Limbo Stasis Rework Inc

[LupisV0lk]

6 hours ago, (PS4)lagrue said:

Thank the Orokin.  It's about damn time this intrusive garbage was fixed.

Limbo = bad and yet every other no kill for you nuker is a-okay. Oh Warframe Community~

[TzXtetriC]

I see a lot of people rage because they can't use their gun with stasis. Did you know you can use that weapon you also carry on your back everywhere called melee? Why carry a melee around when you can't even use it in a 4 min mission and move on to another thing? The beauty of this game is that its not only shooting like some obsessed ppl here think.

Well at least now I can use limbo and not scare QQers to leave the mission. Wasn't using him to avoid them.

[(PSN)N7_Dredgen]

 

3 hours ago, LupisV0lk said:

Limbo = bad and yet every other no kill for you nuker is a-okay. Oh Warframe Community~

Nice false equivalence.  Getting stuck behind a nukeframe vs Limbo's power actually full on taking away 2 weapons are not the same thing, nor are they remotely comparable.  I've seen this stupid argument countless times in the last 3 years and you're convincing nobody but yourself.  It's always funny to see Stasis defenders pull this out because they don't realize the logical fallacy they're committing, and why they lose the argument before it goes anywhere passed their comment.

Limbo's stasis was the most intrusive ability ever and now it's been fixed - but of course you don't like that because they tacked on a nerf which even think was overboard.  You will never convince me it was a good thing that he could stop 3 other humans from using 2/3 of their arsenal - on the reverse, I think most logical people could make a compelling argument for why we use nuke frame in a goddamned loot based horde shooter where killing more faster is almost always ideal.  

The thing is your moaning about nuke frames is nothing more than l2p issues, you can do what they do if you wanted to - what Limbo does is genuinely intrusive design and no other frame but Limbo could do.  

The day my nuking stops you from using your weapons, like genuinely takes that ability away - then you can throw out your S#&$ty false equivalence.   Until then keep in mind you can still shoot at any given time, there's just nothing left alive for you to hit because you're too slow - learn to get fast and kill faster.
 

Edited June 12, 2018 by (PS4)lagrue

[LupisV0lk]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)lagrue said:

The day my nuking stops you from using your weapons, then you can throw out your S#&$ty false equivalence. 

Oh hai World of Fire Ember.

[(PSN)N7_Dredgen]

Just now, LupisV0lk said:

Oh hai World of Fire Ember.

World of Fire didn't stop you from shooting - it just killed before you did.  Realistically you could shoot your guns in the air and still had full control of your kit.  Limbo wasn't even affording people that much.

Again, false equivalence.  

Edited June 12, 2018 by (PS4)lagrue

[(PSN)Yes-Man-Kablaam]

Tbh unless they change this this'll be kinda busted. Friendly gunfire stopping was a frustrating but fair trade off when you stop all enemies now it's just the cheese button. So i expect something to happen.

[TzXtetriC]

34 minutes ago, (PS4)lagrue said:

World of Fire didn't stop you from shooting - it just killed before you did.  Realistically you could shoot your guns in the air and still had full control of your kit.  Limbo wasn't even affording people that much.

Again, false equivalence.  

As you say, you could also fire your gun in the air with stasis, it just stopped the bullets trajectory but you could still have  control of your other kits... i.e melee, skills, other guns to shoot in the air or make bullet patters for your pleasure.

[(PSN)N7_Dredgen]

8 minutes ago, TzXtetriC said:

As you say, you could also fire your gun in the air with stasis, it just stopped the bullets trajectory but you could still have  control of your other kits... i.e melee, skills, other guns to shoot in the air or make bullet patters for your pleasure.

Right maybe this example will sort out the difference a little more clearly.

With Limbo if stasis was on - you couldn't shoot open a chest.
With WoF on - you could always shoot a chest even if Ember was going crazy.

That's just one example, but highlights the clear difference in how these powers affect other players ability to genuinely shoot.  The reality is you could still shoot enemies to death while WoF is active too.. you can't when stasis is active.   With WoF only hits 8 targets at once, if you're in a room with 10 people, then there's no reason you can't shoot at minimum 2 of them.  And that's all rudimentary. 

WoF doesn't stop you from doing anything, it just does it first.  That's not stopping you - it's beating you to the punch, and while I can understand how that's annoying - it's nowhere near the degree of having 2/3 of your weapons taken away by another player.

Also let's be real - this is a total non-argument anyway because Ember has been nerfed into the ground and nobody uses her anymore, it's an old problem DE decided was a problem and fixed - so point back at it doesn't make much sense.   It's kind of weird though because you'd think if they hated nuke frames so much they wouldn't drop Onslaught on us to feed that very behavior.  

Edited June 12, 2018 by (PS4)lagrue

[(PSN)N7_Dredgen]

43 minutes ago, (PS4)Yes-Man-Kablaam said:

Tbh unless they change this this'll be kinda busted. Friendly gunfire stopping was a frustrating but fair trade off when you stop all enemies now it's just the cheese button. So i expect something to happen.

well I mean they could just make it affect Limbo again...that would be fair... if he wants to freeze his own bullets then by all means... they also did give a hefty nerf to duration of Rift too (which imo is a tad overboard) to go along with this, so they have mitigated it a bit how he can lock down the map.  

The problem here is you have one player deciding what 3 others need.  I'm MR25 and have played for 4 years (not using for epeen purposes) but I'm experienced enough that there's really never a time where I'm being swarmed so bad I'd rather give up my weapons.  I play the highest level content in the game and manage fine without Limbo.  Limbos are great with the assumption the rest of your squad absolutely sucks and needs to map frozen like that.  Limbo is also a great solo frame.  Where he was falling behind was being a good ally to competent players who don't need him to hold their hand - they've sorta fixed that.  

Edited June 12, 2018 by (PS4)lagrue

[cghawk]

1 hour ago, (PS4)lagrue said:

 World of Fire didn't stop you from shooting - it just killed before you did.  Realistically you could shoot your guns in the air and still had full control of your kit.  Limbo wasn't even affording people that much.

Again, false equivalence.  

but aren't we talking technicalities here.

technically ember is worse, limbo stasis prevents you from killing enemies with ranged weapons. Ember World on Fire prevents you from killing any enemies, you could shoot your gun in both cases but the end result is the same = you can't kill enemies with ranged weapons

[Vanille]

8 minutes ago, cghawk said:

but aren't we talking technicalities here.

technically ember is worse, limbo stasis prevents you from killing enemies with ranged weapons. Ember World on Fire prevents you from killing any enemies, you could shoot your gun in both cases but the end result is the same = you can't kill enemies with ranged weapons

How is that different from a player not using nuke frame ("WoF") but shooting with ranged weapons instead? if they shoot faster and before you, they'll still kill the enemies before you're able to and both have the same chance of doing so. Ember's WoF doesn't instantly nuke the map, it bounces from target to target and people can still shoot at them and the problem that was caused in low level maps of enemies actually being 1shot was somewhat adressed with her range being cut in half, more chances for other players to shoot aswell.

[Vanille]

1 hour ago, (PS4)lagrue said:

well I mean they could just make it affect Limbo again...that would be fair... if he wants to freeze his own bullets then by all means... they also did give a hefty nerf to duration of Rift too (which imo is a tad overboard) to go along with this, so they have mitigated it a bit how he can lock down the map.  

The problem here is you have one player deciding what 3 others need.  I'm MR25 and have played for 4 years (not using for epeen purposes) but I'm experienced enough that there's really never a time where I'm being swarmed so bad I'd rather give up my weapons.  I play the highest level content in the game and manage fine without Limbo.  Limbos are great with the assumption the rest of your squad absolutely sucks and needs to map frozen like that.  Limbo is also a great solo frame.  Where he was falling behind was being a good ally to competent players who don't need him to hold their hand - they've sorta fixed that.  

I suggested on the dev workshop thread about making it his Stasis augment since he doesn't have one for it, having the effect of stopping only his own projectiles so players who liked the freezing bullets unleash gameplay could still do so, while also having the option not to, so everybody wins, allies can play normally as they want and Limbos have the choice of how they want to play without affecting other players.

Edited June 12, 2018 by Kiwinille

[cghawk]

3 minutes ago, Kiwinille said:

How is that different from a player not using nuke frame ("WoF") but shooting with ranged weapons instead? if they shoot faster and before you, they'll still kill the enemies before you're able to and both have the same chance of doing so. Ember's WoF doesn't instantly nuke the map, it bounces from target to target and people can still shoot at them and the problem that was caused in low level maps of enemies actually being 1shot was somewhat adressed with her range being cut in half, more chances for other players to shoot aswell.

but limbo's cataclysm and ember WoF have almost the same range so that same argument could also be used for limbo's stasis then surely.

wiki says WoF has 15 range which over 9.5 seconds drops to 7.5 meter.
wiki says limbo's cataclysm has a range of 16 slowly decaying over 30 seconds to 5 meters

not saying I liked the ability just trying to play a bit of devil's advocate here, to me the abilities seem the same in what they accomplish, e.g. preventing you from killing when close to them.

sure shooting the enemy and killing them will make it so WoF can't affect, but same with cataclysm, kill the enemy before they walk into cataclysm and no stasis

[Vanille]

8 minutes ago, cghawk said:

but limbo's cataclysm and ember WoF have almost the same range so that same argument could also be used for limbo's stasis then surely.

wiki says WoF has 15 range which over 9.5 seconds drops to 7.5 meter.
wiki says limbo's cataclysm has a range of 16 slowly decaying over 30 seconds to 5 meters

not saying I liked the ability just trying to play a bit of devil's advocate here, to me the abilities seem the same in what they accomplish, e.g. preventing you from killing when close to them.

sure shooting the enemy and killing them will make it so WoF can't affect, but same with cataclysm, kill the enemy before they walk into cataclysm and no stasis

It's not about who kills faster either with WoF or Cataclysm, it's about Cataclysm+Stasis stopping other players from using their weapons of choice, reducing your optiions and chances. The flase equivalence argument was WoF didn't let you kill enemies, but you had a chance to do so (not different than having someone rush the mission before you and kill enemies with weapons before you do), even more now, you're not completely out of it. Limbo's stasis strips that chance away from you and sure you can shoot the enemies before they walk into cataclysm but that only works on an open area where you can freely walk around the bubble and see enemies, but you get max range Limbos making enemies frozen out of LoS and there's nothing you can do other than being forced out of your choices of loadout. But all of this will go away very soon.

Edited June 12, 2018 by Kiwinille

[(PSN)N7_Dredgen]

38 minutes ago, cghawk said:

but aren't we talking technicalities here.

technically ember is worse, limbo stasis prevents you from killing enemies with ranged weapons. Ember World on Fire prevents you from killing any enemies, you could shoot your gun in both cases but the end result is the same = you can't kill enemies with ranged weapons

see my post after the one you quoted for the clarity you're seeking.  

The end result was not the same.  

Edited June 12, 2018 by (PS4)lagrue

[Reifnir]

11 hours ago, Oreades said:

By all means feel free to try to convince me that this is somehow a negative change. Outside of maybe not being able to totally cheese headshot riven challenges anymore. 

Well, considering that after his first rework Limbo lost the ability to Banish across the Rift, and Stasis/Cataclysm was, for all intents and purposes, just a Chilling Globe that was clunkier to recast and caused eye bleeding, I only EVER used him to cheese aimglide headshot Rivens and literally nothing else, so this upcoming rework will kill the frame for me 😄

[(XBOX)OtherPhoenix554]

Well the duration is halved, so the amount of damage per cost is also halved. Besides it’s not as if the bullets disappear when they are stopped by stasis.  Thus the stasis change was a nerf, and most of the community is going for it because either they don’t have limbo, or because they aren’t creative enough to work around it. It’s not as if cataclysm has unlimited range, and dashing allows warframe a to instantly exit the rift, regardless of whether or not they are limbo frames.

[(XBOX)OtherPhoenix554]

And please don’t have your counter argument simply be that everyone else hates him and if you don’t your a douchebag.

[(XBOX)OtherPhoenix554]

besides, stasis doesn’t prevent damage from ranged weapons.

[Sibernetika]

Seriously it's a big stupid nerf to how good guy Limbo(max duration, min range) played after the rework before stasis was a thing limbo would cast the bubble, go into rift and and shoot stuff that entered the bubble, then came the rework that gave us stasis, suddenly we could cast bubble and stasis and move away from the defence object to actually move around and be helpful.. But now with the nerfed duration and how stuff like extractors don't scale and can get 1 shot good guy Limbo is back to casting bubble on the defence object and picking of targets that enter the bubble just to ensure there is nothing there that can one shot the extractor or do massive damage to a defence pod.. Frost is again the better option to take when going on long runs. 

[Colonel_Crow]

I only just got back into the game after a hiatus (a combination of burnout from playing the game, and crappy wifi that can't download the updates), and to find that this has been changed kinda upset me.

Limbo was (and to an extent, still is) my favourite frame to use, and I loved using stasis to line up a sequence of perfect kill shots before switching it off. Now to find that it's had this function removed because of too many people crying about it, it gets removed. I mean, yeah sure, it could be an obstruction. But there were options to avoid having your projectiles frozen when a Limbo popped stasis;

If you're inside the cataclysm bubble - leave the cataclysm bubble.

If you're in the rift from being hit with banish / a portal - dodge roll.

It was never that huge of an issue before, and offered some very interesting gameplay (seriously, who doesn't love stopping time?). Now it's just yet another generic freeze-all-the-enemies move (because we don't already have enough of those... Frost, Valkyr's paralysis, Gara's mass vitrify, Volt's discharge. Maybe more, that's all I can remember for now).

[Zeclem]

dat necro tho

[Colonel_Crow]

1 hour ago, Zeclem said:

dat necro tho

Necro maybe - but I only just learned of this myself, the discussion isn't that old (2 months) and what I wanted to say didn't warrant starting a brand new thread when one already exists.

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

If you don't want to get pissed on, just move put the way.

Sagely advice here. Also ignores the base issue where you have to constantly do it where removing Limbo from the game would also solve the issue. 

He's in a better place now but the rift mechanics are still janky as hell.