[22.20.5] Spores Revisited Feedback MEGATHREAD

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Radehx said:

Because it ramps up damage quicker than you can on your own...which ultimately nets faster killing. It's a way to overcome decay fast. 

She's a super energy efficient frame too because you really don't have to spazz out and spam her abilities.

She's only energy efficient under like 3-4 types of builds. She's meant to use abilities and under that premise those few builds only use two abilities at most. 

Putting condition overload on any decent melee with toxic lash basically just kills any enemy.

I'm not finding it hard to kill things. I'm finding it hard to keep the spores going because the mechanics of them is finicky and inconsistent

[Cibyllae]

6 hours ago, MasaJin said:

Why would you need that much we carry weapons for a reason just let spores be a armor striper 

I'm not saying I need that much, I'm trying to show that whatever the Devs do there are going to be people that are unhappy. Because some people may want her focused on damage, some people may want her focused on armor stripping, some people might want her focused on survivability, etc, etc. Merely voicing that you, and I'm using you in a general sense these comments are not directed at you specifically, merely voicing that you are unhappy is fine, that's what feedback forums are for. They, the forum goers, try and address what they perceive to be the issue, which is an issue because perceptions can be wrong, but they do so in a manner that pulls Saryn in one direction, the direction that they care about, without regards to the other parts of her totality. And if the devs were to enact all of the changes everyone put forward, Saryn would become an overpowered frame. So Pablo can't make everyone happy because if he makes everyone happy Saryn becomes overpowered. And if Pablo can't make everyone happy when he makes a change, it is inevitable that when he makes a change to Saryn, some people will be happy and some people won't. We cannot go back to 2.0, because 2.0 Saryn's skill ceiling was massively unbalanced. 50% hp cut plus THE highest damage ticks that could be reached in the game? You can't have debuff and damage, and that's what she had in her potential regardless of whether or not people took advantage of it. So now the pendulum is going to swing back and forth between both of these modes until an idea can bring some perpendicular momentum to the issue. Because as it is right now, people want contradictory things out of her, and as long as people can't come to a middle ground about these contradictory things, we're always going to have people who are unhappy. Its like earth and water with what people want Saryn to be, and when those people can realize that earth and water are both elements maybe we can make some head way. But, people are too preoccupied with the differences between what they want Saryn to be. To preoccupied that earth is dry and water is not, that water is not hard but earth is. And that is truly unfortunate. There are many commonalities between what people believe to be starkly contrasting ideas of what Saryn can or should become or change into. It just takes work to find them, and people don't want to do that work, but if people just did the work maybe everyone could be happy about what is happening to our Toxic Queen.

Edited June 7, 2018 by Cibyllae

[MasaJin]

20 minutes ago, Cibyllae said:

I'm not saying I need that much, I'm trying to show that whatever the Devs do there are going to be people that are unhappy. Because some people may want her focused on damage, some people may want her focused on armor stripping, some people might want her focused on survivability, etc, etc. Merely voicing that you, and I'm using you in a general sense these comments are not directed at you specifically, merely voicing that you are unhappy is fine, that's what feedback forums are for. They, the forum goers, try and address what they perceive to be the issue, which is an issue because perceptions can be wrong, but they do so in a manner that pulls Saryn in one direction, the direction that they care about, without regards to the other parts of her totality. And if the devs were to enact all of the changes everyone put forward, Saryn would become an overpowered frame. So Pablo can't make everyone happy because if he makes everyone happy Saryn becomes overpowered. And if Pablo can't make everyone happy when he makes a change, it is inevitable that when he makes a change to Saryn, some people will be happy and some people won't. We cannot go back to 2.0, because 2.0 Saryn's skill ceiling was massively unbalanced. 50% hp cut plus THE highest damage ticks that could be reached in the game? You can't have debuff and damage, and that's what she had in her potential regardless of whether or not people took advantage of it. So now the pendulum is going to swing back and forth between both of these modes until an idea can bring some perpendicular momentum to the issue. Because as it is right now, people want contradictory things out of her, and as long as people can't come to a middle ground about these contradictory things, we're always going to have people who are unhappy. Its like earth and water with what people want Saryn to be, and when those people can realize that earth and water are both elements maybe we can make some head way. But, people are too preoccupied with the differences between what they want Saryn to be. To preoccupied that earth is dry and water is not, that water is not hard but earth is. And that is truly unfortunate. There are many commonalities between what people believe to be starkly contrasting ideas of what Saryn can or should become or change into. It just takes work to find them, and people don't want to do that work, but if people just did the work maybe everyone could be happy about what is happening to our Toxic Queen.

Oh i know i only want her to function correctly and you cant have damaging spores and a functional one it seems cus it makes the mess we have now. Her 2.0 wasn't the highest damaging thing besides that molt tower i didnt even know was a thing till this rework. the half hp and ticking vs our now nuke the world spores people will choose damg cus they want to make the game easy DE is having a hard time balancing the unbalancable this game gives to many ways and moding capacity to make anything difficult for us its a war aginst themselves they are fighting

[Cibyllae]

20 minutes ago, MasaJin said:

Her 2.0 wasn't the highest damaging thing

50 minutes ago, Cibyllae said:

THE highest damage ticks

let me clarify, when I said ticks I meant ticks in a plural sense, it was very unclear that I meant DoT abilities from my wording.

EDIT: To be clear, I meant "DoT ability" when I said "ticks"

 

Edited June 7, 2018 by Cibyllae

[MasaJin]

10 minutes ago, Cibyllae said:

let me clarify, when I said ticks I meant ticks in a plural sense, it was very unclear that I meant DoT abilities from my wording.

EDIT: To be clear, I meant "DoT ability" when I said "ticks"

 

No it was clear idk why u bother to make a post on it and octavia had the highest ticks if u wanna do that and she still does cus that scaling mallet is a monster

[(PSN)Radehx]

8 hours ago, (PS4)Kairu_Aname said:

She's only energy efficient under like 3-4 types of builds. She's meant to use abilities and under that premise those few builds only use two abilities at most. 

Putting condition overload on any decent melee with toxic lash basically just kills any enemy.

I'm not finding it hard to kill things. I'm finding it hard to keep the spores going because the mechanics of them is finicky and inconsistent

Then you are only playing low to mid levels 😉

[SyBuhr]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Radehx said:

Then you are only playing low to mid levels 😉

Which is the majority of the game, if you also consider anything below Mid-tier to hold the same facts as Kairu_Aname has stated. Anything below 60-ish on Star chart (From what I've done and tested) is incredibly inconsistent due to how spores are now, essentially removing two abilities: Toxic Lash and Spores. What do I mean by this, personally? They aren't energy efficient to use in anything below that level, even with Power Strength minimized. It then becomes clear that her only useful ability is Miasma, at 53 energy a hit if you have Streamline on, it becomes more efficient. But is this what we really want? Roughly 65% of the games content to see the use of only one ability, while the other 35% of the game sees only the exceptional use of her Spore-Miasma combo?

It is clear that this shouldn't really be the case; During her 2.0 time, we moved away from Miasma as a spam ability. Now we are inching closer back to that.

11 hours ago, Cibyllae said:

I'm not saying I need that much, I'm trying to show that whatever the Devs do there are going to be people that are unhappy. Because some people may want her focused on damage, some people may want her focused on armor stripping, some people might want her focused on survivability, etc, etc. Merely voicing that you, and I'm using you in a general sense these comments are not directed at you specifically, merely voicing that you are unhappy is fine, that's what feedback forums are for. They, the forum goers, try and address what they perceive to be the issue, which is an issue because perceptions can be wrong, but they do so in a manner that pulls Saryn in one direction, the direction that they care about, without regards to the other parts of her totality. And if the devs were to enact all of the changes everyone put forward, Saryn would become an overpowered frame. So Pablo can't make everyone happy because if he makes everyone happy Saryn becomes overpowered. And if Pablo can't make everyone happy when he makes a change, it is inevitable that when he makes a change to Saryn, some people will be happy and some people won't. We cannot go back to 2.0, because 2.0 Saryn's skill ceiling was massively unbalanced. 50% hp cut plus THE highest damage ticks that could be reached in the game? You can't have debuff and damage, and that's what she had in her potential regardless of whether or not people took advantage of it. So now the pendulum is going to swing back and forth between both of these modes until an idea can bring some perpendicular momentum to the issue. Because as it is right now, people want contradictory things out of her, and as long as people can't come to a middle ground about these contradictory things, we're always going to have people who are unhappy. Its like earth and water with what people want Saryn to be, and when those people can realize that earth and water are both elements maybe we can make some head way. But, people are too preoccupied with the differences between what they want Saryn to be. To preoccupied that earth is dry and water is not, that water is not hard but earth is. And that is truly unfortunate. There are many commonalities between what people believe to be starkly contrasting ideas of what Saryn can or should become or change into. It just takes work to find them, and people don't want to do that work, but if people just did the work maybe everyone could be happy about what is happening to our Toxic Queen.

I think my general problem is that, she was Okay during her 2.0 time. She did need some changes (Molt specifically), but she wasn't broken; She synergized well if you modded her and her weapons appropriately. She had innate scaling, which scaled on enemy level (which is something a majority of players want, because you rarely, if ever, have that), not this new method in which she is only extremely potent in one, singular game mode, and then you begin to see a drop-off in other missions.

She only ever had insane damage-over-time when you paired it with toxic/gas weapons, with exceptionally high crit-chance (See: Gas Lanka). Even so, you still had to work for those ticks, they didn't just come out of nowhere.

My question then is, why can we not have a frame who can Debuff and do Damage? Bluntly, I never saw a massive amount of Saryn players using her during her 2.0 time frame. I do see more now, but they are literally choking each other out in missions, and one of them is going to feel like a useless tool. Before, you could have two Saryns in a mission, and not worry about either of them choking the other out in the same scale, they would always be contributing to the team via their Debuff, viral, which nothing else offers at the same scale. I played her purely as a Debuff frame, and she always felt viable, regardless of the map, faction, or mission (save for like spy, but any frame can do spy if you are smart enough as a player). Add to that, they didn't need to have incredibly high DOTs, because Viral would innately do that for them. There was never a need to mod purely for Damage. Now, her kit is practically relegated to Onslaught, or anything above 60. You can't keep up with spores very well below that, and you will waste a ton of energy just trying to do so. Subsequently, you won't use Molt, because enemies will not really be able to kill you at those points, even if you don't mod for Tankiness. Lastly, it makes Toxic lash sort of pointless, since there is no offered-synergy to use with Spores. It then relegates you to using and spamming Miasma on anything below that 60 threshold, which is something we want to move away from. It isn't healthy. She only feels healthy at those higher-levels, and when conditions (outside the player's control) are met. She doesn't work well with another Saryn, which she used to before, she doesn't offer any energy-efficient Debuffs like she used to (If everyone brings Corrosive Projection, making your spores Debuff pointless, and at that point, why spam Miasma), she isn't as effective as she used to be in general. She relies on Allies to have good aim and shoot the spores, rather than just kill the enemies (and most PUGs will NOT do that). Over-all, her spores have become a more selfish-spore than before, and I think that's what I dislike; She wasn't purely focused on this level of selfish-playstyle. I am sure in coordinated teams, where they only do Onslaught and Sorties and then call it a day really like Saryn. But I can't say I've been too impressed (or I've impressed others in PUGs) playing Saryn, and it really sucks.

I think I would have preferred a re-imagining over this entirely, seeing as how they were willing to take massive risks. Heck, even moving forward, if they said, "Hey look, we can't really roll-back now, but we have some crazy fresh new ideas we want to try out", I'd still be game to try those ideas.

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Radehx said:

Then you are only playing low to mid levels 😉

Let me clarify then, what I was doing yesterday. I was running elite sanctuary onslaught and a good two hour survival(left at 2 hours because I got frustrated with her abilities) with a good 12 builds yesterday and the day before. 

If those levels aren't good enough to have valid criticism then what levels are? I don't just give bad criticism. I give criticism because I find something to not fit quite right, because something just feels bad. And I don't like this version of saryn. As SyBuhr said 2.0 saryn just felt better to most because the kit synergized well. It didn't have forced dead-end mechanics in the abilities.

[Jakizu]

People need to understand this game and then I feel they'd fair better.

Rework intakes complete overhaul therefore you need to be will to give all your configs an overhaul as well.

Energy Hungry-- Before the amount of damage was based on casting. The more instances of spores you had going the faster everything died. If you're still holding onto that play tactic, no matter the tweak you will always have that issue. You're energy hungry not saryn.

Before I was constantly casting chasing the high of toxic lash's 2 energy refund[want worth it in reality].

 Zenurik is also too much- to constantly tranfer out your warframe is foolish. All my configurations for saryn have 45% efficiency and I stay with full energy. With her new increase in armor along with a rage or hunters adrenaline my saryn more stably thrives on damage. 

With "Steel fiber" I'm set. My config without steel fiber I used "regenerative molt" bc of the large amount of power strength I'm gaining large health balancing out the damage I'm taking. All in all still set. 

Also wanting spread on all death is just lazy and anyone asking for it just wants to sit back and watch, not ok. They not only added auto spread on all directly casted spore targets but also added spread on death wen spore target dies due to miasma. As well as your regular hit chance and toxic lash's guaranteed spread, spread should be a complete non issue. 

I do however agree the decay needs to still be worked on as, in essence, it still drains just as fast we just don't have to watch every digit drop. This spores disappearing on saryn death is also bullS#&$ as it wasnt a thing prior to this revisit. I feel they should leave it how it was so your team can still utilize spores. But maybe save this decay aspect for bleedout/ death. 

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

20 minutes ago, Jakizu said:

People need to understand this game and then I feel they'd fair better.

Rework intakes complete overhaul therefore you need to be will to give all your configs an overhaul as well.

Energy Hungry-- Before the amount of damage was based on casting. The more instances of spores you had going the faster everything died. If you're still holding onto that play tactic, no matter the tweak you will always have that issue. You're energy hungry not saryn.

Before I was constantly casting chasing the high of toxic lash's 2 energy refund[want worth it in reality].

 Zenurik is also too much- to constantly tranfer out your warframe is foolish. All my configurations for saryn have 45% efficiency and I stay with full energy. With her new increase in armor along with a rage or hunters adrenaline my saryn more stably thrives on damage. 

With "Steel fiber" I'm set. My config without steel fiber I used "regenerative molt" bc of the large amount of power strength I'm gaining large health balancing out the damage I'm taking. All in all still set. 

Also wanting spread on all death is just lazy and anyone asking for it just wants to sit back and watch, not ok. They not only added auto spread on all directly casted spore targets but also added spread on death wen spore target dies due to miasma. As well as your regular hit chance and toxic lash's guaranteed spread, spread should be a complete non issue. 

I do however agree the decay needs to still be worked on as, in essence, it still drains just as fast we just don't have to watch every digit drop. This spores disappearing on saryn death is also bullS#&$ as it wasnt a thing prior to this revisit. I feel they should leave it how it was so your team can still utilize spores. But maybe save this decay aspect for bleedout/ death. 

If you're talking about my post, then you didn't read the whole thing. I have a few clarifications to the energy hungry part. 

I also specified that only a few builds work and I changed my playstyle quite a few times. 

And again with the lazy.... 

You are the lazy one and didn't read the whole post, or a few pages back. I covered that part in an earlier post.

[Jakizu]

33 minutes ago, (PS4)Kairu_Aname said:

If you're talking about my post, then you didn't read the whole thing. I have a few clarifications to the energy hungry part. 

I also specified that only a few builds work and I changed my playstyle quite a few times. 

And again with the lazy.... 

You are the lazy one and didn't read the whole post, or a few pages back. I covered that part in an earlier post.

1, I don't know who you are. My post wasn't directed at you or else I would've quoted you like I am now so calm down. My reply is general to address the wave of people, in my opinion, who are new to saryn and only using her bc they heard rework wanting to just be OP just like when Volt got his. Everyone wanted to post their opinions despite the rework being their first go at the warframe. The ones who are still complaining about lack of energy, synergy, spread and decay not completely exploring all their options frustrate me. If you took offense to what I said than that means you don't agree with something I said and just say that. But I wasn't talking about you as I haven't even read your post and now most likely won't...

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

Your first point is a fair one, but I wouldn't have issues with it if you stated that this was your first post with this thread. 

Now again, if you refuse to read, you can't call other people lazy. That's the issue I have. The laziness part has been addressed in previous posts. 

[MasaJin]

32 minutes ago, Jakizu said:

The ones who are still complaining about lack of energy, synergy, spread and decay not completely exploring all their options frustrate me.

Don't group everyone up like that i complain about energy and spread cus its not really fun gameplay to constantly chase spores or spam miasma. I dont own any arcanes nor am i a fan of focus cus i dont have time to grind it and i dont think the staple of it for energy is ok i perfer getting my energy from being shot (rage or adrenaline) or finding it on the field just cus i dont like the other options doesnt mean i should be forced to use them to enjoy the frame

[(XBOX)Black Hawksmoor]

I think there should be an easy way to track infected enemies on the minimap. Maybe have them be a different color or something, that way when there's one enemy left infected and you want to track them down to spread spores, you're able to find them quickly. 

[Jakizu]

33 minutes ago, (PS4)Kairu_Aname said:

Your first point is a fair one, but I wouldn't have issues with it if you stated that this was your first post with this thread. 

Now again, if you refuse to read, you can't call other people lazy. That's the issue I have. The laziness part has been addressed in previous posts. 

This isn't my first post in this thread or in general. And again if it doesn't apply to you then move on and stop wanting to take it personal. I gave my opinion based on what I've read in completion and off of my play experience point blank. I don't know any of you to "attack" you but wen it comes to laziness, whether u like it or not, there's a community of ppl looking for the frames that requires the least work. There's also equally a community of ppl who ride the rework bandwagon. Cant tell you how many times i get on to a bunch of ppl just now getting and ranking saryn for the first time who have a lot to complain about. I spoke my opinion and I won't apologize for it nor take it back.

[Jakizu]

31 minutes ago, MasaJin said:

Don't group everyone up like that i complain about energy and spread cus its not really fun gameplay to constantly chase spores or spam miasma. I dont own any arcanes nor am i a fan of focus cus i dont have time to grind it and i dont think the staple of it for energy is ok i perfer getting my energy from being shot (rage or adrenaline) or finding it on the field just cus i dont like the other options doesnt mean i should be forced to use them to enjoy the frame

Again not about you then as you've explored all your available options and found something that works. Though you don't have or deal with focus, you're clearly not the lazy bunch I'm talking about.

Now i agree you shouldnt be forced to use any specific method to use a frame 100% Though. But sadly that's kinda how a lot of warframes are setup.

[Callback]

So I finally tried Saryn 3.0, and yeah.  There are some problems.

 

#1 problem is multiple Saryns.  This needs a fix.  Either adding more spore slots to the enemy and making it 3 per player instead of total, or allowing slots to be "shared" and count as everyone's spore.  Just do something to let 2 or more Saryns work together instead of hindering each other.

 

Right now one Saryn takes all the spore slots and starts to ramp up.  Then the other finds an opening and takes all the new slots, causing the first Saryn to ruin out of enemies and start decaying.  They panic and rush to find another target to stop the decay (which is unreasonably fast), and eventually do land one and instantly spread it to all available slots, but not before losing 80%+ of their previous ramp.  But now the 2nd Saryn is out of enemies and is also decaying.  So it goes back and forth with neither able to really ramp.  It really is anti-synergy that 2+ combined do less than 1 could with the other(s) AFK.

 

The decay.  It's way too fast.  Duration doesn't help the problem.  What it needs is some kind of grace period.  The instant 20% drop is punishment enough.  Give a 5 second window before it continues to drop further, or start the drop at a very low percentage and slowly increase it towards the max drain of 10% per second.

 

Ramp.  The ramp needs scaling.  My personal suggestion is to tie the old status spread into the ramp mechanic making toxin ticks on infected enemies feed into the spore damage to some degree.  This gives more synergy with toxic lash, and allows for clever weapon loadouts (like the old gas builds from Saryn 2.0) to quickly push the damage up into prime territory. 

 

Another suggestion would be to have the ramp affected by the enemy's health.  Instead of 2 base per tick, have the value be 0.05% of the enemy's max health.

 

Her other 3 abilities are great.  It's really just spores, as the main focus/mechanic of her kit, that needs attention.

Edited June 7, 2018 by Callback

[MasaJin]

11 minutes ago, Jakizu said:

Again not about you then as you've explored all your available options and found something that works. Though you don't have or deal with focus, you're clearly not the lazy bunch I'm talking about.

Now i agree you shouldnt be forced to use any specific method to use a frame 100% Though. But sadly that's kinda how a lot of warframes are setup.

Oh ik you weren't directing it at me just don't really need to group people like that some people may not play saryn often but play other frames and understand the game if they think it doesn't feel right about how it works its not laziness just reporting their experience

[(PSN)Radehx]

Kinda funny how many want frames geared around them instead of having to learn and adapt to abilities...

[Jakizu]

23 minutes ago, (PS4)Radehx said:

Kinda funny how many want frames geared around them instead of having to learn and adapt to abilities...

 THANK YOU!!! That's all I'm trying to say.

[Cibyllae]

4 hours ago, SyBuhr said:

Which is the majority of the game, if you also consider anything below Mid-tier to hold the same facts as Kairu_Aname has stated. Anything below 60-ish on Star chart (From what I've done and tested) is incredibly inconsistent due to how spores are now, essentially removing two abilities: Toxic Lash and Spores. What do I mean by this, personally? They aren't energy efficient to use in anything below that level, even with Power Strength minimized. It then becomes clear that her only useful ability is Miasma, at 53 energy a hit if you have Streamline on, it becomes more efficient. But is this what we really want? Roughly 65% of the games content to see the use of only one ability, while the other 35% of the game sees only the exceptional use of her Spore-Miasma combo?

It is clear that this shouldn't really be the case; During her 2.0 time, we moved away from Miasma as a spam ability. Now we are inching closer back to that.

I think my general problem is that, she was Okay during her 2.0 time. She did need some changes (Molt specifically), but she wasn't broken; She synergized well if you modded her and her weapons appropriately. She had innate scaling, which scaled on enemy level (which is something a majority of players want, because you rarely, if ever, have that), not this new method in which she is only extremely potent in one, singular game mode, and then you begin to see a drop-off in other missions.

She only ever had insane damage-over-time when you paired it with toxic/gas weapons, with exceptionally high crit-chance (See: Gas Lanka). Even so, you still had to work for those ticks, they didn't just come out of nowhere.

My question then is, why can we not have a frame who can Debuff and do Damage? Bluntly, I never saw a massive amount of Saryn players using her during her 2.0 time frame. I do see more now, but they are literally choking each other out in missions, and one of them is going to feel like a useless tool. Before, you could have two Saryns in a mission, and not worry about either of them choking the other out in the same scale, they would always be contributing to the team via their Debuff, viral, which nothing else offers at the same scale. I played her purely as a Debuff frame, and she always felt viable, regardless of the map, faction, or mission (save for like spy, but any frame can do spy if you are smart enough as a player). Add to that, they didn't need to have incredibly high DOTs, because Viral would innately do that for them. There was never a need to mod purely for Damage. Now, her kit is practically relegated to Onslaught, or anything above 60. You can't keep up with spores very well below that, and you will waste a ton of energy just trying to do so. Subsequently, you won't use Molt, because enemies will not really be able to kill you at those points, even if you don't mod for Tankiness. Lastly, it makes Toxic lash sort of pointless, since there is no offered-synergy to use with Spores. It then relegates you to using and spamming Miasma on anything below that 60 threshold, which is something we want to move away from. It isn't healthy. She only feels healthy at those higher-levels, and when conditions (outside the player's control) are met. She doesn't work well with another Saryn, which she used to before, she doesn't offer any energy-efficient Debuffs like she used to (If everyone brings Corrosive Projection, making your spores Debuff pointless, and at that point, why spam Miasma), she isn't as effective as she used to be in general. She relies on Allies to have good aim and shoot the spores, rather than just kill the enemies (and most PUGs will NOT do that). Over-all, her spores have become a more selfish-spore than before, and I think that's what I dislike; She wasn't purely focused on this level of selfish-playstyle. I am sure in coordinated teams, where they only do Onslaught and Sorties and then call it a day really like Saryn. But I can't say I've been too impressed (or I've impressed others in PUGs) playing Saryn, and it really sucks.

I think I would have preferred a re-imagining over this entirely, seeing as how they were willing to take massive risks. Heck, even moving forward, if they said, "Hey look, we can't really roll-back now, but we have some crazy fresh new ideas we want to try out", I'd still be game to try those ideas.

I wasn't sub-@ing you mate, I know you've been active and level headed during these ongoing changes and I appreciate it as someone who spent hours, and hours, and hours reading saryn's wiki before these changes occurred or were announced. Why can't we have a frame who can debuff and do damage? What I want to say is, if DE was okay with a frame like that existing they would not have changed Saryn. But these changes seem like Pablo just wanted to finish the project he started. It seems like Pablo came back to Saryn, which he started thinking about back in February before Onslaught was out for everyone who believes these changes are happening because of Onslaught, because he was creatively unsatisfied with where he left her. Albeit where she was, was not bad, I don't think it was where he wanted her to be. You're right, there is no reason that I can think of which bars us from having a debuff and damage frame. I shouldn't have used that as a reason for why she might have been changed because in a greater analysis it doesn't hold up.

 

If you've ever played KingdomHearts, it feels like Saryn has just pulled a Riku and accepted the darkness into her heart and become something she should not have ever become. But we can't go back to Destiny Island, because things aren't the same anymore,we can't roll back the code. If we were to roll back the code because 2.0 fans got screwed, but had to screw over 3.0 fans in the process of doing so, we would still be back at square one. Two wrongs don't make a right. Now Saryn is on this path, and everyone who truly enjoys playing her needs to make sure she doesn't get lost to the Darkness. If Sora became mad at what Riku had become and lost sight of the good he knew existed within his friend and let the darkness within Riku's heart bar him from pursuing Riku, we would have never had a story. Just a sad boy laden with resentment in a world in-between worlds. Like I said, two wrongs don't make a right, we can't screw over some people to appease some people because we'll be right back at square one. We can't go back to what she was because of this, and it seems like Saryn is going to be what she is for a while. But that's just called hard work for those who want her future to be more than her present.

I think you're cracking open a real gripe most people don't know how to articulate, and that is:

4 hours ago, SyBuhr said:

Over-all, her spores have become a more selfish-spore than before, and I think that's what I dislike

If there is a way for her play style to be selfish, and non-selfish at the same time, we should at the very least turn our heads to what that might look like. Not necessarily needing to walk down that path, just simply looking in its direction.

 

EDIT: And I'm not saying you are advocating for a rollback, I'm am trying to say that our only answers for what Saryn should be lay in the future of what she can be not in the past of what she was.

 

Edited June 7, 2018 by Cibyllae

[Jakizu]

42 minutes ago, MasaJin said:

Oh ik you weren't directing it at me just don't really need to group people like that some people may not play saryn often but play other frames and understand the game if they think it doesn't feel right about how it works its not laziness just reporting their experience

 Your right but if I would simply just take the word people out of my responses and I'm still saying the same thing and it would still be looked at as an attack.

Also, I feel if you're new to a warframe then be new to it. But at that point you're play experience with said warframe is warped around the idea of other warframes you're use to. These reworks are to not only being more relevance to a frame's skill set but also to help make them stand out more individually up against other frames. 

When volt and ash got their reworks I surely went to try it and test it out. There was a lot that didn't feel rite to me based on how I remembered them and my understanding on the game as a whole. But, at the end of the day I don't use them. So instead of spreading my unexperienced opinion on them, I sat back, read input and ask question from experienced users. Doing so helped me better understand wat didn't feel right and why, and from there I could formulate a more stable opinion. 

As a veteran player [since beta] weve had to watch a lot of changes to the game happen based on opinions that in all honesty are not solid. This just so happens to be a part of the game that means everything to me as Saryn has been my number one most used and favorite warframes since she came out. 

Im not trying to offend anyone but I like to stand firmly by what I say and how I feel without apology. I promise it's nothing personal. 

But back to what me and you have in common. The idea of being "forced etc." I feel for me the decay is wats still forcing me into a pattern. At first it seemed like I was just using all her skills more often, which I was about. But after trying to test her limits, there's mechanical issues that force me personally to need certain things such as regenerative molt for example. Mechanic issues like how spores vanishes when you go down, I feel it technically didn't before bc of the duration it had where now there is none, but still is extremely incontinent. 

It's almost like, here are the different play styles u have with her but for each one this is what you HAVE to do/ use. That I'm not a fan of. 

Sorry if I confused you. I tried reading over it a few times to make sure it was cohesive lol

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

I've already stated a suggestion that fixes a lot of issues with spore. I'll state it again, but add something else for multiple saryn's because that was a good idea.

Make spore spread regardless of circumstance.

Change the damage mechanic to only apply built up damage to spores spread by saryn herself, and only half the damage built up to enemies killed by allies.

Spores spread by themselves deal base damage.

Make spores have an allotment of "slots" on an enemy based on how many saryn's there are in a squad. There's around 10 slots per enemy atm, but only one saryn's spores can be on them at any point in time, and currently(to my knowledge) only 3 of that saryn's spores can be on that enemy. 

Don't remove spores from enemies when saryn dies, just reset the damage. It feels better if they still keep the spores.

Those are all my suggested spore changes. 

Other ability changes below. Stop reading here if you don't care about anything but spores. 

Molt.

Combine the augment with it and make her heal base. Make the augment strip status changes from saryn. Frees up a generally put "required" mod. Makes it an optional one. 

Toxic lash. 

Give some kind of energy refund because saryn is energy hungry on all but like 4 build variations and it would alleviate that to an astonishing degree even if it was just one energy. It would reward actually using toxic lash.(because as many times it was said in this very thread, "just use her miasma to spread spores and kill enemies" isn't fun. It's not diversified gameplay.)

Miasma. (They reduced the cost of it because she was having energy issues and made this the Avenue by which people spread spores)

To keep people from spamming it constantly, make it have 10 base damage, but double its damage every second it's used after cast. 

10 damage at start, then 20, then 40 etc.

Make base duration 8 seconds.

 

These alleviate almost all issues with current saryn including being pigeonholed into only a few playstyles which I don't like

[Traumtulpe]

1 hour ago, Callback said:

Ramp.  The ramp needs scaling. [...] have the ramp affected by the enemy's health.  Instead of 2 base per tick, have the value be 0.15% of the enemy's max health

It is really easy to get Spores up to 1000 damage, even with negative power strength. You suggestion would make it really easy for Spores to reach 75% of the enemies health as damage, three times per second. That is not balanced.

Well, actually it would be impossible to reach 75% health as damage - because all the enemies would die instantly long before that point. Everything would die within 2 seconds of Spores at the equivalent of ~200 damage (less than 10 seconds of ramp up).

In other words: Even starting from 0, Spores would kill an entire map of level 9999 enemies in 8 seconds. At 100% power strength.

[Jakizu]

40 minutes ago, (PS4)Kairu_Aname said:

I've already stated a suggestion that fixes a lot of issues with spore. I'll state it again, but add something else for multiple saryn's because that was a good idea.

Make spore spread regardless of circumstance.

Change the damage mechanic to only apply built up damage to spores spread by saryn herself, and only half the damage built up to enemies killed by allies.

Spores spread by themselves deal base damage.

Make spores have an allotment of "slots" on an enemy based on how many saryn's there are in a squad. There's around 10 slots per enemy atm, but only one saryn's spores can be on them at any point in time, and currently(to my knowledge) only 3 of that saryn's spores can be on that enemy. 

Don't remove spores from enemies when saryn dies, just reset the damage. It feels better if they still keep the spores.

Those are all my suggested spore changes. 

Other ability changes below. Stop reading here if you don't care about anything but spores. 

Molt.

Combine the augment with it and make her heal base. Make the augment strip status changes from saryn. Frees up a generally put "required" mod. Makes it an optional one. 

Toxic lash. 

Give some kind of energy refund because saryn is energy hungry on all but like 4 build variations and it would alleviate that to an astonishing degree even if it was just one energy. It would reward actually using toxic lash.(because as many times it was said in this very thread, "just use her miasma to spread spores and kill enemies" isn't fun. It's not diversified gameplay.)

Miasma. (They reduced the cost of it because she was having energy issues and made this the Avenue by which people spread spores)

To keep people from spamming it constantly, make it have 10 base damage, but double its damage every second it's used after cast. 

10 damage at start, then 20, then 40 etc.

Make base duration 8 seconds.

 

These alleviate almost all issues with current saryn including being pigeonholed into only a few playstyles which I don't like

I like the idea for molt. With this revisit I feel health is more needed than speed. 

Toxic lash though. Unless they were to take ur advice on spores, i would want more than 2 energy back. With how it is now we'd be chasing enemies to kill for energy before spores kills them. Maybe 1 or 2 energy back per enemy that dies from a spore spread by toxic lash? Again that's a suggestion if they were to keep spores how they are.

And miasma, if this change is based on the general spread on all death. Then I'd be about it as long as we still get the guaranteed proc per tick. 

All in all I like your package. It encourages spread, which is the natural idea when thinking of poison. I feel like they tried to contain or quarantine her, kinda the same way they did ember. 

And can I add this as a general idea for base elemental warframes. Can we get some kinda of something for getting toxic proc? Ember gets energy but as a master of the base element types I feel for her we should get maybe a damage buff from toxic proc. For another example maybe for volt he could convert electric proc into shield or something but a thought i literally just had.