called balance, you are comparing a heavy AoE weapon that holds 200ish rounds to a weapon with 8 rounds. It is a high crit weapon in every aspect, meaning it will deal massive damage regularly.

An "AoE" weapon that has better per target DPS than most of the beam weapons in the game. Maybe that's unbalanced, I don't really care, but the Ignis Wraith when properly built is solidly in the top half of beam weapons in terms of damage output. Put, say, the Phage there, which has slightly less damage output and no AoE gimmick, and suddenly the beam weapon is just garbage in comparison to a hitscan weapon. Can it get the job done? Yes, it could. Would I ever recommend the Phage with the current beam weapon mechanics? No, no I wouldn't, not unless the only thing you're ever going to use it for is killing level 150 bombards in the simulacrum.