Vauban rework the reworkening, the final D20 Vauban feedback thread.

[Azamagon]

2 hours ago, D20 said:

Back to the main subject, here's an update :

I am probably going to dump that rework once again because I am not satisfied with it. After reading it again, I find like I bloated some abilities too much, and right now I am not sure what I could do to improve my ideas. I think I am go back from scratch. The core ideas will be kept, but I want to make everything more homogenous and much more simple. I would like to reach the following result :

• Something allowing you to manipulate enemy position in a precise way, in order to combo it with your other abilities, if possible in the shape of a trap because Vauban is all about deadly traps.
• Something that would help you with survivability, so Vauban becomes more viable at higher levels when enemies start to really hurt you, which will be necessary since you won't be able to spam Basilles anymore.
• Bastille, probably in a very altered form, so it doesn't outshine your other abilities but still remain the staple of Vauban's kit.
• A damageful deployable

 

Haha, what you want sounds basicly EXACTLY like my non-conservative rework! ^_^ I'll TL;DR my kit, so you can see what I mean:

• Vortex Mine - Trap which triggers when an enemy gets close enough. Functions like current Vortex when it has been triggered, but lasts only briefly (like 2 seconds). Explodes afterwards, debuffing enemies' in some way (like reducing armor+shields or whatever). 25 energy, ability #1
• Pylon - Deploys a small protective sphere (think a small Snow Globe) with limitted, but regenerative, shieldbased health AND limitted duration, but which could possibly even regenerate back even when fully destroyed (as long as it still has duration), just like how personal shields function. Grants increased reloadspeed and rate of fire when you or any ally is inside (this boost also affects his #4, the Turret). Has a placement limit of... 6 max out at once? 50 energy, ability #2
• Bastille - Basicly remains the same (although your Bastille from the rework in this thread sounds like a better version overall). Grants bulletjump bonus for allies inside it, lingering for a while after leaving it. 75 energy, ability #3
• Turret - Basicly, a technomechanical Astilla-turret emerging from the tossed ball when it lands (think Suda's landscape kind of techno-graphics for it). Has limitted health, can only place 1 or 2 at once, the turret turns moderately slowly, shoots projectiles with moderate travel time (so it has a bunch of weaknesses, which can be alleviated with the help of the rest of the kit). When thrown on the ground, Vauban could possibly manually operate it with increased rate of fire and non-hindered turning speed (but needs manual aim). Has recharging ammo, affected by Pylon's bonuses. Uses "Exalted weapon" modding (with shotgun or rifle mods?). 100 energy, ability #4

It's a kit which I feel is simplistic, non-fiddly and fitting to Warframe's fast gameplay pace, yet still providing with a great deal of varied tactical benefits... and it overall does what you just described to boot:

• Vortex Mine moves enemies (and debuffs them too)
• Pylon helps with survivability (and also works as a neat ally team amp)
• Bastille remains your main CC (and a mild mobilitybooster to account for the loss of Bounce)
• Turret is a powerful siege-like damager (which basicly functions like a Tesla, just vastly beefed up, although with some different drawbacks).

Your currently suggested kit isn't even far off from that: Vortex Mine is basicly Shredder and Tether grenade combined. Pylon is just a bit easier-to-place version of Deflector (minus the bounciness). Bastille is... Bastille. My Turret is a simplified version of your Turret.

The only thing really lost is Scrambler, and the "bouncing" of Deflector, but those effects could be added to augments, if nothing else. Take some/all of the effects from Scrambler and turn that into the augment for Vortex Mine. Take Deflector's bouncing effect as an augment/baseline effect to Pylon (enemies touching a Pylon bounces them away with great force - force altered by Ability Range - but at the cost of taking a great chunk of the Pylon's health away when that happens).

I'll... stop here, I'm just rambling in the middle of the night now. Off to bed I go! ^_^

[LascarCapable]

Il y a 1 heure, Azamagon a dit :

Haha, what you want sounds basicly EXACTLY like my non-conservative rework! ^_^ I'll TL;DR my kit, so you can see what I mean:

• Vortex Mine - Trap which triggers when an enemy gets close enough. Functions like current Vortex when it has been triggered, but lasts only briefly (like 2 seconds). Explodes afterwards, debuffing enemies' in some way (like reducing armor+shields or whatever). 25 energy, ability #1
• Pylon - Deploys a small protective sphere (think a small Snow Globe) with limitted, but regenerative, shieldbased health AND limitted duration, but which could possibly even regenerate back even when fully destroyed (as long as it still has duration), just like how personal shields function. Grants increased reloadspeed and rate of fire when you or any ally is inside (this boost also affects his #4, the Turret). Has a placement limit of... 6 max out at once? 50 energy, ability #2
• Bastille - Basicly remains the same (although your Bastille from the rework in this thread sounds like a better version overall). Grants bulletjump bonus for allies inside it, lingering for a while after leaving it. 75 energy, ability #3
• Turret - Basicly, a technomechanical Astilla-turret emerging from the tossed ball when it lands (think Suda's landscape kind of techno-graphics for it). Has limitted health, can only place 1 or 2 at once, the turret turns moderately slowly, shoots projectiles with moderate travel time (so it has a bunch of weaknesses, which can be alleviated with the help of the rest of the kit). When thrown on the ground, Vauban could possibly manually operate it with increased rate of fire and non-hindered turning speed (but needs manual aim). Has recharging ammo, affected by Pylon's bonuses. Uses "Exalted weapon" modding (with shotgun or rifle mods?). 100 energy, ability #4

It's a kit which I feel is simplistic, non-fiddly and fitting to Warframe's fast gameplay pace, yet still providing with a great deal of varied tactical benefits... and it overall does what you just described to boot:

• Vortex Mine moves enemies (and debuffs them too)
• Pylon helps with survivability (and also works as a neat ally team amp)
• Bastille remains your main CC (and a mild mobilitybooster to account for the loss of Bounce)
• Turret is a powerful siege-like damager (which basicly functions like a Tesla, just vastly beefed up, although with some different drawbacks).

Your currently suggested kit isn't even far off from that: Vortex Mine is basicly Shredder and Tether grenade combined. Pylon is just a bit easier-to-place version of Deflector (minus the bounciness). Bastille is... Bastille. My Turret is a simplified version of your Turret.

The only thing really lost is Scrambler, and the "bouncing" of Deflector, but those effects could be added to augments, if nothing else. Take some/all of the effects from Scrambler and turn that into the augment for Vortex Mine. Take Deflector's bouncing effect as an augment/baseline effect to Pylon (enemies touching a Pylon bounces them away with great force - force altered by Ability Range - but at the cost of taking a great chunk of the Pylon's health away when that happens).

I'll... stop here, I'm just rambling in the middle of the night now. Off to bed I go! ^_^

A bit bloated in effects maybe, and not sure about the Pylon and the overall balance. Would solve Vauban's issues for sure though.

I have some ideas. Means that I am going to redo everything from scratch though. I'm going to come up with that goes as simple as it can be.

Sorry for those who didn't got a reply : I did read your stuff. Can't say that I agree with all that was said, but what is coming next is going to be very different from what I posted in the OP. More simple, with more innate synergies, and that should be legitimately good.

If I post nothing else within the next three days, someone wake me up through my inbox.

[(PSN)ZeroSection]

On 2018-08-06 at 3:29 PM, D20 said:

Hey there everyone. Surprising to see a lot of answers all of sudden.

That bad adjustment during the dev stream will do that.  Not to mention your thread is one of the better written and thought out reworks on Vauban to date.

On 2018-06-10 at 5:50 AM, D20 said:

Turning deflectors into a shield moving slowly forward if you hit them with a melee weapon, knocking back all enemies hit and providing some form of mobile cover.

I wouldn't do this.  I would say keep the original idea but double the size and make it Convex shaped with a health bar thats based on armor and power strength etc.  You could add some form of synergy between the turret and shield that way.  I still want to see a little more done with Bastille, but other than that I still think this is a solid rework all around.  

On 2018-08-06 at 4:52 PM, (XB1)Nightseid said:

So real quick I like re-rework but deployment seems like something that is already repeated by volt, frost, garage and even atlas- no need for another shield or wall ability

Honestly I don't feel this is necessarily a problem.  It has a unique enough mechanic on its own merits.

On 2018-08-06 at 5:17 PM, Thaylien said:

How aboouuuut.... 'Artillery'. Vauban places a turret that launches projectiles that cause high damage in different areas of effect, with Vauban able to dictate where it fires with further presses of the ability button?

So basically like those Mortar dudes that are out in the plains?  Or the Vrush turrets?  Cause I could get down with a Mortar as well lol

 

 

[Darkuhn]

I still love this Rework and I hope DE took inspiration from it! 

[Azamagon]

21 minutes ago, Darkuhn said:

I still love this Rework and I hope DE took inspiration from it! 

Same! 🙂

I'd definitely play Vauban a LOT more if something akin to this happened. But, I'll keep my hopes low (due to what Scott said).

[Darkuhn]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb Azamagon:

But, I'll keep my hopes low

same here 😕 i wouldn't mind waiting another Week/Month for Vauban Deluxe if they would implement this Rework

[Besmooth_]

On 2018-06-03 at 8:19 PM, D20 said:

Minelayer : Toss a mine with two different effect depending of how the user pressed the ability button.

• Tapping the ability button will toss a shredder mine : the shredder mine inflict a small amount of damage upon detonating, ragdolling and reducing a the same time the enemy's armor and speed.
• Holding the ability button will toss a scrambler mine : the scrambler mine will disable the enemy's weapons, traps and robots for a brief moment upon detonating. All enemies affected will also suffer a magnetic proc and drop a random ammo pack on the ground. Also deals a small amount of damage.
• Each mine has a detonation radius and a detection radius. In order for a mine to detonate, an enemy must enter its detection radius.
• If you need to, you can manually trigger mines by attacking them. Manually triggered mines will add a small percentage of your weapon's damage to the explosion's damage.
• Debuff effect/duration of mines are doubled if the enemy has been recently hit by a tether or a deflector.
• Mines are affected by power range (detection and explosion radius), power duration (debuff durauon) and power strenght (debuff strenght).
• 25 energy.

I don't think the Minelayer should be there, since there's a deployment already.

On 2018-08-07 at 6:37 AM, Azamagon said:

Pylon - Deploys a small protective sphere (think a small Snow Globe) with limitted, but regenerative, shieldbased health AND limitted duration, but which could possibly even regenerate back even when fully destroyed (as long as it still has duration), just like how personal shields function. Grants increased reloadspeed and rate of fire when you or any ally is inside (this boost also affects his #4, the Turret). Has a placement limit of... 6 max out at once? 50 energy, ability #2

The Pylon is a great idea to replace Minelayer but few changes will be needed. It would be great to have another ability that supports the squad a lot, people would love Vauban more.

Pylon - When it's placed down, it will blast enemies away within 6m of range and in 12m of range it will spawn an glowing aura that provide buffs to allies and debuffs to enemies.

• Buffs, it will give a regeneration effect which will provide health for 75 per second and energy for 15 per second.
• Debuffs, reduces enemies armor and dmg by 10%, but when they came out of the aura the debuff will disappear in 3 seconds.
• Enemies that got blasted away are damaged by 100. (Not that painful.)
• Debuffing enemies will have a thin layer of glowy red effect.
• Pylon is affected by power range (blast radius and aura radius), power duration (Except for the enemies that came out of the aura duration.), power strength (enemies that are affected by the blast, except for the debuff and buff strength.)
• Pylon placing limits are 4 and the effects can't be stacked.
• Pylon last for 10 seconds.
• 50 energy

Edited October 3, 2018 by Besmooth_
Forgot to type how many Pylons you can place.

[Azamagon]

2 hours ago, Besmooth_ said:

The Pylon is a great idea to replace Minelayer but few changes will be needed. It would be great to have another ability that supports the squad a lot, people would love Vauban more.

Pylon - When it's placed down, it will blast enemies away within 6m of range and in 12m of range it will spawn an glowing aura that provide buffs to allies and debuffs to enemies.

• Buffs, it will give a regeneration effect which will provide health for 75 per second and energy for 15 per second.
• Debuffs, reduces enemies armor and dmg by 10%, but when they came out of the aura the debuff will disappear in 3 seconds.
• Enemies that got blasted away are damaged by 100. (Not that painful.)
• Debuffing enemies will have a thin layer of glowy red effect.
• Pylon is affected by power range (blast radius and aura radius), power duration (Except for the enemies that came out of the aura duration.), power strength (enemies that are affected by the blast, except for the debuff and buff strength.)
• Pylon placing limits are 4 and the effects can't be stacked.
• Pylon last for 10 seconds.
• 50 energy

That's... a completely different ability than mine though. With the numbers you suggested here, you simply turned it into a health- and energyregen ability with snap CC and basicly non-existant debuffing power and no defensive shielding. Let's analyze this suggested power:

• 10% damage reduction ... what's the point of such a non-existant debuff? Defensively I think people would without a doubt prefer it as a small shield á la Snow Globe... And 10% armor reduction is also basicly non-existant too. Even with lots of power strength, both of these effects would still be useless, due to how numbers have to scale in Warframe to be useful.
• Health regeneration is ok, but how does it fit Vauban? He wouldn't get much protection out of such a power himself, as he is far from a tank. Again, a protective sphere would serve him much better, while still being of use for the team.
• Energy regeneration, while incredibly powerful, no doubt, I feel is not needed as the game is already oversaturated with energy. Sure, it wouldn't be BAD, but it really isn't needed. Yet this (and the healthregen) would be the main selling points of your suggestion. I guess it could make Vauban somewhat tanky with Quick Thinking and the health regen, but I don't think that's how he ought to be played, no?
• Blasting enemies away from the centre is ok, as that would be helpful... if it had the protective sphere that is. But considering it has a debuffing AURA, why would you want enemies to potentially be moved OUT of the debuffing area (depends on the blastaway distance, ofc)?

Might sound a bit harsh, but I'm really confused; you liked my power, only to turn it into something completely different and unrelated, other than in the name of the power? I don't get it...

[(PSN)NemitheNem]

So I just built Vauban recently and I kinda fell in love with him. 

My main wish, that I remember as I am quite tired right now, is that I was very disappointed to find that I couldn't use minelayer mid air

[JesxyZ]

The only things that is bugging me with vauban is that you have to "Toss a mine/ball" for all of his abilities to work...

and the holding buttons down for abilities is just plain annoying imo, i prefer to just have a 4-core abilities that i can just tap on and it just works

Edited November 20, 2018 by JesxyZ
more info

[(XBOX)SirMilkfiend]

The dream Vauban rework in my mind:

Passive - energy Vauban spends on his abilities grants decaying armour bonuses to allies in range. 

1- raise tesla proc chance to 100. Planting tesla orbs on allied targets reduces their received damage.

Charging 2 tesla balls generates a barrier between them blocking enemy  fire and proc stunning enemies that pass through.

(Barrier ups Vaubans survivability and encourages enemies to cluster)

2- turret

Produces a stationary copy of equiped weapon with specter aiming.  Copied primary and secondary weapons have specter aim. Copied    Melee weapons taunt enemies. Up to  4 turrets can be produced.

3- bastille same except it increases damage towards enemies it captures  by 25%.

4- vortex, charge to convert it into a mine activating on enemy stepping onto it.

Refit Minelayer into a secondary weapon Vauban equips when he has no other weapon in that slot. Give it the full benefits of mods and mines consume ammo instead of energy. Alternate fire swaps mines.

Edited November 21, 2018 by (XB1)SirMilkfiend

[VoadorHolandes]

I think one of the problems with Vauban is that it's so difficult to get that nobody bothers with it. It's a shame, the primed version looks explendid. But only a few of us are crazy enough to grind 20 nitain extracts to get one of the worst frames in the game. A rework, I think, should come with diminished resource costs, but at this rate it will take a long time before he is reworked and for the prime to be released again.

That said, I'm not particularly fond of the OT's rework, even if he does nail a diagnostic into Vauban's problems. I think that any rework should have in mind late game viability which means good synergy with other party members, cc and/or beefiness to withstand enemy aggression + a good performance in these new wide open environments.

What I wouldn't like is for the frame to have too many mechanically similar skills. Notice the descriptions in the OT: "Minelayer : Toss a mine..."; "Deployments : Toss a deployable.."; "Bastille : Works the same..." (which means tossing a Bastille grenade). First, second and fourth skills have a tap and press function. The turret would accommodate a player's weapon - would it benefit from rivens? If so it would be terribly overpowered as is Khora's whip for example.

In short, I like the idea of a Turret, of keeping Bastille as it is (and without power scaling), hate tap and press mechanics and think he should have some sort of selfish defensive skill. A very rough proposal of a skillset would be:

#1: Minelayer: Tosses an explosive mine. Strips armor, ragdolls and does damage. Comes with a clear indication of the activation range.

#2: Tesla: Body becomes electrified. Zaps attacking enemies, reflects blows and projectiles and staggers aggressors (with electric status). Reduces damage done to shield. Could be duration based or similar to Nova's #1 or Nezha's #3.

#3  Bastille

#4: Turret: I think this one could work very much like Khora's pet. Tap for casting/removing, press for diferent modes (to be defined). Modded individually as a rifle (or as a sentinel?).

[Bombarder0]

His 2,its just horrible,it really needs an improvement ASAP

[Bombarder0]

Please dont let this thread die.

[WarRelic]

 Shoulder mounted Grenade launcher that locks multiple targets then fires a bunch of sticky Tesla Grenades in a barrage. ( Itzal 4)

Kind of like how Iron Man suit works. Could be a bespoke "hammerspace" grenade launcher Exalted weapon.

Ditch single mines and make an AOE mine field and turret combined, Cycle mine field types.

A Trapper / Engineer theme is what I get from Vauban.

Edited November 25, 2018 by WarRelic

[Sasquatchias]

Personally as far as reworks and such go I kind of don't want to see too major of a rework - like I want to see Tesla go and still have some major changes elsewhere, but I'd in general I sort of want Vauban's general them to remain the same as it is now, only changed so it all works better and is more suited for general gameplay. 

List of changes as examples - 

• Vauban's mines should be changed into something akin to grenades instead, with near-immediate activation upon surface / enemy contact.
• Vauban should have a strong, fast throw when using his new grenades - no more of this slow, wimpy underhanded toss that barely travels any distance and by the time it reaches it's destination you could've killed the enemy mob in front of you five times over.
• Bounce changed to a single use ability instead of a lingering pad, detonating and flinging enemies in an area around it along with allowing Vauban to throw it at his feet for a powerful grenade jump.
• Trip Laser changes into a Web Laser ability, creating a "spider-web" of lasers around the contact area that trips and tangles enemies that walk over it, leaving them face down on the ground.
• Shred should stay largely the same aside from being granted instant activation, and the damage and armor debuff values should be increased to better levels that make its worth using in higher leveled missions as a way to debuff powerful enemies.
• Concuss is given the same treatment since its pretty much free CC.

Tesla I think could stand to be reworked entirely, maybe that shoulder-mounted sentry or something multiple people bring up could be a thing, and make it a tap / hold ability where you can either keep the sentry shoulder-mounted but slightly weaker, and Holding the ability button will deploy it as a Stationary Sentry with it's own shields, health, armor and much higher damage (at the cost of it being stationary.)