This is a serious problem.

[Sitchrea]

1 minute ago, NullSaint said:

You are correct there. I have never witnessed anything of the sort, and at least one guy on YouTube who was asserting similar things (whom I suspect is in or behind this video) I have investigated to the best of my ability this claim, and do not find it credible. I have never seen any abuse by a mod, nor known anyone who experienced it. On the other hand, I have seen many, many, many posts by people getting banned for things they either 1) swear they didn't do or 2) don't think they should be banned for even though they knew they would be.

So for my part, I'm fine with oversight of the mods. But I don't think DE owes the players any information on what they do unless it is a widespread, pandemic issue. And if that were the case, the forums would be on fire, probably literally. Raising the issue is fine, and definitely worthwhile. But do so like an adult, through the proper channels. Hysterical posts are not useful, and the forums are not the place.

I respectfully disagree and insist you watch the video in the OP. The OP did not make the video - don't be confused by the inflammatory remarks he makes. There is a serious issue with moderator accountability right now, and that is what we are bringing light on with this thread.

I apologize on behalf of the OP - his intentions were good but he did not word things in a constructive fashion.

[rune_me]

4 minutes ago, Helch0rn said:

Mods have a more direct line of communication to the responsible parties at DE than us regular forum users (at least I think so, based on my knowledge as a mod for an online game in the past).

since Based Doge Mod has, through his posts in this topic, shown that he is aware of this discussion, I believe that he will talk to whoever is in charge of this kind of thing.

That's an assumption, though. It would have been a lot easier to ask this in, say the feedback section, where DE staff actually reads and responds to post. I mean, the thread that got posted about this very topic in feedback did get replies from DE staff. So they are in fact already aware of the situation.

But there's a reason why the advice everyone, including said moderator, keeps giving is: if you have a problem open a support ticket. It really is the only way you can be absolutely sure that it will reach the staff.

[OniDax]

27 minutes ago, Letter13 said:

Yeah, I'm not opposed to hearing (or rather, reading) the information. I just really don't have the time or focus to dedicate nearly an hour to watching a video. Though keep in mind that even if I do wind up agreeing with what's being presented, my responses to the situation likely won't change: that there are more appropriate avenues for submitting complaints about moderators than creating 2+ threads a day to complain about it. 

I do agree that moderators need to be held to a higher standard, but it's not my decision to judge another moderator's actions, especially if I do not witness said actions firsthand. The internet has made me a very skeptical person who takes everything with a boulder of salt; I am very wary about simply accepting others' claims and opinions without sufficient evidence. If I do however see another moderator overstepping their authority (that is, I myself am observing the abuse of privileges firsthand), the first thing I'd do is notify DE staff using a private message. 

With all due respect, the only reason DE finally responded to years of complaints regarding moderators and their chat system is because of people creating 2+ threads a day on Reddit and the forums. It's a sad reality that DE usually only responds to issues regarding their handling of something when there's some backlash that spills over into the forums. And seeing how there has been no further comment by DE on dealing with issues regarding moderators and chat bans, this appears to the community to be yet another case of DE waiting until backlash blows over.

I agree that more threads at this point are annoying, but reporting those in positions of authority has not been particularly effective so far, and it's guaranteed to be even less effective when DE staff consider the offending moderators in question to be "friends". Community members are right to be very skeptical of DE.

 

Oh, and by the way, please watch the video, because the evidence presented there, using the words of an actual DE staff member, contradicts statements made here that behavior demonstrated outside the game aren't punished.

Edited May 31, 2018 by A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n

[NullSaint]

4 minutes ago, Sitchrea said:

I respectfully disagree and insist you watch the video in the OP. The OP did not make the video - don't be confused by the inflammatory remarks he makes. There is a serious issue with moderator accountability right now, and that is what we are bringing light on with this thread.

I apologize on behalf of the OP - his intentions were good but he did not word things in a constructive fashion.

I'll appreciate that, and agree that moderators need to be monitored. I'm still not going to watch the video, but that is not an insult or a snub. It's just too dang long. 

However, it looks like Letter is listening, so hopefully your guys concerns are answered. I don't know if they will be answered to your satisfaction (it might not be possible), but I hope it gets straightened out.

Edited May 31, 2018 by NullSaint

[xLUONG]

Wow.

[Sitchrea]

Just now, NullSaint said:

I'll appreciate that, and agree that moderators need to be monitored. I'm still not going to watch the video, but that is not an insult or a snub. It's just too dang long. 

However, it looks like Letter is listening, so hopefully your guys concerns are answered. I don't know if they will be answered to your satisfaction (it might not be possible), but I hope it gets straightened out.

Actually, since you didn't watch the video and have no idea about the circumstances surrounding this, let me ask you for an outside opinion...

Should moderators be held accountable for actions taken outside of the game (as in actions taken in-game and the forums), as in content they post on personal blogs, social media, and video-sharing sites?

I'm interested in what you have to say.

[Sitchrea]

1 minute ago, xLUONG said:

Wow.

Wow indeed.

[Eldnacpeek]

3 hours ago, NullSaint said:

and agree that moderators need to be monitored

 

I wouldn't really say monitor, it's more just treating them equally to the general playerbase. No monitoring would be needed if all of us abide by the same rules and receive the same treatment.

[Helch0rn]

2 minutes ago, Letter13 said:

Sort of yes. A handful of us forum moderators were the first set of Guides of the Lotus (and by extension the first player chat moderators as well). We can easily contact certain members of the community team who handle higher level moderation (and in some cases, support tickets), but not much beyond that. Per the Commod FAQ, we're not (nor do we have) a hotline to the developers.

Also this topic doesn't really need to be raised to 'whoever is in charge', it's sort of already there. DE staff are aware of it. What they're discussing, deciding or doing regarding the matter though is not something I (nor other non-DE staff members) are privy to. And even if I were privy, such decisions are usually considered private and were I to divulge that information I'd be violating an NDA.

ok this is very different from what I experienced, in the Game is was mod we had a direct line of communication, for very important things, to the highest ranking person on the team.

of course we also had NDAs regarding every decision we made

thanks for this insight

1 minute ago, rune_me said:

That's an assumption, though. It would have been a lot easier to ask this in, say the feedback section, where DE staff actually reads and responds to post. I mean, the thread that got posted about this very topic in feedback did get replies from DE staff. So they are in fact already aware of the situation.

But there's a reason why the advice everyone, including said moderator, keeps giving is: if you have a problem open a support ticket. It really is the only way you can be absolutely sure that it will reach the staff.

I was talking and assuming based on my own experience but have been corrected by Letter13

of course a support ticket is the best and easiest way to reach DE staff directly

[Letter13]

6 minutes ago, Helch0rn said:

ok this is very different from what I experienced, in the Game is was mod we had a direct line of communication, for very important things, to the highest ranking person on the team.

of course we also had NDAs regarding every decision we made

thanks for this insight

I mean, we have a fairly direct line to some members of the community team... but not the developers who influence the direction of the game. I can't really go out and message Steve or Scott and be "Hey buddy how's it hanging so there's this community issue..." 

Mostly which member of the community team we try to ping depends on what the nature of the issue is.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Letter13

[Sitchrea]

2 minutes ago, Letter13 said:

I mean, we have a fairly direct line to some members of the community team... but not the developers who influence the direction of the game. I can't really go out and message Steve or Scott and be "Hey buddy how's it hanging so there's this community issue..." 

Mostly which member of the community team we try to ping depends on what the nature of the issue is.

Really? Can you give us any insight into whom runs which aspect of the community?

[DeMonkey]

12 minutes ago, Sitchrea said:

Should moderators be held accountable for actions taken outside of the game (as in actions taken in-game and the forums), as in content they post on personal blogs, social media, and video-sharing sites?

Outside of peoples subjective views on this, I'd be surprised if there wasn't a legal agreement regarding this sort of thing.

Put simply my employer requires me to put on social media that my views are my own and not representative of the companies. I haven't because I simply don't care for social media, but the fact remains that the company ensure that the things I say out of work are completely separate from work.

I'm not one to judge without all the facts, so I'm not going to weigh in on Fostinator or Misan, however I would be surprised if there wasn't something similar in place.

Basically, if such an agreement exists then both should have been held to it. Things they post on social media should be their own and they should refrain from posting things that could be seen otherwise.

And if such an agreement doesn't exist, perhaps it should.

[Sitchrea]

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

Outside of peoples subjective views on this, I'd be surprised if there wasn't a legal agreement regarding this sort of thing.

Put simply my employer requires me to put on social media that my views are my own and not representative of the companies. I haven't because I simply don't care for social media, but the fact remains that the company ensure that the things I say out of work are completely separate from work.

I'm not one to judge without all the facts, so I'm not going to weigh in on Fostinator or Misan, however I would be surprised if there wasn't something similar in place.

Basically, if such an agreement exists then both should have been held to it. Things they post on social media should be their own and they should refrain from posting things that could be seen otherwise.

And if such an agreement doesn't exist, perhaps it should.

I wonder if the double standards arise from the lack of such an agreement. 

However if such an agreement does not exist, that simply proves the double standard regardless. AGGP and Misan can say whatever they want, but Fostinator held a different political view so he got the kick.

Though, Danielle did say another mod mislead her, but DE still rescinded their invitation to let Fostinator back. They still have mud on their hands for that.

[Court_Joker]

3 hours ago, rune_me said:

WHich has already been confirmed to be untrue, since people on tumbler (or moderators in chat) can not actually do anything to the bot. 

Don't know if anyone told you this, but those people are the mods

[OriVerda]

11 minutes ago, Letter13 said:

I mean, we have a fairly direct line to some members of the community team... but not the developers who influence the direction of the game. I can't really go out and message Steve or Scott and be "Hey buddy how's it hanging so there's this community issue..." 

Mostly which member of the community team we try to ping depends on what the nature of the issue is.

Not to derail the topic but hey, Letter13, haven't seen you in ages. Pretty sure you're a Moderator vet from way back even.

Good seeing you. Keep up being one of my favourite mods!

[Letter13]

12 minutes ago, Sitchrea said:

Really? Can you give us any insight into whom runs which aspect of the community?

I could, but I'm not sure if I should, as I would like to prevent the scenario of multiple users flooding specific staff members' PM inboxes with lots of duplicate complaints/messages regarding one or a few subset of issues. The best way to contact DE staff is either through the community inbox (which is reviewed by members of the community team first) or through a support ticket (which is reviewed by customer support staff first and then forwarded--if necessary--to the correct team/team member to handle the issue).

7 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Outside of peoples subjective views on this, I'd be surprised if there wasn't a legal agreement regarding this sort of thing.

Put simply my employer requires me to put on social media that my views are my own and not representative of the companies. I haven't because I simply don't care for social media, but the fact remains that the company ensure that the things I say out of work are completely separate from work.

I'm not one to judge without all the facts, so I'm not going to weigh in on Fostinator or Misan, however I would be surprised if there wasn't something similar in place.

Basically, if such an agreement exists then both should have been held to it. Things they post on social media should be their own and they should refrain from posting things that could be seen otherwise.

And if such an agreement doesn't exist, perhaps it should.

Were these moderators actual employees who were paid and bound by a contract of employment, definitely such an agreement should exist. However as all of the moderators are volunteers, DE can remove their moderation privileges at any time for any reason (or even without reason) as they wish. Most companies with 'social media agreements' for employees use them because it may be otherwise illegal to fire an employee for posting media outside of the work environment--it allows companies to legally fire someone without risk of being sued for violating freedom of speech, labor laws (firing for an invalid reason), etc... but this is a non issue for DE and moderators as previously mentioned about it being a volunteer process.

[rune_me]

2 minutes ago, Goombpaler said:

Don't know if anyone told you this, but those people are the mods

Yes. Don't know if anyone told you this, but mods has no control over the bot.

[Court_Joker]

Just now, rune_me said:

Yes. Don't know if anyone told you this, but mods has no control over the bot.

Since they are close to DE, they hold a bit more sway than you or me. They hold control because they can likely contact DE

[-.SP.-G43riel]

1 hour ago, Letter13 said:

I'm of the mind that the whole situation could be reduced to a very efficient set of sentences and/or list without watering down anything. Using an hour long video is not good evidence. A concise and to the point list or examples, sorted by who did what, is much more effective and efficient.

that's exactly what the video does, concise list of examples and evidences....

[Letter13]

4 minutes ago, Goombpaler said:

Don't know if anyone told you this, but those people are the mods

1 minute ago, Goombpaler said:

Since they are close to DE, they hold a bit more sway than you or me. They hold control because they can likely contact DE

 

We do not have any control over the bot. Only DE can alter the filter the bot uses. While we moderators can provide suggestions for things to be added to the filter (just like you or any other player can make suggestions), it is ultimately up to DE.

[Sitchrea]

1 minute ago, rune_me said:

Yes. Don't know if anyone told you this, but mods has no control over the bot.

 

Just now, Goombpaler said:

Since they are close to DE, they hold a bit more sway than you or me. They hold control because they can likely contact DE

There's a bit more to it, though. A mod was caught boasting about having influenced DE (with the help of other mods) to get anyone who said the words trap or gay auto-banned. This post was later deleted when it became incriminating. 

See the issue, here? This is just one of many examples of moderators being corrupt.

[Eldnacpeek]

3 hours ago, -.SP.-G43riel said:

that's exactly what the video does, concise list of examples and evidences....

 

It's being taken care of, not necessary to dwell on that.

[Letter13]

Just now, -.SP.-G43riel said:

that's exactly what the video does, concise list of examples and evidences....

An hour long video full of commentary and speculative statements is not condensed nor concise.

[rune_me]

Just now, Goombpaler said:

Since they are close to DE, they hold a bit more sway than you or me. They hold control because they can likely contact DE

Of course. That is what they are there for. They advice. But it is entirely up to DE to decide whether to listen to that advice or not. If something gets added to the bot, a word or a phrase, it is the result of actual staff, not moderators, making a conscious and deliberate choice to add it.

[OniDax]

1 minute ago, Letter13 said:

An hour long video full of commentary and speculative statements is not condensed nor concise.

While it is not condensed or concise and includes quite a bit of commentary, it is most certainly not speculative.