Slide Attack/Maiming Strike/Whip and Polearm range -- an absurd mixture of overpoweredness

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

8 minutes ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

Please, remove Mag from this. She's better now than she ever was, without spam nor 1-sec-room-cleaning gimmick, yet incredibly good.

Ash was a Press-4-to-win with his old Bladestorm, and even if it was indeed a nerf, at least he's not as bad as he was broken.

Telos Boltace were just another Spin-2-win crap and was nerfed because it was game breaking, just like what we are talking about right now, in this thread. 

If Saryn's Spore was nerfed (I don't use her so I never noticed), then that's a good thing too. People would litteraly sit still, cast Molt, then spam spores and some weapn like the Ignis to make them spread. Brainless gameplay at it's finest.

The Synoid Simulor, paired with Mirage, was one of the worst thing to ever happen in Warframe, both in terms of gameplay and visual/auditive annoyance. 

 

Don't forget why those things were nerfed, Voltage. The MS+BR+High Ranged Melees is just as bad if not worst in some cases and no, you'll not force me to play solo or with inexistant friends (because some people don't have friends who play Warframe, you know?) everytime I want to do a mission just so I can ignore the problem. 

So lets ask some mag players what they think [Radio silence]

What to the telos boltace users think [radio silence] 

Yea lets nerf spore too thats a fantastic idea, not fix her 4 or anything not that her spore spam is only "broken" on low armored targets

Oh, I cant dial down the glare in my video game. Let's nerf a weapon to uselessness, lets nerf a bunch of weapons to uselessless and wait a year or two later to buff the weapons that actually needed more attention

 

"Don't forget why those things were nerfed, Voltage. The MS+BR+High Ranged Melees is just as bad if not worst in some cases and no, you'll not force me to play solo or with inexistant friends (because some people don't have friends who play Warframe, you know?) every time I want to do a mission just so I can ignore the problem. "

 

No i forget why, because De nerfs things then proceeds to add things that are even more broken than what was previously nerfed. So please enlighten me as to why not give all melees a unique feature like maiming crit instead of just removing maiming crit

[XaoGarrent]

7 minutes ago, Vindicus8235 said:

I've been saying this for years.

Jokes aside though, where's your actual counter argument?  We can flip words and play with semantics all day long, but I'd rather not derail my own thread. 

Slide attack spam is objectively superior to all other playstyles for most activities in Warframe.  Source:  Observable gameplay

Make me a short list of things that trump slide attack spam if you would.  I'd love to be proven wrong.  I'm very interested, legitimately.

Make a short list? Are you kidding me? There is no short list. There's only a long list. I'd have to sit here and write you an essay if I was going to make a list. Ever tried running a poweful AoE weapon on Saryn or Volt? My Volt doesn't even need that, I just hit 4 and anything but extremely high level Grineer falls over. If you think old Ember was bad, you haven't seen ANYTHING. While the map nuking potential isn't as high, ever put an Opitcor on Mirage and fired into a crowd of enemies with all your buffs up? Do I need to mention Equinox? How about Mesa? You have no clue at all.

You never made any valid arguments. You can't pose a counter argument against someone who's spewing fallacious logic. There's nothing to argue against.

If that's "observable gameplay" to you, it's time for you to see an optometrist.

Edited March 13, 2018 by XaoGarrent

[(PSN)ATreidezz]

A new member of this forum who just joined this YEAR, with small rep suddenly opening a thread asking for a nerf... 

 

Hm... nothing strange right? 

[Megatron_TheConqueror]

Someone got more kills than me, so we should nerf their gear. 

[YsanneIsard]

Let's all get back on track and keep this on topic. The subject of the argument is what's important, not the motive.

Something should be clarified.

Sorties are not the end game and should not be the basis for balance.

The levels in the game go well above sortie and that's were maiming is meaningful. 300k vs 30k doesn't matter at the sortie level but lvl 500 enemies aren't going to be tickled by 30k. For players who enjoy that high level play, using their damage dealing method in sorties is just efficient. Other endless builds are just as "overpowered" at the sortie level. High range/high strength Pacify Equinox trivializes interceptions (and other modes). Hell, I hate limbo (#DEplsdelete) but he is pretty damn powerful and can turn many modes into a joke. While maiming builds are effective at several modes, they do not trivialize everything. You cannot spin to win in rescue/spy. 

Spin to win is noticeable at the sortie level as it is effective at killing things and very adaptable to the sortie modifiers. No energy? No problem.
(Insert-modifier-that-makes-enemies-tougher) and I will grab the heaviest hitting thing I have (melee) on the most survivable frame if I'm in a rush.
(Primaries/secondaries only)  and then I will mix things up and cheese it with a warframe instead.

If the modifiers messed with the melee people a bit more, eh, I'd be okay with that. 

Nerfing melee directly shouldn't be the first answer. Guns have range over melee. Currently most sturdy frames can use a melee weapon and not die. Make close quarters combat a little more dangerous (using a sortie modifier) and then things might balance out a bit more. Maybe not. Cheese will always stink. Not saying to not mix things up but there is no end to this road.

[bronzebonobo]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)ATreidezz said:

A new member of this forum who just joined this YEAR, with small rep suddenly opening a thread asking for a nerf... 

 

Hm... nothing strange right? 

same story, they don't have any really good weapons yet, they don't see that we want to blast through sorties as fast as humanly possible because all we get is endo and sculptures every damn time, don't worry though, he will soon realize how poop trash garbage the rewards are and want to speed run them anyways.

[Vindicus8235]

You're becoming quite aggressive over this topic.  If we could bring it down a notch and keep it a bit more on the civil side that would be great.

Equinox is quite a popular slide attacker.  How fast can she build up max maim with some sleep>slide attack sweeps?  You may have something with Mesa, she's incredibly strong and I'd say an outlier as far as dps frames are concerned.  I enjoy Mesa but wouldn't even be a tiny bit surprised for her to be brought down a few pegs.  I don't play Volt or Mirage but in 16 mastery ranks of pub games and sorties have never seen anything overly impressive from them, except for as slide attackers.

You still have provided no evidence of anything that compares to the potency of slide attacks other than listing a few frames that are great as slide attackers, and Mesa.  I'm still excited to find something as strong or stronger than slide attack spam, I'd very much like to see it in action.

[(PSN)ATreidezz]

8 minutes ago, bronzebonobo said:

same story, they don't have any really good weapons yet, they don't see that we want to blast through sorties as fast as humanly possible because all we get is endo and sculptures every damn time, don't worry though, he will soon realize how poop trash garbage the rewards are and want to speed run them anyways.

Yeah, 

And its not like sorties limit our weapon use right? I mean, every sorties can be cheesed with spin-2-win melee right? Its not like there are sorties with sniper only/rifle only/shotgun only/secondary only right? 

 

Which is why melee spin deserves a nerf #logic

Edited March 13, 2018 by (PS4)ATreidezz

[WindigoTG]

On 13.03.2018 at 10:21 AM, jiminatorx said:

LOL balance in a pve game. what exactly is being balanced? Should every player be doing 25% of the damage? Will that be sufficient? Does that include low level players?

You can put it that way, yes, more or less.

One player dealing up to 90% damage, robbing other players of the ability to participate in a game is far from being balanced in any sense of the word.

Other players not only must have an ability to contribute to the game, contribution from everyone must be a mandatory in a co-op game. Otherwise it defeats the point of even being a co-op game in the first place.

Edited March 15, 2018 by WindigoTG

[Vindicus8235]

16 minutes ago, (PS4)ATreidezz said:

A new member of this forum who just joined this YEAR, with small rep suddenly opening a thread asking for a nerf... 

 

Hm... nothing strange right? 

If you take note of my post count you'll see that it aligns perfectly with the number of posts I have in this thread as this is the first time I have visited the forums or posted on them!  I have spent the rest of my time playing and enjoying Warframe but after dozens of games ruined by slide attackers I decided to toss my hat in the ring and say something.  Glad to see this is a hot topic on the forum (wasn't aware of that).  Hopefully it will get the attention it deserves and be fixed sooner rather than later.

[(PSN)ATreidezz]

1 minute ago, Vindicus8235 said:

If you take note of my post count you'll see that it aligns perfectly with the number of posts I have in this thread as this is the first time I have visited the forums or posted on them!  I have spent the rest of my time playing and enjoying Warframe but after dozens of games ruined by slide attackers I decided to toss my hat in the ring and say something.  Glad to see this is a hot topic on the forum (wasn't aware of that).  Hopefully it will get the attention it deserves and be fixed sooner rather than later.

Ofc.... I mean, this game and its players should be what you want it to be, otherwise its not "fun & engaging", bcos those words only valid by your definition, not others... 

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

I hope the nerf horde mentality dies in a blazing glory of burnt out cigarettes into a glass dish.

[Voltage]

43 minutes ago, Vindicus8235 said:

I've played enough games and perused enough gaming forums to know when and why people come out in droves to defend something so specific as slide attack spam.  Hint:  It's not because it's fun, awesome or the most enjoyable mechanic they've ever encountered in a game.  I imagine you can figure out the true motives given some thought.  If you feel I was trying to instill a sense of guilt for defending such an unabashedly broken mechanic then you're not too far from the truth.

I didn't know your idea of fun dictates over mine. My idea of fun is the fastest way with the biggest numbers. Nerfing maiming strike doesn't stop me from playing how I want to. There is no guilt, just pure idiocy that trying to dictate how people play can be justified by a mechanic you disagree with. You don't need to use the mod, you don't need to use the mechanics, and you don't need to play with people who do. It is simple.

[Vindicus8235]

1 minute ago, --Q--Voltage said:

I didn't know your idea of fun dictates over mine. My idea of fun is the fastest way with the biggest numbers. Nerfing maiming strike doesn't stop me from playing how I want to. There is no guilt, just pure idiocy that trying to dictate how people play can be justified by a mechanic you disagree with. You don't need to use the mod, you don't need to use the mechanics, and you don't need to play with people who do. It is simple.

Certainly my idea of fun does not supersede your own and the inverse is also true.  You admit that you are a number chaser so I may infer that if slide attack wasn't top dog, you would abandon it for whatever is.  That's fine.  It only becomes not so fine whenever the play style is so over the top imbalanced that it begins to also negatively affect the game play of everyone around you.  If you were raiding in WoW, and mage had a spell so strong that it one-shot any raid boss, it would make the mage feel biiiig and poowwwwerful.  That's cool!  Everyone else involved would probably not enjoy themselves so much. 

It would not be a good idea to leave such powerful and game altering mechanics in a game focused on co-operative game play--where a single person could carry the all of the burden of the nasty boss fight on his own big strong shoulders, even though the other participants didn't want to be carried and would have very much liked the chance to..well..participate.

[XaoGarrent]

37 minutes ago, Vindicus8235 said:

You're becoming quite aggressive over this topic.  If we could bring it down a notch and keep it a bit more on the civil side that would be great.

Equinox is quite a popular slide attacker.  How fast can she build up max maim with some sleep>slide attack sweeps?  You may have something with Mesa, she's incredibly strong and I'd say an outlier as far as dps frames are concerned.  I enjoy Mesa but wouldn't even be a tiny bit surprised for her to be brought down a few pegs.  I don't play Volt or Mirage but in 16 mastery ranks of pub games and sorties have never seen anything overly impressive from them, except for as slide attackers.

You still have provided no evidence of anything that compares to the potency of slide attacks other than listing a few frames that are great as slide attackers, and Mesa.  I'm still excited to find something as strong or stronger than slide attack spam, I'd very much like to see it in action.

You've done nothing to prove the potency of slide attackers, all you've done is play the contrarian. Nobody owes you anything. You're demanding some kind of proof of something that anyone who knows the game already knows to be a fact, and you're doing this because you know nobody here is going to do a bunch of game capture and take the time to upload it somewhere to prove something so utterly basic. You literally have no argument, and you're going around trying to impugn other people, it's pathetic. You're getting a bad reaction because you're engaging in tortured logic and sophistry.

Literally any frame with a strong damage amp and a crit Opticor can do what you're asking. Go show yourself. If you can't figure out how, well guess what, that ain't my problem, nor is it the game's problem. You can go on your merry way thinking that memers are the only viable playstyle, I'm just here to tell you you're wrong, and I don't support this stupid nerf herding mentality.

Edited March 13, 2018 by XaoGarrent

[Voltage]

23 minutes ago, Vindicus8235 said:

Certainly my idea of fun does not supersede your own and the inverse is also true.  You admit that you are a number chaser so I may infer that if slide attack wasn't top dog, you would abandon it for whatever is.  That's fine.  It only becomes not so fine whenever the play style is so over the top imbalanced that it begins to also negatively affect the game play of everyone around you.  If you were raiding in WoW, and mage had a spell so strong that it one-shot any raid boss, it would make the mage feel biiiig and poowwwwerful.  That's cool!  Everyone else involved would probably not enjoy themselves so much. 

It would not be a good idea to leave such powerful and game altering mechanics in a game focused on co-operative game play--where a single person could carry the all of the burden of the nasty boss fight on his own big strong shoulders, even though the other participants didn't want to be carried and would have very much liked the chance to..well..participate.

We are talking Warframe not WoW. One is an MMORPG and one is a horde shooter. Likewise, I do not negatively impact the people around me because I am polite and find people that play like I do even if that means solo during that time.

Do you know why this happens? The game is designed around content that has little progression and mixes low tier, mid tier, and high tier players together. It isn't my fault that the end game of this game is Eidolons and fissures that are catered to mid tier. The (nonexistent) progression of the game that allows players to carry teams is why people beg for nerfs instead of addressing the root problem of matchmaking. I am not here to shame you, and it is not your fault since DE removed the content, but you have never attempted a Trial before they were removed. Trials are something that does not let you carry. You physically cannot do a trial by yourself no matter how hard you try (there is a solo JV run out there but that was heavily coordinated and required 3 players to start the mission).

The point I am making here is that if you want this game to be a balanced coop shooter, then you should play something else. The balance of this game is being overpowered. People complaining when things are out of line do not see the root cause. Evidence: Draco and Viver. Draco and Viver were the go-to spots for XP farming. People complained it choked the starchart and that it reduced mission variety for affinity. What does DE do? Fix the Affinity system? No, they removed the node in Update: Specters of the Rail and expect everything to be fine and Berehynia/Hydron totally wasn't seen coming by smart Veterans. Complaining about Maiming Strike is the exact same thing. The issue is matchmaking and challenging content, not the mod itself. It has some very good interactions with other mods that may need tweaking, but the root cause is having MR 25s in the same game as MR 10s for "late game content". If you want balance in this game, then you need to atleast address lack of progression and how this game will never have balance until players are actually challenged with their gear and rewarded appropriately. One-shotting Eidolon limbs for 50 minutes a night cycle is not challenge and neither is a level 100 Kuva Napalm in Sortie 3.

Edited March 13, 2018 by --Q--Voltage

[(XBOX)Madinogi]

3 hours ago, Vindicus8235 said:

I see there are quite a few eager to defend the enormous stature of the slide attack spam.  This is a sure sign that it's incredibly broken as outlined here and in numerous other threads.  I've only been playing for a few months now and have seen DE handle things that break the game quite nicely. 

I'm very excited to see slide attack spam brought into check so the game will be more enjoyable for everyone just trying to have a good time, and not just 1 out of 4 players on the team spamming slides.  100% enjoyment is a pipe dream, but 25% of the team having a good time can definitely be improved upon!

OR. heres a more CRAZIER concept. majority of people are just god damn tired of hearing folk like you constantly cry and moan about how other people play in a GOD DAMN PVE GAME and thus get them nerfed when they likely spent some time to even accomplish it. but someone like you doesn't like that thus gets them nerfed. probably a hint of jealousy also motivates you to get things nerfed. 

i also have been here for a few months. and i also am against this mindless nerf you propose. because Nerfing stuff in a PvE game is mindless stupidity at its finest. ive seen this mentality in other games and its what brought what semblance of balance Destiny 1 and Destiny 2 had to its knees and POOF gone. less not adopt the same cancerous mentality shall we? thankfully majority of game developers have common sense not to do this. 

 

You mean more enjoyable for YOU. not everyone. you dont speak for everyone. stop trying to impose your will and way of play onto others ok? you dont like playing with them you can always get a group of like minded people from either friends or recruit chat and go have fun without ruining everyone else fun. remember PUB games are a luck of the draw. you get the lobby you can love or tolerate but at times you will get the lobby you hate. at those points you leave. its what you should expect when joining a PUB game. 

 

TL:DR 

Stop calling for pointless nerfing in a PvE game and stop imposing your will onto others. Nobody likes a dictator. except the dictator him/herself and those in close relations with said dictator. 

 

[WindigoTG]

Just now, (XB1)Madinogi said:

stop imposing your will onto others. Nobody likes a dictator. except the dictator him/herself and those in close relations with said dictator. 

 

Why does a dictator with maming strike has the right to impose their will and dictate the rest of the team how to (not) play?

Edited March 13, 2018 by WindigoTG

[GenomexXx]

This is the thing.  I'm fine with maiming strike having the ability to do incredible amounts of damage but what I'm not ok with "is the spaming with no effort macro hotkey kind of players". They kill all the enemies on the tile set. While dashing to the next room, the maiming strike player and I will either race toe to toe.  The maiming strike player will clear 80 percent of room or I start to sprint to the next room, give up, and discover that the room is clear.  Maiming Strike players use zero skill with primary and secondary weapons, no buffs, no warframe abilities, and they take no effort to be the top damage dealer in the party 90 percent of the cases..

 

just to name the weapons of abuse: 

 

Atterax

orthos prime

and the king of them all!

.....Scoliac with a riven......

 

Edited March 13, 2018 by GenomexXx

[Vindicus8235]

8 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

You've done nothing to prove the potency of slide attackers, all you've done is play the contrarian. Nobody owes you anything. You're demanding some kind of proof of something that anyone who knows the game already knows to be a fact, and you're doing this because you know nobody here is going to do a bunch of game capture and take the time to upload it somewhere to prove something so utterly basic. You literally have no argument, and you're going around trying to impugn other people, it's pathetic. You're getting a bad reaction because you're engaging in tortured logic and sophistry.

Literally any frame with a strong damage amp and a crit Opticor can do what you're asking. Go show yourself. If you can't figure out how, well guess what, that ain't my problem, nor is it the game's problem. You can go on your merry way thinking that memers are the only viable playstyle, I'm just here to tell you you're wrong, and I don't support this stupid nerf herding mentality.

Fortunately it doesn't matter what you support.  DE is the final arbiter on decisions of game balance and there's an overwhelming amount of momentum behind a...retuning....of slide attack.  I hope it doesn't hit you too hard when the balance pass arrives, truly.  You seem like you could be a decent fella if you'd let go of some of that hostility!

It's interesting you've taken this thread as me getting a bad reaction because I've felt quite the opposite--all while using sound logic and observable evidence.  There's a lot of support here for bringing slide attack down out of the clouds in this thread alone not to mention the dozens of others; and a couple of vocal dissenters as there always are in matters of game breaking overpowered mechanics being stripped from them.  Only time, and actions taken by DE will reveal the truth of the matter.  I very much anticipate the likely changes to slide attack spam, as it's one of the most unhealthy (for the game) mechanics I've seen abused so ubiquitously in 25 years of online gaming.

[XaoGarrent]

1 minute ago, Vindicus8235 said:

Fortunately it doesn't matter what you support.  DE is the final arbiter on decisions of game balance and there's an overwhelming amount of momentum behind a...retuning....of slide attack.  I hope it doesn't hit you too hard when the balance pass arrives, truly.  You seem like you could be a decent fella if you'd let go of some of that hostility!

It's interesting you've taken this thread as me getting a bad reaction because I've felt quite the opposite--all while using sound logic and observable evidence.  There's a lot of support here for bringing slide attack down out of the clouds in this thread alone not to mention the dozens of others; and a couple of vocal dissenters as there always are in matters of game breaking overpowered mechanics being stripped from them.  Only time, and actions taken by DE will reveal the truth of the matter.  I very much anticipate the likely changes to slide attack spam, as it's one of the most unhealthy (for the game) mechanics I've seen abused so ubiquitously in 25 years of online gaming.

The last thing you are is logical. And if DE decides to cave into emotional whiners like yourself, that speaks pretty ill of them and their balance sheet will reflect that.

[(XBOX)Madinogi]

2 hours ago, sleepychewbacca said:

If it's a concern, everytime a thread like this pops up, just block the OP in game. Then the OP doesn't get matched with you, and won't need to worry about having all the fun and enjoyment taken away, and both parties get to play to their desires. Drastic, but until DE adds better matchmaking, I don't see any other simpler alternative. 

That being said, I do miss the days where it was accepted that pub missions were anything goes. There has been a lot more complaints since the playerbase expanded, and while change is good, well... too much change is never a good thing, especially when it's kneejerk. 

This as well. im on xbox. while hes on PC so i dont have to worry about being matchmade with him. otherwise id probably get yelled at how im "taking away all his fun" but i do have to worry about his kneejerk whining dictating how i play. ive all but given up on playing with banshee since her 4 made my focus farming less stressful. but now its changed all because people cant keep their traps shut on how others play. 

 

but ya. so many people nowadays are trying to dictate how other people play a game that its very unsettling. but its only 1 part of a global real world problem of authoritarian like people who are now on the rise thanks to a certain someone on the world stage. oh the simpler times of just being able to hop into a match and not having to worry about hearing the tiring screams of a nerf herder. 

[Midrib]

Disregarding anyone who disagrees with you with Ad hominem, and calling them "Whiners" "Moaners", is surely a great way to represent your argument on why a certain tactic shouldn't be nerfed.

God damn for people who call others "Whiners" you guys sure do love to whine.

[Vindicus8235]

6 minutes ago, (XB1)Madinogi said:

This as well. im on xbox. while hes on PC so i dont have to worry about being matchmade with him. otherwise id probably get yelled at how im "taking away all his fun" but i do have to worry about his kneejerk whining dictating how i play. ive all but given up on playing with banshee since her 4 made my focus farming less stressful. but now its changed all because people cant keep their traps shut on how others play. 

 

but ya. so many people nowadays are trying to dictate how other people play a game that its very unsettling. but its only 1 part of a global real world problem of authoritarian like people who are now on the rise thanks to a certain someone on the world stage. oh the simpler times of just being able to hop into a match and not having to worry about hearing the tiring screams of a nerf herder. 

You don't even realize the hypocrisy in this statement do you?  You understand that when you play as a slide attack spammer, you are quite literally dictating how 3 other people in the game get to play.  That is, they barely get to play at all.  Try to commiserate.

[MechaTails]

3 hours ago, Vindicus8235 said:

I'm not sure that increasing my block list from the 1 person that's currently on it up into the hundreds would be conducive to better gameplay, and even if it did work out that over time I'd never play with another slide attack spammer again, the core issue is still ignored. 

If DE added a weapon with a 500m radial insta-kill AoE I could also simply ignore anyone I encountered using that weapon, but the game would objectively be a worse game for having that, and ignore lists being the solution to avoiding encountering it.  Just to use an exaggerated version of what you're suggesting and why I'm not on board with that being any kind of a fix.

(Don't know who you're replying to)

The ignore list isn't a fix, it's a functional realistic temporary solution, more realistic than expecting the devs to do anything about it anyway.

(I have this frame of mind because this is the experience I've had from reporting bugs and being completely ignored.)

My ignore list is huge, and I absolutely run into less meme strikers/horrible human beings now than before. Yes, it's an ongoing process, and it's imperfect, but it works.