Saryn's Spore is a better Nuke than her Nuke (Miasma/Spore rework)

[Aktriaz]

I made a post similar to this one one the Saryn Feedback megathread (pre- spores rework), detailing my current problems with Saryn's rework. Currently, only half the problems I proposed were solved, and those were the lesser ones.

My main problem with Saryn's current state is the lack of synergy between her abilities, compared to her older version. (Specifically, Miasma) Let me explain;

Old Saryn used Spores as a debuff, halving enemy health, rarely doing enough damage to kill. Molt was used defensively, and was a way to spread spores simultaneously (by planting them on it and having enemies attack it). Toxic Lash let Saryn spread spores with her melee weapon more reliably, and add/spread Toxin Procs (and gain energy!), which in addition to spores' viral procs tripled her Ultimates' Damage. She had a Debuff, Defensive Ability, Buff, and Nuke, all which benefited one or the other in some way. I could use Saryn pretty much anywhere, and she would be welcomed by any team as one of the best enemy debuffer.

Saryn's new version, well... You could argue she still has the synergy, but now Spores is a Nuke ability and Miasma can't figure out if it's a Debuff or worse Nuke. She's okay in survival, but still God-Tier in Onslaught. Molt is used to keep enemies of your back, and Toxic Lash is just the means to spread Spores to nuke enemies harder. Miasma is pretty useless now, compared to the absolute bulldozer that is Spores.

I adamantly believe scaling damage on spores was a mistake. A first ability should not be a nuke ability. I do, however, like the idea of some form of scaling in her kit.

So here's my idea: remove damage scaling on Spores, and move that scaling to Miasma. Think of it like a cross between Nidus' Mutation Stacks and Equinox/Day.

Popping Spores (with Toxic Lash, perhaps) adds a certain amount to a pool that is added to Miasma when cast, expending the stored amount (there could be a hard stored cap, or a limit to how much is spent per cast). Miasma's base damage and cost would be drastically reduced (like, 50/tick and 50 energy cost), and without enough stored damage becomes a Viral Debuff/CC move.

This way, Spores remain a debuff move, and Miasma becomes a Nuke ability again that requires the use of her other abilities.

I'm still not really satisfied with the current state of Saryn, and this is how I think she could be improved.

[Leqesai]

Miasma has a pretty good place for low level wiping.

[Birdframe_Prime]

So... I have an issue with how you're defining the changes here, and specifically with your opinion on Spores. It's not a full commentary on your ideas, just on the basis of them;

Because it's not a nuke.

See, a Nuke is when you press a button and everything goes Boom. Old Saryn, where you could mod her for negative duration and deal all of Miasma's damage in two seconds, that was a nuke. Old Mag, where you pressed 2 and everything in range had its shield pop and damage everything else around it for massive amounts of damage, that was a nuke.

When you press 1 on current Saryn, nothing goes boom. One enemy goes 'Oh, I have aids-cancer now...'

Yes, it can scale up. But it's capped on how fast, now it only scales off up to 10 enemies, meaning that it's far slower than it was before. On top of that, if you re-cast on an already infected enemy, it actually drops your damage by 20%, and if you kill off those enemies entirely you Decay damage like a time-lapse.

 

That's, by definition, not a Nuke.

That's a Damage over Time ability.

Funnily enough, that's also what Miasma is, because while you can load it with Strength, it still delivers the damage over a period of time. So it's not even a 'worse' nuke, it's just a high Damage over Time ability.

So if your whole argument comes from this belief that DE made her 1 a Nuke... you've missed a key part of that definition.

[ZodiacShinryu]

7 hours ago, Aktriaz said:

Saryn's new version, well... You could argue she still has the synergy, but now Spores is a Nuke ability and Miasma can't figure out if it's a Debuff or worse Nuke. She's okay in survival, but still God-Tier in Onslaught. Molt is used to keep enemies of your back, and Toxic Lash is just the means to spread Spores to nuke enemies harder. Miasma is pretty useless now, compared to the absolute bulldozer that is Spores.

Spores in their current form is still technically slower to kill than pervious iterations of Spores unless you spend the time growing the damage (though even then theoretically Toxin Spore had a certain edge in burst) which isn't as simple as people make it out to be outside of Onslaught modes (which is NOT the whole game). I am still a Toxin-Viral Spread Spore fan personally even in all its inconsistencies but all this rework did was make her more consistent while rewarding her for spreading pestilence as she is intended.

That being said Spore's previous synergy with Toxin (the previous rework) made it far stronger than Miasma still even with the Viral effects on Spore helping limit it realistically. Since it didn't care where the toxin came from theoretically you can have a toxin spread burst with the punch of the damage cap of the engine toxin proc. We are talking advanced burst damage and higher DoT ticks because it was a percentage of the initial proc and at damage cap of around 2billion, we are going to have numbers far higher than 3x damage Miasma would ever dream to get. Sure there are a lot of caveats (like the enemy having to live through that initial assault before you could spread it) with that but if we are talking potential power for power Spores has always been winning since her first rework. As long as Spores (any power for that matter) could borrow its strength from the rest of your arsenal it was going to beat Miasma or any power that only deals flat damage. Technically Miasma now is far stronger by being a relative decent damage AoE that will ensure you always do at least 50% of the enemies health in damage (indirectly through Viral).

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

true, but not every frame uses its #4 as a nuke. Nidus is a good example, as his 1 is pretty much his key ability, with every other centering around using it.

 

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

true, but not every frame uses its #4 as a nuke. Nidus is a good example, as his 1 is pretty much his key ability, with every other centering around using it.

Exactly right. Not just him, either.

• Octavia's 1 is her main kill ability 
• Nova's 2 is her main damage ability (even though her 4 is good, it's still technically just a CC and damage buff) 
• Chroma doesn't even have a truly functional 'damage' ability, he only has the buff to weapons from Vex Armour.
• Gara's best ability is Splinter Storm, able to stack up damage
• None of Harrow's abilities do damage, they're all buff abilities, and arguably the CC, shield, health and energy regen are better overall than a temporary damage mitigation and crit boost.
• Hydroid's puddle is more damaging than his 4, especially when you combine it with his 1 Augment, Corroding Barrage.
• Inaros doesn't really have an effective direct damage ability at all, it's all mostly CC and life gain
• Khora and Atlas both have their damage on 1
• Limbo... is full support and CC, the CC is as good as the large-area Rift ball
• Loki doesn't have a single kill ability and Invisibility is arguably as useful as Disarm
• Mag's best ability is 2
• Nekros' only actual damage ability is 1, his 3 is more important
• Oberon does more damage at high level with his 1.
• Rhino's 4 is actually a CC ability, his Iron Skin and Roar are his best casts.
• Trinity is all support and EV, Link and Blessing are debatably equally powerful because they're situational.
• Vauban is all CC, and his Bastille is often more useful than his Vortex due to range.

Frames are completely based on effect, not on a strict '1, 2, 3, 4 = base, okay, better, best' ruling.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

Saryn's molt hasn't been considered an effective nuke ever since they first touched her back when they started reworks.  Back when all of her other abilities were garbage is when Miasma was an effective nuke.  Fast forward to the first rework she got.  Spores were still her main damage dealer.  Or have you not seen all the sniper saryns with a gas lanka?  There was also the "spore" build where you used concealed explosives to repreatedly pop for minor damage but eventually killing.  The only some what "nuke" build that existed was the molt/spore turret build.

And it was far from being an actual good build.  It was just for lazy farming.  I personally as an avid Saryn fanboy do NOT want your idea.  I don't want her to go back to her old days of nuking rooms with miasma.  That was boring and frankly not fun.  I like that Saryn breaks the mold on standard frame play where her 1 is the focus instead of her ultimate.  I much prefer miasma being a quick stun with a decent debuff that I cast on occasion.

[n3rvz]

I kinda think nuke like that is boring play would be cooler if miasma just had some sort of utility that played into the spore spreading or scaling because with the change you propose she just ends up being too much like all the other nuker frames and I like the active play she has right now.

[RealPandemonium]

Miasma still does a huge amount of damage per cast and applies the Viral proc, making it a "delete button" for those situations that warrant it.  I've also found that Miasma can actually help my spores spread in a wider radius due to the wide range of deaths it causes.  Let's not forget its CC properties and the significantly buffed radius.  Miasma is solid.  

[Misgenesis]

I have no idea what youre talking about. Miasma and Spore both tickled enemies past 50 with Spore only being good for Viral procs and broken Gas builds.

Theyre both far better not only on their own but combined.

 

[Fallen_Echo]

Apart from the obvious bugs and inconsistencies what the new Saryn needs is synergy between her skills.

Molt for example could still get spores cast on but for a different effect. Like when exploded manually it would create an infested style spore cloud what grants armor buff for player.

Toxic lash could be charged up to be consumed on the next spore cast, creating a field of dizzying gas where enemies are slowed and disoriented with reduced accuracy.

Miasma could be charged up similarly to add its viral damage to all skills in an aoe around the target they affect.