This is a serious problem.

[DatDarkOne]

Just now, Sitchrea said:

You would still agree it would be best for DE to at least talk to us, right? Regardless if they should, it would be best?

I will answer this using myself as an example.  I was about to give you all the information.  Information that I'm not obligated to give you.  I was about to do all that freely, until you demanded it like I had no choice but to comply.  

People are more likely to do something if it's a request instead of a demand.  

[Letter13]

1 minute ago, Lord-Taco-the-Great said:

Letter, I like you man but this video clearly shows Fosinator being punished for stuff he did outside of warframe. If DE can remove Fosinator for what he's said on twitter and youtube, they can punish any other mod for social media posts. Otherwise, it's just a double standard. If what you are saying is true, Fosinator deserves his role back, even though he won't rejoin.

Having one's moderators privileges or youtube/twitch partner status removed is an entirely separate issue than TOS/COC violations. DE can remove these statuses/permissions at any time they see fit, for any reason, thereby returning the player to only a normal player.

Beyond that, a player will not be punished (read: suspended, banned, kicked, have access to certain gameplay functionality such as trade/chat/etc revoked) for things they do outside of the game or the forum.

[Sitchrea]

1 minute ago, Letter13 said:

It would have still been much faster to get through were it written. Again, I'm not going to spend an hour of my time on something it should take <10 minutes to review. I don't want opinionated commentary and speculation with cherry picked screenshots.

I understand - with your responsibilities, the Forums would probably be a wildfire by the time you finished the video.

Still, I want to reiterate that there is no speculation in this video, nor cherry-picked screenshots. All of his evidence is corroborated by many first-hand accounts, along with circumstantial evidence of posts being deleted when they were incriminating. There's just so much wrong with how several situations have been handled that we just want a table-slapped statement from DE about what they're going to do about moderator accountability.

[Lord-Taco-the-Great]

Just now, NullSaint said:

This giant thread is some about "white men" being abused. 

Either you're a troll, or you are completely missing every point made. Please be more informed before you make a post like that again.

[Letter13]

1 minute ago, Lord-Taco-the-Great said:

If you'd want me to sum it up for you I can. I want you to trust me when I say this video has good points.

PM it to me. It'd be much appreciated if you're willing to do that.

[Sitchrea]

1 minute ago, DatDarkOne said:

I will answer this using myself as an example.  I was about to give you all the information.  Information that I'm not obligated to give you.  I was about to do all that freely, until you demanded it like I had no choice but to comply.  

People are more likely to do something if it's a request instead of a demand.  

Isn't that what we're doing in this thread. ((Mind you, I'm not the OP. OP can say whatever he wants.  just want an honest answer from DE.))

[Letter13]

3 minutes ago, Sitchrea said:

I understand - with your responsibilities, the Forums would probably be a wildfire by the time you finished the video.

I'm also writing this from my phone while at work (luckily the work I'm doing at this moment affords me several minute intervals I can write here with every so often, the joys of starting functional hardware tests, waiting for results, and starting new tests right after).

Plus I have the attention span of a goldfish. Or possum. Or something. It's about ~7 minutes or something close. Despite being an engineer, if you gave me a technical manual to review I'll be passed out asleep in minutes.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Letter13

[Sitchrea]

1 minute ago, Letter13 said:

PM it to me. It'd be much appreciated if you're willing to do that.

 

2 minutes ago, Lord-Taco-the-Great said:

If you'd want me to sum it up for you I can. I want you to trust me when I say this video has good points.

God bless both of you for doing the good work. I hope we can get this situation ironed out soon. I don't want controversy in my Warframe - we're space ninjas, not politicians!

[EvilDarknessAlien]

[Eldnacpeek]

3 hours ago, Letter13 said:

PM it to me. It'd be much appreciated if you're willing to do that.

 

Thank you for being being open to taking the information, even if not presented in its original format.

[Caliboom]

It would be nice if DE did something about this or at least expressed their opinion, something definitely should be done about this.

[Sitchrea]

5 minutes ago, NullSaint said:

No, I'm not wasting an hour of my life for some whining. If there is evidence, then send it in. There are two options: DE will respond, or they won't. If you think you can create a great PR issue through MRA nonsense, knock yourself out. I can almost guarantee that it won't come out any better than any of the other attempts.

This giant thread is some about "white men" being abused. I can guarantee that isn't the case, what with my being a white male. So there are clearly other criteria involved. I can guess what those criteria are.

I don't think you understand what we're discussing, here...

[Caliboom]

Another thing. DE should also take a look at what the mods do on other websides outside of warframe as well. Like, you know, Tumblr.

[rune_me]

2 minutes ago, Sitchrea said:

Isn't that what we're doing in this thread. ((Mind you, I'm not the OP. OP can say whatever he wants.  just want an honest answer from DE.))

But DE won't read this. It's a thread in the community section of the forum, well known for not being frequented by DE staff. You are basically asking for answers from the community on something we obviously don't have the answers for.

[DatDarkOne]

2 minutes ago, Sitchrea said:

Isn't that what we're doing in this thread. ((Mind you, I'm not the OP. OP can say whatever he wants.  just want an honest answer from DE.))

Sadly, the opening post of the topic sets the tone.  This topic is at 8 pages as of this post.  It's not until after the first two or four pages that more clarity can be found.  

[NullSaint]

12 minutes ago, Ikusias said:

Then you need to rewatch the video and see how he vas being satiric,and also that the mentioned Shadow is one of the mods that he stated was risking more among the ones in the video due to racist and insulting externations... and the fact that , if he was the only one removed, it would establish a trend in which only white straight males are targeted by disciplinary measures among De "volunteers". For the record, the two moderators, one of who had until some time ago a deliberately offensive in game handle, are, from this and other material floating the net (and it wasn't the first time this informations emerged on reddit) severely opinionated against most of the warframe community demographic.

True, social media content and the like could have been faked, photoshopped or anything, but the fact that the incriminated tumblr post has been removed, that the mod in question "changed" her IG keeping the more inflammatory part, make this stink.

Still any company I have worked with in the past would have given the boot to any prospective employee or consulent with similar externations on their social media, just to avoid this kind of problems.

The wait and see approach on De side contrasts starkly with how they treated the Guide of the Lotus case, showing a clear double standard... usually with suspects like this, the involved parties are suspended and put under review until things are satisfactorily clarified, not left to their own devices, keeping at what they are doing with a chance to muddle the waters in their favour.

About Letter13: he can not and will not take a side on the issue or say anything more on the argument because, correctly, he's moderating the thread. taking a side or giving further information without his superiors say so would prejudicate his neutrality, don't badger him.

 

2 hours ago, Pent_ said:

Someone's name had a word that describes hatred for men in their name and they were promoted to a position of power. Sounds like it breaks community rules to me.

That said, that person's name was a joke. A bad one, but a joke. However, if DE is going to make us recognize that their obvious joke is okay, then our obvious jokes should be okay too. The double standard is appalling.

 

2 hours ago, Sitchrea said:

You still don't get it. We aren't discussing censorship - that's just a symptom of the larger problem.

We literally have a self-proclaimed Misandrist - who had that as their IGN - on the chat moderation team. This is just one example of appalling double standards, and frankly is unacceptable to have people like this as leaders in our community.

 

1 hour ago, Sitchrea said:

Their name was-removed-, but they changed their name to just "-removed-" after getting called out.

So yes, I wonder how this person was promoted with a name like that as well.

Here I have you twice and two other people (on your side) complaining that the problem is the fact that some mod was allegedly against men. How am I wrong? 

[Sitchrea]

Just now, DatDarkOne said:

Sadly, the opening post of the topic sets the tone.  This topic is at 8 pages as of this post.  It's not until after the first two or four pages that more clarity can be found.  

I agree that the OP was quite emotional. Still, I hope DE will see our intentions. We don't want a witch hunt - far from it. Even the OP said so, himself. What we want is assurance, clarity, on what DE plans to do about these obvious and agregious instances of abusive moderation.

[Letter13]

1 minute ago, LazerSkink said:

Thank you for being being open to taking the information, even if not presented in its original format.

Yeah, I'm not opposed to hearing (or rather, reading) the information. I just really don't have the time or focus to dedicate nearly an hour to watching a video. Though keep in mind that even if I do wind up agreeing with what's being presented, my responses to the situation likely won't change: that there are more appropriate avenues for submitting complaints about moderators than creating 2+ threads a day to complain about it. 

I do agree that moderators need to be held to a higher standard, but it's not my decision to judge another moderator's actions, especially if I do not witness said actions firsthand. The internet has made me a very skeptical person who takes everything with a boulder of salt; I am very wary about simply accepting others' claims and opinions without sufficient evidence. If I do however see another moderator overstepping their authority (that is, I myself am observing the abuse of privileges firsthand), the first thing I'd do is notify DE staff using a private message. 

[Sitchrea]

1 minute ago, NullSaint said:

 

 

 

Here I have you twice and two other people (on your side) complaining that the problem is the fact that some mod was allegedly against men. How am I wrong? 

You did not watch the video. This isn't a witch hunt against a single person - it's a problem with the system that DE has created which allows for moderators to abuse their power. The video is merely a lengthy documentation of only a few instances of power abuse, while also pointing to several double standards on DE's part. 

We're asking for assurance that DE will handle the situation, because right now we've heard nothing but a Bungie-style, "we are listening" post, and that only makes things worse as it makes DE sound like Bungie.

[Helch0rn]

3 minutes ago, rune_me said:

But DE won't read this. It's a thread in the community section of the forum, well known for not being frequented by DE staff. You are basically asking for answers from the community on something we obviously don't have the answers for.

Mods have a more direct line of communication to the responsible parties at DE than us regular forum users (at least I think so, based on my knowledge as a mod for an online game in the past).

since Based Doge Mod has, through his posts in this topic, shown that he is aware of this discussion, I believe that he will talk to whoever is in charge of this kind of thing.

[Sitchrea]

2 minutes ago, Letter13 said:

Yeah, I'm not opposed to hearing (or rather, reading) the information. I just really don't have the time or focus to dedicate nearly an hour to watching a video. Though keep in mind that even if I do wind up agreeing with what's being presented, my responses to the situation likely won't change: that there are more appropriate avenues for submitting complaints about moderators than creating 2+ threads a day to complain about it. 

I do agree that moderators need to be held to a higher standard, but it's not my decision to judge another moderator's actions, especially if I do not witness said actions firsthand. The internet has made me a very skeptical person who takes everything with a boulder of salt; I am very wary about simply accepting others' claims and opinions without sufficient evidence. If I do however see another moderator overstepping their authority (that is, I myself am observing the abuse of privileges firsthand), the first thing I'd do is notify DE staff using a private message. 

You're a good man, Letter. Glad DE picked you as a mod.

[Eldnacpeek]

3 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

Sadly, the opening post of the topic sets the tone.  This topic is at 8 pages as of this post.  It's not until after the first two or four pages that more clarity can be found.  

Yeah, editing could help. Maybe less demand, more request.

3 hours ago, NullSaint said:

Here I have you twice and two other people (on your side) complaining that the problem is the fact that some mod was allegedly against men. How am I wrong? 

It seems more to do with the fact that person was put in a position of power. Regardless of whether or not their name was a joke, DE still made them a moderator and accepted that joke for a bit before they changed the name. That makes it seem like the moderators are not put at the same standard as every other player, which is understandably alarming.

3 hours ago, Letter13 said:

Yeah, I'm not opposed to hearing (or rather, reading) the information. I just really don't have the time or focus to dedicate nearly an hour to watching a video. Though keep in mind that even if I do wind up agreeing with what's being presented, my responses to the situation likely won't change: that there are more appropriate avenues for submitting complaints about moderators than creating 2+ threads a day to complain about it. 

I do agree that moderators need to be held to a higher standard, but it's not my decision to judge another moderator's actions, especially if I do not witness said actions firsthand. The internet has made me a very skeptical person who takes everything with a boulder of salt; I am very wary about simply accepting others' claims and opinions without sufficient evidence. If I do however see another moderator overstepping their authority (that is, I myself am observing the abuse of privileges firsthand), the first thing I'd do is notify DE staff using a private message. 

That all makes sense. It's just appreciated that you're simply willing to listen at the very least.

Edited May 31, 2018 by LazerSkink

[DeMonkey]

3 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Sadly, the opening post of the topic sets the tone.  This topic is at 8 pages as of this post.  It's not until after the first two or four pages that more clarity can be found.  

This.

Whilst I actually agree with what a lot of people are saying, double standards are unacceptable, the OP is trash and sets a trash tone.

Constructive debate can be had, as is currently taking place. Gross exaggerations and demands however make a very poor show of it, and come off very witch hunty.

Honestly, the fact that this thread started off so bad and has actually reached some semblance of civil conversation warms my soul.

I blame Letter.

[NullSaint]

Just now, Sitchrea said:

You did not watch the video. This isn't a witch hunt against a single person - it's a problem with the system that DE has created which allows for moderators to abuse their power. The video is merely a lengthy documentation of only a few instances of power abuse, while also pointing to several double standards on DE's part. 

We're asking for assurance that DE will handle the situation, because right now we've heard nothing but a Bungie-style, "we are listening" post, and that only makes things worse as it makes DE sound like Bungie.

You are correct there. I have never witnessed anything of the sort, and at least one guy on YouTube who was asserting similar things (whom I suspect is in or behind this video) I have investigated to the best of my ability this claim, and do not find it credible. I have never seen any abuse by a mod, nor known anyone who experienced it. On the other hand, I have seen many, many, many posts by people getting banned for things they either 1) swear they didn't do or 2) don't think they should be banned for even though they knew they would be.

So for my part, I'm fine with oversight of the mods. But I don't think DE owes the players any information on what they do unless it is a widespread, pandemic issue. And if that were the case, the forums would be on fire, probably literally. Raising the issue is fine, and definitely worthwhile. But do so like an adult, through the proper channels. Hysterical posts are not useful, and the forums are not the place.

[Letter13]

Just now, Helch0rn said:

Mods have a more direct line of communication to the responsible parties at DE than us regular forum users (at least I think so, based on my knowledge as a mod for an online game in the past).

since Based Doge Mod has, through his posts in this topic, shown that he is aware of this discussion, I believe that he will talk to whoever is in charge of this kind of thing.

Sort of yes. A handful of us forum moderators were the first set of Guides of the Lotus (and by extension the first player chat moderators as well). We can easily contact certain members of the community team who handle higher level moderation (and in some cases, support tickets), but not much beyond that. Per the Commod FAQ, we're not (nor do we have) a hotline to the developers.

Also this topic doesn't really need to be raised to 'whoever is in charge', it's sort of already there. DE staff are aware of it. What they're discussing, deciding or doing regarding the matter though is not something I (nor other non-DE staff members) are privy to. And even if I were privy, such decisions are usually considered private and were I to divulge that information I'd be violating an NDA.