Map nuking. Is it really necessary? (minor rant inc)

[sehafoc]

53 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

18 hours ago, Uskradetat said:

I love this game, I'm only 375 hours in, and I can safely say this is one the best games I've played in recent years. But this nuking S#&$ I've been gritting my teeth over since day one. Could it be toned back a tad?

You are still relatively new to the game. No offense... What Mr are you?

This exchange makes me giggle a bit.  This is probably the only game in the world where you put in 100+ hours to get to character creation.  Additionally the only one I'm aware of where this question makes any amount of sense.  

To the OP.... This game isn't about who gets to most kills... It's a loot grinder.  The game does have a lot of really fun mechanics to play with though,  if you want to explore all of those don't expect every single person in the world to sit there and relish every second of game play with you while you do it.  You can go do that by yourself, or find like minded people.  Asking people that have literally spent 2 - 10x the amount of game time as you to do things slower seems unreasonable.  Don't get me wrong,  I enjoy a bunch of these less efficient mechanics and go play with them all of the time,  but sometimes I just wanna speed run to get what ever the grind is for.  In a public party you should expect that people will have various reasons for being there.

I personally ran solo until I cleared the star chart (and had great fun stealthing around and playing with various abilities and mechanics),  nowa days it's a bit of a mix of creating parties in chat, running pub, or solo to get exactly the experience I'm looking for. 

If it's really just the ability to feel useful,  try bringing a buff, or an EV.  The DPS frames in your party will love you for it. Support frames are the real heroes of the game IMHO

I seriously mean no offense with these comments.

Edited June 11, 2018 by sehafoc

[Buttaface]

OP, you are right, and note all the fallacious responses you are getting from map nukers.

No, it absolutely is -not- necessary to map nuke to do the content and advance in the game at a reasonable pace. No grind or mission requires map nuking to complete... if the player/players in question are decent at the game. Even focus farming, the biggest grind in the game, is easy now without boring skill spam crutches.

It -is- necessary, though if 1) one is a bad or weak player of games generally and this one specifically, is too lazy to learn how to move and aim, or 2) if one has a bad computer or net connection, to use map nuking to progress. And that's why it's the way it is, bad players who need crutches have $$ too. Many better online games than WF have failed outright by being too hard for the masses.

The "must do map nuking because it's a grind game" is a façade/red herring over the above, OP. Also the "you only have X hundred hours so are just getting started" is a crock. Welcome to WF forum logic.

And the un target-capped, radial nature of many WF skills -is- a crucial flaw in this game. When enough noise is made, they do eventually change things, see Bladestorm, WOF, Peacemaker, Spore/Molt nerfs... far more are needed.

[SenorClipClop]

4 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Survivals are about killing enemies as fast as possible for as long as possible. Grinding Relics, are best done quickly. Taking time so you can get another relic that probably won't give you what you want? 

Surivals are about staying alive for as long as possible, that's it. It doesn't at all matter how much killing you do, because each reward is set at 5 minute intervals.

4 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

but the truth of the matter, that it is only really a problem in low tier content. 

 

3 hours ago, sehafoc said:

The game does have a lot of really fun mechanics to play with though,  if you want to explore all of those don't expect every single person in the world to sit there and relish every second of game play with you while you do it.  You can go do that by yourself, or find like minded people.

This thread is very similar to many other threads before it. Essentially what it boils down to is that the huge amount of power late-game players and nuker can dish out quickly, can really be hazardous to enjoyment if you're playing midgame. The OP's main point is not about playing in a certain style, it's about getting to play the game at all. It's les sabout taking time to smell the roses and more about wanting the game to be more than an Empty Hallway Simulator.

I can't speak for others, so I'll share a bit of personal history. When I was just a few hundred hours into this game, I had a bunch of decent weapons, a handful of frames and an okay Mod library. I could take on some missions solo but lacked the confidence to do so on levels higher than 15ish. Some missions were impossible without help (Hijack, Interception etc). I had gotten to the end of the Starchart but was far from completing it. Playing Solo wasn't really an option in most game modes. I would try to matchmake for a squad, but any mission that wasn't an Alert could take a long time to find even one person willing to help me, and usually I couldn't find anyone. So matchmaking wasn't really an option either. My only other option was to play Public. This sometimes ended up as me playing Solo, but very often when a squad arrived there'd be this MR 20-something with maxed-out builds, doing the entire mission by themself faster than the rest of the squad could move, and I wouldn't get to play. This was even more of an issue in Alerts since players at all levels want those rewards. High-MR "carries" got the mission done faster, but I wanted to actually play the mission and only needed a comrade, not someone to carry me. At this phase of the game, I was forced to go out of my way and wait for ages to recruit people at my level, frustrate myself on a Solo run in a co-op game, or run a high likelihood of having the mission done for me in public and not getting to play at all.

The rub here is that the scaling of character power in a linear fashion matched with the static difficulty of the missions, makes for tons of situations where some players are far stronger than the mission calls for, and then other players are left with no game to play.

Solutions to this coul include matching players with similar MR, or allowing players tonset the size of their Public squad.

 

[Checht]

Map nuking isn't necessary for Warframe. The grind in Warframe is actually already a lot better than most other p2w MMOs. Like OP said, I'd rather play 2 hours of fun gameplay to get something than boringly spam a button for 20 minutes to get the same thing. You play the game to have fun, not mindlessly press one button to grind, we have mobile games for that. 

DE has been addressing these issues recently, see Ember, Banshee (though still nuking), Saryn, Wukong, Trinity. They're heading in the right direction IMO. Hopefully DE carries through and address any other cheese nuke tactics as well. 

[Wordse]

2 minutes ago, Checht said:

Map nuking isn't necessary for Warframe. The grind in Warframe is actually already a lot better than most other p2w MMOs. Like OP said, I'd rather play 2 hours of fun gameplay to get something than boringly spam a button for 20 minutes to get the same thing. You play the game to have fun, not mindlessly press one button to grind, we have mobile games for that. 

DE has been addressing these issues recently, see Ember, Banshee (though still nuking), Saryn, Wukong, Trinity. They're heading in the right direction IMO. Hopefully DE carries through and address any other cheese nuke tactics as well. 

Because you don't enjoy playing that way does not mean that no one does. I play this game to have fun spamming one button on solo missions is fun, Grinding quickly is fun.

[Checht]

1 minute ago, Wordse said:

Because you don't enjoy playing that way does not mean that no one does. I play this game to have fun spamming one button on solo missions is fun, Grinding quickly is fun.

If you can enjoy spamming one button, all the best to you. I just find it hard to find any fun in doing something that doesn't have any challenge. 

[Wordse]

Just now, Checht said:

If you can enjoy spamming one button, all the best to you. I just find it hard to find any fun in doing something that doesn't have any challenge. 

I suppose its a matter of enjoying the experience more than the results. Cheers.

[Melster]

On ‎2018‎-‎06‎-‎10 at 8:38 AM, Uskradetat said:

This is just not an enjoyable experience in the least for anybody besides the person killing everything. It's not about the focus, affinity, damage or whatever. It's about the fact there is barely anything left for anyone else to do. And it's not a rare occurrence as we all know, we all run into these builds in every other match we join and they just suck the fun out of it. 

You are wrong with that. Most People at higher ranks don't use nuke Frames for fun. The Point is they have probably done this kind of mission thousands of times and only do it for the rewards. The faster it end or the less effort I have to take the better it is.I really can't understand why there are people who are against nuking, I'm always happy if there is someone who does the work for me.

Beside that you said you want to play with others but you don't like like the way other people play. You have to choose one.

[Uskradetat]

OK. This got quite a few more responses than I had anticipated so I feel I should clear a few things up. 

I don't think I was very clear in my original post, if you're in a Hydron group and wish to clear the waves quicker, go wild. Nobody really wants to be there, we all just want to level our stuff and leave. This is not the issue. It's content where you're actually trying to have a good time where I'm finding this to be the biggest problem.

Something I've seen said a few times is this is just lowbie star-chart content, where it's expected a higher MR player could just come in and nuke the map. But this is not the content I'm talking about. I'm talking 150+ enemies where this is still a problem. Let me explain.

Me personally, I love survival. Survival is my jam. Now when I do survival, I like to look for a little more of a challenge so I prefer to do 1-2 hour long survivals/fissures, where the enemies are quite a bit tougher than your regular star-chart enemies. Now, as I stated previously, I am a new player. I've only been playing since March, haven't really found a clan yet, not even 400 hours in and am just a lowly MR 18 newbie. I've never even fought an Eidolon. So for me, this is challenging content, this is where I like to have fun. With other players. I feel I should stress that, I enjoy the social aspect of the game. yes, I  could just do it solo, but that takes a lot of the fun out of it
.
Now, I understand this content is not particularly difficult for most of you older players, you look down at me with my low level enemies whilst you sit upon your bleeding throne constructed of the skulls of the lvl 1000+ enemies which you've massacred simply by looking in the general direction of.

However, I feel entire hordes of enemies of this caliber should not be wiped out in mere seconds by a drunk with power Saryn and her ever scaling spores. A great example of this would be an endless Hydron fissure I did the other day, where even 50 waves in we were running into the issue of Saryn wiping the map too quickly and the chances of us actually getting enough reactant was looking pretty sketchy. The power level of such a frame is absolutely insane, as even I, who had never even played Saryn was able to quickly look up a build and replicate this by simply pressing 1 and 4. This is not engaging, nor rewarding game-play for myself or those around me. This is even more dull in a timed setting such as survivals where it doesn't really matter how fast you kill things, you're waiting 5 minutes for your reward regardless. 

Another example would be frames and/or abilities which require a little setup i.e. Ash and his Bladestorm when marking targets and suddenly everything is dead before you finish, or Harrow when you've just buffed yourself up and suddenly there are no enemies left standing to attack you during Covenant etc

I think SenorClipClop said it well 

4 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

This thread is very similar to many other threads before it. Essentially what it boils down to is that the huge amount of power late-game players and nuker can dish out quickly, can really be hazardous to enjoyment if you're playing midgame. The OP's main point is not about playing in a certain style, it's about getting to play the game at all. It's les sabout taking time to smell the roses and more about wanting the game to be more than an Empty Hallway Simulator.

Coming from a new player: this is the new player experience. It's a wonder people stick around when you spend the first hundred hours running around behind the mr20 something looting while he nukes the living sh!t out of everything. It's fun at first.. then you find yourself bored because you haven't had a chance to do anything yourself but you still want to play with other people. 

I don't know what the solution is, but it feels like you're absolutely useless to your squad if you're not nuking everything or buffing the guy who is nuking everything. 


Now before I get hit with "if you don't like nukes, don't bring them to your squad" As I said before, there is a very fine line between fun and efficiency. I'm not going to outright gimp myself and my entire group just because I don't like these frames. If it's the Most efficient way of doing something, I'm not stupid, I'm going to bring one because I want to use my time efficiently. It just (IMO) shouldn't be the single most efficient way of doing things. Which is why I ask, Map nuking. Is it really necessary?  Could we not have a more engaging way of doing things which is just as efficient? 

Edited June 11, 2018 by Uskradetat

[Klokwerkaos]

On 2018-06-10 at 1:38 AM, Uskradetat said:

"If you don't like it, just leave the match." Leave every other match? it's difficult enough to find squads half the time in my region, let alone finally getting into say an ESO for example, just to leave and re-queue because of one of these frames 

Play solo or start your own group... OR... realize you don't get to control how other players enjoy the game.

The end.

And...

Yes it's necessary for ESO.

This is the problem: You aren't at that power level, you can't keep up, so you get frustrated rather than being grateful and picking up your free loot.  Go pick up your free loot and one day you can run min/max god tier builds.

On 2018-06-10 at 1:53 AM, Dawson1917 said:

Nuking is the only reason I can stand doing anything in this grindfest the single most enjoyable thing in this game for me.

For me I find it enjoyable first efficient second.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Klokwerkaos

[Uskradetat]

Just now, Klokwerkaos said:

This is the problem: You aren't at that power level, you can't keep up, so you get frustrated rather than being grateful and picking up your free loot.

The point of this entire thread has clearly gone over your head. I don't care about the free loot, I just want to be able to play the game (with other people) rather than standing around doing nothing cause everything is dying the second it spawns. This is not a debate about whether people should be able to do this, it's about whether this mind-numbing play-style should be the most efficient way. 

[Klokwerkaos]

2 minutes ago, Uskradetat said:

The point of this entire thread has clearly gone over your head. I don't care about the free loot, I just want to be able to play the game (with other people) rather than standing around doing nothing cause everything is dying the second it spawns. This is not a debate about whether people should be able to do this, it's about whether this mind-numbing play-style should be the most efficient way. 

Oh no, I really don't think so.  I think I read your words EXACTLY as you posted them.

I think what happened was I explained why your argument is bad and you only want people to agree with you so you are disregarding my argument out of hand.  That's not how debate works, sorry, not sorry.  You also proposed no meaningful solutions, just ranted that you didn't like something.

You have the burden of proof because you made an assertion.

You can't prove your solution works better, largely because you didn't provide one, you just complained.

I however, did provide you three solutions, all of which are readily available and you ignored them all because I didn't agree with you.

I'm going to chalk this up to you are unreasonable and not capable of having a reasoned debate and let that sit as my final word until you can address each of the things I've pointed out.

Have a nice one!

 

[Uskradetat]

21 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

Play solo or start your own group... OR... realize you don't get to control how other players enjoy the game.

Did you not read past what you wanted to use in your counter post? I've already addressed this, I want to play with other people. It's an MMO. I don't always like to host due to lag impeding other peoples game play, even when I do host I said I will bring these frames nonetheless due to being the most efficient way. My problem is that it is the most efficient way, to just nuke everything. I don't have any desire to control how people play, as I don't want them to control how I play. I just don't agree such a way to play should be the most optimal.
 

25 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

Yes it's necessary for ESO.

Yes, the entire game-mode is about killing everything as fast as possible to keep efficiency up. However, having a single frame dominate the entire game-mode while rest of the squad follows behind buffing her doesn't make for fun and engaging game-play which is my entire point. Yes it's efficient, but that doesn't make it anymore fun
 

29 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

Go pick up your free loot and one day you can run min/max god tier builds.

I already can/have run these "god tier builds" which I've stated in my previous post that you appear to have failed to read. I don't personally enjoy it. I find pressing 1-2 buttons clearing the map dull and not at all engaging game-play. And I can safely assume that by people asking me stop nuking or by just straight up leaving the match after a few minutes of it, I'm not the only one who feels this way. It's not fun, for me or others. (unless you're into doing nothing while you play, in which case idk what to say)

And no, I didn't give any meaningful solution because I simply don't have one, I already stated this, once again in the post you neglected to fully comprehend before you got a little triggered that I don't personally like the way you play the game, the same way you clearly don't enjoy the way I like playing. You enjoy mindlessly depressing a single key for an hour, I enjoy being a little more engaged and using all the things I have at my disposal. It's okay, we can be different. I just personally don't think your preferred way of playing the game should be the most efficient way as that means I am more or less forced to play that way or else I'm just putting myself at a disadvantage by having more fun which if anything is entirely a flaw in the games design. 

Did that address your points? 

[Uskradetat]

In closing; I don't care people like the play the game like this. I just care that this is the most efficient way to play. If anything, it's just disappointing that so much work has gone into the game, especially the Warframes and weapons just to have this be most efficient way to play and everything else is just pushed to that side because it's a waste of time.

[Klokwerkaos]

2 minutes ago, Uskradetat said:

Did you not read past what you wanted to use in your counter post? I've already addressed this, I want to play with other people. It's an MMO. I don't always like to host due to lag impeding other peoples game play, even when I do host I said I will bring these frames nonetheless due to being the most efficient way. My problem is that it is the most efficient way, to just nuke everything. I don't have any desire to control how people play, as I don't want them to control how I play. I just don't agree such a way to play should be the most optimal.

And you can still put your own group together, or get over it.

You know, i don't like how a lot of people play in a lot of missions, so you know what I do?  I put my own group together.  You have failed to relay why this is impossible for you but possible for every other player, while ignoring that this is necessary as a playstyle for various reasons such as ESO, power fantasy (the stated point of the game from the devs) and the fact that people won't continue to play unless they have endless slogs towards more power, which means frankly, you can't balance content for anyone but the LCD, meaning YOU, which means the rest of us can't be properly challenged by most content because we already earned our stripes.  The solution, based on DE's stated MO, is that YOU up YOUR GAME.  Git Gud.

5 minutes ago, Uskradetat said:

Yes, the entire game-mode is about killing everything as fast as possible to keep efficiency up. However, having a single frame dominate the entire game-mode while rest of the squad follows behind buffing her doesn't make for fun and engaging game-play which is my entire point. Yes it's efficient, but that doesn't make it anymore fun

According to you, I happen to like either destroying everything or letting someone else be the hero and collecting my free loot, and you know, you could play one of the damage frames too, there are tons, if you choose not to that's a choice, so no sympathy there.  You're playing the game mode inefficiently, and that's a choice, and one you are free to exercise by putting your own groups together.

 

8 minutes ago, Uskradetat said:

I already can/have run these "god tier builds" which I've stated in my previous post that you appear to have failed to read. I don't personally enjoy it. I find pressing 1-2 buttons clearing the map dull and not at all engaging game-play. And I can safely assume that by people asking me stop nuking or by just straight up leaving the match after a few minutes of it, I'm not the only one who feels this way. It's not fun, for me or others. (unless you're into doing nothing while you play, in which case idk what to say)

Yes, I enjoy letting someone else grinding my focus for me sometimes, and getting my radiant relics for me.  I've played the game enough to understand clearly that as the game progresses, like most every other MMO under the sun, that it gets easier.  That's what DE is selling, they have said as much openly, repeatedly and recently.

 

9 minutes ago, Uskradetat said:

And no, I didn't give any meaningful solution because I simply don't have one,

And this is why I can't take your argument seriously.  You're just complaining.  Work on a solution, then post, rather than just being another mindless person ranting on an internet forum about things you don't like.  The internet has plenty of that.  They've already nerfed almost every frame into the ground for you, what more do you want?  Everyone to be equal?  Go play Destiny 2 if you want that kind of generic crap.

11 minutes ago, Uskradetat said:

already stated this, once again in the post you neglected to fully comprehend before you got a little triggered that I don't personally like the way you play the game, the same way you clearly don't enjoy the way I like playing. You enjoy mindlessly depressing a single key for an hour, I enjoy being a little more engaged and using all the things I have at my disposal. It's okay, we can be different. I just personally don't think your preferred way of playing the game should be the most efficient way as that means I am more or less forced to play that way or else I'm just putting myself at a disadvantage by having more fun which if anything is entirely a flaw in the games design. 

I don't appreciate that you are projecting that I'm triggered because I dismantled your arguments entirely and didn't take your rant seriously and endorse it.

And you're right, we are allowed to like different things, WOO HOO!  Thank god for that.  And if you think this is a flaw, rather than a feature, you might want to consider that DE has said, often, repeatedly and recently, that they are selling a power fantasy.  That's the point.  If you don't like it then you don't like the entire point of the game from the Dev MO, and that's more of you issue I think, rather than a game design one, being that the point of their design was to deliver that.

13 minutes ago, Uskradetat said:

Did that address your points? 

Not adequately, no.

I think you have a lot to learn about how to construct and present constructive feedback, and how to debate a point.  You use rhetoric, fallacy and seem to be proud of that, rather than embarrassed.

Beyond thinking your idea is terrible, I do have a solution that is pretty simple, but it has it's own flaws too, so there is that, but no, you can't have it, because you can come up with your own solutions to support your own arguments since you're presumably an adult.

 

 

 

[Uskradetat]

I've said all I have to say on the matter, stated how I feel and why I feel that way. Take it as you will, but we just have two different perspectives. Yourself as someone who has played for quite a while and has most likely found and surrounded yourself by like-minded people, and I as someone who has just come into the game and am expressing what my opinion/ newbie experience has been thus far. (this entire post has just been my opinion based on the experiences I've had, and those I'm spoken to)

I genuinely don't know how else to word this without you again taking it the wrong way. it's like talking to a rock.

[Kainosh]

Recently i play LOTS of Titanfall2 Defense.

 Its pretty similar to Warframe's defense.... Amount of enemies is almost same....And  "map nukes" are present.  Parcour....fancy weapons.... 

   But there is one MASSIVE difference -  Abilities and nukes are either hard to perform or have cooldowns.     Enemy AI is also smart enough to dodge and avoid AOEs. 

 

That makes it far more entertaining than Warframe.  And i still enjoy it even though there is no loot at all...

Warframe is different.  Its not as fun....but you get loot.  So you just sit there, spamming your infinite powers. For loot.   If you have all the loot...you get bored real fast. 

 

 

So yeah....I agree.   We need a change to how available abilities are.  

[Buttaface]

5 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

 it's necessary for ESO.

This is the problem: You aren't at that power level, you can't keep up, so you get frustrated rather than being grateful and picking up your free loot.  Go pick up your free loot and one day you can run min/max god tier builds.

For me I find it enjoyable first efficient second.

What a crock. No, as a matter of fact and not opinion, no content in the game requires aoe spam clearing to complete... none, provided players have some skill. And no, players should not be "grateful" for anyone depriving them of fun in the game and just "pick up the loot." "The end."

OP, you haven't even seen the worst of it yet. It's not the map clearing that kills everything in low-mid missions that is the worst aspect of radial AOE and other poor frame power design, it's the overwhelming number of players who use their skills incorrectly or built incorrectly to pad their kill count in early rounds at the expense of fun and engaging play for the whole team, and end up slowing down higher level missions with them and making them boring and annoying.

DE continually compounds the problem, latest is the Khora max range cage that kills everything in the lower levels, then a little later, turns the match into a sidegame of "hit the spinning piñata" over and over and over. Wretched design, should not even be in the game. Can't wait to see how they mess up the vampire frame in this respect, it will likely be something along the lines of "no you can't kill these mobs for 45 seconds and end the round because they are part of my undead army! TROLOLOL!"

Here are some "joys" for you to look forward to, in no particular order: Noob/troll Inaros using its two when unnecessary to prevent the team from killing OR Noobnaros spamming sandstorm that doesn't kill the mobs, just makes them hard to kill for the rest of the team. Noob/troll Nyx long duration mind controlling the last mob and then refusing to turn it off, or spamming its 3 when unnecessary. Nooberon spamming its 4 on infested that are radiation resistant and then sit back in the spawns fighting each other instead of coming to the team. On that note, any frame hallway heroing out of affinity range, then dying far from the team. Laser noob/trolls who kill their teammates in void defense and try to cause a wipe. Noobs who go in missions and sit and fire down one hall, totally oblivious to the rest of the team. Noobnekros overusing army of the dead when unnecessary reducing the team's overall weapon DPS substantially due to aiming problems. Noobtrin spamming 1 and making it hard to kill mobs. Noobvolt bringing its "max speed power strength" capture rush build to other missions and speeding up the team so much they can't function well unless they stand still. The list goes on and on and on, could be pages and pages long, including the whole range of bad AOE spam. The reason play in this game is so poor is that DE allows it, may even encourage it. "Get good... or just pay plat for a crutch frame with crutch powers you can spam and troll with at the same time!"

All of these public team issues could be remedied, and relatively easily.

But that is all justified, and shouldn't be fixed, you just have to put up with it or leave the mission, because... ESO is hard and requires skill to do well... or easy map spam cheeze. Make sense? No, of course it doesn't.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Buttaface

[Wordse]

 

2 hours ago, Kainosh said:

Recently i play LOTS of Titanfall2 Defense.

 Its pretty similar to Warframe's defense.... Amount of enemies is almost same....And  "map nukes" are present.  Parcour....fancy weapons.... 

   But there is one MASSIVE difference -  Abilities and nukes are either hard to perform or have cooldowns.     Enemy AI is also smart enough to dodge and avoid AOEs. 

That makes it far more entertaining than Warframe.  And i still enjoy it even though there is no loot at all...

Warframe is different.  Its not as fun....but you get loot.  So you just sit there, spamming your infinite powers. For loot.   If you have all the loot...you get bored real fast.

So yeah....I agree.   We need a change to how available abilities are.  

I dunno watching your hard work in mods and seeing huge numbers is pretty awesome even if the loot is not an reward being powerful all the time rules

 

5 hours ago, Uskradetat said:

The point of this entire thread has clearly gone over your head. I don't care about the free loot, I just want to be able to play the game (with other people) rather than standing around doing nothing cause everything is dying the second it spawns. This is not a debate about whether people should be able to do this, it's about whether this mind-numbing play-style should be the most efficient way. 

Mind numbing? Anyway I am curious what would be the alternative? If you made using the smaller scale abilities and weapons the most efficient way you'd have to make all the loot way easier to obtain and remove the grind entirely or speed up game play by 1000000X to keep up with that pace.

[Buttaface]

2 hours ago, Kainosh said:

But there is one MASSIVE difference -  Abilities and nukes are either hard to perform or have cooldowns.     Enemy AI is also smart enough to dodge and avoid AOEs. 

That makes it far more entertaining than Warframe.  And i still enjoy it even though there is no loot at all...

Warframe is different.  Its not as fun....but you get loot.  So you just sit there, spamming your infinite powers. For loot.   If you have all the loot...you get bored real fast. 

Have been thinking of trying that game. It is ridiculous that WF does not have significant cooldowns, range caps and target caps on most of its frame powers like better games do. They are -inching- in that direction with the spam limits in Onslaught, and one can hope that lots of restrictions will be implemented in Venus. There should be at least a -few- PvE game modes that actually require skill and not power spamming/rote script memorization to complete in a game as broad as WF.

 

[GrimmMonsoon.ttv]

13 hours ago, Buttaface said:

OP, you are right, and note all the fallacious responses you are getting from map nukers.

No, it absolutely is -not- necessary to map nuke to do the content and advance in the game at a reasonable pace. No grind or mission requires map nuking to complete... if the player/players in question are decent at the game. Even focus farming, the biggest grind in the game, is easy now without boring skill spam crutches.

It -is- necessary, though if 1) one is a bad or weak player of games generally and this one specifically, is too lazy to learn how to move and aim, or 2) if one has a bad computer or net connection, to use map nuking to progress. And that's why it's the way it is, bad players who need crutches have $$ too. Many better online games than WF have failed outright by being too hard for the masses.

The "must do map nuking because it's a grind game" is a façade/red herring over the above, OP. Also the "you only have X hundred hours so are just getting started" is a crock. Welcome to WF forum logic.

And the un target-capped, radial nature of many WF skills -is- a crucial flaw in this game. When enough noise is made, they do eventually change things, see Bladestorm, WOF, Peacemaker, Spore/Molt nerfs... far more are needed.

Hi! I’m someone who plays both styles - map nuking and non-nuking. It greatly depends on my time available, what the purpose is of the mission I’m doing, what I need, etc. 

As an adult with real life responsibilities sometimes I only have an hour to play, but a new prime frame has come out and I need relics fast, so I take Equinox to Io for Meso and Neo relics. Can do 40 waves in less than ten minutes. That is straight up efficient. 

And let’s face it, you’re never guaranteed to get the relics, parts, mods, etc you need each rotation or each time you open a relic. So you need to get stuff done FAST. 

“But that just makes you an unskilled player” or to directly quote you “one is a bad or weak player of games generally and this one specifically, is too lazy to learn how to move and aim.” That’s such a cop out. There is no mission type I couldn’t complete with Gara, Mirage, Ivara, Zephyr and many others. I consider myself a very skilled player. Sometimes I like to take my merry time playing missions, but other times I just want to get it done quickly. 

 

“No grind or mission requires map nuking”. Technically you’re correct. Absolutely 100%. However, I challenge you to complete 40 waves of Io to get exact relics you need, then get the exact parts from said relics you need, in an hour. 

 

“You don’t need this stuff that quickly” is probably gonna be your response. And again you’re correct. However! Every time a new prime frame is released they sell for over 300p within the first couple of days. That’s easy plat! 

On another point one of the biggest hypocritical points I see when it comes to this topic is “you’re restricting how I want to play” and always the solution is to restrict how others want to play. 

 

I loathe Frost globe players with a passion and wish the redundant, hindering ability would be deleted for good. However I don’t go posting on here asking for Frost players to not use an ability. 

[Buttaface]

3 minutes ago, GrimMonsoon said:

“You don’t need this stuff that quickly” is probably gonna be your response. And again you’re correct. However! Every time a new prime frame is released they sell for over 300p within the first couple of days. That’s easy plat! 

On another point one of the biggest hypocritical points I see when it comes to this topic is “you’re restricting how I want to play” and always the solution is to restrict how others want to play. 

 

No, my response is going to be that extreme exaggerations in your post such as "doing 40 waves in ten minutes" invalidate or severely detract from the points you are attempting.

The second sentence is a different kind of absurdity, analogous to "having community noise regulations prevent me from playing my music at 150 decibels." As a matter of fact, the game mechanics restrict how others want to play generally, and to meet absurdity with absurdity, why not just have a single button press that ends the mission and gives the reward? If that's how someone "wants to play" why is it right to restrict them?

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

22 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

Surivals are about staying alive for as long as possible, that's it. It doesn't at all matter how much killing you do, because each reward is set at 5 minute intervals.

At this is factually wrong. 

Survival missions require you to kill enemies to get life support. You don't kill fast enough, you won't have enough life support to continue the mission. Taking too long, and you will run out. 

Ran out of life support, Couldn't continue the mission any longer then I already had, as I hit enemy scaling I could no longer kill in a timely manner. 
 

22 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

This thread is very similar to many other threads before it. Essentially what it boils down to is that the huge amount of power late-game players and nuker can dish out quickly, can really be hazardous to enjoyment if you're playing midgame. The OP's main point is not about playing in a certain style, it's about getting to play the game at all. It's les sabout taking time to smell the roses and more about wanting the game to be more than an Empty Hallway Simulator.

Which is why there are multiple options to play the game. You can play the game solo, friends only, or invite only. Allowing players to choose their experience. Public games, are open to everyone. Telling somebody they can't bring something to a public game, is completely wrong. It's Public. Public is helpful as it lets stronger players help lower players get through missions, and Warframe has more then one way to have fun. 
 

 

22 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

I can't speak for others, so I'll share a bit of personal history. When I was just a few hundred hours into this game, I had a bunch of decent weapons, a handful of frames and an okay Mod library. I could take on some missions solo but lacked the confidence to do so on levels higher than 15ish. Some missions were impossible without help (Hijack, Interception etc). I had gotten to the end of the Starchart but was far from completing it. Playing Solo wasn't really an option in most game modes. I would try to matchmake for a squad, but any mission that wasn't an Alert could take a long time to find even one person willing to help me, and usually I couldn't find anyone. So matchmaking wasn't really an option either. My only other option was to play Public. This sometimes ended up as me playing Solo, but very often when a squad arrived there'd be this MR 20-something with maxed-out builds, doing the entire mission by themself faster than the rest of the squad could move, and I wouldn't get to play. This was even more of an issue in Alerts since players at all levels want those rewards. High-MR "carries" got the mission done faster, but I wanted to actually play the mission and only needed a comrade, not someone to carry me. At this phase of the game, I was forced to go out of my way and wait for ages to recruit people at my level, frustrate myself on a Solo run in a co-op game, or run a high likelihood of having the mission done for me in public and not getting to play at all.

Little story about me, I've been a solo player since the game came out. Besides 2-3 friends I play with occasionally, I was a lone wolf. When a mission was too hard, and I didn't want help or couldn't get help, I adjusted my strategies forma-ed my weapons went out there and got it done. 

Yet no single warframe in the game, can nuke an entire map, say maybe the smaller interception missions. Yet switching to a frame such as Nova, Chroma, Sleep Equinox, Limbo, Frost etc can easily solo those kind of missions. It's duplicitous for you to ask for help, then not like the help you get. If somebody is doing the majority of the work, then try to keep up. There's a saying that beggars can't be choosers. 

Your idea to set Mr is largely meaningless. As Mr doesn't indicate power. A MR 8+ who doesn't bother collecting guns, and just forma's and focus builds a certain frame or weapon can easily trivialize content as much as a Mr 20. 

 

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

19 hours ago, Uskradetat said:

Something I've seen said a few times is this is just lowbie star-chart content, where it's expected a higher MR player could just come in and nuke the map. But this is not the content I'm talking about. I'm talking 150+ enemies where this is still a problem. Let me explain.

Did you mean level 150 enemies? Cause Just fyi- 

Saryn is currently strongest solo. And after level 150, Ancient Disruptors will reduce and ignore most of her damage by -90% of it. Grinner will have enough armor and damage to easily burst Saryn down and Corpus bubbles will completely protect and actively stop spores having them lose their damage. 

Saryn also loses damage between waves. Her spore damage takes time to build up, and lose damage quickly. So nuking level 150+ enemies? You either run into the perfect god builds of Saryn every day, or you are exaggerating, and are talking about level 50 enemies. 

Seeing as most teams, in the leaderboards right now, aren't over 30... as enemies just do to much damage. 

 

[(PSN)VaNiDgE]

I hear and see complaints similar to this in a lot of co-operative multiplayer type games. Basically people not playing to a particular person liking, the best thing to do is to put things into private or get in with a group that plays in the same style as you. 

Once you get to the point where grinding is a huge chore nuking the entire map might seem that more appealing.

But i get it, i really do. I often get into defense type mission with whole ares killed before i get a chance and sometimes you just sit, but hey at least you are getting materials items for just doing nothing. i say go with the flow or make your own team. 

When i first started warframe as a lowly Excalibur i use to get angry that people would just skip the entire level and not take the time to open up boxes to get materiel and credits. i use to think "why are people in such a hurry?", So i put it in solo and just took my sweet time, after doing this for many hours and leveling up i soon realized what people were doing and i soon did the same thing.

Edited June 12, 2018 by (PS4)VaNiDgE