Warframes and Abilities to be Nerfed

[Checht]

I had a fruitful discussion on my thread regarding the lack of endgame difficulty recently.

One of the ideas is to introduce level 80-100 missions outside of Sortie 3. The general consensus in the thread regarding introducing such levels or hiking up the endgame difficulty is that players would deviate towards frames with overpowered abilities that can still cheese through such content, reducing frame diversity. This is a sign that some frame rebalancing (nerfing) needs to be done as a good game design should have well-balanced playable characters.

While I think that the priority for DE is to first introduce the level 80-100 endgame missions in order to collect warframe usage statistics and metrics to have objective evidence to buff/nerf frames, it could be an interesting topic to discuss first-hand in this thread. Listed below are some warframes and abilities that I think should be nerfed. Keep in mind that the frames included are frames that I have used enough to discuss with confidence. Those that are not included does not imply that they should not be nerfed. Without further ado, let me start with

 

Ash

Ash was my main frame when I first started playing as he looks like a badass ninja with sick abs. However, once I got used to using him, I realised how mindless it can be to play as Ash due to his abilities. This is one of the frames where I stopped playing as due to him being overpowered.

Smoke Screen

Problem: This is obvious and probably discussed many times before. Currently, there is no enemy that I am aware of that can effectively damage you once you go invisible. Enemies just attack in the general direction where they last heard your sound, and you are likely already out of the way. With Zenurik’s Energizing Dash, this is a low-cost ability and you can turn practically permanently invisible with repeated casting. This makes Ash an immortal frame with no challenge.

Nerf Suggestion: Reduce invisibility duration to slightly less than the time to revive a teammate and introduce a cooldown timer for this skill (much like abilities in MOBAs). In my opinion, 30 seconds would be an appropriate cooldown time for Ash. This would restrict this skill to mostly function as a means to get out of a sticky situation or staying undetected before launching an ambush on enemies up close. I believe this is what DE originally intended Smoke Screen to function, rather than being a permanently invisible frame that casually picks off enemies one-by-one.

Edit: Due to the unpopular response to cooldown, it seems that increasing energy consumption would be a better way to go. I'd still reduce the invis duration, and energy consumption can be tuned up to 100 energy.

(Fatal) Teleport + Covert Lethality

Problem: Makes Ash able to kill any enemy regardless of level. Paired with Smoke Screen and Fatal Teleport augment, you can get by most missions with just pressing 2 buttons – Smoke Screen -> Fatal Teleport.

Nerf Suggestion: Have Covert Lethality only work for Stealth Finishers.

Video evidence here

 

Volt

Volt is my favourite frame due to the versatility of his skillset. His ability to go melee reliably with Shocking Speed, function as a sniper with (Static) Electric Shield, go run and gun with (Current) Electric Shield, and some CC abilities with Shock and Discharge makes Volt an interesting frame to play for me. However, I find that this particular skill too easy to abuse to survive endgame content

Discharge

Problem: Discharge is a large AoE, long-duration stun. In addition, with the Capacitance augment mod, it regenerates your shield and provides overshield. Thus, you are basically free from threats for some time (easily ~8 seconds with a duration mod) after casting this skill. With maxed Energizing Dash, it grants you 150 energy in 30 seconds. With Streamline equipped, you can cast 2 Discharges within the period of 30 seconds and still have surplus energy, and that is assuming you do not get energy orbs from dead enemies. This makes it easy to survive endgame content just by spamming Discharge, and overshadows interesting playstyles that the other 3 skills provide.

Nerf Suggestion: Introduce a cooldown time for Discharge of 30 seconds. It fits with this skill anyway, as you are supposed to need some time to restore your charge after “discharging”. This would require players to use Discharge smartly, to judge when to use it for maximum advantage, rather than just spamming it. If DE wants to be fancy they can introduce a “Discharged” debuff of 30 seconds after casting Discharge, which would only function to lock the Discharge skill (much like Phoenix Renewal).

Edit: Due to the unpopular opinion on cooldown (again), it seems that the better way is to increase energy consumption. However, this ability already consumes 100 energy, which is the base energy cap of some frames. A way to do it might be to cost 100 energy on initial cast, then drain maybe 50 energy for X amount of seconds after cast. This way, you still can cast with 100 energy left. You will only be affected when you have energy surplus.

Gameplay video here

 

Excalibur

I might be stepping over my boundary here as Excalibur is my least used frame out of the 3 presented here. However, I still find this skill to be obviously overpowered and can be spammed to easily get through endgame content

Radial Blind

Problem: From the description, Radial Blind is supposed to “blind all enemies in a small radius” and “for several seconds”. However, by “small radius” it is a range of 25 m, longer than most AoE skills, and by “several seconds” it is 15 seconds, which is even longer than Volt’s Discharge. With Energizing Dash, it is again a low-cost ability that can be spammed to immobilize enemies indefinitely.

 Nerf Suggestion: Make it fit with the description of the ability. Instead of 25 m, make it 8 m. Instead of 15 s, make it 6s. With this nerf, ranged units can still pose a threat to Excalibur. However, the survivability of Excalibur may take a great hit and maybe some buff to his health can be granted.

Edit: Many responses are that the AoE will be too small. However, many do not realize that compared to Petrify (which is also an AoE stun which requires line of sight), the AoE of Radial Blind is 19 times the AoE of Petrify (or Petrify's AoE is only 5.23% the AoE of Radial Blind). Petrify costs more too, at 75 energy compared to Radial Blind's 50. The only thing Petrify is better at is the extra 5 seconds stun, which is irrelevant since enemies would likely have died within the 15 second duration of Radial Blind anyway.

Plus, after nerf, the AoE of nerfed Radial Blind is still about twice the AoE of Petrify. See the figure below. In addition, the smaller AoE Radial Blind would synergize well with Slash Dash. To confront a group of enemies, Excalibur can utilize the invincibility of Slash Dash to close in on the group. Once he is in the cluster, it is the optimum time to cast the nerfed Radial Blind. The effectiveness in terms of AoE wouldn't be lesser than Petrify. The current state of Radial Blind overshadows Slash Dash entirely, which many has regarded it as only a mobility skill and not much help in terms of combat. Why Slash Dash when you can already mass stun from far away?

Video evidence here

 

This concludes that list of frames and abilities that I feel qualified enough to comment on in this thread. For you to understand my perspective, I think Oberon is the perfectly balanced frame at the moment. He is level-80-100-viable, great abilities that synergizes well with team, and no spam-able skills that totally remove threats. I hope DE will balance frames with Oberon set as the standard.

You might also realize that most skills presented above are spammable due to the current energy economy provided by Energizing Dash. One might argue that nerfing energy regen will mitigate this problem. However, I foresee the outcome upon nerfing energy regen to be undesirable. Players will just save up energy for the OP skills, and the non-OP skills (e.g. Volt’s first 3 skills) will just be overshadowed again. Thus, let’s keep the discussion in this thread in terms of nerfing the skills. I think adding cooldown timer to be a good way to prevent spamming of OP skills.

Again, the list is not complete, as I feel that I am unqualified to comment on frames that may be OP but did not use extensively (I usually stop using such frames once I realize their abilities can be abused e.g. Wukong, Loki). Thus, I welcome everyone to contribute to the thread and update on the list. The context is that if endgame content with sufficient difficulty is introduced (e.g. level 80-100 missions other than Sortie 3), what frames will be over-represented, what abilities will be spammed for easy survivability? Give your reasons and nerf suggestions. Fire away!

 

Edit:

1. Posted gameplay videos to better illustrate my points.

2. Highlighted important statements for lazy readers.

 

Edit 2:

From the discussions in this thread so far, it seems that I need to do better to get my point across before being bogged down by red herrings. So, please read these guiding questions before posting.

1. Do you have any abilities that you can spam to survive level 150+ or 200+ content?

If yes, go on to the next question. If not, good for you, you must be very skilled to be able to survive at such content without resorting to spamming those skills, and I can't prove otherwise. There's no need to go on.

2. Do you think those abilities should be nerfed, so that level 80-100 is the appropriate endgame challenge?

If yes, post your nerf suggetions. If no, we just fundamentally disagree, we can start another thread in the "General" section to discuss this. But first, let me just give a few reasons why I think they should be nerfed.

i) If spamming those skills is the optimal "strategy" to survive level 150+, it is the optimal "strategy" to survive low level too to begin with. You just do not do so before you reach level 150+ because it is not fun. I want the optimal strategy and tactics in Warframe to be fun and engaging.

ii) Difficulty at level 150+ comes purely from enemies being able to oneshot you with any stray bullets, which many players complain about. Enemy damage is required to scale up to this extent for any challenge precisely due to spammable hard CC/invisibility/invincibility skills. Imagine any PVE horde action games (Left 4 Dead, Borderlands, or even Dynasty Warriors) and give your character permanent invisibility or the ability to cast radial blind (or any hard CC in general) every 5 seconds. Where would difficulty come from in this case?

iii) Balance between frames and abilities. If we were to buff other frames and abilities instead, see issues i) and ii).

Extra question: Can you read enlarged, bolded texts?

If yes, please read the enlarged, bolded texts in the original post. If not, please see an optometrist.

Edited April 23, 2018 by Checht
1. Adding video and highlight statement. 2. Adding guiding questions.

[xXHobbitXx]

Sortie never has been endgame, any frame with any forma'd weapon as long as you using right setup for right faction can do any level sortie with ease, what is needed is higher level content starting at level 150-200 for the more experienced players, 80-100 is just childs play once you have played a while, they have more then enough information from current sorties to determine waframe usage statistics, and promoting nerfs just makes players upset , cause when DE approach something to "fix" they tend to break it more then fix it

Any frame can do any level content, its just a matter of adapting playstyle and weaponry to suit, but lots will always opt for the meta(meta means most used), you cant control how others play just yourself, i myself like to use a variety of weapons and frames as often as i can(outside of eidolons), to make gameplay less stagnant

Edited March 22, 2018 by xXHobbitXx

[shut]

How DARE frames be able to survive at high levels.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

So, you want to nerf CC and Single-Target Kill abilities in a game that has Ember, Banshee, and Equinox?

Also, Ash's Bladestorm costs half energy while invisible, providing synergy with Smoke Screen. Removing the ability to do that would cause him to cost far more energy and be far more vulnerable. He just doesn't have the energy pool or the health/armor to be able to work under those conditions. Besides, he's a ninja. Ninja's are supposed to be shadowy, unseen assassins, not some random guy throwing throwing stars and the occasional smoke bomb. Removing his ability to remain unseen would remove his ninja theme.

Lastly, ability cooldowns/timers do not mesh with the feel and flow of Warframe. This is a game where everything is at your fingertips if you know how to use it. Putting timers on these abilities would just make them clunky and make players stop playing them. For instance, why use a Smoke Screen + Fatal Teleport Ash with cooldowns/no Covert Lethality when you could use Ivara with Prowl and Sleep Arrows with Covert Lethality and no cooldowns? Any application of cooldowns will simply drive players to a frame that can do the same thing without the cooldown.

 

[Aechmea]

19 minutes ago, Checht said:

I might be stepping over my boundary here as Excalibur is the least used frame out of the 3 presented here. However, I still find this skill to be obviously overpowered and can be spammed to easily get through endgame content

did you know? radial blind has 5 seconds Cooldown...

[KirukaChan]

Powers were spammable before Zenurik even existed. Energy pizzas and Fleeting Expertise are the main enablers of that.

Also, Covert Lethality doesn't need a nerf until something is done about ridiculous enemy armor scaling.

[LSG501]

13 minutes ago, Checht said:

Ash

Smoke Screen

Nerf Suggestion: Reduce invisibility duration to slightly less than the time to revive a teammate and introduce a cooldown timer for this skill (much like abilities in MOBAs). In my opinion, 30 seconds would be an appropriate cooldown time for Ash. This would restrict this skill to mostly function as a means to get out of a sticky situation or staying undetected before launching an ambush on enemies up close. I believe this is what DE originally intended Smoke Screen to function, rather than being a permanently invisible frame that casually picks off enemies one-by-one.

 

(Fatal) Teleport + Covert Lethality

Nerf Suggestion: Have Covert Lethality only work for Stealth Finishers.

As with the other frames you mentioned ash doesn't need nerfing... if you don't like the way covert lethality synergises with fatal teleport (which is actually quite buggy) then just don't use covert lethality...

13 minutes ago, Checht said:

Volt

Discharge

 

Nerf Suggestion: Introduce a cooldown time for Discharge of 30 seconds. It fits with this skill anyway, as you are supposed to need some time to restore your charge after “discharging”. This would require players to use Discharge smartly, to judge when to use it for maximum advantage, rather than just spamming it. If DE wants to be fancy they can introduce a “Discharged” debuff of 30 seconds after casting Discharge, which would only function to lock the Discharge skill (much like Phoenix Renewal).

You do realise that volt just had his discharge changed and in that change was some nerfs, not to mention some of us actually feel it's worse now than it was before the recent rework....

Also if you don't like the low cost, increase the cost of your abilities by using blind rage so your efficiency is lower, in fact everything you've mentioned in this 'nerf' thread can be fixed by building your frames to suit YOUR requirements. 

And cool downs are not a solution for the game, it's bad enough on harrow, if you start forcing cool downs into the game you're in essence turning it into a generic 'gun and run' type game.

 

13 minutes ago, Checht said:

Excalibur

 

Radial Blind

 

Problem: From the description, Radial Blind is supposed to “blind all enemies in a small radius” and “for several seconds”. However, by “small radius” it is a range of 25 m, longer than most AoE skills, and by “several seconds” it is 15 seconds, which is even longer than Volt’s Discharge. With Energizing Dash, it is again a low-cost ability that can be spammed to immobilize enemies indefinitely.

 

 Nerf Suggestion: Make it fit with the description of the ability. Instead of 25 m, make it 8 m. Instead of 15 s, make it 6s. With this nerf, ranged units can still pose a threat to Excalibur. However, the survivability of Excalibur may take a great hit and maybe some buff to his health can be granted.

 

25m IS a small radius... 8m is stupidly small when you're being shot at from more than 25m away, hell at 8m you'll have enemies still coming at you with melee...

 

And I'll be blunt, I hate your ideas, they're nerfs which aren't needed in any way shape or form.

 

[Checht]

1 minute ago, Crimson-Tenno said:

did you know? radial blind has 5 seconds Cooldown...

Yes, but 5 seconds cooldown for a 15 seconds stun is trivial, isn't it. I did not say that DE should add a cooldown timer for this skill, I am already aware of this.

[DrBorris]

Of all things you suggest to nerf you pick Ash, Volt, and Excalibro?

 

I am not really sure what to say, you just so happened to pick three of the more balanced Warframes. Like, you can make an argument for Octavia or maybe Equinox being OP, but even then it is a debate.

And I am not one to shy away from nerfs, but the things you picked are just... not OP.

[Checht]

To prevent this thread from going off topic. Let me clarify. The frames that I discussed here are in no means the frames that are most OP currently. They are the frames that I have used enough to discuss. To those saying "why are you considering nerfing these frames before XXX frames?", go ahead and include why those frames should be nerfed. I started this thread for this kind of discussion.

[CuChulainnWD]

Sounds to me like you need to go back to Destiny.

[tCartmant]

28 minutes ago, Checht said:

To prevent this thread from going off topic. Let me clarify. The frames that I discussed here are in no means the frames that are most OP currently. They are the frames that I have used enough to discuss. To those saying "why are you considering nerfing these frames before XXX frames?", go ahead and include why those frames should be nerfed. I started this thread for this kind of discussion.

OMFG, if you think the above frames are OP, please just Stop playing. Delete warframe. You really dont want to see most of the other frames in this game.

[TKDancer]

 

you do realize it got a stealth nerf of half base duration, plus the half duration on distant enemies(so distant enemies get 1/4 of the old duration)... right?

 

discharge is in an awful place right now cause of that, and a squishy frame simply needs the CC it provides(or should provide i guess), hell we dont even get dmg resistance during its long cast animation

[Vanillu]

Excalibur is the least used frame out of the 3 presented here

u w0t m8

[DrBorris]

8 minutes ago, tCartmant said:

OMFG, if you think the above frames are OP, please just Stop playing. Delete warframe. You really dont want to see most of the other frames in this game.

Now this is just not useful...

 

 

OP, I think you are missing a big part of the picture here especially with Ash. Warframe is a game about killing a lot of enemies very quickly, yes there is balance to that and some things can kill too quickly and should be nerfed, but they have to be judged in the context of gameplay.

So, in the context of gameplay, is what Ash does really disrupt the balance of how you play? Is Ash being able to one-shot any enemy really make him that powerful for the purpose of the game? Just because the thought of one-shotting any enemy seems crazy, in practice it is actually rather lackluster. The game is not balanced around levels where the only way to kill is with CL and giving Ash the ability to single out and (slowly) kill high priority targets consistently is a boon to his role yet does not disrupt how the game plays out.

Another example of this is Tigris Prime and Sniper Rifles (Vectis Prime and Lanka mostly). Both of these weapons can one-shot nearly anything you throw at them, but does that make them OP? No, it does not. In the context of gameplay they do what they need to do. If Lanka or Vectis did not one-shot, they would be useless. Same for Tigris. However, when something comes along like Tonkor or S. Simulor that do massively alter the gameplay (mostly by dumbing it down to a clicker game) there is a problem.

 

Then for Volt. Honestly, I think you are playing at far too low of level. Even in Sorties Volt the shields of Capacitance quickly fall off. They act as protection from a quick burst of damage but that's it, any sustained fire and Volt is dead very fast. On the damage front, it is intended to be a DPS ability and is heavily dependent on enemies grouping up. You can't just spam discharge and expect to win, it is only effective at damage in certain situations. Lastly the CC it provides, I think you may be new to Warframe. Warframes are very (very) squishy in late game content. Without some absurd EHP pool frames go down in an instant to nearly any enemy. This is why CC plays such a large role and the entire game has evolved around this. New Warframes are implemented with powerful CC by DE, they know what they are making now. "Overpowered" necessitates that it is not an intended gameplay design and this is just not the case for most CC.

 

 

And it is funny you bring up Oberon as "balanced" in comparison to these frames. Oberon can tank better than any volt could ever dream, in a coordinated team (or even uncoordinated for that matter) he can make everyone nearly immortal in even Sortie content.

(Also, if anything, we don't have enough accessible energy without the use of Energizing Dash or pizzas)

[GeoffFromAccounting]

Normally I stop to read every nerf thread to see if they have a valid argument and if said item actually needs to be nerfed (because contrary to popular belief, nerfs are actually just as healthy as buffs when used correctly), but I don't agree with any of this.

You managed to pick on the three frames that are, in my opinion, either more balanced than others or in need of buffs. I also find it hilarious that you mention Ash but not Loki, who's arguably just as if not more powerful. Not only that, but the suggestions you have for "fixing" these "issues" are attrocious. 30 second cooldown for an ability that only lasts a couple seconds under your proposal? That's just ludicrous even by MOBA standards (which may I remind you: Warframe is not a MOBA). It's even worse considering that Discharge already got nerfed recently and is considered by many to still be unviable for high level content (With my high duration build Discharge lasts a maximum of 12 seconds, and that's if I don't die before finishing the cast). If any Discharge needs buffs, not to toss on a 30 second cooldown which goes fundamentally against Warframe's design.

And I haven't even gotten up to Excalibur yet! That was just covering Ash and Volt! Do you have any idea how large a 25m range actually is? I'll give you a hint, it's not a lot, and the fact you're making it even smaller to the point of 8m shows that you have no idea what you're talking about. 8m is barely extending past melee range, and is almost guaranteed to make it that blind only affects two or three enemies. As if that wasn't bad enough however, 6 second duration!? Do you have any idea how long finisher animations take in this game? With those two nerfs combined, you could only reasonably use the benefit of it on one enemy every five seconds. For 50 energy.

Stop. Just, stop. All of this just makes it seem like you have no idea what you're talking about. Either that, or you want Warframe to be a game it is not. If the first is true, then play the game some more, learn how everything works together, then come back and talk about this topic. If it's the latter, play a different game. I'd recommend either Vermintide 2 or Borderlands 2, maybe even DOOM 2016.

[PrincessMittens]

1 hour ago, Checht said:

Volt

 

Volt is my favourite frame due to the versatility of his skillset. His ability to go melee reliably with Shocking Speed, function as a sniper with (Static) Electric Shield, go run and gun with (Current) Electric Shield, and some CC abilities with Shock and Discharge makes Volt an interesting frame to play for me. However, I find that this particular skill too easy to abuse to survive endgame content

 

Discharge

 

Problem: Discharge is a large AoE, long-duration stun. In addition, with the Capacitance augment mod, it regenerates your shield and provides overshield. Thus, you are basically free from threats for some time (easily ~8 seconds with a duration mod) after casting this skill. With maxed Energizing Dash, it grants you 150 energy in 30 seconds. With Streamline equipped, you can cast 2 Discharges within the period of 30 seconds and still have surplus energy, and that is assuming you do not get energy orbs from dead enemies. This makes it easy to survive endgame content just by spamming Discharge, and overshadows interesting playstyles that the other 3 skills provide.

 

Nerf Suggestion: Introduce a cooldown time for Discharge of 30 seconds. It fits with this skill anyway, as you are supposed to need some time to restore your charge after “discharging”. This would require players to use Discharge smartly, to judge when to use it for maximum advantage, rather than just spamming it. If DE wants to be fancy they can introduce a “Discharged” debuff of 30 seconds after casting Discharge, which would only function to lock the Discharge skill (much like Phoenix Renewal).

No. 

Just no. You say Volt is your favorite frame, but then you suggest nerfs to him. As someone who also loves Volt, I'm gonna break this down and tell you why this is bad. 

First of all, your argument is basically "How DARE he get shields from an OPTIONAL augment and try to survive end game!" All frames need the power to survive end game content, so the sheer fact you're suggesting this get removed on him is asinine. I cannot in any mind see why you think it's okay to take away a frame's ability to live in end game content. 

Second, you are suggesting a cool down for Discharge, this is also hilariously wrong. First of all, it's already been STEALTH NERFED (the OG duration was 8 seconds, now it's 4, which is unacceptable as is and ruins his CC). Second, the damage doesn't even scale and is flat, making it actually useless for enemies with armor and high EHP. The logic of "it makes sense, you need time to recharge" is also wrong because this is a video game. Real logic does not apply to video games, especially games about flying Void-powered space ninjas. 

When it comes to the Phoenix Renewal comparison... you ever consider that has a cool down because it literally saves you from dying instantly? Savior Decoy for Loki has the same type of system, where if you get hit and it "kills" you, you get revived with a cool down on the ability. Volt's Discharge isn't even significant enough to warrant a cool down reduction, in fact it needs to get buffed! Volt's 4 needs scaling damage, duration-based range, it's original duration of 8 seconds back, and the halved duration at X meters taken out. 

 Volt as he is right now is an undead warframe. All he has in the meta is fishing and babysitting kids for Eidolons. He's begging for a spot in the meta and to be recognized, so nerfing him would go against that completely. If anything you should be advocating for the buffs I suggested so Volt is actually a great, functional frame to play. As he is right now, so many frames go faster, survive better, have better damage buffs, and better 1 casts. So I urge you to please reconsider your opinions. 

[frizipop]

OP, you are suggesting an overhaul to the game's power level entirely, that is not something easily brought about nor something that would go over well with the entire community of Warframe. This is not a game about deep complex combat mechanics, it is a game about murdering the hordes of mindless grunts that come running at you. and I am sure that is what most people play it for. I know I myself do.

What makes this even more laughable is that you picked 2 very balanced frames to pick on and then 1 very underpowered frame. You complain about Ash's Smoke Screen when Loki's Invisibility does the exact same thing but lasts 50% longer. Killing one enemy instantly doesn't matte all that much when there are 50 more to take it's place. Volt's 4 was just significantly nerfed, and there are abilities that both CC better and do an exponential amount more damage than it. Excalibur's 2 is a key part of his kit and his synergy between it and exalted blade is what makes him one of the highest single target dps frames. The issue appears when you realize this is not about fighting single enemies, it is about fighting hordes.

You are trying to balance Warframe around what you have experienced in other games, not what fits within Warframe itself.

If you are looking for a difficult experience I really suggest just looking for a different game.

(Edit) Also, if any of these warframes are underused, it would be Ash, not the most popular starter frame.

 

Edited March 22, 2018 by frizipop

[Checht]

Again, just because I presented those 3 does not mean they are the ones that should be prioritized to be nerfed. They are just the ones that I have played frequently enough to comment on regarding nerfing, as highlighted in bold in the original post.

1 hour ago, Checht said:

Keep in mind that the frames included are frames that I have used enough to discuss with confidence. Those that are not included does not imply that they should not be nerfed.

I am inviting you to post any other frames that you've used with enough experience that should be nerfed. I know that Wukong, Loki etc. are also OP, but I've never used them long enough to comment much on them (because they are OP), as highlighted in the original post.

1 hour ago, Checht said:

Again, the list is not complete, as I feel that I am unqualified to comment on frames that may be OP but did not use extensively (I usually stop using such frames once I realize their abilities can be abused e.g. Wukong, Loki).

The aim of this thread is to bring up in the context where level 80-100 missions are introduced outside of Sortie 3, what warframes will be over-represented in such missions, what skills will be spammed, and I am inviting you guys to discuss them.

 

22 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

Then for Volt. Honestly, I think you are playing at far too low of level. Even in Sorties Volt the shields of Capacitance quickly fall off. They act as protection from a quick burst of damage but that's it, any sustained fire and Volt is dead very fast. On the damage front, it is intended to be a DPS ability and is heavily dependent on enemies grouping up. You can't just spam discharge and expect to win, it is only effective at damage in certain situations. Lastly the CC it provides, I think you may be new to Warframe. Warframes are very (very) squishy in late game content. Without some absurd EHP pool frames go down in an instant to nearly any enemy. This is why CC plays such a large role and the entire game has evolved around this. New Warframes are implemented with powerful CC by DE, they know what they are making now. "Overpowered" necessitates that it is not an intended gameplay design and this is just not the case for most CC.

 

17 minutes ago, -Mittens- said:

Just no. You say Volt is your favorite frame, but then you suggest nerfs to him. As someone who also loves Volt, I'm gonna break this down and tell you why this is bad. 

First of all, your argument is basically "How DARE he get shields from an OPTIONAL augment and try to survive end game!" All frames need the power to survive end game content, so the sheer fact you're suggesting this get removed on him is asinine. I cannot in any mind see why you think it's okay to take away a frame's ability to live in end game content. 

Second, you are suggesting a cool down for Discharge, this is also hilariously wrong. First of all, it's already been STEALTH NERFED (the OG duration was 8 seconds, now it's 4, which is unacceptable as is and ruins his CC). Second, the damage doesn't even scale and is flat, making it actually useless for enemies with armor and high EHP. The logic of "it makes sense, you need time to recharge" is also wrong because this is a video game. Real logic does not apply to video games, especially games about flying Void-powered space ninjas. 

When it comes to the Phoenix Renewal comparison... you ever consider that has a cool down because it literally saves you from dying instantly? Savior Decoy for Loki has the same type of system, where if you get hit and it "kills" you, you get revived with a cool down on the ability. Volt's Discharge isn't even significant enough to warrant a cool down reduction, in fact it needs to get buffed! Volt's 4 needs scaling damage, duration-based range, it's original duration of 8 seconds back, and the halved duration at X meters taken out. 

 Volt as he is right now is an undead warframe. All he has in the meta is fishing and babysitting kids for Eidolons. He's begging for a spot in the meta and to be recognized, so nerfing him would go against that completely. If anything you should be advocating for the buffs I suggested so Volt is actually a great, functional frame to play. As he is right now, so many frames go faster, survive better, have better damage buffs, and better 1 casts. So I urge you to please reconsider your opinions. 

I don't think Volt is in the fishing and Eidolon meta only. Yes, I am aware of the Discharge CC nerf (6 s by the way) and I am happy with it (I have clocked 706 hours in Warframe with 46.8% Volt Prime usage). I bring Volt for Sortie 3 and 60 minutes Survival regularly and he is still doing well despite the nerf. I just find that Discharge is still a convenient easy-way-out with the current energy economy, and overshadows his other 3 abilities. Yes, it is not strictly an OP skill (which is why Volt is my favourite), but I find that players still can brainlessly spam this skill with the current energy economy to survive in the context of level 80-100 missions. I like Capacitance, it gives good survivability to Volt, I just don't like the way it is spam-able. To clarify again, I am well aware that Volt is not an OP frame, I've even argued that it is one of the more balanced frame in my thread on "Lack of endgame difficulty", I just think a slight nerf to "spammability" of Discharge is good.

 

41 minutes ago, Vanillu said:

Excalibur is the least used frame out of the 3 presented here

Lol, I worded it poorly. What I meant was it is my least used out of the 3 that I have presented, which is why I said I might be stepping out of my boundaries to discuss this.

 

1 hour ago, LSG501 said:

25m IS a small radius... 8m is stupidly small when you're being shot at from more than 25m away, hell at 8m you'll have enemies still coming at you with melee...

 

39 minutes ago, GeoffFromAccounting said:

And I haven't even gotten up to Excalibur yet! That was just covering Ash and Volt! Do you have any idea how large a 25m range actually is? I'll give you a hint, it's not a lot, and the fact you're making it even smaller to the point of 8m shows that you have no idea what you're talking about. 8m is barely extending past melee range, and is almost guaranteed to make it that blind only affects two or three enemies. As if that wasn't bad enough however, 6 second duration!? Do you have any idea how long finisher animations take in this game? With those two nerfs combined, you could only reasonably use the benefit of it on one enemy every five seconds. For 50 energy.

Hallowed Ground has a 15 m range, Discharge has a 20 m range, Sound Quake has a 20 m range, Miasma has a 15 m range, Rhino's stomp has a 25 m range. I could go on listing many more radial AoE skills that have less than or just equal to Radial Blind's range. Please elaborate more on why 25 m is not a lot (especially without any range mod equipped yet), and especially on a melee-centred frame. 50 energy is not a lot, it is spam-able with the current energy economy.

48 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

So, in the context of gameplay, is what Ash does really disrupt the balance of how you play? Is Ash being able to one-shot any enemy really make him that powerful for the purpose of the game? Just because the thought of one-shotting any enemy seems crazy, in practice it is actually rather lackluster. The game is not balanced around levels where the only way to kill is with CL and giving Ash the ability to single out and (slowly) kill high priority targets consistently is a boon to his role yet does not disrupt how the game plays out.

Yes, but this reduces playing as Ash to "can I kill fast enough?" (still fast enough with Bladestorm actually or just appropriate weapon choice) and not "can I survive this mission?", thanks to his permanent invisibility, which I find unsatisfying.

 

[(PSN)H3art_Th13f]

or

 

now sit down for this bold suggestion

 

ready?

 

buff other frames.

[frizipop]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)H3art_Th13f said:

or

 

now sit down for this bold suggestion

 

ready?

 

buff other frames.

You misunderstand, OP wants EVERY frame to be nerfed

[Andaius]

3 minutes ago, frizipop said:

You misunderstand, OP wants EVERY frame to be nerfed

This^

 

[VoxGray]

I agree with the premise, but not the execution. The power creep in Warframe has gone too far, and needs to be reigned in if we ever want to have a challenge again. Unfortunately, as you can see from the responses in this thread so far, most Tenno aren't too keen on the idea of giving up even a fraction of that power...it won't be a fight won easily.

[Andaius]

7 minutes ago, EmissaryOfInfinity said:

I agree with the premise, but not the execution. The power creep in Warframe has gone too far, and needs to be reigned in if we ever want to have a challenge again. Unfortunately, as you can see from the responses in this thread so far, most Tenno aren't too keen on the idea of giving up even a fraction of that power...it won't be a fight won easily.

The Easy way to fix this is to find and nail down what they want as the "official" max enemy level to balance around. Since it seems to be 100 right now with "end game" sorties being capped out with 100 level enemy. Tha tway they can then adjust and tweak all the abilities and weapon damage number to effect this "end game enemy model" at the "proper" levels of effect they wish. Right now it seems they don't have this and weapon and ability damages seem to only increase the newer they go and damn the place they fall in with current weapons and abilities.

[LSG501]

4 hours ago, EmissaryOfInfinity said:

I agree with the premise, but not the execution. The power creep in Warframe has gone too far, and needs to be reigned in if we ever want to have a challenge again. Unfortunately, as you can see from the responses in this thread so far, most Tenno aren't too keen on the idea of giving up even a fraction of that power...it won't be a fight won easily.

Have you considered that some of us don't want things nerfing because of past execution of nerfs by DE.... they're not exactly good at 'reworking' things are they, and when they do clearly screw up their 'rework' most of the time they just ignore the problem until we finally push home how badly they screwed up.