Can we get some update on the chat moderation?

[[DE]Grzegorz]

1 minute ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Now that shouldnt happen at all, its private chat for a reason. If i have problem with someone who is rude to me i put them on ignore.

...why would anyone @ their friend in a private message? It could be that @DarkStryder mentioned their friend in Region or alike, but I'd like to see a clarification.

[Fallen_Echo]

10 minutes ago, JuicyButthurt said:

...why would anyone @ their friend in a private message? It could be that @DarkStryder mentioned their friend in Region or alike, but I'd like to see a clarification.

Valid point, but knowing how buggy and messy our systems can be i wouldnt be suprised if all pms would go throught region hidden and now they are scanned by the bot.

[(PSN)GbHaseo]

20 hours ago, krc473 said:

Why do you even need to tell people in the public chats that? Who in the game cares? The issue is that more people use it in a derogatory manner, than in an "I am X" manner. So no one gets to discuss it. Personally, I do not agree with that stance. But as players, we have no control over it. You can discuss it in any non-public chat.

 

20 hours ago, Ferah_Frithu said:

I have to agree here. This isn't a dating app/website, and your sexuality just doesn't belong here. Discuss that in DMs/PMs, and not a public game chat. I'll have to admit, the list of banned words is questionable at times, but in almost all cases, the suspensions were correct. Many people have used those terms in a derogatory manner, especially words like "gay" and "trap". Most of them have claimed that they were "just joking", though I can't see the humor in saying "ur mum gay" in a game chat, unless you're on of those self-proclaimed "edgelords".

Have neither of you went on region/global chats and just socially chatted? Me and some fellow Design Council members use our chat to strike up some very interesting conversations occassionally on late nights and if someone feels comfortable enough to express theyre gay in our convo, that's fine with me. 

Ppl use chat to talk politics, life, anime, whatever. This is a game with social networking, people can meet and date there. I met my wife on GTA 5. As long as it's in region/relay and not trading/recruiting.

[Ferah_Frithu]

2 hours ago, (PS4)GbHaseo said:

Have neither of you went on region/global chats and just socially chatted?

No, that's what I use Discord and PMs for.

2 hours ago, (PS4)GbHaseo said:

if someone feels comfortable enough to express theyre gay in our convo, that's fine with me. 

Again, why would you feel the need to say that in a game chat? Or to put it more simply: Who cares? Ideally, nothing would change between you and the person after it was said, but we're talking about region chat here. You're basically begging for trolls to go down on you, and everyone knows today's "internet culture" well enough to be able to tell, that it's a bad idea to even remotely hint at anything related to sexuality. That brings us full circle: Who really cares about your sexuality in a game? 

2 hours ago, (PS4)GbHaseo said:

Ppl use chat to talk politics, life, anime, whatever.

If you look for the ~5 threads (daily) about getting banned for uttering childish insults, you should realize that the list of banned words is not as bad as most people make it out to be. Let's be real here, in which scenario is saying "ur mum gay"/"are traps gay" a reasonable part of a conversation held in a game chat? Most of the time it's a stupid exclamation made by one of these "edgelords" who'd do and say anything to be "funny". There is nothing to be gained from that, and apparently a lot of people don't like it, including the staff at DE, hence those words being on the black list.

2 hours ago, (PS4)GbHaseo said:

This is a game with social networking, people can meet and date there. I met my wife on GTA 5. As long as it's in region/relay and not trading/recruiting.

"Social networking"? Come on now, the game has a simple chat. Literally every online game has it. Also, why do you feel the need to tell me that you met your wife in GTA5? To make a point? It's a moot point, really, because we're discussing how and why banned words are banned. There is no problem with meeting people in-game, obviously, but discussing ones sexuality/sexual preferences is just not a part of the game at all. If you really feel the need to go sexual, do it in DMs/PMs - Why risk getting banned/attacked by trolls, knowing that it most likely will happen?

Think about it. Those rules are in place for a reason. The Warframe community is praised among others as one of the least toxic. Do you think it would still be like that, if people could go rampant with what they say? I truly doubt that.

Edited April 12, 2018 by Ferah_Frithu

[DeMonkey]

28 minutes ago, Ferah_Frithu said:

Also, why do you feel the need to tell me that you met your wife in GTA5? To make a point? It's a moot point, really, because we're discussing how and why banned words are banned.

These were my thoughts.

I met my partner on these forums. Were we having a public discussion about our sexuality? No. Were we throwing about vulgar language? No. It's completely irrelevant.

[rune_me]

It shouldn't be a surprise that a chat server run by a big company that does international business has a pretty strict policy when it comes to what can and can't be said.

You don't need a list of words, you just need to apply some common sense before you post anything. Not getting banned from region chat is not hard. 10's of thousands of players succeeds at it every day, so you probably can as well.

[SquareZero89]

I know right

[SneakyErvin]

I'm not the civil kinda person when it comes to chats or real life convos, I have however never been banned or suspended anywhere. I wonder what kind of biggotry people are actually throwing around in order to get banned/suspended.

And do people really need to bring up there sexual preferences in an online chat? I mean, how insecure are you at that point if you need to flash it when you get a chance. I dont tell people what I like and would never intend to either. It isnt a shocker you get banned for such things because some people simply prefer to not know or discuss it. It is a region chat afterall, not exactly a/s/l msn territory. If you like discussing personal preferences do it in tells with people you know, randoms likely dont wanna hear it.

[(PSN)GbHaseo]

6 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

These were my thoughts.

I met my partner on these forums. Were we having a public discussion about our sexuality? No. Were we throwing about vulgar language? No. It's completely irrelevant.

I meant in terms bc ppl do talk about this stuff on public chats. Ppl flirt in chat, revealing youre gay is no different than revealing youre male or female to me. Why can't people discuss their sexual identities on chat? There's nothing wrong with polite conversation. Some people are just more open about their lives. 

The above poster acts like chat should be restricted for game discussions only. I hate PMs, I like publicly discussing deep issues on chat in game occassionaly. 

[Orgoon]

21 hours ago, peterc3 said:

If you want to actually discuss the issue, I would hope you are not going to use Urban Dictionary as the basis for your argument. Holds about as much weight as citing Wikipedia in a school paper.

And if there aren't enough mods on at a given time?

How does being able to have insults and slurs up for longer before a ban make sense?

Wikipedia is as accurate as Encyclopedia Britannica. Unless you want to say that Nature holds no value as well.

[(XBOX)SmokeSkele]

13 hours ago, (XB1)Mr Calverley said:

Host migration is the biggest troll of all...

Connection to the host has been lost, you will be logged out into the main multiplayer menu.

[DeMonkey]

21 minutes ago, (PS4)GbHaseo said:

I meant in terms bc ppl do talk about this stuff on public chats.

Clearly DE do not want you discussing that sort of thing in their public chat.

22 minutes ago, (PS4)GbHaseo said:

There's nothing wrong with polite conversation.

Correct. There's also nothing wrong with not discussing your sexuality in the public chat of a flipping video game.

DE have laws they must follow that prohibit hate speech. Deal with the fact that there are trigger words and attempt to have a polite conversation without using them. I'm sure it's possible.

[(PSN)GbHaseo]

7 hours ago, Ferah_Frithu said:

No, that's what I use Discord and PMs for.

Again, why would you feel the need to say that in a game chat? Or to put it more simply: Who cares? Ideally, nothing would change between you and the person after it was said, but we're talking about region chat here. You're basically begging for trolls to go down on you, and everyone knows today's "internet culture" well enough to be able to tell, that it's a bad idea to even remotely hint at anything related to sexuality. That brings us full circle: Who really cares about your sexuality in a game? 

If you look for the ~5 threads (daily) about getting banned for uttering childish insults, you should realize that the list of banned words is not as bad as most people make it out to be. Let's be real here, in which scenario is saying "ur mum gay"/"are traps gay" a reasonable part of a conversation held in a game chat? Most of the time it's a stupid exclamation made by one of these "edgelords" who'd do and say anything to be "funny". There is nothing to be gained from that, and apparently a lot of people don't like it, including the staff at DE, hence those words being on the black list.

"Social networking"? Come on now, the game has a simple chat. Literally every online game has it. Also, why do you feel the need to tell me that you met your wife in GTA5? To make a point? It's a moot point, really, because we're discussing how and why banned words are banned. There is no problem with meeting people in-game, obviously, but discussing ones sexuality/sexual preferences is just not a part of the game at all. If you really feel the need to go sexual, do it in DMs/PMs - Why risk getting banned/attacked by trolls, knowing that it most likely will happen?

Think about it. Those rules are in place for a reason. The Warframe community is praised among others as one of the least toxic. Do you think it would still be like that, if people could go rampant with what they say? I truly doubt that.

I'm not talking about being vulgar, I don't even know what trap means so I can't comment on that. I get there's trolls, I get there's stupid, hateful people, but some people do use chat to social network in a online only, co op game. I'm one of them, I love to get on at 2AM and try to spark conversations with strangers in far away places with different outlooks.

I also brought up my wife bc you act like chat should be used for game purposes, all personal stuff be kept to PMs. No, there's nothing wrong with being open about your sexual preferences in a basic chat. Sometimes stating your sexuality, gives your opinion more validity for example.

I don't have a problem with the current rules, I get it, rotten apples always spoil the bunch. I just don't like you saying what general chat should be used for. If someone wants to go on region to flirt and try meet someone, who cares? If I wanna go on region and discuss what my political views are, who cares? If I wanna go and discuss the new Flash episode, who cares? As long as its polite, I dont care. 

Any of that is better than the constant, where Baro? Smash or Pass Lotus comments.

[(PSN)GbHaseo]

11 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Clearly DE do not want you discussing that sort of thing in their public chat.

Correct. There's also nothing wrong with not discussing your sexuality in the public chat of a flipping video game.

DE have laws they must follow that prohibit hate speech. Deal with the fact that there are trigger words and attempt to have a polite conversation without using them. I'm sure it's possible.

I don't use them, I've never been banned, or warned. My forum presence is proper enough I was invited to the design council. Im not supporting the ridding of the rules. Im saying region has no chat rules on topics, so therefore ppl can talk about whatever they want in a polite way.

There's also no laws on hate speech in America btw. It's of course rightfully frowned upon though.

Edit: I do think banning the word gay, isn't right though. There's no rules stopping me from saying I'm straight. I support and understand DE's decision, but I don't agree with it. 

Edited April 12, 2018 by (PS4)GbHaseo

[DeMonkey]

Just now, (PS4)GbHaseo said:

I don't use them, I've never been banned, or warned. My forum presence is proper enough I was invited to the design council. Im not supporting the ridding of the rules. Im saying region has no chat rules on topics, so therefore ppl can talk about whatever they want in a polite way.

Clearly region does have chat rules, otherwise people wouldn't get kicked and suspended. 

6 minutes ago, (PS4)GbHaseo said:

There's also no laws on hate speech in America btw. It's of course rightfully frowned upon though.

Good thing DE doesn't reside nor follow American laws then? They're Canadian, and Canada has from what I understand a rather large and rather vague bill specifically regarding hate speech.

[(PSN)GbHaseo]

3 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Clearly region does have chat rules, otherwise people wouldn't get kicked and suspended. 

Like I said, on topics.. There's rules on words, but not topics aside from trading, recruiting.

[Fallen_Echo]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'm not the civil kinda person when it comes to chats or real life convos, I have however never been banned or suspended anywhere. I wonder what kind of biggotry people are actually throwing around in order to get banned/suspended.

And do people really need to bring up there sexual preferences in an online chat? I mean, how insecure are you at that point if you need to flash it when you get a chance. I dont tell people what I like and would never intend to either. It isnt a shocker you get banned for such things because some people simply prefer to not know or discuss it. It is a region chat afterall, not exactly a/s/l msn territory. If you like discussing personal preferences do it in tells with people you know, randoms likely dont wanna hear it.

Well i can list you some of the common things:

1. memes
2. the word gay
3. accidentally typing in the wrong chat
4. all caps
5. annoying a mod
6. sending private messages seemingly randomly get throught the bot and if you done something inapprotiate you get banned

 

You have asked why do people would like to talk about their sexual preference? Well the answer is why not?

There is no reason to not talk about anything honestly. This is region chat, the basic chat where people go to socialize, the only chat rules we have is no profanity, be respectful and dont spam.

Thats it, no rule what says dont talk about:

1. memes
2. sexuality
3. politics
4. economy
5. religion
6. animals
7. science
8. pseudo-science
9. magic
10. whatever else

 

Just to make it clear i bolded a part in your comment where you are wrong. You are not getting banned when saying gay because its not something you should talk about in the chat, you are getting banned because the word is an insult and insults are not tolerated.

 

 

[peterc3]

1 hour ago, Orgoon said:

Wikipedia is as accurate as Encyclopedia Britannica. Unless you want to say that Nature holds no value as well.

It's almost like you shouldn't cite encyclopedias either. Given the discussion was about words, dictionaries are a good start (just because dictionary is in the name of Urban Dictionary does not one make). Using Wikipedia to start off and go through the sources cited there is fine. Using Wikipedia itself as a source is not.

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, (PS4)GbHaseo said:

I don't even know what trap means so I can't comment on that.

Trap by definition is a really sexy femine looking figure what is in reality is a male. You can see more if you type in the google "sexy trap" or "asian trap".

1 hour ago, (PS4)GbHaseo said:

I don't have a problem with the current rules, I get it, rotten apples always spoil the bunch. I just don't like you saying what general chat should be used for. If someone wants to go on region to flirt and try meet someone, who cares? If I wanna go on region and discuss what my political views are, who cares? If I wanna go and discuss the new Flash episode, who cares? As long as its polite, I dont care. 

This is the main reason i would like to get some changes done, the chat filter is there why do we need additional banning for even the least offensive insults? Why is it problem if i want to talk about memes? It shouldnt be a problem.

[SneakyErvin]

23 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Well i can list you some of the common things:

1. memes
2. the word gay
3. accidentally typing in the wrong chat
4. all caps
5. annoying a mod
6. sending private messages seemingly randomly get throught the bot and if you done something inapprotiate you get banned

 

You have asked why do people would like to talk about their sexual preference? Well the answer is why not?

There is no reason to not talk about anything honestly. This is region chat, the basic chat where people go to socialize, the only chat rules we have is no profanity, be respectful and dont spam.

Thats it, no rule what says dont talk about:

1. memes
2. sexuality
3. politics
4. economy
5. religion
6. animals
7. science
8. pseudo-science
9. magic
10. whatever else

 

Just to make it clear i bolded a part in your comment where you are wrong. You are not getting banned when saying gay because its not something you should talk about in the chat, you are getting banned because the word is an insult and insults are not tolerated.

 

 

None of your first 6 points are really a shocker to me when it comes to banning except #6 which I dont quite understand what you mean. 

Memes, slurs, caps, annoying a mod or posting in the wrong chat (they are usually very kind with that and tell people to look in the trade or recruit chat) are thing I wouldnt hesitate to ban for. Who the hell needs memes, slurs, caps or people being annoying to the mod? Who honestly thinks that is acceptable? Whoever speaks in caps should get a boot imo, it is annoying to read and nothing else.

I also never said you get banned for saying gay since it isnt something to be talked about, I just said sexual preference talk does not belong in a region chat. I dont care what you get off on or if you like wee-wees or hoo-haas. So stopping it at the word gay since it can mean several things. It can be a negative slur, it can also mean you are happy or that it is your preference when it comes to genders.

The lower list is also full of things that arent accepted in most games and their general/region chats as viable objects of discussion. Politics, sexuality and religion are big no-nos in most games. Religion and politics due to the fact that people have so many opinions and reason to get butthurt if their philosophy or invisible friend is mocked/not agreed with. Sexuality talk is usually bannable due to minors often being online, this removes the risk of having incidents with mouth breeders that usually show up on Date Line.

[DeMonkey]

44 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

This is the main reason i would like to get some changes done, the chat filter is there why do we need additional banning for even the least offensive insults? Why is it problem if i want to talk about memes? It shouldnt be a problem.

You seem to have missed...

2 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

They're Canadian, and Canada has from what I understand a rather large and rather vague bill specifically regarding hate speech.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Act_to_amend_the_Canadian_Human_Rights_Act_and_the_Criminal_Code

Yes, it is Wikipedia. This particular page is an amendment to the act in which ''Gender Expression'' was added to the definition of an ''identifiable group''. I.e. No discriminating against any 'label'.

Whilst everything should be taken with a grain of salt (because Wikipedia) it's easy to understand the gist of the information.

It is illegal, by Canadian Law, to incite or advocate hate crimes, hate speech is an example of a hate crime. Allowing the words to appear in chat shows support for that word, and is as such arguably illegal.

It's absolutely far more complicated than that, but I'm sure DE's intent is not to censor everything because they're SJW's, but to protect their business and livelihood.

Edited April 12, 2018 by DeMonkey

[rune_me]

55 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

This is the main reason i would like to get some changes done, the chat filter is there why do we need additional banning for even the least offensive insults? Why is it problem if i want to talk about memes? It shouldnt be a problem.

Here's the thing. There is no "we". This is not "our" servers. They are run by somebody else and they get to set the rules. Same as when you walk into a restaurant: if the owner thinks you're being rude, he/she can kick you out, regardless of whether you agree. Same as when you visit somebody elses home.

You just have to accept the fact that when you are in region chat, you are in DE's home. They can kick and ban you for whatever they want to. It is entirely irrelevant what you think is offensive. Or what I think is offensive. That's besides the point. The only thing that matters is what they think is offensive. If they decide it is a problem that you want to talk about memes, then it is indeed a problem. It is however only a problem when you are in their home. As soon as you are not, they have no more say in what you talk about and you can talk about memes as much as you want.

[Fallen_Echo]

13 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

None of your first 6 points are really a shocker to me when it comes to banning except #6 which I dont quite understand what you mean. 

Memes, slurs, caps, annoying a mod or posting in the wrong chat (they are usually very kind with that and tell people to look in the trade or recruit chat) are thing I wouldnt hesitate to ban for. Who the hell needs memes, slurs, caps or people being annoying to the mod? Who honestly thinks that is acceptable? Whoever speaks in caps should get a boot imo, it is annoying to read and nothing else.

I also never said you get banned for saying gay since it isnt something to be talked about, I just said sexual preference talk does not belong in a region chat. I dont care what you get off on or if you like wee-wees or hoo-haas. So stopping it at the word gay since it can mean several things. It can be a negative slur, it can also mean you are happy or that it is your preference when it comes to genders.

The lower list is also full of things that arent accepted in most games and their general/region chats as viable objects of discussion. Politics, sexuality and religion are big no-nos in most games. Religion and politics due to the fact that people have so many opinions and reason to get butthurt if their philosophy or invisible friend is mocked/not agreed with. Sexuality talk is usually bannable due to minors often being online, this removes the risk of having incidents with mouth breeders that usually show up on Date Line.

Okay before we continue i would like to ask you what is your problem with certain ones from my points.

Memes in general are jokes, but banning someone from posting an overused meme is in my definition is a low point.

The word gay in itself has many meaning but the main problem here is that we have mods actively working on removing this specific word from the banlist and bunch of people advocating it along with another bunch of people who think it should stay there. Im on a neutral side with this, i want the chat filter to handle it and not some autoban nonsense.

Annoying a mod, now im sure you do not think what i think this means. This could be a regular talk on the chat of a bunch of foreginers talking anything but not english, posting frequently asked questions joining a clem line and whatever. The problem here is the absolute power they have to decide when to ban and how long, they dont even need to reason anything, you could get banned for saying Equinox is male in your opinion.

Accidentally typing in the wrong chat should never be bannable, at worst it should send you a message to post that in X channel and post your message there.

The sixth point is a strange thing, i have heard from some players and theres a comment here about it too that the PM's we send sometimes seemingly go throught the chat bot and if you wrote anything what the chatbot is now consider offense it will get you banned. PM's be default should not be censored or monitored this way and if its a bug it should be fixed fast.

 

Also considering what you wrote in the last paragraph, as i said we have no rule what says that those are unacceptable here. Theres simply none and for the minors argument last time i checked this game is 17+ so the minors dont even have the right to be here.

 

15 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

You seem to have missed...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Act_to_amend_the_Canadian_Human_Rights_Act_and_the_Criminal_Code

Yes, it is Wikipedia. This particular page is an amendment to the act in which ''Gender Expression'' to the definition of an ''identifiable group''. I.e. No discriminating against any 'label'.

Whilst everything should be taken with a grain of salt (because Wikipedia) it's easy to understand the gist of the information.

It is illegal, by Canadian Law, to incite or advocate hate crimes, hate speech is an example of a hate crime. Allowing the words to appear in chat shows support for that word, and is as such arguably illegal.

It's absolutely far more complicated than that, but I'm sure DE's sole intent is not to censor everything because they're SJW's, but to protect their business and livelihood.

I have seen that already and its an interesting read because according to it, its illegal to discriminate against any 'label' simply said, but isnt prohibiting to use your own label is discrimination in itself?

[DeMonkey]

19 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

but isnt prohibiting to use your own label is discrimination in itself?

No. Not in my opinion. Not when it's a counter to hate speech and potential lawsuits.

Can't be discriminated against if you can't say anything potentially discrimatory. 

Edited April 12, 2018 by DeMonkey

[SneakyErvin]

2 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Okay before we continue i would like to ask you what is your problem with certain ones from my points.

Memes in general are jokes, but banning someone from posting an overused meme is in my definition is a low point.

The word gay in itself has many meaning but the main problem here is that we have mods actively working on removing this specific word from the banlist and bunch of people advocating it along with another bunch of people who think it should stay there. Im on a neutral side with this, i want the chat filter to handle it and not some autoban nonsense.

Annoying a mod, now im sure you do not think what i think this means. This could be a regular talk on the chat of a bunch of foreginers talking anything but not english, posting frequently asked questions joining a clem line and whatever. The problem here is the absolute power they have to decide when to ban and how long, they dont even need to reason anything, you could get banned for saying Equinox is male in your opinion.

Accidentally typing in the wrong chat should never be bannable, at worst it should send you a message to post that in X channel and post your message there.

The sixth point is a strange thing, i have heard from some players and theres a comment here about it too that the PM's we send sometimes seemingly go throught the chat bot and if you wrote anything what the chatbot is now consider offense it will get you banned. PM's be default should not be censored or monitored this way and if its a bug it should be fixed fast.

 

Also considering what you wrote in the last paragraph, as i said we have no rule what says that those are unacceptable here. Theres simply none and for the minors argument last time i checked this game is 17+ so the minors dont even have the right to be here.

Repeating old beaten-like-a-dead-horse memes could be considered spam. It is up to the mod.

The word gay is a grey area, filtering it would be the best option.

Annoying a mod, by the way you describe it is indeed a reason to suspend or ban. You simply dont sit in a regional chat of an international game and blabber on your own language. It is disruptive to say the least. I'm swedish myself and I wouldnt imagine to talk swedish in a global chat for a prolonged time, it is just poor manners and disrespectful to fellow players. Clem line and the FAQ is the same deal, both could be seen as spam. Even if you just happen to post once in the Clem line, it is still spam due to the same message interrupting the chat over and over.

"Accidentally" typing in the wrong chat can be a wide subject. Some do it by actual accident, others do it because it is fun. When the same person does it a few times a day for a week, the mods will likely look into it more. These are rarely one time cases. Much like the "Where Baro!?" spam. It may be fun and cute, but it gets old really fast.

Regarding that 6th point. I'd take that with a grain of salt. Never trust what people tell you online, especially regarding such things.

And regarding the last paragraph. There are surely things in the ToS or EULA that covers what is and what isnt appropriate for the chat. Even though the game may be M, it doesnt mean the chat is open for everything. M is just a guideline, parents can still allow their minors to play by turning off the things that put the game at an M rating, like gore in this case. There isnt exactly strong language or nudity in the game. I think I've heard one "inappropriate" word, namely "*@##$es" in the index. So no reason why in depth sexual preference discussions should be part of the chat. And with politics and religion, it is simply a case of keeping a neutral ground, which never happens when those subjects are allowed to be discussed. It only leads to toxicity. And it isnt just about the people arguing it, people not even part of the discussion can get hit by flak. That is why political and religious discussions should stay in tells if people fancy discussing those things on a game about space ninjas.