A Rework Is In Ordis

[Hecking_Birb]

1 minute ago, VermillionScourge said:

Oh not just Galatine Prime but Galatine Prime with the dynasty heavy blade skin. I'm not kidding the thing is huge.

But you have a point some of the weapons in dynasty warriors are kind of ridiculous.

I, personally, didn't spend much time in Dynasty Warriors. I spent some time in it, but I played a lot of Sengoku Basara, an incredibly similar game, and lemme tell you this:

We will never have a colossal goddamn drill that powers through enemies, we'll never have a throwing ring that knocks everyone up in the air, and we will never get a shotgun that seems to just blow up crowds. We won't. We'll never match the pure unfiltered satisfaction that those games offer.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

16 hours ago, Hecking_Birb said:

What's the fun in everything just dying effortlessly? No reward feels hard-earned if nothing is hard. It can keep being about hordes, but we should really have to actually deal with hordes.

The fun I get from warframe is bending the rules of combat and making frames perform differently.  Warframes enemies are not complex enough nor interesting enough to warrent me wanting to spend extra time to kill them.

If I wanted something like that I could play gears of war's horde mode or halo's firefight.

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

On 2018-05-23 at 12:06 AM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I'm not looking for "skill" in a horde based farming game where efficiency of time spent is highly important.  That doesn't mean i'm fine with "nukes."  I have generally been in favor of DE ramping up player interaction with their kit but still keeping around the same power before the rework.  I feel like DE should cater to those who want a challenge.  But in a seperate section that's on it's own.  Stealth is the only thing im comfortable with saying should be looked into on a broad scale.  mainly making invisibility not as strong.  (I would prefer having units in each faction that can find/detect us while cloaked and mark/decloak us for enemies to attack us.) 

I really liked the way DE handled Volt's AoE. While it's quite powerful, it's damage is dependant on how close enemies were to the cast zone. So it's a nuke, but a close range one, which I feel works out best.

As for the invisibility thing, the whole point of Hyekka and Drahk is actually to detect us while we're invisible. They let their Masters know where we are. Of course, they don't shut off the ability, but the easiest way to remedy that would be to give the Grineer some kind of Nullifier enemy type, which for now, is just the Nox.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

5 minutes ago, (XB1)Graysmog said:

I really liked the way DE handled Volt's AoE. While it's quite powerful, it's damage is dependant on how close enemies were to the cast zone. So it's a nuke, but a close range one, which I feel works out best.

As for the invisibility thing, the whole point of Hyekka and Drahk is actually to detect us while we're invisible. They let their Masters know where we are. Of course, they don't shut off the ability, but the easiest way to remedy that would be to give the Grineer some kind of Nullifier enemy type, which for now, is just the Nox.

Do they actually do that?  I remember it being a thing that was discussed.  Eh.  I wouldn't want to give them a nully.  Either letting the cat yowl at us to shut it off for a period of time or a deployable for the grineer that makes pockets of areas ability disabled.  which we'd have to disable or destroy to deal with.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

Am 23.5.2018 um 06:16 schrieb Hecking_Birb:

TL;DR: The game needs more challenge so that players are actually engaged and require real brain work to succeed, but the game can still keep a lot of its stuff, if in a weaker or stronger state.

Hi.

I agree with everything you say and i love you. Excuse my shameless self-promotion but i guess this recent thread of mine could fit here:

Some energy rework ideas.

[WhiteCr0w]

I completely agree. Great post, great outline, but an enormously tricky and dangerous notion. I mean, people throw around buzz words like "power creep" but it does qualify in at least roughly describing some of the issues with the game. As history has proven, compartmentalized reworks to specific systems can have volatile results and obviously don't change the game very much as a whole. Those reworks are largely a result of their mechanics within and of themselves, and even for DE I'd argue it can be difficult to predict and measure their effects for seemingly distant, unrelated systems. I agree, what the game could benefit from is a complete overhaul, but is it even possible? It would essentially be Warframe 2, and I can't even begin to imagine the amount of time and resources it would require. What kind of content drought would result from it?

It's an interesting notion to entertain, but I'm having difficulty imagining how viable it is to bring into reality.

Edited May 24, 2018 by WhiteCr0w

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 22 Minuten schrieb WhiteCr0w:

I completely agree. Great post, great outline, but an enormously tricky and dangerous notion. I mean, people throw around buzz words like "power creep" but it does qualify in at least roughly describing some of the issues with the game. As history has proven, compartmentalized reworks to specific systems can have volatile results and obviously don't change the game very much as a whole. Those reworks are largely a result of their mechanics within and of themselves, and even for DE I'd argue it can be difficult to predict and measure their effects for seemingly distant, unrelated systems. I agree, what the game could benefit from is a complete overhaul, but is it even possible? It would essentially be Warframe 2, and I can't even begin to imagine the amount of time and resources it would require. What kind of content drought would result from it?

It's an interesting notion to entertain, but I'm having difficulty imagining how viable it is to bring into reality.

Yeah there's risk involved but to me it seems like they're already somewhat testing the waters with ESO and its ult-cooldown. Maybe more "lab"-endgame-missions like that would be a smart way to inch forward and test rebalancing results. Or even a general "hard mode" starmap for volunteers (and i'm not talking about the old "endless scaling counter cheese" hard) without any loot advantage... I know at least i'd be up for it in an instant ;3.

Edited May 24, 2018 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[Nimfacsaj]

I am agree with your concept OP but the majority of the playerbase is more or like casual and those enjoying the mow down enemies mechanisms. Basically this game is created as a hordeshooter game with some hybrid systems so it can be something in the future but the devs never decided really what this game is supposed to be so the challenge need and the difficulity is not in pair in this game at all. The skills also hardly can be measured and a lot of peoples not want too many challenges because currently the game can provide some fast success and easy time waste on relax purposes and if you make it more challenging then the next things could happen.

1. The majority of the playerbase slowly eradicated because they wanted a game where they can have fun and they don't want to be challenged when they have those in real life.

2. The playerbase will be separated and a lot of players would only play lower levels or starchart because beyond that the game is difficult and not worth the effort.

3. The devs realise these two and make a difficulty option so those whom want to play easy-normal-hard modes they can. (The kingpin system is supposed to be this with the option to change the enemies type/level/loot etc). Currently not sure if it is in developement or delayed like many other things.

4. The difficulity increases means population decreases and this result less money spent on this game so in the end this game could easily die and the devs bankrupt since they are owned by a chinese company and somehow the DE needs to repay the money and pay their shareholders so it would not be easy.

Basically this is the major reason why warframe is not a difficult online game and if you check on the net there are very few independent game maker company which makes difficult online games because they need to manage the income otherwise they could not survive so for this simple reason almost all online game is relatively easy. If you want real challenges then you need to choose from the singleplayer games because those traditionaly can be more difficult than multiplayer games.

Edited May 24, 2018 by Nimfacsaj

[Horaciozhao]

I generally just play solo and don't use anything to spam cheese if I need a challenge

[Anarbitrio]

I applaud the OP in echoing a sentiment I could not have put in words as he/she did.

I would LOVE to know that my team turned around a desperate situation by having a Nyx use an ugmented mind control on an Eximus and that let another frame catch a breather and parkour out of gunfire range to revive a teammate who got up and hacked a console thanks to his mods that bought him 3 extra seconds to do so.

While everyone feels like a God now, no one feels like a hero. It's really about finishing content as fast as possible to maximize rates of reinforcement from concurrent schedules.

 

[Azamagon]

I am surprised (happily so) that there has been such a positive reponse to this thread! Yes, we do need an overall powernerf. Both for us and for the enemies.

However, I don't think that would be enough. This would only attempt to keep the numbers and general mechanics in check, which is good and all. But there needs to happen something else too, in particular with the enemies (mild sidetracking, but I feel it is relevant):

• Orthogonal difficulty (I think that's what it's called), meaning, the various enemies are differently difficult. Warframe does this to an extent, but far from enough.
• Clear visual and audial distinctions between enemies (within the same faction). Warframe does this VERY poorly, imo.

I'll go back to those points again later, but first onto a learning PoV -> I have said this in other threads, but I'd like to repeat it once more: Warframe could really learn a LOT in this regard from Brutal Doom (or just plain Doom, but I'm going with that modded version, cuz I find it the most fitting for Warframe's pacing).

The orthogonal difficulty is brilliantly done there, as is their visual and audial distinctions. Let me describe the enemies as much as pops up in my head in regards to important details:

• Zombie Pistolman + Rifleman - Most basic enemies you'll face. They are zombified militaries, sporting grey uniform, green/brown hair and carrying a rifle/pistol, shooting at you with fast-travelling bullet weapons. While they are extremely easy to kill, move at average speeds and their weapons are rather weak, their fast-travelling bullets and quick reaction time means that they are quite likely to hit you if you don't react to them fast. They also shoot in small bursts, then they move again. These are your "artrition" units.
  Special effect: When they are killed, but just barely, while they may be partially mutliated on the floor, they can rarely still fight back with a pistol while laying incapacitated on the ground.
• Zombie Shotgun Dude  - While also a zombified military, it looks very different: Black uniform, shaved heads and carrying a shotgun. These guys are slightly more durable (by a tiny margin), shoot at a low rate of fire, but also packs a bigger punch with its swarm of pellets. Generally these are more deadly than Pistol/Riflemen, but due to having different strengths AND weaknesses over the basic zombie, so they are not just "plain stronger" either.
  Just like the pistol/riflemen, they can also pull out a pistol when downed, just as rarely too.
• Zombie Minigunner - Slightly slower zombie, bald, wearing screaming-red uniforms, holds a minigun in its typical grip, thus easy to distinguish from the other zombies. They are also slightly beefier-looking, and their health is also slightly higher. These guys fight more in a more "turret"-like style: Once they see you, they will keep shooting endlessly, without them moving an inch. If you break their line of sight, they'll stop shooting and attempt to find you again.
  This "turret" behaviour makes them feel vastly different to fight than the other 2 Zombies, which gives them a nice and distinct role.
• Imp - Brown demons, white spikes on their and glowing orange/red eyes. Beefier than all zombies (without being overly tanky). Also, comes with unique alien/demon sounds (whereas the zombies all speak clearly decipherable human language, albeit possessed to sound more evil). Fights by throwing fireballs from a distance, with clear traveltime, or by short leaps and clawing when they get near. This means you want to try and fight them from a longer distance, and while their attacks are far more deadly, they are also much more dodgeable.
  In other words; Compared to a Zombie Rifleman, they are both more difficult (tankier+deadlier) AND easier to deal with (projectilespeed) at the same time.
• Hell Knight - Big greenbrown minotaur-like hellbeasts, their big shape and highly different colours makes them very clearly stick out from Imps. They fight similarly to Imps, but they don't do leapattacks (so they are not as agile), and their projectiles look different (different shape + green colour). They occassionally throw out three fireballs in quick succession. Their health is much higher, and they are much deadlier, but also far easier to hit and feels a bit slower.
• Baron of Hell - Same as Hell Knight, but red in colour, tankier and deadlier. Lookwise, this is the only true pallette-swap enemy in the game. Even being so similar, they still are different in some ways to the Hell Knight; When they are spotted the first time, they let out a sound I'd call "trumpetting bull-noise", giving you a heads up you are about to fight a rather tough basic enemy (it's the most durable basic enemy in the game, actually). Also, they semi-oftenly throw out three balls in a wide spread (think Ivara's Artemis Bow), which has a longer wind-up than their regular bolts. Furthermore, they are prone to pick up nearby explosives barrels (and enemies, if they start in-fighting!) and throw them at you!
  So basicly, while they definitely feel stronger, they also sometimes fight more slowly/differently.
• Pinky - A pink demon with a VERY distinct look and with decent amount of health (a bit more than Imps). Runs very fast up to you in a somewhat straight line and tries to bite you. Basicly your charging melee unit. When it spots you the first time, it has a very distinct noise it makes (think "demonic dog growl"), giving you a hint that you are now being chased relentlessly. On certain near-death-moments (i.e. you cut off a limb etc), it has a chance to either just stand and bleed out, or to enrage, causing it to run EVEN FASTER at you (but bleeds out by itself after a while if you don't kill it in time). Sometimes they come in invisible versions, but can still be spotted by their glowing eyes.
• Lost Soul - Basicly, a floating burning skull (so now the Z-axis matters too!). When they see you and have locked on to you, they charge at you in a straight line, trying to collide with you to hurt you. Dodging them thus causes them to charge pasts you for quite a distance, giving them a very distinct feel. Thus despite being another pure-melee unit it feels VASTLY different from the Pinky.
• Cacodemon - Big, flying, red and round enemy with a single eye and a massive mouth. Quite durable too, slightly more than the Pinky. Shoots pink energyballs at you and, if they get close, bites you RAPIDLY and PAINFULLY. Tends to flank you, and tries to avoid projectiles you shoot at it (especially rockets).
• Pain Elemental - Lookwise and tankiness-wise quite similar to the Cacodemon, but with clear differences: Shoots Lost Souls at you... definitely living up to its Pain (in the rear) name. Like many other enemies, it has its own unique sounds, most distinguishable when it is hurt, making it clear when you are hitting it. Upon death, it spawn 3 Lost Souls too. Super-high priority if you don't like fighting lots and lots of Lost Souls that is.
• Arachnotron - Think mechanical metal spider with a brown brain on top. Makes very distinct mechanical walking noises and is quite big in size, specially HORIZONTALLY (due to its mechanical construct), making it quite the easy target. Decently tanky though. Fights like the Minigunner (the same turret behaviour), yet still has differences here as well: Its plasmashots deal quite a lot more damage and is 100% accurate, BUT has a MUCH slower projectile traveltime. So, even when compared to the Zombie Minigunner (its most similar unit) it still feels very different.
• Revenant - Tall and slim skeletal figures that walk rather fast and jarringly. Shoots homing missiles at you (urgh), which you can "dodge" by breaking line of sight or simply "dancing" it away (not recommended when facing more than one Revenant). Up close they punch you, REAL HARD. When infighting, can also grab enemies (most often Imps, for some reason), slam them to the ground a couple of times (looks hilarious , actually!), then throws it at you (very deadly, do NOT get hit by it). Very annoying and high priority enemy if you can't easily break their line of sight.
• Mancubus - Big, slow, fat and fleshy blobs. Decently tanky, but are also very easy to stunlock (making rapidfire weapons awesome to keep them at bay if you can't "nuke" them with powerful guns). These guys move very, very slowly. And they have huge flamecannons in place of their arms. They shoot with both of these are the same time, but not just straight at you, but rather in distinct alternating patterns (meaning you can't dodge them the same way as other projectileshooters), and always in bursts of 3 (for a total of 6 projectiles). If you get close, they use them as extremely deadly flamethrowers.
  While they are easy to deal with once you engage them, leaving a Mancubus within their fighting range and ignoring it means you are in for some serious hurt. Due to this and their very slow movement, they are often easy to deal with by running away from them and taking out faster threats first, then deal with the Mancubi later, very easily so by letting them slowly appear around the corner, then spraying them to death.
• Archvile - Yellow-ish, tall and malnourished-looking demon. Moves fast, is surprisingly very tanky and has a very low chance to be pain-stunned (i.e. hard to CC). Has 2 means of fighting with the player: 1) Summons a pillar of flame underneath the player, which then explodes (and hurts like crazy). Good thing is that it takes a long time to perform and is interrupted if you break line of sight. And 2) Resurrects lesser enemies (including Hell Knights) ... Yikes!
  Yeah, basicly a miniboss with an extremely high priority to kill. Needs some powerful guns and/or good fighting mobility.
• Cyberdemon - A miniboss, for real. Supertanky, superbig, fast and can kill you superduperfast? Shoots rockets which are definitely dodgeable. Stomps you instantly to death if you get close and don't escape quick enough.
  Funnily enough, while one might think these guys are the highest priority to deal with, I see it the opposite way: Due to in-fighting, it is your best buddy to leave at last, as it can kill its own minions quite quickly for you!

Ok... that was a lot to say (and there are still more units!), yet there is a LOT more to say about them, and a lot more to distinguish from each enemy too. But the point is; Each enemy feels VERY different, and LOOKS very different (not just in colours, but in silhouette and sizes too, which is important!).

In Warframe though?

Can you, with a quick glance, tell the difference between a Lancer, Elite Lancer, Trooper, Bombard and a Napalm? Especially from a bit of a distance and/or if the area is not lit up very well, without reading the unit-name?
I can't, despite playing this game for 4000 hours! Their silhouettes are just FAR too similar. Colours and mild changes (like what weapons they hold) are NOT enough imo.

With some enemies, if you get a bit closer, you can tell of some visual silhouette-differences, like the Nox and Ghouls (who all at least behave a bit (a BIT) differently than other Grineer), likewise the Drakh Masters and Scorpions.

Then there are some very distinct ones (thankfully): Manics and Rollers (Rollers of all things huh?). Those are hard NOT to spot (and even then, Manics can blend in quite well in the midst of chaos!).

But seriously, most of the "basic units"? Besides having ranged contra melee styles, I can't tell much different between them, really, at least not quickly. But in Brutal Doom, I can tell INSTANTLY, even from very far away and/or in darker areas! A lot of the various enemies in Warframe lack some... "character" so to speak. If nothing else, high-prio enemies like Bombards and Napalms REALLY need new looks (likewise, either the Ballista or Heavy Gunner could need a change too, who look far too similar from afar as well)!

I think DE really ought to spend more time on making existing enemies feel and look more different. I think that, along with toning down the overall power of us (and the enemies) would go a LONG way into making the game have a lot more interesting action!

Edited June 5, 2018 by Azamagon

[Hecking_Birb]

11 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

The fun I get from warframe is bending the rules of combat and making frames perform differently.  Warframes enemies are not complex enough nor interesting enough to warrent me wanting to spend extra time to kill them.

If I wanted something like that I could play gears of war's horde mode or halo's firefight.

Yeah, AI does need to be made more interesting. I think someone brought that up already...

[Hecking_Birb]

10 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Do they actually do that?  I remember it being a thing that was discussed.  Eh.  I wouldn't want to give them a nully.  Either letting the cat yowl at us to shut it off for a period of time or a deployable for the grineer that makes pockets of areas ability disabled.  which we'd have to disable or destroy to deal with.

Yeah, giving them a nully would just be too boring. Corpus have nullifiers, Infested have Ancient Disruptors (which, on top of stealing energy, will actually make nearby infested stronger against abilities), so the Grineer should have something unique to them,

[Hecking_Birb]

10 hours ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

Hi.

I agree with everything you say and i love you. Excuse my shameless self-promotion but i guess this recent thread of mine could fit here:

Some energy rework ideas.

Hey, no worries about the self-promotion man. Someone already did that before, and since in both cases it's contributing to the discussion, I don't mind 🙂

[Hecking_Birb]

10 hours ago, WhiteCr0w said:

I completely agree. Great post, great outline, but an enormously tricky and dangerous notion. I mean, people throw around buzz words like "power creep" but it does qualify in at least roughly describing some of the issues with the game. As history has proven, compartmentalized reworks to specific systems can have volatile results and obviously don't change the game very much as a whole. Those reworks are largely a result of their mechanics within and of themselves, and even for DE I'd argue it can be difficult to predict and measure their effects for seemingly distant, unrelated systems. I agree, what the game could benefit from is a complete overhaul, but is it even possible? It would essentially be Warframe 2, and I can't even begin to imagine the amount of time and resources it would require. What kind of content drought would result from it?

It's an interesting notion to entertain, but I'm having difficulty imagining how viable it is to bring into reality.

I'm not entirely sure what the first half of that paragraph is about, but I think you're saying "changes can affect things they weren't supposed to affect", which would be valid if I weren't talking about an overhaul bigger than Warframe's ever seen.

As for the content drought, it wouldn't really feel like a drought. We'd have to use the things that we never use, which will feel so new to us.

And yeah, the resources required is spooky, but if DE keeps ignoring the most underlying and fundamental issues, the holes in the game that's leaking players will only grow.

[Hecking_Birb]

10 hours ago, Nimfacsaj said:

I am agree with your concept OP but the majority of the playerbase is more or like casual and those enjoying the mow down enemies mechanisms. Basically this game is created as a hordeshooter game with some hybrid systems so it can be something in the future but the devs never decided really what this game is supposed to be so the challenge need and the difficulity is not in pair in this game at all. The skills also hardly can be measured and a lot of peoples not want too many challenges because currently the game can provide some fast success and easy time waste on relax purposes and if you make it more challenging then the next things could happen.

1. The majority of the playerbase slowly eradicated because they wanted a game where they can have fun and they don't want to be challenged when they have those in real life.

2. The playerbase will be separated and a lot of players would only play lower levels or starchart because beyond that the game is difficult and not worth the effort.

3. The devs realise these two and make a difficulty option so those whom want to play easy-normal-hard modes they can. (The kingpin system is supposed to be this with the option to change the enemies type/level/loot etc). Currently not sure if it is in developement or delayed like many other things.

4. The difficulity increases means population decreases and this result less money spent on this game so in the end this game could easily die and the devs bankrupt since they are owned by a chinese company and somehow the DE needs to repay the money and pay their shareholders so it would not be easy.

Basically this is the major reason why warframe is not a difficult online game and if you check on the net there are very few independent game maker company which makes difficult online games because they need to manage the income otherwise they could not survive so for this simple reason almost all online game is relatively easy. If you want real challenges then you need to choose from the singleplayer games because those traditionaly can be more difficult than multiplayer games.

I don't know if you're making a good or bad point, this post is lacking the needed punctuation.

[Hecking_Birb]

8 hours ago, Horaciozhao said:

I generally just play solo and don't use anything to spam cheese if I need a challenge

Valid. You do what you like, famioli. Even you, though, would be affected, because what I'm suggesting doesn't just bring in difficulty. It brings in new layers of tactics that would make combat feel more personal and interactive.

[Daskrieg]

On 2018-05-22 at 9:34 PM, Hecking_Birb said:

You know what Dynasty Warriors has that Warframe doesn't? Men with giant swords knocking a bunch of weak soldiers around like plush toys, racking up massive and satisfying combos and seeing glorious visual effects. Warframe just has numbers. Numbers are great, but visual effects are better.

galatine prime and war would like to say hello, that is of course unless you are talking about that pirate looking eyepatch dude (forgot his name but he was quite the powerhouse in that game) that looks like he came out of the berserk anime as if mocking guts to say "now this is a big *&$ sword boy, take notes" then yes we might be missing the massive 2h swords we all played that game for, that said the sword gan ning had while being a one hander was also decent in size.

Edited May 25, 2018 by Daskrieg

[Hecking_Birb]

8 hours ago, Anarbitrio said:

I applaud the OP in echoing a sentiment I could not have put in words as he/she did.

I would LOVE to know that my team turned around a desperate situation by having a Nyx use an ugmented mind control on an Eximus and that let another frame catch a breather and parkour out of gunfire range to revive a teammate who got up and hacked a console thanks to his mods that bought him 3 extra seconds to do so.

While everyone feels like a God now, no one feels like a hero. It's really about finishing content as fast as possible to maximize rates of reinforcement from concurrent schedules.

 

You also said it well, fam. Sounds like an event worthy of a cinematic cutscene.

[Hecking_Birb]

Just now, Daskrieg said:

galatine prime and war would like to say hello, that is of course unless you atre talking about that pirate looking eyepatch dude that looks like he came out of the berserk anime as if mocking guts to say "now this is a big *&$ sword boy, take notes" then yes we might be missing the massive 2h swords we all played that game for, that said the sword gan ning had while being a one hander was also decent in size.

WE NEED BIGGER SWORDS AND MORE SPECIAL EFFECTS WOO LET'S COPY DYNASTY WARRIORS

let's stop talking about that game now

[Hecking_Birb]

4 hours ago, Azamagon said:

I am surprised (happily so) that there has been such a positive reponse to this thread! Yes, we do need an overall powernerf. Both for us and for the enemies.

I'm just quoting this part of the comment since it's so long and detailed, but I do agree with what you bring to the table. Not once did it occur to me that we need more uniquely-designed yet stylistically-similar enemies, but that would absolutely make the game more interesting.

[Goodwill]

Just want to add my opinion... and I can see this being unpopular... But I much preferred the old parkour system. Where you actually had to work for your speed and maneuverability. You had to be creative in learning how to reach places back when seemingly useless abilities (Excal's Super Jump, Vauban's Bounce and Vortex) could get you to places that would otherwise be difficult. Now all that can be done with bullet jumping. Personally, I think they should tone down the effectiveness of bullet jumping or God save me from the masses... bring back the stamina bar.

[Hecking_Birb]

1 minute ago, Goodwill said:

Just want to add my opinion... and I can see this being unpopular... But I much preferred the old parkour system. Where you actually had to work for your speed and maneuverability. You had to be creative in learning how to reach places back when seemingly useless abilities (Excal's Super Jump, Vauban's Bounce and Vortex) could get you to places that would otherwise be difficult. Now all that can be done with bullet jumping. Personally, I think they should tone down the effectiveness of bullet jumping or God save me from the masses... bring back the stamina bar.

It sounds good, like it would actually slow us down, as well as make Vauban's Bounce actually do anything helpful. I wasn't playing back when stamina was a thing, so I can't speak from experience, but I certainly agree that bullet jumping is way too damn good. If I wanna get from point A to point B really fast, it's always bullet jump - double jump - roll - slide - repeat, and that's boring.

[Goodwill]

5 minutes ago, Hecking_Birb said:

It sounds good, like it would actually slow us down, as well as make Vauban's Bounce actually do anything helpful. I wasn't playing back when stamina was a thing, so I can't speak from experience, but I certainly agree that bullet jumping is way too damn good. If I wanna get from point A to point B really fast, it's always bullet jump - double jump - roll - slide - repeat, and that's boring.

Pretty much what the system is now. You know the obstacle runs in the void? They were a hell lot more fun back in Parkour 1.0. Now as you said, you can pretty much bullet jump to the end. Also it would make speedy frames like Volt or Zephyr seems a bit more appealing as well. Flight is pretty useless indoors when you have a nice middle ground called Bullet Jumping.

[Hecking_Birb]

1 minute ago, Goodwill said:

Pretty much what the system is now. You know the obstacle runs in the void? They were a hell lot more fun back in Parkour 1.0. Now as you said, you can pretty much bullet jump to the end. Also it would make speedy frames like Volt or Zephyr seems a bit more appealing as well. Flight is pretty useless indoors when you have a nice middle ground called Bullet Jumping.

Y'know what, that actually explains some things. Hunh.

Well, yeah, I think stamina should be a thing again. Was it removed just because "wah wah it's too hard wah wah", or were there legitimate concerns backing it?