Wanna talk about Trinity + Castanas?

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Pssst. Twitch is giving out Trinity prime imo. No nerf shall happen till this advertisement is over.

[fluffysnowcap]

right... but it already happend

 

[Klokwerkaos]

On 2018-06-08 at 2:10 AM, -.SP.-G43riel said:

please guys let this tread die, its not worth wasting time on people crying for their cheesy strats being fixed

No thanks.  I'll hammer this home forever on account of it sending a message that the devs don't care or give a crap about veterans that make huge investments and that it discourages experimentation and creativity.  This breaks massive amounts of trust with DE as being "A good game developer that cares about the players" and that's an important thing to understand.

That is the hill I will die on if need be.  Ripping it out of the game wholesale like that is flat out irresponsible and represents a shameless money grab, as well as disregard/contempt for veteran player investment, and that's a bad thing.  DE should be held directly responsible for making their blatant irresponsible choices, especially when they have lots of other options available to them.

Edited June 9, 2018 by Klokwerkaos

[lolmetimbers]

Then just die on that hill.

Anyone with half a brain could see the nerf coming miles away. It was unintended mechanic so DE removed it. You can keep crying on forums like a baby but they will not revert the change. Ever. Take a deep breath and let that realization hit you.

Edited June 9, 2018 by lolmetimbers

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb lolmetimbers:

Then just die on that hill.

Agreed. Investing time looking for ways to exploit the games mechanics doesn't validate the results. Them nerfing the results of this despicable line of work also doesn't distance them from the playerbase... balancing is exact opposite of that.

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

On 2018-06-05 at 8:07 AM, EinheriarJudith said:

incorrect. in any mission including ESO, when i play trin i maintain bless, link, and always watching peoples health/energy bars while killing with my gun. not everyone who plays trin is lazy.

 

I just bring along a few Trinity Specters to accomplish this.

Then have my own frame deal dps. Seems wasteful to have one player standing out.

[Mos-Eisley]

On 2018-05-29 at 5:32 AM, EvilChaosKnight said:

My first reaction as well.
I have 2 better suggestions:
1. Stop nerfing damn Trinity already.
2. Stop balancing frames around a single game mode.

THIS ^

I love playing my trin, and I have not once come across anyone using the castana nuke build.

Though in light of one of the tips that show up on the loading screen I find this entire debate funny. I'm referring to the tip that says something to the effect of "when using nxy 4, drop castanas to increase your damage"

[EinheriarJudith]

10 minutes ago, Mos-Eisley said:

THIS ^

I love playing my trin, and I have not once come across anyone using the castana nuke build.

Though in light of one of the tips that show up on the loading screen I find this entire debate funny. I'm referring to the tip that says something to the effect of "when using nxy 4, drop castanas to increase your damage"

apparently you werent paying attention. this fix came because people were wiping the map in ALL endless modes (not just onslaught) with trin who is a dedicated support frame. to be a strong support as she is and to rival dedicated DPS frames goes against what she is intended to be used for. it wasnt a nerf as none of her support skills suffered. it was a fix. cant accept that? well to bad.

Edited June 9, 2018 by EinheriarJudith

[fluffysnowcap]

21 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

apparently you werent paying attention. this fix came because people were wiping the map in ALL endless modes (not just onslaught) with trin who is a dedicated support frame. to be a strong support as she is and to rival dedicated DPS frames goes against what she is intended to be used for. it wasnt a nerf as none of her support skills suffered. it was a fix. cant accept that? well to bad.

It was a bad fix, the "Issue" is overflow damage jumping, not self damage.

[DreamsmithJane]

Oh, this is still a discussion? Huh. OP claims this fix would be (now is) bad because it straight up kills the build. But that's the point. The build should be killed. Link was never meant to be a DPS ability. That should really be the end of it.

[Mos-Eisley]

24 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

apparently you werent paying attention. this fix came because people were wiping the map in ALL endless modes (not just onslaught) with trin who is a dedicated support frame. to be a strong support as she is and to rival dedicated DPS frames goes against what she is intended to be used for. it wasnt a nerf as none of her support skills suffered. it was a fix. cant accept that? well to bad.

I think you meant "too" bad. 

I don't really care about the Castana Trin nuke in any way. I don't use it, nor would I. I play trin as a support frame, and I will continue to do so. 

[Tyfyter2002]

On 2018-06-06 at 1:14 AM, Senketsu_ said:

they are moving the channel feature and murging it with block to have it block 100% of damage all the time in exchange for what I would assume is a small energy consumption per damage blocked. Combos are being streamlined into tiers to make them easier to do and have more of an effect in combat. They are removing the pre melee swing that always happened before a charge attack, which will make using gunblades way more fun. You will have more control over your ground slam attacks. 

Thats just what I can remember off the top of my head.

but they are also removing the combo counter from every attack that will ever be used by any player other than gunblade shots.

[Klokwerkaos]

On 2018-06-09 at 9:44 AM, lolmetimbers said:

Then just die on that hill.

Anyone with half a brain could see the nerf coming miles away. It was unintended mechanic so DE removed it. You can keep crying on forums like a baby but they will not revert the change. Ever. Take a deep breath and let that realization hit you.

I'll say kindly, don't resort to ad hominem attacks, it's unwelcome and will be reported if you continue.

Additionally, I get that, and I'll continue to *@##$ about the devs being awful until the implication is removed that they are willing to completely destroy substantial player investment and experimentation on a whim.

I was never against nerfing it, i was in support of it... but removing it isn't a nerf, it's a destruction of playstyle, and that's the problem.

TY for either saying something useful or not responding further.

[fluffysnowcap]

Try asking for an alternative fix, like removing the fact overflow damage jump's instead of self damage.

[DreamsmithJane]

5 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

I'll continue to *@##$ about the devs being awful until the implication is removed that they are willing to completely destroy substantial player investment and experimentation on a whim.

I was never against nerfing it, i was in support of it... but removing it isn't a nerf, it's a destruction of playstyle, and that's the problem.

It wasn't a whim. The last time DE nerfed something on a whim (and then promptly took it back), it was called Vivergate. This, though? The build has existed for over four years. It only came into prominence because the Aviator mod became available again and Sancti Castanas got a gargantuan buff. There was no reason to go through the trouble of changing it before, because it had been a mere curiosity in which few people could even indulge. And yet, this happened four months after the Castanas buff, and over a year after the reintroduction of the Aviator mod. Hardly a knee-jerk response. Link was always meant to be a defensive ability, not a weapon, and certainly not a weapon strong enough to propel the preeminent support frame to the heights of the DPS meta. They were very explicit about that when they made the change. I get really sick of people indulging in exploitative builds that are obviously going to be nerfed or removed, and then calling it a "cash grab" when the hammer comes down. As if they were tricked into doing this stupid thing that was never going to last, and not only that, but tricked into paying for it. Every time. Seriously? Stop. See it coming next time.

I don't want to be unsympathetic towards people who invested in this build, but it was always obvious that this would not be allowed to continue. Again, Link is not supposed to be a means for dealing damage directly. Most other abilities that are empowered by taking damage also ignore self-damage. The only one that doesn't provides a passive buff that requires direct use of weapons for offense (Chroma's Vex Armor). There was no reason to expect, after it became an issue in the community, that Link would not be made consistent, and that this build would not be consequently stripped of its damage-dealing power. Of course it would. Nerfing it while allowing to continue would not only be inconsistent with similar mechanics, but it would fail to solve the problem on a fundamental level, and depending on the method, it would risk weakening intended functions at the same time. I understand that some people have unreasonable expectations, but the solution is not to succumb and cater to those expectations. Rather, it is to guide them to reasonable expectations that don't lead them to poor choices. No game developer should violate their design purely to preserve emergent gameplay, especially when it is so disruptive.

Oh, and don't call staring at the floor and blowing yourself up until the mission ends a "playstyle". That's insulting to everyone's intelligence. It was yet another way to avoid playing the game, and we all know by now that DE hates those. We all saw this coming a thousand miles away. Don't die on this hill. It's unworthy.

[robbybe01234]

I see it this way.  If Ember got changes based on the outcome of ruining the time of other players, then Trinity gets changes.  DE has to be consistent in addressing frames easily taking fun away from other players. Especially now. 

7 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

I'll say kindly, don't resort to ad hominem attacks, it's unwelcome and will be reported if you continue.

Additionally, I get that, and I'll continue to *@##$ about the devs being awful until the implication is removed that they are willing to completely destroy substantial player investment and experimentation on a whim.

I was never against nerfing it, i was in support of it... but removing it isn't a nerf, it's a destruction of playstyle, and that's the problem.

TY for either saying something useful or not responding further.

I believe that it was the effect of her outdamaging dedicated frames coupled with her generating the same outcome as banshees and embers that pushed that descision forward to live.

[Senketsu_]

23 hours ago, Tyfyter2002 said:

but they are also removing the combo counter from every attack that will ever be used by any player other than gunblade shots.

the combo counter is now being connected to the charge attacks. Now the higher the counter the more damage a charge attack will be. Things change, you are going to have to adjust and adapt your playstyle.

[Tyfyter2002]

Just now, Senketsu_ said:

the combo counter is now being connected to the charge attacks.

that's exactly what I just said

[Senketsu_]

1 minute ago, Tyfyter2002 said:

that's exactly what I just said

yes and did you not read what I said after that. also you comment in no way implied what I stated. all you said was that gunblades would benefit exclusively from charge attacks, and that they are removing the combo counter. 

[Tyfyter2002]

1 minute ago, Senketsu_ said:

yes and did you not read what I said after that. also you comment in no way implied what I stated. all you said was that gunblades would benefit exclusively from charge attacks, and that they are removing the combo counter. 

I did not say that they were removing the combo counter from all attacks, I said they were removing the combo counter from all attacks that will be used by players.

[Senketsu_]

7 minutes ago, Tyfyter2002 said:

I did not say that they were removing the combo counter from all attacks, I said they were removing the combo counter from all attacks that will be used by players.

yes. but that lacked context, so I put context onto your statement.

[Haeen]

10 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

I'll say kindly, don't resort to ad hominem attacks, it's unwelcome and will be reported if you continue.

Additionally, I get that, and I'll continue to *@##$ about the devs being awful until the implication is removed that they are willing to completely destroy substantial player investment and experimentation on a whim.

I was never against nerfing it, i was in support of it... but removing it isn't a nerf, it's a destruction of playstyle, and that's the problem.

TY for either saying something useful or not responding further.

Dude, that was on you for inveting yourself in something that was clearly questionable. A support frame being capable of rivaling or outperforming damage based Warframes such as Mesa, Ember, Saryn, and others was clearly unintentional, and the result of utilizing a mechanic in a way which was never intended.

It allowed a player to be not merely healer, support, and tank, but DPS as well.  This was unacceptable, so it was removed.  DE made a wise decision.

[Klokwerkaos]

5 hours ago, Aegni said:

Dude, that was on you for inveting yourself in something that was clearly questionable. A support frame being capable of rivaling or outperforming damage based Warframes such as Mesa, Ember, Saryn, and others was clearly unintentional, and the result of utilizing a mechanic in a way which was never intended.

It allowed a player to be not merely healer, support, and tank, but DPS as well.  This was unacceptable, so it was removed.  DE made a wise decision.

So Octavia being able to do everything isn't invalid... and what you're saying is don't experiment, because de should take away anything you do that is effective.  Bad argument.

[Klokwerkaos]

12 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

It wasn't a whim. The last time DE nerfed something on a whim (and then promptly took it back), it was called Vivergate. This, though? The build has existed for over four years. It only came into prominence because the Aviator mod became available again and Sancti Castanas got a gargantuan buff. There was no reason to go through the trouble of changing it before, because it had been a mere curiosity in which few people could even indulge. And yet, this happened four months after the Castanas buff, and over a year after the reintroduction of the Aviator mod. Hardly a knee-jerk response. Link was always meant to be a defensive ability, not a weapon, and certainly not a weapon strong enough to propel the preeminent support frame to the heights of the DPS meta. They were very explicit about that when they made the change. I get really sick of people indulging in exploitative builds that are obviously going to be nerfed or removed, and then calling it a "cash grab" when the hammer comes down. As if they were tricked into doing this stupid thing that was never going to last, and not only that, but tricked into paying for it. Every time. Seriously? Stop. See it coming next time.

I don't want to be unsympathetic towards people who invested in this build, but it was always obvious that this would not be allowed to continue. Again, Link is not supposed to be a means for dealing damage directly. Most other abilities that are empowered by taking damage also ignore self-damage. The only one that doesn't provides a passive buff that requires direct use of weapons for offense (Chroma's Vex Armor). There was no reason to expect, after it became an issue in the community, that Link would not be made consistent, and that this build would not be consequently stripped of its damage-dealing power. Of course it would. Nerfing it while allowing to continue would not only be inconsistent with similar mechanics, but it would fail to solve the problem on a fundamental level, and depending on the method, it would risk weakening intended functions at the same time. I understand that some people have unreasonable expectations, but the solution is not to succumb and cater to those expectations. Rather, it is to guide them to reasonable expectations that don't lead them to poor choices. No game developer should violate their design purely to preserve emergent gameplay, especially when it is so disruptive.

Oh, and don't call staring at the floor and blowing yourself up until the mission ends a "playstyle". That's insulting to everyone's intelligence. It was yet another way to avoid playing the game, and we all know by now that DE hates those. We all saw this coming a thousand miles away. Don't die on this hill. It's unworthy.

I agree with much of what you've said here except that the obvious answer is to destroy it rather than balance it.

That to me speaks entirely against the entire notion of DE supposedly having a long standing reputation for caring about player investment.

They get knee jerk reactions for players who cry about forma... this build was several thousand times more expensive than a forma.  Gutting it was a poor choice in contrast to rebalancing it particularly because of the message it very clearly sends:

Don't care about how much you invested, we don't like what you did, therefore, screw you, screw your investment, screw your creativity within the systems we gave you.

That is a thing to fight against.

You're making the fallacious argument of confusing my point about the message rather than making it about the specific exploit in question.

That's the problem, and frankly you aren't listening, or are consciously ignoring that bit.

[Klokwerkaos]

On 2018-06-09 at 1:52 PM, DreamsmithJane said:

Oh, this is still a discussion? Huh. OP claims this fix would be (now is) bad because it straight up kills the build. But that's the point. The build should be killed. Link was never meant to be a DPS ability. That should really be the end of it.

Yeah and nova wasn't meant to be a tank, and rhino wasn't meant to be a stealth, but we can still use the systems to do that.

Why have a modding system at all if the point is to push creativity aside and force players into boxes?  It undermines the whole concept of the system existing to begin with.

What you're proposing is a bad argument.