[22.20.5] Spores Revisited Feedback MEGATHREAD

[Traumtulpe]

One of the valid criticisms is that the (in my opinion) most effective way to play Saryn involves frequent casting of Miasma. I don't personally see a problem with this though, on the one hand you can choose to play differently and still be strong (also be more durable), and on the other you don't complain that Atlas casts Landslide a lot. Still trying different variations of mods, and so far it seems casting Miasma every 15 seconds might be optimal. Regardless, you still jump around, dodge bullets, drop Molt, recast Spores, activate Zenurik and shoot enemies in between.

Casters gonna cast.

Now if someone is interested in feedback on Miasma: Supposedly enemies are unavailable to Desecrate when killed by Miasma. That's a minor nuisance.

[(PSN)OLLXK]

I honestly really don't like the rework not because its weaker but because it feels incredibly unrewarding. I used to use Saryn mostly vs the corpus/corrupted along with cc weapons because you could mod weapons to spread your damage across what was on screen and basically fight the whole map chipping away at what was in front of you aggressively enough. It was also really satisfying doing stuff like gas lanka mega kills when i wanted a change of pace.

Honestly don't think I'll play new saryn much because the core of her kit new spores either seems to turn into a spamfest with her 4th or actively punishes you for successfully killing things. The rate of decay on new spores honestly makes me just not want to play her because I can lose 5 minutes buildup in the space of 10 seconds and that is honestly just not fun if it isn't something I have control over which I don't feel I do. Actually thats the biggest issue I have with the rework I feel like I have less control over how powerful she is now than I did before the rework. 

Just wanted to give feedback before I took a hiatus until that godawful UI is either reverted or changed. 

[(PSN)Radehx]

I feel like the decay complaints aren't all that warranted, similar to the complaints of Nidus stack building. You just have to figure out how to ramp it up quickly.

I love Saryn now and just put rad damage on my guns/weapons. This way, enemies end up helping me to spread spores. Makes it super easy to ramp up damage. Molt is great too once you figure out how to place it correctly to get the most out of it. 

She can strip armor, does insane DoT (if you set her up correctly!!) and has effective CC allowing her to solo post-Sortie level enemies no problem. You have to work a bit more for it now, but that's fine imo given few (if any) other frames can outdamage her. Just focus on figuring out how to ramp damage back up quickly when building her. Don't totally neglect duration! 

Also, you don't have to mindlessly spam Miasma all the time! It's useful if you cover a larger area and enemies are spread out...but if they're clustered together, save the energy and fire at the mob with your gun or melee them. 

Edited June 6, 2018 by (PS4)Radehx

[(PSN)JCM_Unlimited]

After playing this revisit for a solid 18 hours I can honestly say that her ramp now is really slow BUT what really kills her is the drain on the decay. Regardless of how slow the ramp is, yes I know you can alleviate it to a degree by using power strength, it wouldn't be nearly as painful if you didn't take time building for the majority of a mission just to have it all gone in a matter of seconds and needing to restart.

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

5 hours ago, (PS4)Radehx said:

I feel like the decay complaints aren't all that warranted, similar to the complaints of Nidus stack building. You just have to figure out how to ramp it up quickly.

I love Saryn now and just put rad damage on my guns/weapons. This way, enemies end up helping me to spread spores. Makes it super easy to ramp up damage. Molt is great too once you figure out how to place it correctly to get the most out of it. 

She can strip armor, does insane DoT (if you set her up correctly!!) and has effective CC allowing her to solo post-Sortie level enemies no problem. You have to work a bit more for it now, but that's fine imo given few (if any) other frames can outdamage her. Just focus on figuring out how to ramp damage back up quickly when building her. Don't totally neglect duration! 

Also, you don't have to mindlessly spam Miasma all the time! It's useful if you cover a larger area and enemies are spread out...but if they're clustered together, save the energy and fire at the mob with your gun or melee them. 

Nidus is built to get his stacks. His kit doesn't have dead ends. It would be a different story if he lost a stack every time he killed something. I don't see any problem with nidus personally. 

That's where saryn is different from nidus. She has those dead ends in her kit. I've built against the decay and it might as well just reset even then because it drains so fast. 

So in my eyes, either they need to remove the decay and just let it reset every time it's not in an enemy, or actually gvee it more of a time to decay. 

It's legitimate feedback and criticism of a system that doesn't work. 

[(PSN)Radehx]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Kairu_Aname said:

Nidus is built to get his stacks. His kit doesn't have dead ends. It would be a different story if he lost a stack every time he killed something. I don't see any problem with nidus personally. 

That's where saryn is different from nidus. She has those dead ends in her kit. I've built against the decay and it might as well just reset even then because it drains so fast. 

So in my eyes, either they need to remove the decay and just let it reset every time it's not in an enemy, or actually gvee it more of a time to decay. 

It's legitimate feedback and criticism of a system that doesn't work. 

2

The net result is essentially the same, both frames have to "work" to keep up damage. 

Imo the way to play Saryn isn't the fight decay (too much), what matters is that you rebuild your stack quickly...and there are enough creative synergies around to do that successfully. For example, you could easily use a rad weapon and have enemies that don't instantly die help you spread spores. 

I run with a rad/viral Mara Detron for example and having enemies help you spread spores is amazing. The decay is a way to balance her damage, but you can work around it and she's still insanely powerful. I can think of only Banshee/Octavia who can outdamage her consistently. And that's in her current "nerfed" form. 

I ran a few hours of MOT with her last night...damage is totally fine if you adapt. Don't totally nuke duration for example. I see too many run with negative duration. Your weapons should focus on spreading spores, yet somehow, I still see too many people focusing on weapon damage over spreading spores. There are super easy ways to keep spore damage up. If I can take her into an almost 3hr MOT run, her damage is totally fine imo. There are plenty of (damage!!) frames she beats already. 

Imo people just need to get a bit more creative when it comes to spreading spores. 

Edited June 6, 2018 by (PS4)Radehx

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

First, Nidus doesn't have to work to get stacks. His stacks don't just disappear when he doesn't do anything. He really doesn't have to work hard at all. He's a cohesive frame built around a mechanic and built around it well.

Second we aren't talking about saryn's damage. Her damage isn't the issue, it's the mechanics for delivering that damage that is the issue. So apparently you have issues reading posts as well. People complain not because something is fine, but because something needs work. It's not because people are not creative, It's BECAUSE the mechanic is an issue that rears its head often enough to BE an issue. 

I've seen the problem firsthand when I played with a bunch of different builds and took her into the mode she was designed around. Only a few builds really function well, while the others fall off.

 

This is pigeonholing, and I don't like it. 

You can personally like a frame but not addressing the issues that frame has is not going to help that frame overall

[(PSN)Radehx]

23 minutes ago, (PS4)Kairu_Aname said:

First, Nidus doesn't have to work to get stacks. His stacks don't just disappear when he doesn't do anything. He really doesn't have to work hard at all. He's a cohesive frame built around a mechanic and built around it well.

Second we aren't talking about saryn's damage. Her damage isn't the issue, it's the mechanics for delivering that damage that is the issue. So apparently you have issues reading posts as well. People complain not because something is fine, but because something needs work. It's not because people are not creative, It's BECAUSE the mechanic is an issue that rears its head often enough to BE an issue. 

I've seen the problem firsthand when I played with a bunch of different builds and took her into the mode she was designed around. Only a few builds really function well, while the others fall off.

 

This is pigeonholing, and I don't like it. 

You can personally like a frame but not addressing the issues that frame has is not going to help that frame overall

But the mechanic is fine, it's not hard to keep up damage appropriate for the level you play at. You don't need your spore damage at 1k against lvl10 enemies. And at higher levels, she has no problem dishing out damage IF you build her correctly and synergize her with the right weapons. 

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)Radehx said:

But the mechanic is fine, it's not hard to keep up damage appropriate for the level you play at. You don't need your spore damage at 1k against lvl10 enemies. And at higher levels, she has no problem dishing out damage IF you build her correctly and synergize her with the right weapons. 

You're not reading these are you? I'll write it again so you can read it again. We're not talking about her damage, the damage is fine. We're talking about the mechanical delivery of that damage. The mechanics of the ability. Go read a few pages back and you'll see that the majority of us discard the damage part of the frame because it's non-relevant. The issue is the pigeonholing that this is doing to the frame and the general bad feeling you get from just not having a consistent ability

[Cibyllae]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Kairu_Aname said:

We're talking about the mechanical delivery of that damage. The mechanics of the ability. Go read a few pages back and you'll see that the majority of us discard the damage part of the frame because it's non-relevant. The issue is the pigeonholing that this is doing to the frame and the general bad feeling you get from just not having a consistent ability

The issue here is that any proposed change to making this ability more consistent will result in an increase to Saryn's damage. They would have to decrease the damage numbers of her spores/ramp if they want to make this ability more consistent.

[MasaJin]

27 minutes ago, Cibyllae said:

The issue here is that any proposed change to making this ability more consistent will result in an increase to Saryn's damage. They would have to decrease the damage numbers of her spores/ramp if they want to make this ability more consistent.

Im sure people would be ok with that before the rework spores by themselves were not killers anyway

[Cibyllae]

2 minutes ago, MasaJin said:

31 minutes ago, Cibyllae said:

The issue here is that any proposed change to making this ability more consistent will result in an increase to Saryn's damage. They would have to decrease the damage numbers of her spores/ramp if they want to make this ability more consistent.

Im sure people would be ok with that before the rework spores by themselves were not killers anyway

I think people would start complaining that they wouldn't be able to get above 500 on the spore counter in a 20 minute mission.

[(PSN)AllOrNothinDays]

I think what you have to do to keep spores going up along with with the people playing around you, it has no synergy. I don't like that when I'm playing Saryn I often stop myself from killing things because I'm trying to micromanage other stuff and that just doesn't work in this game. When I'm all on my lonesome? I enjoy it. Saryn just doesn't play well with others. 

[MasaJin]

32 minutes ago, Cibyllae said:

I think people would start complaining that they wouldn't be able to get above 500 on the spore counter in a 20 minute mission.

Why would you need that much we carry weapons for a reason just let spores be a armor striper 

[(PSN)Radehx]

38 minutes ago, (PS4)AllOrNothinDays said:

I think what you have to do to keep spores going up along with with the people playing around you, it has no synergy. I don't like that when I'm playing Saryn I often stop myself from killing things because I'm trying to micromanage other stuff and that just doesn't work in this game. When I'm all on my lonesome? I enjoy it. Saryn just doesn't play well with others. 

I'm not sure what you mean by "no synergy" for other team mates. I strip armor and halve health for all enemies. That's a massive debuff making everyone's life much easier and is no different than Banshee giving them a damage boost.

[Reclaimer2448]

I would definitely be okay with less damage if it meant more spread. Also, how do I do this quote thingy people are doing that has boxes around stuff people said?

[(PSN)BossNotACapo]

24 minutes ago, Reclaimer2448 said:

I would definitely be okay with less damage if it meant more spread. Also, how do I do this quote thingy people are doing that has boxes around stuff people said?

Hit the quote prompt under the comment that you want to quote.

[(PSN)AllOrNothinDays]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Radehx said:

I'm not sure what you mean by "no synergy" for other team mates. I strip armor and halve health for all enemies. That's a massive debuff making everyone's life much easier and is no different than Banshee giving them a damage boost.

My whole goal is to keep spores going and it is difficult to do when you're not alone. It's just a weird change for me.

[(PSN)Radehx]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)AllOrNothinDays said:

My whole goal is to keep spores going and it is difficult to do when you're not alone. It's just a weird change for me.

If you fit a radiation status weapon, enemies will help you spreading spores. Works well 😉

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

38 minutes ago, (PS4)Radehx said:

If you fit a radiation status weapon, enemies will help you spreading spores. Works well 😉

That's one thing I can't agree on. Radiation makes them see everything as an enemy. In a game where you generally want things to die, why would I not just kill that one enemy and spread the spores anyway. 

 right weapon for the right job, and the job she's made for is killing. 

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

For reference, these are my notes and suggested changes. Yes these were across quite a few different saryn builds and tested in ESO(Elite Sanctuary Onslaught). The mode she was nerfed around.

   •Energy hungry. Could not cast many abilities despite having zenurik active 90% of the time(yes 90% of the time). Only functions well with max efficiency. Maybe if you have arcane energize, but I'm not lucky enough to even have the first one. 

   •no reward for spreading spores. Toxic lash gave energy back for popping spores on 2.0 saryn because she was so energy hungry. 3.0 and on she's far too energy hungry unless you have max efficiency. 

   •due to not getting energy back she can't cast as often as she would need. Technically less survivability due to not having the energy to cast regen molt. 

   ☆fix. Add energy refund on personal spore spread with toxic lash. 

   •inconsistent spread of spores. Spores NEEDS to have spread on tick death. Many times I'll be heading to an enemy and they'll die because I couldn't shoot or melee them before spores killed them(no spread). {Not entirely relevant here but enemies still spawn inside walls. Spores was on them but I couldn't cast miasma on most builds of saryn. Couldn't melee them through walls so they didn't die from anything but spores.(No spread)}

   ☆fix. Add spore spread on any death regardless of circumstances. Enemies killed by teammates do not spread spores unless they hit spores(Tested in simulacrum consistently). Change damage scaling mechanic to only apply built up damage to spores spread by saryn herself(fixes many issues that DE is worried about for some stupid reason and makes saryn consistent).

   •spores also might as well just reset entirely between infections. The decay is far too fast even modding against it. 

   ☆fix. Extend spore decay because it might as well just reset otherwise even when built for it. 

   •upon death, Saryn's spores clear from all enemies and damage is reset. This just doesn't feel good. 

   ☆fix. Keep spores active, but reset damage. This I don't mind, but omg when spores just disappear? that just feels bad.

[(PSN)Radehx]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)Kairu_Aname said:

That's one thing I can't agree on. Radiation makes them see everything as an enemy. In a game where you generally want things to die, why would I not just kill that one enemy and spread the spores anyway. 

 right weapon for the right job, and the job she's made for is killing. 

Because it ramps up damage quicker than you can on your own...which ultimately nets faster killing. It's a way to overcome decay fast. 

She's a super energy efficient frame too because you really don't have to spazz out and spam her abilities.

Edited June 6, 2018 by (PS4)Radehx

[Reclaimer2448]

19 minutes ago, (PS4)Kairu_Aname said:

That's one thing I can't agree on. Radiation makes them see everything as an enemy. In a game where you generally want things to die, why would I not just kill that one enemy and spread the spores anyway. 

 right weapon for the right job, and the job she's made for is killing. 

I have an alternative solution to get straight to murder. What I do is a viral build on my Ignis Wraith and constantly have Toxic Lash active. I only have to kill enemies half of the way for they toxin procs to finish them off, and that's without Spores on them. I have 199% power strength, so that helps too. I also find having a Rage mod to be quite sufficient to gain all the power I need, until I run into those pesky Parasitics. I do hope you can find similar results.

[SyBuhr]

19 hours ago, Acos said:

You kind of come off as condescending; not sure if that is intentional. Let me clarify a few things I think you're missing about what I've said: 

When I say people are too focused on spores I mean people are too focused on having 100% spore uptime management. It isn't necessary, and Saryns design doesn't necessitate you doing this. It is, I felt, very easy to simpley cast Spore on an enemy, and then cast Miasma. Whatever your spore damage winds up being or however far it spreads it is still going to be powerful enough that it is killing the entire room map world. The damage ramps up dramatically in the beginning before evening out which means that even if the spores do drop off its a very simple Spore > Miasma process to get the murder-train rolling again. 

As for point two... I didn't propose a fix. I'm absolutely against Miasma spam. I think current Saryn is a brain-dead press 4 to win, and am very much against that as I think it is damaging for the health of the game as a whole. 

As for point three: My point is that Saryn can "work" in the low level Star Chart just fine by spamming Miasma. That doesn't mean I think that type of gameplay is good, but that she is technically viable in that she is able to contribute to killing enemies with her powers without needing to bother with her spore mechanic in lower level missions. At the same time, I am a veteran player who is more concerned with how frames work at their full potential, so I'd prefer to leave the conversation about low-level start chart progression to people who are more informed/inclined to talk about it; I don't personally spend enough time with that aspect of this game anymore to want to discuss it in depth and I'm not the right person to be having that conversation. 

Point 4: Spreading spores is stupidly easy, and its' not a big deal if they fall off because it's very easy to start them up again. This is ultimately my entire argument. Saryns entire gameplay right now is press 1, and then press 4 a whole bunch. It's stupidly powerful, it's stupidly easy, it's boring to play and its' boring to play with anyone using it. It feels like DE took everything they learned about power development over the last 5 years and just chucked it out the window. I have never been in favor of 'press 4 to win' builds and I can't figure out how they still manage to accidentally make them when they've expressed being against that style of play for so long. 

That's sort of the down-side to text-based communications, clarity of the context is lost. To be really clear: I am not as smart as I appear on the internet. I think you might be reading too much of what I type as a projected emotion. I do appreciate and value the time you (and others take) to write up responses, and it might not always seem that way but it is a fact.

To be fair on your part, I've been lurking and posting in this thread since the re-work began, so I've seen a lot of the same thing repeated and rehashed (myself included in that regard). It is slightly irritating, because then there is no forward moving conjecture, other than one side saying "Yes" and the other side saying "No", with the few in the middle that say "Maybe" followed by nothing else offered to help facilitate good or better design choices or ideas. I love that Pablo took the Frame in a different direction, I just personally do not feel that it has worked out the way I personally would have liked it to. To be blunt about it, I would have preferred an entire over-haul of her kit over what we've received, despite the fact that Saryn really did not need these changes when you have frames like Nyx who are in cold-storage.

To your first point now, you are correct; It absolutely isn't necessary to have 100% up-time. However, when we consider that most Saryn Mains from her 2.0 days were capable of that, and did so without cheesing the Molt, it should be somewhat expected. That was the appeal, having that Viral Debuff 100% of the time, offering something nothing else could offer at that scale. Saryn's current design doesn't necessitate that now, and you are correct in saying that. However, when we look at what we moved away from, it becomes clear why it isn't panning over so well with others, and why there is a debate about it. Again, I love Damage, I think she has great Damage potential now. I just don't believe it was the step in the right direction for her over-all as a design choice, but you are most certainly welcome to hold otherwise.

As for your second point, there is a reason I did put "fix" in, well... Quotes. Your statement on keeping spores going revolves around Miasma spam (which we both agree, is a bad design choice). This is a "Fix" to the energy hunger issues now present with the removal of Energy regen from Toxic Lash rewarding players for actually being active. It is more efficient to spam Miasma, which was the move-away during her 2.0 time. This is why I stated that it also felt like an over-sight Design-wise, and this is all at no slight to you.

Your third point has me curious, you state that Saryn " " works" " in low-level, just by spamming Miasma (which we both agree, is a bad design choice). She can be viable with spamming, she was in her 1.0 time frame. That doesn't mean it is efficient or good, and it also removes the synergies she has with Toxic Lash and Miasma with her spores. Essentially, three of her abilities at low-levels become utterly atrocious, because they really weren't balanced or planned with those in mind. Also bear in mind that, during the levelling process, you won't have Miasma for a brief period (or at length, depending on how well or poorly a player levels). This makes it almost a chore to use her until that point, and even then, why bother? It then ultimately becomes net-loss of practically 65% or more of the game's total content, and I can't very well justify the rework in that regard specifically. I could argue that the Frame has become more of an end-game frame now than ever before, and that is technically a positive and true thing; Saryn is definitely geared towards the end-game (or certain aspects there-of), and many players aren't opposed to having more frames that can handle that sort of thing.

Also, I think you humble yourself too much; I think you can (and potentially should) contribute to the discussion regarding star-chart, especially considering you have the potential and the ability to offer insight as a player. Of course, you don't have to, but I think it would be incredibly healthy. What is happening in this thread is ultimately beneficial for the team and player-base at large once you remove comments such as "Hate it" or "Love it", with no additional exposition on those stances.

Point 4 is a contention with me as well. Spores have always been easy to spread, but they are more difficult now with the removal of their spread-on-death mechanic, as well as the fact that allies actually have to shoot the spores, and not just kill enemies (from what I've tested). When she ramps up, you have a point that she can become boring to play. I don't believe we actually disagree on anything else. I personally feel there is a lot more micromanagement and meta-play involved now, which I feel isn't particularly healthy, paired with the fact that multiple Saryns will be counter-productive to the Team's over-all efficiency, making PUGs god-awful. Indeed, she becomes very boring when the spawns are high, and the map allows tight groupings to facilitate those spawns, but she becomes more of a pain in open areas, and in certain corpus missions in particular. I still have yet to crank out a few more Grineer Tiles, Uranus (Jokes in-coming) in particular.

I think you really articulated all of that well, thanks for the response.

 

19 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

On 2018-06-05 at 4:38 PM, SyBuhr said:

I am not sure why you feel the need to apologize for that, or for anyone else

In my opinion a lot of the complaints are unreasonable. Also a few posts were downright insulting, though this might have been on reddit. I think he deserves better.

Please recognize: Saryn cannot be buffed in any way - she is already top tier. Of course there are other reasons to dislike the rework, please feel free to share your opinion. In any case: I wouldn't bet on yet another rework.

>Posts that are insulting on Reddit

I don't give a whole lot of credibility to REE-ddit. That said, I don't believe you should apologize on behalf of others; It just isn't a good habit to develop or get into, and can sometimes have real-life consequences. Just some food-for-thought, but you don't necessarily have to listen to that blather.

I don't think people want Saryn to be buffed at this point, but I know I would either have had her: Fully re-imagined with a fresh new kit to try out, or placed back at her 2.0 time keeping the changes to Molt and Toxic Lash.

I've already stated my opinion like, a bajillion times, so I'll just keep my trap shut for a while, see if others can get some creative ideas in here. I saw a few good ones, such as Miasma becoming a sort of "Area of Effect" centered around Saryn as she moves about. I personally would like to see Spores changed to be a sort of AOE ability where Saryn lobs a Spore (sort of like a grenade; Heavy arching effect to it) that applies spores to all enemies affected in a given range.This would reward players for grouping enemies and offer a higher skill reward, rather than just point-n-clicking an enemy, and offer you more enemies to spread the spores passively ONCE for excellent aiming and judgement making. The downside is that I can't quite come up with a means of balancing that out, because then you'd have a bunch of Saryns lobbing Spore-Mortars 24/7 (which would be hilarious and awesome). It's also something we don't really see or have in a Warframe (besides maybe like, Vauban), so it isn't a necessarily over-done concept.

I'd always bet on another re-work, just not right away. I think DE is still reviewing comments and ideas. But given that the game is considered a "Platform as a Service", we're bound to see revisits and revisions later down the road.

[Traumtulpe]

14 minutes ago, SyBuhr said:

I don't believe you should apologize on behalf of others; It just isn't a good habit to develop or get into, and can sometimes have real-life consequences. Just some food-for-thought

I found this part genuinely amusing, in particular keeping in mind that this is a forum for a video game. No offense taken. 😄