Developer Workshop: Saryn Revisited 2.0

[Ozamchist]

58 minutes ago, Keltik0ne said:

You seem to have missed the point of my post, that corrosive spores will be less useful on onslaught than the current viral, easier spread and recastable version. 

Guess what, they will be less useful, even with miasma being viral, since you can currently spread viral goodness around the whole map with a few casts, using toxic lash and a long ranged melee to maintain energy (and health if you use the right melee build).

Taking away the recast and swapping to corrosive is a nerf, straight up, to the mode I was talking about and while it's probably needed (sporeyn is devastating in it) it is in no way a buff.

In onslaught, you know, what I mentioned. 

Edit: however, having just reread the new lash ability, it has insane damage potential, miasma and molt are not going to be greatly useful, but lash, that;s scary if it makes it to live. 

In fact, it has to potential to be really, really game breakingly OP, I admit I missed it totally in the spore change, I mean, dear god, it has the potential to be by far her most damaging ability.

Maybe read in more detail and take time to think about things before spouting nonsense. It's starting sound like the people who freaked out over her first changes. Don't end up being like them.

If you have used Saryn for a long time, and tapped into what the entirety of what her kit can do, instead of swallowing meta cookie cutter nonsense you would know this is a buff.

[Konachibi]

16 minutes ago, Knight_Ex said:

Once you recast spores it will detonate all currently cast spores on the map.....THATS A NERF

I agree with this.  Sometimes you'll Spore an enemy then your team-mates will kill everything around it before you have chance to pop them, making it a total waste.  Because of this, you could leave that enemy alone while you waited for more spawns around it's area and meanwhile Spore another enemy somewhere else to spread in that direction.  This made her really good at survival as you could spread anywhere and everywhere.  Making it so recasting causes them to detonate removes that advantage and leaves you at the mercy of the rest of your team not being dumb enough to smash everything before you get a spore chain going.  And let's face it, most people ARE that stupid, which is why Mag has so much trouble getting a Magnetize off, or Khora struggles with spreading an Ensnare, now Spore will also suffer that problem when DE should be working on making frames LESS annoying.

[Knight_Ex]

1 minute ago, Konachibi said:

I agree with this.  Sometimes you'll Spore an enemy then your team-mates will kill everything around it before you have chance to pop them, making it a total waste.  Because of this, you could leave that enemy alone while you waited for more spawns around it's area and meanwhile Spore another enemy somewhere else to spread in that direction.  This made her really good at survival as you could spread anywhere and everywhere.  Making it so recasting causes them to detonate removes that advantage and leaves you at the mercy of the rest of your team not being dumb enough to smash everything before you get a spore chain going.  And let's face it, most people ARE that stupid, which is why Mag has so much trouble getting a Magnetize off, or Khora struggles with spreading an Ensnare, now Spore will also suffer that problem when DE should be working on making frames LESS annoying.

Lets not forget that spreading spores is a big part of maintaining your damage, if you are limited to casting once and then waiting for the spores to spread then your not playing saryn right, not to mention earlier on the damage will get too high and it will be beyond your control to "detonate" the spores yourself...god the more I read the more I realize how bad the nerf is.

[Draco_VW]

Since Saryn is my main girl I will take any changes with a grain of salt, on paper I do like this rework, my only concern will be the spread in high lvl "end game" and if you still spread the toxic (if we could spread viral and toxic it would be awesome *wink *wink) but just gona wait and see, love the changes to Molt, Toxic lash, and Miasma, but I have one question about the " Recasting Spores will detonate all active Spores" will the recasting just detonate the active spores or will detonate the active spores and apply new ones if we target a enemy?

 

[Knight_Ex]

2 minutes ago, Draco_VW said:

Since Saryn is my main girl I will take any changes with a grain of salt, on paper I do like this rework, my only concern will be the spread in high lvl "end game" and if you still spread the toxic (if we could spread viral and toxic it would be awesome *wink *wink) but just gona wait and see, love the changes to Molt, Toxic lash, and Miasma, but I have one question about the " Recasting Spores will detonate all active Spores" will the recasting just detonate the active spores or will detonate the active spores and apply new ones if we target a enemy?

 

Spores are detonated when recast, so any spores you have will detonate when you cast them on another enemy, so spreading is going to be extremely difficult, if the enemy is killed while spores are on them then they detonate and spread to current enemies on the map, when no enemies remain then the spores stop, this is an issue because you literally will be doing even damage across the board, so when your spores get to the one shot point it will be damn near impossible to maintain that damage as it will reset the counter when all enemies died, whereas recasting spores in old Saryn allowed you to vary the damage numbers so that there would always be at least ONE enemy on the map, and no spores are corrossive now not viral.

[Purity]

I'm seeing alot of people who disagree with the viral to corrosive, so uhh hopefully something can be done about that, either just leaving viral as is or allowing an augment choice. Others talk about spores scaling and resetting to be problematic. So I propose that spores can be recasted up to a certain number (casting on enemies already with spores do not stack). The aoe burst .can then be done by holding 1. Makes it less limiting for defense missions. If say around 4 recasts max before an auto MANDITORY aoe pop would be sufficient. In between those cast you hold 1 to have an aoe burst and the counter restarts. At the max of 4 recast, recasting a 5th time causes it to pop again. Its just so that spores wont be hellishly useless during low level gamrplay, and it allows for strategic play, without having saryn players camp.

[Knight_Ex]

4 minutes ago, Jebbers said:

I'm seeing alot of people who disagree with the viral to corrosive, so uhh hopefully something can be done about that, either just leaving viral as is or allowing an augment choice. Others talk about spores scaling and resetting to be problematic. So I propose that spores can be recasted up to a certain number (casting on enemies already with spores do not stack). The aoe burst .can then be done by holding 1. Makes it less limiting for defense missions. If say around 4 recasts max before an auto MANDITORY aoe pop would be sufficient. In between those cast you hold 1 to have an aoe burst and the counter restarts. At the max of 4 recast, recasting a 5th time causes it to pop again. Its just so that spores wont be hellishly useless during low level gamrplay, and it allows for strategic play, without having saryn players camp.

Or..OR they could leave Saryn alone cause she's honestly fine as is, except the molt+spore turret....take that out if you want but leave how spores works alone.  #LeaveSarynAlone

Edited May 11, 2018 by Knight_Ex

[Draco_VW]

2 minutes ago, Knight_Ex said:

Spores are detonated when recast, so any spores you have will detonate when you cast them on another enemy, so spreading is going to be extremely difficult, if the enemy is killed while spores are on them then they detonate and spread to current enemies on the map, when no enemies remain then the spores stop, this is an issue because you literally will be doing even damage across the board, so when your spores get to the one shot point it will be damn near impossible to maintain that damage as it will reset the counter when all enemies died, whereas recasting spores in old Saryn allowed you to vary the damage numbers so that there would always be at least ONE enemy on the map, and no spores are corrossive now not viral.

I know that spore will detonate but, my question is if i want to recast spores do I need to press 1 to detonate and then press 1 again to cast them, or if I target a enemy and press 1 it will detonate all sopre and after that will cast new ones,

And I know that spores will be corrosive and not viral (miasma will be viral now) I wanted the chance to spread viral and toxic (or if we deal viral to the spores its spreads corr+viral if we deal toxic then its corr+toxic) with the new spores if we add that dmg to it like we do with toxic in the old spores

[Konachibi]

9 minutes ago, Jebbers said:

I'm seeing alot of people who disagree with the viral to corrosive, so uhh hopefully something can be done about that, either just leaving viral as is or allowing an augment choice. Others talk about spores scaling and resetting to be problematic. So I propose that spores can be recasted up to a certain number (casting on enemies already with spores do not stack). The aoe burst .can then be done by holding 1. Makes it less limiting for defense missions. If say around 4 recasts max before an auto MANDITORY aoe pop would be sufficient. In between those cast you hold 1 to have an aoe burst and the counter restarts. At the max of 4 recast, recasting a 5th time causes it to pop again. Its just so that spores wont be hellishly useless during low level gamrplay, and it allows for strategic play, without having saryn players camp.

Well most of the arguement about changing the damage type is that Saryn is meant to be the poisonous frame, the toxic frame, not an acid frame.  Viral, Toxic and Gas, elements that exist naturally in the world, all fit her theme, while Corrosive is viewed more as a man-made substance.  Not all acid is obviously, but it's a lot easier to go outside and find something poisonous than it is to find something that will melt your skin off.   Some natural spores given off by plants can be poisonous to you, but you'll be hard pressed to find any that will dissolve your car during a windy spring day.

Viral worked great with her Spores, as it meant that whenever it affected an enemy, that enemies health dropped by 50%, making it die faster, which makes her Spores spread faster, where as switching it over to corrosive means it'll work ok-ish against Grineer but it'll be pretty poor against Corpus and utterly useless on Infested.  The old Viral Spores worked on everything, now it'll only be good against one enemy type.  It's a stupid change that nobody wanted.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Konachibi

[Ozamchist]

3 minutes ago, Konachibi said:

utterly useless on Infested.

The proc won't be seen as useful (well actually juggernaut) but it's damage will actually be better against the infested.

Corpus don't matter either way (they do have a handful armored units) since Saryn comes with toxin damage which is why she's effective against them.

Edited May 11, 2018 by TermiteFrame

[Knight_Ex]

1 minute ago, Draco_VW said:

I know that spore will detonate but, my question is if i want to recast spores do I need to press 1 to detonate and then press 1 again to cast them, or if I target a enemy and press 1 it will detonate all sopre and after that will cast new ones,

And I know that spores will be corrosive and not viral (miasma will be viral now) I wanted the chance to spread viral and toxic (or if we deal viral to the spores its spreads corr+viral if we deal toxic then its corr+toxic) with the new spores if we add that dmg to it like we do with toxic in the old spores

No when you cast spores again it detonates the current ones, the problem is like I mentioned you cannot stack the damage, once the spores get to a point where they one shot then the damage is reset, you cannot have persist damage for an extended period of time, heres an example, you cast spores on current saryn, you can have those spores active for maybe 4-5 minutes depending on enemy density and mode type, you cast spores on new saryn then once your damage numbers get high enough, which doesn't take long apparently then the damage will reset because all the current enemies get one shot, this will be EXTREMELY frustrating at late game content as you will have to wait for that building gradual scale of damage which can take quite awhile, even with spores having higher damage output the fact the damage itself gets reset is a nerf to the kit and no body can say otherwise because the facts don't lie. 

[Konachibi]

3 minutes ago, TermiteFrame said:

The proc won't be seen as useful (well actually juggernaut) but it's damage will actually be better against the infest.

So then why bother giving it a proc at all?  Why not just make it do unmitigated damage to anything it touches instead of giving it a specific elemental type?  The old Viral proc meant that ridiculously tanky enemies like Bombards and Napalms were actually killable, where as now it'll mean your gun will do like... 1 or 2 more damage than before the proc because armour scaling is and always had been terrible.  I'd rather reduce their health from 10,000 to 5,000 and kill them in a few shots than have to punch through 10,000 health with a gun that hits only a tiny bit harder than it would without the Spore.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Konachibi

[Ozamchist]

3 minutes ago, Konachibi said:

So then why bother giving it a proc at all?  Why not just make it do unmitigated damage to anything it touches instead of giving it a specific elemental type?  The old Viral proc meant that ridiculously tanky enemies like Bombards and Napalms were actually killable, where as now it'll mean your gun will do like... 1 or 2 more damage than before the proc because armour scaling is and always had been terrible.

Which is why she still has a viral proc in her kit and it's now attached to her burst abbility which is where viral procs actually shine. You don't need viral procs for the numerous small fry. And heavy gunners are tankier than the two you mentioned.

Edited May 11, 2018 by TermiteFrame

[Knight_Ex]

2 minutes ago, TermiteFrame said:

Which is why she still has a viral proc in her kit and it's now attached to her burst abbility which is where viral procs actually shine. You don't need viral procs for the numerous small fry. And heavy gunners are tankier than the two you mentioned.

Your forgetting the fact that old Saryn you could stack damage, there was a reason for that viral proc, we don't need anymore damn stripping armor abilities, its just a cop out for getting rid of her viral spreading capabilities.

[Konachibi]

8 minutes ago, TermiteFrame said:

Which is why she still has a viral proc in her kit and it's now attached to her burst abbility which is where viral procs actually shine.

Except that's her 4 ability, the one with the highest cost that you can't always cast, especially around Energy Leech Eximus.  A 25 energy ability that can spread across multiple rooms and drop the health of Eximus and Elite enemies is better than a shorter range one that costs a lot of energy that you likely won't have around those same Eximus units, especially since they're also taking the energy restore away from Toxic Lash.  Also Viral procs can stack (So 10,000 health becomes 5,000 health which then becomes 2,500 health on another proc, and so on), so why not keep Spore as Viral and also make Miasma Viral.  That's a far better synergy for a Spore + Miasma combo when you then factor in the continuous damage of Spore and the additional damage from Miasma against those tougher enemies.  A Corrosive proc wouldn't have any noticable effect

All in all, Saryn shouldn't even do Corrosive damage, she should be just doing Toxic, Viral and Gas.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Konachibi

[Ozamchist]

Just now, Knight_Ex said:

Your forgetting the fact that old Saryn you could stack damage, there was a reason for that viral proc, we don't need anymore damn stripping armor abilities, its just a cop out for getting rid of her viral spreading capabilities.

Good lord next week can't come soon enough so I can show some of you people why your wrong instead of just having to repeat why most if not all the  things are changing are great for her kit.

[Knight_Ex]

Just now, TermiteFrame said:

Good lord next week can't come soon enough so I can show some of you people why your wrong instead of just having to repeat why most if not all the  things are changing are great for her kit.

I can turn that right back at you, if you were any close to an experienced Saryn player as you claim to be then you'd know why having her damage reset during high scaling numbers is a bad idea.

[Ozamchist]

1 minute ago, Konachibi said:

Except that's her 4 ability, the one with the highest cost that you can't always cast, especially around Energy Leech Eximus.  A 25 energy ability that can spread across multiple rooms and drop the health of Eximus and Elite enemies is better than a shorter range one that costs a lot of energy that you likely won't have around those same Eximus units.  Also Viral procs can stack (So 10,000 health becomes 5,000 health which then becomes 2,500 health on another proc, and so on), so why not keep Spore as Viral and also make Miasma Viral.  That's a far better synergy for a Spore + Miasma combo.

All in all, Saryn shouldn't even do Corrosive damage, she should be just doing Toxic, Viral and Gas.

Having both toxin and gas would be redundant. Having the ability to put three procs on an enemy (two of those procs being combined elments) and she's always had corrosive in her kit. Maybe complain more about miasma's cost if you have that much upkeep trouble with saryn.

[MiMiren]

Spore: Viral into Corrosive change is a nerf to the basic combination of 4xCP + viral spore spread. I'm fine with that.

However in the current state I can put stretch on her and then simply keep the spore spreading , thus benefiting from constant viral procs without the need to recast spore. I would like to continue to be able to maintain spore's proccing forever if I am capable of doing so. If you add the infinite scaling then obviously at some point it will reach the end as it will kill enemies faster than they can spawn.

I would prefer if the damage increase was capped that way I can keep the triple spore corrosive proc all the time.

As for infinite scaling of abilities. you should figure out a whole new system that would work for all abilities for all warframes not just give one ability infinite damage increase.

Molt, Toxic Lash: Good changes.

Miasma: The main problem with the current miasma is that its expensive and the damage it deals is not even close to how much damage/viral proc spores can do. In other words its worse than spores. I do not believe the changes to the miasma will make miasma more useful. At the end of the day spore will be more energy efficient which means that miasma will always be pushed out.

Instead of making 2 abilities do the same thing(deal damage) and compete with each other for energy, you should make miasma fill another niche. For example keep the cc and viral proc but instead of it dealing damage, make it restore % of energy it consumed for each enemy hit that had spore on him up  to a cap.

Overall, should be fun.

[Keltik0ne]

1 hour ago, TermiteFrame said:

Maybe read in more detail and take time to think about things before spouting nonsense. It's starting sound like the people who freaked out over her first changes. Don't end up being like them.

If you have used Saryn for a long time, and tapped into what the entirety of what her kit can do, instead of swallowing meta cookie cutter nonsense you would know this is a buff.

Yea, I got 1 thing wrong, something you didn't notice and admitted it.

Feel free to consider what you have written.

[Ozamchist]

1 minute ago, Knight_Ex said:

I can turn that right back at you, if you were any close to an experienced Saryn player as you claim to be then you'd know why having her damage reset during high scaling numbers is a bad idea.

Pfft I was here before her last rework, and people doubted me then too.

[blaes]

21 hours ago, [DE]Aidan said:

Hey Tenno!

Can you please elaborate on your point here? We would love to know what about the change to this part of "Spores" has you thinking this way 🙂

what worries me with spores is 2 points :

1) since it doesn't carry toxin procs anymore, the only way to increase the damage is to wait for it to escalate. since it starts really low, it looks like it'll take quite some time. with toxin procs, we currently can start the ticks at several tens of thousand of damage. so there is that. the increase in time before reaching useful values when facing high level enemies.

 

2) it is capped at 100k damage per tick. against (very) high level enemies, we can currently reach millions of damage per tick with a good amount of work.

 

bonus : since there won't be anything to do with spores except wait for it to escalate, i'm a bit afraid it'll turn into a cast&forget. pop a spore from time to time to make sure it spreads, and that's it.

 

i dont think it'll be the death of saryn though, but i am a bit worried.

[Konachibi]

5 minutes ago, TermiteFrame said:

Having both toxin and gas would be redundant. Having the ability to put three procs on an enemy (two of those procs being combined elments) and she's always had corrosive in her kit. Maybe complain more about miasma's cost if you have that much upkeep trouble with saryn.

Well here's another thing for you, Saryn's passive prolonges the duration of elemental effects on enemies.  For Toxic, that means it does damage for longer before coming off, for Viral it means that enemy has 50% less health for longer, for Corrosive it doesn't do jack-s**t after the initial small reduction in armour so what's the point in making the wibbly-wobbly green fuzz around an enemy last longer?

Edited May 11, 2018 by Konachibi

[Knight_Ex]

Just now, Konachibi said:

Well here's another thing for you, Saryn's passive prolonges the duration of elemental effects on enemies.  For Toxic, that means it does damage for longer before coming off, for Viral it means that enemy has 50% less health for longer, for Corrosive it doesn't do jack-s**t after the initial small reduction in armour so what's the point in making it wibbly-wobbly green fuzz around an enemy last longer?

Viral is just better, arguing viral versus corrossive is a dumb arguement, sure its great for stripping armor, not that we don't have other frames with this capability, or you know corrossive projection.

[-Cpt]

I've already posted here but I want to put in more input. Saryn's spores NEED to be recast-able this will make me very happy with the rework because then I can keep that "infinite scaling" up and going if I play well enough it would be fun, kinda like combo counters, also using an ability a lot is funner then casting it hope it does things and leaving it, if spores is not recast-able it will KILL Saryn you need to realize this please change that I don't care if you revert all the other buffs to her other abilities the main ability that matters for Saryn is her 1 and if that is useless Saryn is USELESS please please consider this I'm very worried for my baby. 

Also I assume you are replacing spores carrying toxic damage with the "infinite scaling" because you said shes not very beginner friendly which is what I like about her, that you must know her kit very well and carry toxin and gas weapons on you if you want her to be at her full potential, I got her at MR 2 back when you could go to any planet if someone takes you there and I farmed her myself. Shes the only frame I use all three of my weapons with depending on how I want to spread her spores at her current state she is very fun and I think if you don't like the "press two and spawn one" play style simply removing her casting one on two will fix that (you already noted that that will be changed but you didn't need to go off and change everything else) I do agree the spores carrying toxic damage is unstable at times and acts funny but it can be very powerful if you know how to use it, I guess there wont be a point of bringing all toxic weapons anymore because her 3 will now do that for you so IMO that makes her less fun. 

All things considered as long as spores are spam-able to keep that damaging scaling I agree with this rework and am looking forward to it please take what I said in consideration and to be honest if this rework kills her It's killing me from continuing to play the game.