Mission Rewards and Enemy Scaling are Negatively Impacting Frame Design

[BlackCoMerc]

By now we know Khora mostly sucks. She has a scaling melee ability for her one. A seriously underwhelming Kavat. And two mediocre-at-best Crowd Control abilities. Because we cant have a frame with those.

Literally. We CAN'T have a frame without those. 

Because no one would want it.

This is a two part problem. Firstly, that the CC abilities are mediocre compared to what has come before. We will examine that first. Second, that every frame still MUST have non-damage based CC abilities to begin with, otherwise, no one will even bother with it, or the attached, game extending grind/plat purchase of the frame. We will address that second. Both facets of Khora's design - and the design of other recent frames - are, obviously, a problem for the game and DE, both in terms of customer engagement with the product, and profitability of said product.

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Medicore (by comparison) CC Abilities

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The cause of this is simple. There is no way - NO way - DE can give us non damage Crowd Control that rivals Loki, Nyx, Nova and arguably Rhino. The Crowd Control abilities attached to these frames are so good, that new abilities simply cannot compete. 

So why does DE continue to force Crowd Control onto every frame?

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The NEED for Crowd Control Abilities

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Simply put, if a frame lacks some form of non-damage oriented Crowd Control (aka, infinitely scaling CC) players mostly are not interested. They dont want it. Why?

Because only Endless Missions are rewarding. And Endless missions, mean Enemy Scaling. Most notably, Armor Scaling. So long as every frame HAS to perform well in Endless missions with Endless Armor Scaling, the frame will REQUIRE Non-Damage oriented Crowd Control. Because if it lacks this, it will simply be replaced with another frame, or ignored from the start.

But what, you might ask, is wrong with frames that excel in Non-Endless missions instead of Endless? Simply put, they are useless. I mean, sure, they may be okay for unlocking Star Chart nodes...but beyond that - for regular use, in other words - these frames would be useless. Because Non-Endless missions are extremely unrewarding and each one is not worth running more than once, outside of the very occasional Relic run (for which people still mostly prefer Endless missions, because, rewards). 

Until - and unless - DE either fix armor scaling, or make Non-Endless missions actually rewarding, Frame Design will remain trapped in a downward spiral. Interest in frames will continue to depend on Scaling Crowd Control. Which can never be as good as what we already have, resulting in a lack of interest in newer frames and/or intense man hours for reworking a new frame immediately after release. 

The time is long past for the balance overhaul Warframe badly needs. Overpowered players have resulted in grossly over-scaled armor, invulnerable phases on bosses, lore shattering power negation wherever DE deems is necessary for "challenge" (which is really just a gear check) and other knee jerk reactions such as the gross over use of unavoidable AoE and aim-botting input robbing attacks and abilities on the part of enemies. When you reach a point where nearly EVERY SINGLE ENEMY in your game can either negate some facet of a player's toolkit and/or rob them of input, your game has a serious design issue. And its high time Warframe fixed this.

Failing that, its time Non-Endless missions were made truly rewarding. Relics as Exterminate Rewards. Rotation rewards on Mobile Defense. Heck, maybe even throw out some Minor/Common Riven mods outside of Sorties (with only two or three buffs and no unveiling slowing players down) to get players interested in doing something other then Endless modes. 

Regardless of which path DE take, until players no longer need to deal with Endless Armor Scaling in order to get rewards from this game, Frame Design will continue to be trapped in this cycle of declining interest, where rewarding game modes require Scaling CC that cannot possibly be as good as what already exists, negating interest in the frame that the tacked on CC was intended to generate to begin with.

 

[Qianna]

khora is looking good tho, cant compete with that one

[Xzorn]

Endless missions don't always require CC.

You generally pick between a Bunker, CC, eHP or Invis group. It's limited but not strictly reliant on CC. Esp since DE added Nullifiers to the game and yes a group based around eHP can theoretically scale the the level cap. Works better for Defense than Survival though since you sacrifice damage output.

There's nothing wrong with armor scaling directly. There are faults in the damage system itself but armor actually works pretty well. I would more argue damage output scaling or raw health scaling for armored enemies. Armor itself isn't that hard to deal with, it's the health scaling you start to feel.

Can't say much about Khora she didn't look interesting in the first place. Not in a hurry.

[BlackCoMerc]

4 hours ago, Xzorn said:

Endless missions don't always require CC.

You generally pick between a Bunker, CC, eHP or Invis group. It's limited but not strictly reliant on CC. Esp since DE added Nullifiers to the game and yes a group based around eHP can theoretically scale the the level cap. Works better for Defense than Survival though since you sacrifice damage output.

There's nothing wrong with armor scaling directly. There are faults in the damage system itself but armor actually works pretty well. I would more argue damage output scaling or raw health scaling for armored enemies. Armor itself isn't that hard to deal with, it's the health scaling you start to feel.

Can't say much about Khora she didn't look interesting in the first place. Not in a hurry.

The problem remains, however: So long as we have to deal with endless scaling in order to get rewards, only frames which scale will be useful. This means damage dealing frames will always be less popular and less sought after than CC frames. Which is why DE feels the needs to attach scaling CC to every frame, in a desperate attempt to make it relevant (they learned from Ivara). 

Unfortunately, DE cannot make scaling, non-damage CC as good as what we have. There simply isnt any way to beat M-Prime, Chaos, Irradiated Disarm and Vauban. It cannot BE done.

So we get what we have here: A damage oriented frame, with not one but two lackluster CC abilities shoehorned into her kit. A kit that could have focused on damage. Or support. Or pet boosts, and made her custom Kavat a real star. But no. In a desperate - and ultimately vain - attempt to make Khora relevant, they shoved kit-diluting CC onto a damage frame, weakening her kit, while also failing to make her CC abilities as good those already available, ensuring that she still wont be as popular as existing frames.

All because of the design philosophy that only endless missions should be rewarded.

What happened to being Ninjas? infiltrating enemy bases. Pulling off covert or combat missions, achieving the objective and extracting? A departing player posted on these forums in 2013 that Endless content would drag this game down, as "staying longer" and the resultant power creep would replace actual content.

Turns out, they were right.

[DrBorris]

The funny thing is, CC sucks in Onslaught.

[BlackCoMerc]

Just now, DrBorris said:

The funny thing is, CC sucks in Onslaught.

To be fair, everything sucks in Onslaught. Including the mode itself. Its just survival minus the O2. Complete with the same enemies and tiles and abilities we have used for years. People will get the Vandal weapons, and maybe Khora, and never touch it again.

[DrBorris]

Just now, BlackCoMerc said:

To be fair, everything sucks in Onslaught. Including the mode itself. Its just survival minus the O2. Complete with the same enemies and tiles and abilities we have used for years. People will get the Vandal weapons, and maybe Khora, and never touch it again.

But... um... I really, really like Onslaught.

 

That is just my opinion though, and how dare it not be the same as yours.

[tnccs215]

I agree with the sentiment here, but I disagree with a major point: that non-endless missions are non-rewarding. 

This is not only untrue, is patently false - though not directly. 

Technically yes, endless missions are the most rewarding (with the exception of Kuva-oriented missions), but they are not rewarding because they are endless. Indeed, they are the most rewarding when they are treated as non-endless, with periodic extractions in order to maximize loot. 

This comes out of the fact that rewards are awarded in cycles that refresh at most every 20 minutes - effectively making it inefficient to stay longer than that. Every exception to this - namely endless fissure runs - is simply not rewarding enough to offset it.

And yet, I do want to note that this doesn't change most of the conclusions you reached, rather it changed how they are reached. 

Why? Because, exactly due to the horrendously overpowered kits we have access to (as you mentioned), any non-endless mission, due to the level limit, is effectively rendered irrelevant in terms of difficulty. They are all simply of a too low level for frame choice to be trully relevant - excluding for loot maximization, of course, but that is more of a choice, not a necessity due to survivability issues - and therefore they matter next to nothing. Which results in endless missions being the only ones deserving attention. 

In short: endless missions don't matter more because they are the only rewarding: they matter more because every other mission is a brutal cakewalk. 

Of course, this does mean making non endless missions more rewarding won't fix anything (hasn't World of Fire taught us nothing?). Only giving a massive balance pass, that includes some massive nerfs to Warframe powers and enemy scaling, will fix anything. 

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 hour ago, DrBorris said:

The funny thing is, CC sucks in Onslaught.

Onslaught sucks from what I've seen.

[DrBorris]

33 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Onslaught sucks from what I've seen.

I... I don't even know why I try.

[BlackCoMerc]

16 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Onslaught sucks from what I've seen.

One of the worst experiences I have had in Warframe. Or in gaming of late, to be honest. And yes, I DO realize I am saying that about a lot of Warframe missions and content lately. But it keeps being true. 

Design is seriously lacking in the last two years plus. Low effort filler missions. Operator mode. Recycled assets and enemies. Knee jerk reactions to overpowered players. Its an incoherent mess of disparate, disconnected mechanics, with PoE coming in like a tacked on extra game that makes me choose whether I want to play Warframe, or open map kiddie mode, because no way do I have time for Prime Gear grind in Warframe, AND the circular Quills Grind in Warframe 2: Operator Mode. 

DE REALLY needs to bring someone in and let them turn this into a coherent, fun game, before its too late. Balance overhaul. Tying together disparate modes and mechanics into one coherent game. Understanding and implementing fun, engaging challenge as opposed to control robbing, screen blurring, power canceling tedium...and content that goes beyond "How long can you last in THIS mode" for once.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

17 hours ago, DrBorris said:

I... I don't even know why I try.

No, it's ok if you like it. For me tho a bunch of relics and cheap vandals aren't worth the time. Especially with that kind of gameplay, whatever the F that is. It doesn't look worth even installing the game again.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

2 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

One of the worst experiences I have had in Warframe. Or in gaming of late, to be honest. And yes, I DO realize I am saying that about a lot of Warframe missions and content lately. But it keeps being true. 

Design is seriously lacking in the last two years plus. Low effort filler missions. Operator mode. Recycled assets and enemies. Knee jerk reactions to overpowered players. Its an incoherent mess of disparate, disconnected mechanics, with PoE coming in like a tacked on extra game that makes me choose whether I want to play Warframe, or open map kiddie mode, because no way do I have time for Prime Gear grind in Warframe, AND the circular Quills Grind in Warframe 2: Operator Mode. 

DE REALLY needs to bring someone in and let them turn this into a coherent, fun game, before its too late. Balance overhaul. Tying together disparate modes and mechanics into one coherent game. Understanding and implementing fun, engaging challenge as opposed to control robbing, screen blurring, power canceling tedium...and content that goes beyond "How long can you last in THIS mode" for once.

Bunch of random mechanics hastily thrown together in a shallow pond. *che*

Edited April 22, 2018 by AperoBeltaTwo

[tucker_d_dawg]

While I somewhat agree with your conclusion that khora is underwhelming, the reasoning behind it is off.

• Endless is not the only rewarding mission type.  It depends on what you are trying to get.
• Endless generally lasts at most 40 minutes - and there is very little by way of content that only goes 40 minutes that requires any crowd control as we have weapons and abilities that will kill them faster than they become a threat.  Now for new players, yes they need cc - but for any experienced player, most cc SHOULD fall by the wayside in favor of more efficient killing than slowing enemies down.
• Not every frame NEEDS  - its simply a nice to have. 

As I see it, Khora is not a good healer, not a good damage dealer, not a good tank, her cc is mediocre and she certainly doesn't need TWO cc abilities.  So until a rework, she appears to be MR fodder. (and probably a plat goldmine for DE given how they buried her parts)

 

[AperoBeltaTwo]

6 minutes ago, tucker_d_dawg said:

Endless is not the only rewarding mission type. 

Pretty much every other mission type in warframe that isn't endless barely lasts 5 minutes and with the enemy levels we see in missions like that you might as well go in with any naked warframe using a random melee weapon of your choice and you've won pretty much the whole game.

Edited April 22, 2018 by AperoBeltaTwo

[Mach25]

On 4/21/2018 at 3:33 PM, BlackCoMerc said:

...People will get the Vandal weapons, and maybe Khora, and never touch it again.

Agreed, though there will be others who will use it for leveling their weapons or getting focus very quickly - I saw someone posted that before and Elite Onslaught is a good way to get a bunch of focus. As for myself, I enjoy pushing myself in Elite Onslaught - testing my weaponry and tactics, much like I do in the Arena and Index. Perhaps I'm a bit of a sadist, but I enjoy high-intensity missions.

Strong points about missions affecting frame design. I find myself fighting in the Index and Arena to really challenge me to fight like a ninja. However, I'm not facing a mssive horde of enemies that necessitate crowd control abilities - this being a core aspect of Warframe that has, if I'm reading you correctly, become its weakness in a way spoken of 5 years ago that is now beginning to take form for all to see. Interesting.

 

Edited April 23, 2018 by Mach25
Grammatical errors