Dear DE -these are unacceptable odds (khora drop chance)

[SixDimensions]

14 minutes ago, morningstar999 said:

which still had higher drop % then this! 

your kidding right? I did like 10 waves of the normal level and got bored so i wanted to do the harder mode to make it more fun but it the drop chances are lower :O :( 

The reward does not determine whether or not the gameplay itself is fun. It determines if playing gameplay that you don't like is worth it.  If you don't like the game type that's one thing. But this is like saying "drop tables exclusive to defense mode should be increased so I can play them less because I think they're boring"

10 minutes ago, morningstar999 said:

statistically, you could be doing 100's of hours in the sanctuary and still not get it, the game also takes an age to ramp up and be a bit more fun. so you have too snooze for a while. (someone said the harder mode has lower drop chances of getting her but I dunno if thats true.) 

theres low odds then theres basicly no odds. 

This is not a statistic.  It's also not even an accurate concept.  The statistical likelihood of a repeated event actually increases the more you repeat it, hence why we grind for gear.

 

I'm not trying to pick on you or call you out. I'm just hoping that you'll provide evidence as a reason for your argument.  Otherwise it's just a biased opinion which will get similar responses from others.  Sorry if it seems I'm nitpicking you

[Firetempest]

Already had like 2 parts with 3 duplicates from 3 runs... But 2 of those runs are void because of crashes. It won't be bad if the mission WoULd WoRk! *Skreee*

At least try to farm them (in a few days) before going on odds.

Edited April 20, 2018 by Firetempest

[Nesodos]

imo they should make the khora dropchance higher for easy mode and remove her from hard mode entirely

[NullSaint]

When I started WF, I bought a lot of frames. Now that I'm more established and have a lot more resources, I regret that deeply (a lot of them anyway. Not Atlas.) now as I now have all  the "easy" to farm frames, and the only ones left are the primes. Which are not necessarily difficult, but if you want to talk about drop chances....

Basically, relax and enjoy the grind. One day you'll look back fondly on it. And if you really just can't stand it, you can buy the frame outright and never worry about it again.

[Phatose]

6 minutes ago, SixDimensions said:

This is not a statistic.  It's also not even an accurate concept.  The statistical likelihood of a repeated event actually increases the more you repeat it, hence why we grind for gear.

 

I'm not trying to pick on you or call you out. I'm just hoping that you'll provide evidence as a reason for your argument.  Otherwise it's just a biased opinion which will get similar responses from others.  Sorry if it seems I'm nitpicking you

It is an accurate concept though.  The probability of never receiving a particular part decreases as number of repetitions increases, but it never disappears.  Even an infinite number of times isn't a guarantee. For example, It's absolutely possible to flip an infinite number of coins and never get heads, simply because an infinite chain of tails is possible.  Extraordinarily unlikely, but still a reasonable possibility.

 

That said, it's a strange approach to take on drop chances, because that's true even if the drop chance was 99.999%.

Edited April 20, 2018 by Phatose

[Twilight053]

Welcome to old school Warframe. 

[Twilight053]

Welcome to old school Warframe. 

[morningstar999]

3 minutes ago, SixDimensions said:

The reward does not determine whether or not the gameplay itself is fun. It determines if playing gameplay that you don't like is worth it.  If you don't like the game type that's one thing. But this is like saying "drop tables exclusive to defense mode should be increased so I can play them less because I think they're boring"

This is not a statistic.  It's also not even an accurate concept.  The statistical likelihood of a repeated event actually increases the more you repeat it, hence why we grind for gear.

 

I'm not trying to pick on you or call you out. I'm just hoping that you'll provide evidence as a reason for your argument.  Otherwise it's just a biased opinion which will get similar responses from others.  Sorry if it seems I'm nitpicking you

no because your relying on low % and RNG.

I still don't have the last harrow part after 70 runs, for example.

your odds don't get higher the more you repeat its always the same roll of the dice everytime. 

Im not even suggesting the drop chances should be crazy good, just you know not  the piss poor 3-5% -you'll still need to do lots of grind, just af few hours left if your lucky. 

you don't even get credit rewards to make it worthwhile. 

what if and here's a silly idea, the longer you played in the sanctuary the better the rewards got? give a reason to push and grind hard. otherwise, most people are just gonna screw it after the first rotation c just to start over again and take the easy (but boring) grind. 

 

[DarkOvion]

28 minutes ago, MithVakhar said:

2.5 minutes a zone (quite short)
Have you seen Ivara parts? All 3 datas in a spy mission: 9.09% systems, 5.64% chasis (7.37 if you do lua), 7.52% neuroptics and bp each...
Nidus, only on rotation C (which is quite a long time) 14.29% for just 1 of the parts.

If anything, this is a lot easier of a farm.
Sorry but a brand new frame with very short rounds and actual decent part drop rate? Please don't throw your math book out the window when making such a claim.

So every 5 minutes, you get a nothing chance.
By average, you will need:

13 RA's for the Chassis

14 RB's for the Neuroptics

18 RC's for the Systems or Blueprint, 36 for both.

Also, the only reward you get is 1 item every 5 minutes.

So for 20 RCs, or 7 hours of frankly boring grind (because your 'progress' is reset every 2.5 minutes meaning ramp-up abilities suffer and it's just a bland one-room-kill mode), you get exactly 80 rewards.

Statistically, of which, 1 will be Systems -or- Blueprints, 1-2 Neuroptics, 1-2 Chasis, around 3,000-4,000 endo, 20-30 Lith Relics, 10-20 Meso Relics, 1-2 Shards, 5-10 Scenes (of 3 possible) and 0 Credits.

Meaning purely by the odds you need to play at least 14 hours to get Khora. But thanks to the odds being 50/50, it's probably more like 21/28+.

If playing on easy, it's around 2.5 times more to get it out of hard where the beginning of a concept of a 'challenge' is.

If nothing else, BP should have been RA...

Edited April 20, 2018 by DarkOvion

[SixDimensions]

1 minute ago, Phatose said:

It is an accurate concept though.  The probability of never receiving a particular part decreases as number of repetitions increases, but it never disappears.  Even an infinite number of times isn't a guarantee. For example, It's absolutely possible to flip an infinite number of coins and never get heads, simply because an infinite chain of tails is possible.  Extraordinarily unlikely, but still a reasonable possibility.

I guess in a logical sense you're not wrong.  An equivalent would be to say "I can walk outside every day for a year and never find rain".  Technically true and so accurate in that sense, but not providing any useful information to work with and therefore whether or not it's accurate is irrelevant

[morningstar999]

Just now, Twilight053 said:

Welcome to old school Warframe. 

Ive been playing for 3 years old shcool warfame used to be a good balance of grind vs reward  a frame pretty well, but over the past year they have made it horrible.  

[SixDimensions]

6 minutes ago, morningstar999 said:

no because your relying on low % and RNG.

I still don't have the last harrow part after 70 runs, for example.

your odds don't get higher the more you repeat its always the same roll of the dice everytime. 

 

That's not true in statistics.  Simple example is a coin flip.  You want to get Tails.  Your odds per flip are 50/50. You're very right that your odds per singular event do not change.  But your odd for repeated/sequential events do change.  1st flip = H:50% T:50%. 2nd flip = (so in sequence) is actually the likelihood of getting Heads twice in a row versus the odds of Heads then Tails.  3rd flip even more so.  The odds of getting Heads 3 times in a row is statistically less than the odds of you just getting Tails on your third flip

 

6 minutes ago, morningstar999 said:

you don't even get credit rewards to make it worthwhile. 

what if and here's a silly idea, the longer you played in the sanctuary the better the rewards got? give a reason to push and grind hard. otherwise, most people are just gonna screw it after the first rotation c just to start over again and take the easy (but boring) grind. 

It would be nice if the odds scaled but then they would have to choose what scales and how as not everyone might be playing for the same thing.  If they could find a way to make that work then I'd certainly be all for it

Edited April 20, 2018 by SixDimensions
accidentally wrote "yes" instead of "less"

[DarkOvion]

See, what would increase your odds is if DE implemented a system where in a single run, every time you get a reward, it removes it from the drop table.

i.e RA you get Endo. Endo is now removed. RA you get a B2 Relic, that relic is now removed, etc, until all rewards have been claimed then it resets.

This would *actually* reward playing longer, and give an option to improve the odds.

[Twilight053]

10 minutes ago, morningstar999 said:

Ive been playing for 3 years old shcool warfame used to be a good balance of grind vs reward  a frame pretty well, but over the past year they have made it horrible.  

5 years old school Warframe used to have a prime part on C Survival rotation with 2.01% chance of dropping. 

Edited April 20, 2018 by Twilight053

[SixDimensions]

Just now, DarkOvion said:

See, what would increase your odds is if DE implemented a system where in a single run, every time you get a reward, it removes it from the drop table.

i.e RA you get Endo. Endo is now removed. RA you get a B2 Relic, that relic is now removed, etc, until all rewards have been claimed then it resets.

This would *actually* reward playing longer, and give an option to improve the odds.

It might but what if you're trying to farm multiples of the same relic? Say stocking up before something gets vaulted? 

I suppose that could be alleviated by just leaving right after you get that reward and restarting but unless you squad up with that expectation people would get annoyed real fast. Maybe getting the reward doesn't remove it completely but shifts the percentages accordingly? That way if you get a B2 Relic the chances go down while others go up but then you get Endo and the B2 increases again

[Phatose]

1 minute ago, DarkOvion said:

See, what would increase your odds is if DE implemented a system where in a single run, every time you get a reward, it removes it from the drop table.

i.e RA you get Endo. Endo is now removed. RA you get a B2 Relic, that relic is now removed, etc, until all rewards have been claimed then it resets.

This would *actually* reward playing longer, and give an option to improve the odds.

Playing longer, by itself, improves the odd of receiving an item on that run.  Not on a particular roll, but over the whole run. 

I'd really rather not see this mechanic, simply because DE will adjust base drop rates down to account for it, making short runs ineffective. I do not think the ability to stay in your chair for a long time should be rewarded.

[DarkOvion]

1 minute ago, Twilight053 said:

5 years old school Warframe used to have a prime part on C Survival rotation with 2.01% chance of dropping. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

An argument of 'some things used to be worse' isn't really an excuse for poor practices then or now tbh.

The mode is not fun. It does not provide rewards. And the rewards it does provide, statistically will take forever to get anything worthwhile.

1 minute ago, SixDimensions said:

It might but what if you're trying to farm multiples of the same relic? Say stocking up before something gets vaulted? 

I suppose that could be alleviated by just leaving right after you get that reward and restarting but unless you squad up with that expectation people would get annoyed real fast. Maybe getting the reward doesn't remove it completely but shifts the percentages accordingly? That way if you get a B2 Relic the chances go down while others go up but then you get Endo and the B2 increases again

simply adjusting chances does not ensure a going the full run will get all, there's still a chance you never get it therefore defeating the point.

Like you say, if you want it 'sooner' just leave and return, it resets it.

[NamingPolicyViolation]

54 minutes ago, morningstar999 said:

so let me get this straight, not only does this frame not get a quest, but the drop chances for the parts are probably the worst in the history of any warframe. 

with the Chassis dropping in rotation A (8.33%), the Neuroptics in rotation B (7.69%) and the Systems and the blueprint in rotation C (5.64% each).

and its not like rare relic drops where you can increase your odds either. 

This is not acceptable.  

if you wanted to annoy players then this is how you go about it! You're basically going to force the majority of players to buy the frame or just not bother with it at all, your making the sanctuary into a chore not into a fun game mode, no other frame has odds this low, and yet 1000's of people are still happy to buy those frames!  you might as well throw the whole 'free to play' concept into the bin, with odds like this. 

I hope other fellow tenno will join me in saying these % chances need to change, even something like 15-20% would still make it hard to get yet not impossible, and a far more acceptable level. 

 

My 100+ runs on defection for harrow piece agrees with you.

My 5 figure plat cache from free to play in less then 6 months does not agree. I bought weapons and frame. Plat is so cheap, there is really no point wasting time farming.

[Twilight053]

1 minute ago, DarkOvion said:

An argument of 'some things used to be worse' isn't really an excuse for poor practices then or now tbh.

Welcome to old school Warframe.

[Cyler]

vor einer Stunde schrieb morningstar999:

I hope other fellow tenno will join me in saying these % chances need to change, even something like 15-20% would still make it hard to get yet not impossible, and a far more acceptable level. 

No, thanks. I don't want a frame after a day worth of playing, where's the work in that? I like those odds tbh, but that's just my opinion.

[DarkOvion]

Just now, Phatose said:

Playing longer, by itself, improves the odd of receiving an item on that run.  Not on a particular roll, but over the whole run. 

I'd really rather not see this mechanic, simply because DE will adjust base drop rates down to account for it, making short runs ineffective. I do not think the ability to stay in your chair for a long time should be rewarded.

the idea would be... don't adjust the percentages, because they're already sort of crap and to get the 'high end' items would still take 15-20 rotations to acquire

Also see 'Gamblers Fallacy' for who playing longer doesn't actually improve odds.

" The gambler's fallacy, also known as the Monte Carlo fallacy or the fallacy of the maturity of chances, is the mistaken belief that, if something happens more frequently than normal during a given period, it will happen less frequently in the future. It may also be stated as the belief that, if something happens less frequently than normal during a given period, it will happen more frequently in the future. In situations where the outcome being observed is truly random and consists of independent trials of a random process, this belief is false. The fallacy can arise in many situations, but is most strongly associated with gambling, where it is common among players. "

The only 'improved odd' is that you have more attempts at it, and eventually it'll work out, but because it's not going to be statistically exact, if you have a 1 in 18 chance the first run, you still have a 1 in 18 chance the 100th run.

[KaineKaneChing]

It's getting lesser and lesser oof

[DarkOvion]

1 minute ago, Cyler said:

No, thanks. I don't want a frame after a day worth of playing, where's the work in that? I like those odds tbh, but that's just my opinion.

This I think is a misrepresentation and a straw man.

People don't want it to be 'in a day of play', which would realistically be 1-2 hours.

But, things taking 5-8 hours of ingame play to acquire, including farming the parts and materials isn't unreasonable is it?

Instead of 20+ hours for just the parts, THEN farming materials on top.

[Iludra]

Honestly, at a first glance the drop chances don't seem so bad, and are in line with other stuff in game. I still remember Nidus. Framing him was terribly painful, because it was about repeating the same boring mission on one of 2 possible tilesets again and again and again. With Khora there's more variety, so I think while this will be a grind, it will be a fun one. 

[DarkOvion]

3 minutes ago, Iludra said:

Honestly, at a first glance the drop chances don't seem so bad, and are in line with other stuff in game. I still remember Nidus. Framing him was terribly painful, because it was about repeating the same boring mission on one of 2 possible tilesets again and again and again. With Khora there's more variety, so I think while this will be a grind, it will be a fun one. 

It's the exact same mission always that is in one small room, but that room changes and your warframe 'resets' every 2.5 minutes.