'The Sacrifice' End Game Content (Spoilers)

[Culaio]

53 minutes ago, Mesaeux said:

So I took the liberty to listen to what they actually said in Devstream 74 regarding Umbra.

At 23:58:

  Hide contents

 

Rebecca: So Umbra. So, if we told you spoilers about the Second Dream, as in, you're know what the Tenno are by the time you play this Second Dream quest.

Steve: Woah. Woah!

Rebecca: And if we told you that before we released it, it would have been really disappointing. 

Sheldon: Right. So, same thing. 

Rebecca: So, the same thing applies to the way Umbra will be revealed in the global build, so stay tuned. Please. Uh, please-

Geoff: We- we have plans. 

Rebecca: We do. And I don't think saying anything-

Steve: Well, hold on. I think we've probably said we have plans for a while. We have things that are being worked on and executed and it's happening. And-But it's not- 

Geoff: We're waiting for the appropriate time. 

Steve: It's not what you're going to expect and it's gonna be interesting and it may frustrate you more. A little bit. But, uhhhh, thank you for asking and you'll soon at least know stuff. 

 

at 25:24,

  Reveal hidden contents

Steve: There's no ETA for Umbra, but uh, soon those questions will be answered more concretely. 

at 45:17, another mention of Umbra as Steve reads a question from Rebecca's list

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Steve: ..."I find the Umbras very intriguing. I see a lot of potential in the lore-wise." So I think this would be one person that might not be pissed off. 

(Here the team says things in a jumble)

Steve: ...We're definitely using it as an opportunity to tell the story about...um, broadens(?) Warframe in general. The game in general. In the same way The Second Dream kinda broadened what the meaning of everything was. Uh, that's kinda where we're going with that. But, can't say much more about that. 

 

That's about the only places where Umbra was mentioned and, like some in the community have mentioned, the answers were all given in response to fan questions. Critically analyzing their actual words, they did not promise any new content like the Focus system introduction. All they said was that it would spoil the surprise if they spoiled it. Even if you said that there was really no surprise in the Sacrifice quest, it's more like there had been enough content hinting at the nature of warframes and enough fan speculation that it wasn't really surprising for most anymore. That, however, is besides the point. Their answers were more focused on lore than on any additional gameplay content. Steve was right, though. It did frustrate people. Some more than others. 

To say that they've been working on it as their main project would be presumptuous, I think. From content volume perspective, I think they had more people working on the Plains of Eidolon and conversely, they would have more people focusing on the Venus open world and whatever other additional gameplay content they have in store. 

I want to point out that originally umbra was going to play role in TWW quest, we know that from leaked scrpit long before we got TWW

[ShutUpJade]

12 hours ago, A-Midnight-Shanking said:

Huh. So it seems that there is at least one interaction added. Your Operator mentions Isaah, and Ordis queries "Is that how you remember it, Operator". So there's at least some after-effects of the quest.

I just got this interaction as well, with the 'Hey Kiddo' guy.

[AuroraSonicBoom]

After we consoled Umbra(or any future sentient frames) to help him overcome his self hatred I think it's only fair for us to expect him to repay the deed and console the Tenno for losing space mom indefinitely.

Spoiler

 

Edited June 16, 2018 by AuroraSonicBoom

[SilentMobius]

I think that anyone expecting Umbra to be anything other than a Excalibur with a couple of systemic tweaks was deluding themselves from the start as it ran counter to all evidence of DE's design ethos.

On 2018-06-15 at 5:55 AM, Snowskeeper said:

It didn't retain its memories. Ballas just made sure it kept that one, particular memory, to torment it.

And why does that make it sapient and motive, when other warframes are not?

I still have (What I consider to be) very important question about the functional difference between Umbra and other Warframes. Because there is a huge gotcha lurking in the shadows now regarding consent.

I mean, it's still unclear precisely what the difference is between Umbra and all other Warframes.

• Valkyr is full of rage, barely tamed, even more so after Alad V's experiments, yet is not motive when not under transference.
• Mirage Prime perverted Ballas' design, retaining her mercurial humour, yet is not motive when not under transference.

So are they sapient the way Umbra is? Or have they been completely scrubbed down below sapience by the torture that Ballas described?

If they are sapient, just with a more effective transference bolt (or something) that keeps them quiescent then, once our operator knows this can they morally make any more ?

Regardless how much pain the Tenno supposedly takes away, you are creating a being who is designed to suffer. There is nothing moral about that, also, while this one Umbra Warframe explicitly gave consent to transference use, if the other warframes literally cannot refuse by design and we build them like that then this is coerced consent. Which is another immoral bodily-autonomy violating action, tantamount to rape.

Sure Warframe has a lot of warcrimes in its setting but this would be the first that is forced into our character by author fiat where the only moral action is to no longer engage in the primary progress mechanism of the game.

This is why I think that non Umbra Warframes are inherently sub-sapient. Alive? Sure, but not self-aware and thinking. Which only puts our Tenno at the level of someone who breeds dogs for dog-fighting, rather than a mind-rapist.

But I'd like confirmation from DE before the next Warframe comes out.

 

Edited June 16, 2018 by SilentMobius

[A-Midnight-Shanking]

44 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

I think that anyone expecting Umbra to be anything other than a Excalibur with a couple of systemic tweaks was deluding themselves from the start as it ran counter to all evidence of DE's design ethos.

And why does that make it sapient and motive, when other warframes are not?

I still have (What I consider to be) very important question about the functional difference between Umbra and other Warframes. Because there is a huge gotcha lurking in the shadows now regarding consent.

I mean, it's still unclear precisely what the difference is between Umbra and all other Warframes.

• Valkyr is full of rage, barely tamed, even more so after Alad V's experiments, yet is not motive when not under transference.
• Mirage Prime perverted Ballas' design, retaining her mercurial humour, yet is not motive when not under transference.

So are they sapient the way Umbra is? Or have they been completely scrubbed down below sapience by the torture that Ballas described?

If they are sapient, just with a more effective transference bolt (or something) that keeps them quiescent then, once our operator knows this can they morally make any more ?

Regardless how much pain the Tenno supposedly takes away, you are creating a being who is designed to suffer. There is nothing moral about that, also, while this one Umbra Warframe explicitly gave consent to transference use, if the other warframes literally cannot refuse by design and we build them like that then this is coerced consent. Which is another immoral bodily-autonomy violating action, tantamount to rape.

Sure Warframe has a lot of warcrimes in its setting but this would be the first that is forced into our character by author fiat where the only moral action is to no longer engage in the primary progress mechanism of the game.

This is why I think that non Umbra Warframes are inherently sub-sapient. Alive? Sure, but not self-aware and thinking. Which only puts our Tenno at the level of someone who breeds dogs for dog-fighting, rather than a mind-rapist.

But I'd like confirmation from DE before the next Warframe comes out.

 

Think of Umbra Excal as a Carbon Copy of an Infested Orokin that now only experiences pain, grief, and rage (depending on your choices). This includes a copy of whatever is left of its mind.

Umbra Excal is quite literally an abomination from a moral standpoint. But one which the Operator was unaware of when creating.

However, this Warframe is Unique. It's Ballas' "Mistake".

I am under the impression that succeeding Warframes (Prime and Regular) are mindless on their own. Simply Infested Flesh and Bone (From Helminth), with no attempt to give it any sort of an organ that might result in what we consider a standalone 'Mind'.

All previous "Progenitor" Warframes have either died, effectively integrated with the Infested 'Hive Mind', or like the Stalker and Acolytes, been subjugated to Hunhow. (But who knows, we could see these as eventual bosses elsewhere).

If we do get any other Umbra Frames, they'll likely be linked with Helminth, such that they are simply vessels for Helminth to control via 'Hive Mind' while we're out of the frame. Not actually having a 'Mind' of their own at any point, instead being an Infested 'Flesh puppet' that can now be controlled by Helminth as well. I can only surmise that the reason our frames have moved autonomously in the past, is due to Helminth (very weakly) connecting with the Infested flesh that makes up our Warframes.

Or, instead of that, DE can go with our Warframes spontaneously developing consciousness, and hit it Westworld style.

 

[SilentMobius]

On 2018-06-16 at 7:38 PM, A-Midnight-Shanking said:

Think of Umbra Excal as a Carbon Copy of an Infested Orokin that now only experiences pain, grief, and rage (depending on your choices). This includes a copy of whatever is left of its mind.

Umbra Excal is quite literally an abomination from a moral standpoint. But one which the Operator was unaware of when creating.

Sure that's directly from the quest

On 2018-06-16 at 7:38 PM, A-Midnight-Shanking said:

I am under the impression that succeeding Warframes (Prime and Regular) are mindless on their own. Simply Infested Flesh and Bone (From Helminth), with no attempt to give it any sort of an organ that might result in what we consider a standalone 'Mind'.

All previous "Progenitor" Warframes have either died, effectively integrated with the Infested 'Hive Mind', or like the Stalker and Acolytes, been subjugated to Hunhow. (But who knows, we could see these as eventual bosses elsewhere).

Nothing says that though. We are told multiple times that the Primes are the "originals" and the quest describes the Warframe creation process without exception, talking about multiple people given over to the process. At no point are we told any other method of creating a new Warframe class.

Obviously we-the-tenno can recreate a given Warframe without consuming a sapient life, but that just recreates existing frame designs, consciousness and all (If it exists, as per Umbra). so what is it that makes the non-Umbra Warframes-lines "docile" and is it suppressing their inherent sapience (and they were made by the same process according to the Vitruvian log) or are they build without it?

On 2018-06-16 at 7:38 PM, A-Midnight-Shanking said:

If we do get any other Umbra Frames, they'll likely be linked with Helminth, such that they are simply vessels for Helminth to control via 'Hive Mind' while we're out of the frame. Not actually having a 'Mind' of their own at any point, instead being an Infested 'Flesh puppet' that can now be controlled by Helminth as well. I can only surmise that the reason our frames have moved autonomously in the past, is due to Helminth (very weakly) connecting with the Infested flesh that makes up our Warframes.

Maybe or maybe we'll get other, shorter, quests that still provide backstory and explicit consent.

Edited June 24, 2018 by SilentMobius

[A-Midnight-Shanking]

34 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

Nothing says that though. We are told multiple times that the Primes are the "originals" and the quest describes the Warframe creation process without exception, talking about multiple people given over to the process. At no point are we told any other method of creating a new Warframe class.

Obviously we-the-tenno can recreate a given Warframe without consuming a sapient life, but that just recreates existing frame designs, consciousness and all (as per Umbra, if it exists). so what is it that makes the non-Umbra Warframes-lines "docile" and is it suppressing their inherent sapience (and they were made by the same process according to the Vitruvian log) or are they build without it?

Speculating, I'd say that the Primes are the original version of Warframe models. After testing on the failed and/or volatile "Progenitor/Prototype" experiments. Each Prime copying certain aspects of these ethical abominations to create a 'Master' template, which all other variations on said model are derived from. (Stalker and the Acolytes are "Progenitors", whose abilities and form aren't necessarily standardized to Orokin 'Finesse')

But these Prime models, were also created with the integration of Margulis' Transferrence Technology. And as such no longer needed an actual mind to function. Instead the Orokin could rely on the Tenno to control these with much more precision, and assumed obedience. As a result, all Primes and derived models don't have any kind of consciousness in their schematics, since it's a waste and potential hazard to include. So all current Warframes (excluding Umbra Excalibur), are built without any kind of consciousness. (All those idle animations are essentially our operator).

Though that's just my guess.

Umbra Excalibur, on the other hand, was Ballas' personal ethical abomination project, which we accidentally recreated. (Millions of times)

Edited June 16, 2018 by A-Midnight-Shanking

[Mesaeux]

12 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

I think that anyone expecting Umbra to be anything other than a Excalibur with a couple of systemic tweaks was deluding themselves from the start as it ran counter to all evidence of DE's design ethos.

And why does that make it sapient and motive, when other warframes are not?

I still have (What I consider to be) very important question about the functional difference between Umbra and other Warframes. Because there is a huge gotcha lurking in the shadows now regarding consent.

I mean, it's still unclear precisely what the difference is between Umbra and all other Warframes.

• Valkyr is full of rage, barely tamed, even more so after Alad V's experiments, yet is not motive when not under transference.
• Mirage Prime perverted Ballas' design, retaining her mercurial humour, yet is not motive when not under transference.

So are they sapient the way Umbra is? Or have they been completely scrubbed down below sapience by the torture that Ballas described?

If they are sapient, just with a more effective transference bolt (or something) that keeps them quiescent then, once our operator knows this can they morally make any more ?

Regardless how much pain the Tenno supposedly takes away, you are creating a being who is designed to suffer. There is nothing moral about that, also, while this one Umbra Warframe explicitly gave consent to transference use, if the other warframes literally cannot refuse by design and we build them like that then this is coerced consent. Which is another immoral bodily-autonomy violating action, tantamount to rape.

Sure Warframe has a lot of warcrimes in its setting but this would be the first that is forced into our character by author fiat where the only moral action is to no longer engage in the primary progress mechanism of the game.

This is why I think that non Umbra Warframes are inherently sub-sapient. Alive? Sure, but not self-aware and thinking. Which only puts our Tenno at the level of someone who breeds dogs for dog-fighting, rather than a mind-rapist.

But I'd like confirmation from DE before the next Warframe comes out.

 

I think they can morally make more. Their suffering is due to the "one, burning memory", which I assume is the memory of their infestation process and whatever else Ballas inflicts upon them during that time. Once the Tenno help them past that, they no longer suffer the same way. What kind of mind they have left is unknown, but in the case of Excalibur Umbra, it has enough sapience to act autonomously. I think the other warframes have minds that have gone dormant, hence, their inactivity when the Tenno transfers out of them. 

11 hours ago, A-Midnight-Shanking said:

Think of Umbra Excal as a Carbon Copy of an Infested Orokin that now only experiences pain, grief, and rage (depending on your choices). This includes a copy of whatever is left of its mind.

Umbra Excal is quite literally an abomination from a moral standpoint. But one which the Operator was unaware of when creating.

However, this Warframe is Unique. It's Ballas' "Mistake".

I am under the impression that succeeding Warframes (Prime and Regular) are mindless on their own. Simply Infested Flesh and Bone (From Helminth), with no attempt to give it any sort of an organ that might result in what we consider a standalone 'Mind'.

All previous "Progenitor" Warframes have either died, effectively integrated with the Infested 'Hive Mind', or like the Stalker and Acolytes, been subjugated to Hunhow. (But who knows, we could see these as eventual bosses elsewhere).

If we do get any other Umbra Frames, they'll likely be linked with Helminth, such that they are simply vessels for Helminth to control via 'Hive Mind' while we're out of the frame. Not actually having a 'Mind' of their own at any point, instead being an Infested 'Flesh puppet' that can now be controlled by Helminth as well. I can only surmise that the reason our frames have moved autonomously in the past, is due to Helminth (very weakly) connecting with the Infested flesh that makes up our Warframes.

Or, instead of that, DE can go with our Warframes spontaneously developing consciousness, and hit it Westworld style.

 

I think calling them mindless is ignoring the conversation Ballas has in the Mirage Prime trailer and in the Vitruvian entries. All of the original warframes (talking about the first ever of a particular warframe model from which other copies are made) would have had minds of their own, filled with rage at the beginning, according to the Vitruvian entry. It was the Tenno that freed them of their suffering and pacified them. I think that, once they are pacified, the warframe's physical makeup is scanned and made into blueprints so that they can be replicated. I believe it wasn't the Helminth that controlled the empty warframe in the Second Dream. I lean more towards the dormant mind of the warframe awakening for just a brief moment when it was most needed. I think it's more logical to see that Helminth is only responsible for converting new subjects into new warframes, nothing more.

11 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

Sure that's directly from the quest

Nothing says that though. We are told multiple times that the Primes are the "originals" and the quest describes the Warframe creation process without exception, talking about multiple people given over to the process. At no point are we told any other method of creating a new Warframe class.

Obviously we-the-tenno can recreate a given Warframe without consuming a sapient life, but that just recreates existing frame designs, consciousness and all (as per Umbra, if it exists). so what is it that makes the non-Umbra Warframes-lines "docile" and is it suppressing their inherent sapience (and they were made by the same process according to the Vitruvian log) or are they build without it?

Maybe or maybe we'll get other, shorter, quests that still provide backstory and explicit consent.

I think that, while the Primes are the "originals", the primes we use today are not THE original and are replicas of the true original. I think right now, there is large difference between the Umbra we own and the Primes: Time, Umbra's unique transference bolt, and Umbra's host human. 

Time: This is technically the first warframe that has been pacified in recent time. Perhaps its mind is still fresh and is able to exert its own will at this point. I think that it is more plausible for the original warframes to have their schematics created to be replicated only after they have been pacified by the Tenno. Once pacified and under Tenno control, perhaps they get bored and go dormant. It could also be possible for them to modify the copied schematic to exclude the presence of a mind but that would make explaining that War breaking moment in the Second Dream a bit of a stretch. Also, we can think about it this way. In the Sentient war, Tenno were made to believe that they were the warframes and put into the dream state. There was simply no room for the mind of the warframe's host. Under such circumstances, it is possible for them to go dormant. 

Unique Transference bolt: We don't know what sort of impact this has on the function of the warframe to which it is attached, but Ordis claims that its design is different from the others.

Umbra's host: I think the human that becomes the warframe imparts their characteristic to the resulting warframe. Perhaps this warframe is sapient due to its the particular strengthof its host, and perhaps his last moments created one such will. 

Just my thoughts on the matter. 🙂

[Xiee_Himitsu]

Surprised that there are a lot of people who don't like the quest in its entirety. I guess I'm one of the few who actually loved it.

[A-Midnight-Shanking]

13 minutes ago, Mesaeux said:

I think calling them mindless is ignoring the conversation Ballas has in the Mirage Prime trailer and in the Vitruvian entries. All of the original warframes (talking about the first ever of a particular warframe model from which other copies are made) would have had minds of their own, filled with rage at the beginning, according to the Vitruvian entry. It was the Tenno that freed them of their suffering and pacified them. I think that, once they are pacified, the warframe's physical makeup is scanned and made into blueprints so that they can be replicated. I believe it wasn't the Helminth that controlled the empty warframe in the Second Dream. I lean more towards the dormant mind of the warframe awakening for just a brief moment when it was most needed. I think it's more logical to see that Helminth is only responsible for converting new subjects into new warframes, nothing more.

In the Vitruvian entries, he also states that these initial infested/sentient hybrid Warframes were committed to the grave, because "they turned on us". These were not Primes, merely failed prototypes. I'm fairly certain they turned because of those dormant memories, and as such, when creating the masterwork version for the Tenno (void) to use, all aspects of a mind were scrubbed. Yielding the Prime.

Of course, with the previous Warframe movement, we can only wait and see as to what DE decides to write. Be it Helminth, a lingering consciousness, or perhaps the void itself.

Nonetheless, your take on it is interesting.

[Gunbusta]

"Uncle Ordis doesn't cut the crust on my pp&j and he buys the cherry flavored poparts that have no icing. I want space mom back!"

[A-Midnight-Shanking]

4 minutes ago, A-Midnight-Shanking said:

In the Vitruvian entries, he also states that these initial infested/sentient hybrid Warframes were committed to the grave, because "they turned on us". These were not Primes, merely failed prototypes. I'm fairly certain they turned because of those dormant memories, and as such, when creating the masterwork version for the Tenno (void) to use, all aspects of a mind were scrubbed. Yielding the Prime.

Of course, with the previous Warframe movement, we can only wait and see as to what DE decides to write. Be it Helminth, a lingering consciousness, or perhaps the void itself.

Nonetheless, your take on it is interesting.

Hah, or perhaps those three options become the choices  on what we want our Warframes to actually be, when they include Duo play. Helminth is Moon, Consciousness is Sun, and the Void is the Middle path.

Perhaps making the way we 'Upgrade' our Warframe's AI different depending on what path you choose.

[A-Midnight-Shanking]

1 hour ago, A-Midnight-Shanking said:

Hah, or perhaps those three options become the choices  on what we want our Warframes to actually be, when they include Duo play. Helminth is Moon, Consciousness is Sun, and the Void is the Middle path.

Perhaps making the way we 'Upgrade' our Warframe's AI different depending on what path you choose.

Could even make it more ambitious than that, too. Your decision could have game-play effects.

Such as: choosing Helminth allows you to transform your warframe, making it stronger, faster, more physically deadly.

Choosing the void allows your operator to become stronger, and amplify and augment operator powers.

Choosing consciousness allows you to have up to two follower loadouts on any mission.

Obviously these will become intertwined later down the road as more story content is added, but for the time your choice would determine your end-game.

but that’s single-player level of detail, not something in the scope of an MMO

[Teloch]

16 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

Sure Warframe has a lot of warcrimes in its setting but this would be the first that is forced into our character by author fiat where the only moral action is to no longer engage in the primary progress mechanism of the game.

By trying to be oh-so-original with the protagonist's identity, the writer (Steve) cornered himself into the logical and moral zugzwang.

[Mesaeux]

3 hours ago, A-Midnight-Shanking said:

In the Vitruvian entries, he also states that these initial infested/sentient hybrid Warframes were committed to the grave, because "they turned on us". These were not Primes, merely failed prototypes. I'm fairly certain they turned because of those dormant memories, and as such, when creating the masterwork version for the Tenno (void) to use, all aspects of a mind were scrubbed. Yielding the Prime.

Of course, with the previous Warframe movement, we can only wait and see as to what DE decides to write. Be it Helminth, a lingering consciousness, or perhaps the void itself.

Good catch about the committing to grave part. I doubt they destroyed all of them, though. It could simply be that those fielded against the Sentients were destroyed but they have some kept in containment.

It's the final Vitruvian entry that has me set on thinking that they didn't destroy their minds, the part where the Tenno and Umbra come to terms in Umbra's mindscape. He said the ability of the Tenno to remove the warframe's pain was the other essential part of weaponizing the warframes against the Sentients. He did not say that they removed their mental faculties. He said it worked because the Tenno could subdue the warframes by removing their anguish, not because they could animate what was mindless. 

[Rakawan]

17 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

I think that anyone expecting Umbra to be anything other than a Excalibur with a couple of systemic tweaks was deluding themselves from the start as it ran counter to all evidence of DE's design ethos.

And why does that make it sapient and motive, when other warframes are not?

I still have (What I consider to be) very important question about the functional difference between Umbra and other Warframes. Because there is a huge gotcha lurking in the shadows now regarding consent.

I mean, it's still unclear precisely what the difference is between Umbra and all other Warframes.

• Valkyr is full of rage, barely tamed, even more so after Alad V's experiments, yet is not motive when not under transference.
• Mirage Prime perverted Ballas' design, retaining her mercurial humour, yet is not motive when not under transference.

So are they sapient the way Umbra is? Or have they been completely scrubbed down below sapience by the torture that Ballas described?

If they are sapient, just with a more effective transference bolt (or something) that keeps them quiescent then, once our operator knows this can they morally make any more ?

Regardless how much pain the Tenno supposedly takes away, you are creating a being who is designed to suffer. There is nothing moral about that, also, while this one Umbra Warframe explicitly gave consent to transference use, if the other warframes literally cannot refuse by design and we build them like that then this is coerced consent. Which is another immoral bodily-autonomy violating action, tantamount to rape.

Sure Warframe has a lot of warcrimes in its setting but this would be the first that is forced into our character by author fiat where the only moral action is to no longer engage in the primary progress mechanism of the game.

This is why I think that non Umbra Warframes are inherently sub-sapient. Alive? Sure, but not self-aware and thinking. Which only puts our Tenno at the level of someone who breeds dogs for dog-fighting, rather than a mind-rapist.

But I'd like confirmation from DE before the next Warframe comes out.

 

Me, and a few of my IRL friends love to get together and debate new lore as we find it. 

 Our current theory is that Umbras were the first frames. Prototype models to prove a point. That infested flesh could serve as a suitable host for Tenno. 

However complications in controlling them led to the development of “mindless” infested husks. Given life entirely by transference. Umbra could have been the straw that broke the camels back and motivated the switch. 

So the Orokin cloned or replicated infested husks for each frame without cloning the mind or memories, to create the Primes, the production models. 

Alad V states that what he found inside a warframe did not make sense. The man is too smart and too creative to see an infested human and go “this makes no sense.” 

However a mindless entity that had moments before been trying to kill him? Now that would be confusing. It has fought infested so it is not controlled by them, yet it has no mind of its own, so it can’t be controlling itself. There are nosystems recognizable as remote control interfaces, and no power sources.

This would explain why the current frames are still immobile. They are nothing more than puppets, whereas Umbras retain mind and memories.

That “breaking the sword moment?” Adrenaline rush fuels remote transference by an operator whose life was in danger. It’s not uncommon to see people touch on greater potential in a last ditch effort to save themselves, especially in science fiction stories. The Tenno, choking, realizes they still can feel their frame, somehow,  and makes it remove the sword. However the backlash from the sword tearing through the shoulder cuts the link.

Edited June 17, 2018 by Rakawan

[Mesaeux]

20 minutes ago, Rakawan said:

Our current theory is that Umbras were the first frames. Prototype models to prove a point. That infested flesh could serve as asuitable host for Tenno. 

However complications in controlling them led to the development of “mindless” infested husks, Given life entirely by transference. Umbra could have been the straw that broke the camels back and motivated the switch. 

So the Orokin cloned or replicated infested husks for each frame without cloning the mind or memories, to create the Primes, the production models. 

Alad V states that what he found inside a warframe did not make sense. The man is too smart and too creative to see an infested human and go “this makes no sense.” 

However a mindless entity that had mmoments before been trying to kill him? Now that would be confusing. It has fought infested so it is not controlled by them, yet it has no mind of its own, so it can’t be controlling itself. 

This would explain why the current frames are still immobile. They are nothing more than puppets, whereas Umbras retain mind and memories.

That “breaking the sword moment?” Adrenaline rush fuels remote transference by an operator whose life was in danger. It’s not uncommon to see people touch in greater potential in a last ditch effort to save themselves. The Tenno, choking, realizes they still can feel their frame, somehow,  and makes it remove the sword. However the backlash from the sword tearing through the shoulder cuts the link.

Interesting theory regarding the last ditch effort. But I'd like to point out something about your theory and its association with the timeline.

The narrative of Excalibur Umbra's transformation and the narrative of the creation of the first warframes are separate narratives. Excalibur Umbra was definitely not a batch of the first. The Tenno were not initially involved in weaponizing the warframes. We know this because the warframes turned on the Orokin in battle. It could be possible that the Zariman had not had the void jump incident yet at that time. Even if they had, the Tenno could have been under Orokin quarantine. It was Margulis and, later, Ballas who developed Transference to use on warframes. Now we know the mechanism with which Transference is used: the transference bolt. Now, Umbra was transformed when all the intricacies of weaponizing warframes effectively had already been figured out because of Ballas' comment that the Dax had a lovingly crafted infestation swarming in his blood and that he was transforming into a sacred vessel for the unholy Tenno. And the Dax knew exactly what Ballas meant as seen in his increased struggle. So, at the time of his transformation, Tenno were already successfully controlling warframes. 

Why Umbra was never given to the Tenno to subdue? I think it's because his mind contains memories of Ballas' treachery. The Tenno that links with it would know the truth of his betrayal, so he kept Umbra imprisoned instead. 

Edited June 17, 2018 by Mesaeux

[rand0mname]

"The beast squats down, shovelling a heap of gore into its mouth. It is watching me with vague eyes, a sense of recognition, ancestral memory. It knows who I am and what I've done."

"These past weeks, I've been secretly testing Transference on myself. I can only survive short bursts - linking to Titania the way only Tenno can stand. I've never felt anything like it. A tortured presence, like an evil ink, staining my mind.”

“Why do these Warframes stir us so? They burn with our lost desires, lost instincts. Tenno tamed, but only just. Cast and hunted as game. Trapped and tortured, yet they remain... animals. Less than their human seed, gnawing their limbs from the snare, devouring a banquet of suffering, obese with heat and acid... and rage."

I do not think that Warframes are empty golems. They do have something on their minds. The question is, how much of the mind they have left after everything they have been through?

Take Operator constantly referring to themselves as “we” then using Transference, sprinkle that with Infestation Hive mind, add Elder Kween saying that Operator mind is overcrowded and put the new dialog from MIW on top... Yeh.

As for frames standing still then Operator is out - knowing Orokin they would want some kind of the counter measures to prevent a very angry Warframe running without Operator control. Something alike to Umbra being unable to move then he tries to harm Ballas? Who knows, if we will ever get more Umbra frames, removing this restrains may be the way to go?

P.S. Valkyr Prime berserk nature makes some sense now, is it not? And another question - does the sword steel skin means Nidus is running around naked? Ah, the lore of Warframe... So many questions! 😁 

Edited June 17, 2018 by rand0mname

[Shoryuu]

1 hour ago, Mesaeux said:

Good catch about the committing to grave part. I doubt they destroyed all of them, though. It could simply be that those fielded against the Sentients were destroyed but they have some kept in containment.

It's the final Vitruvian entry that has me set on thinking that they didn't destroy their minds, the part where the Tenno and Umbra come to terms in Umbra's mindscape. He said the ability of the Tenno to remove the warframe's pain was the other essential part of weaponizing the warframes against the Sentients. He did not say that they removed their mental faculties. He said it worked because the Tenno could subdue the warframes by removing their anguish, not because they could animate what was mindless. 

 

'...We had created monsters we couldn't control. We drugged them, tortured them, eviscerated them... We brutalized their minds... but it did not work, until they came... And it was not their force of will, Not their void devilry, not their alien darkness... It was something else. It was that somehow, from within the derelict-horror, they had learned a way to see inside an ugly, broken thing... And take away its pain.'' 

 

 

[Rakawan]

1 hour ago, Mesaeux said:

Interesting theory regarding the last ditch effort. But I'd like to point out something about your theory and its association with the timeline.

The narrative of Excalibur Umbra's transformation and the narrative of the creation of the first warframes are separate narratives. Excalibur Umbra was definitely not a batch of the first. The Tenno were not initially involved in weaponizing the warframes. We know this because the warframes turned on the Orokin in battle. It could be possible that the Zariman had not had the void jump incident yet at that time. Even if they had, the Tenno could have been under Orokin quarantine. It was Margulis and, later, Ballas who developed Transference to use on warframes. Now we know the mechanism with which Transference is used: the transference bolt. Now, Umbra was transformed when all the intricacies of weaponizing warframes effectively had already been figured out because of Ballas' comment that the Dax had a lovingly crafted infestation swarming in his blood and that he was transforming into a sacred vessel for the unholy Tenno. And the Dax knew exactly what Ballas meant as seen in his increased struggle. So, at the time of his transformation, Tenno were already successfully controlling warframes. 

Why Umbra was never given to the Tenno to subdue? I think it's because his mind contains memories of Ballas' treachery. The Tenno that links with it would know the truth of his betrayal, so he kept Umbra imprisoned instead. 

Doesn’t have to be right at the start, Umbras could have been used for some time until a better method for creating transference hosts was found. Umbra Excalibur could have been the catalyst that inspired the search for such a solution. Once it was found all faltames were updated under various pretenses. This would explain why Umbra versions will be rare, as the Orokin did not intend them to be found. 

Keep in mind that Margulis’ death was rather early in the Warframe project. It seems that Ballas was the one who worked to weaponize the frames. 

Again as Umbras are the frames would have made sense to Alad V. Infested humans would make sense to him. Mindless infested golems would not.

[Lockheed]

On 2018-06-15 at 2:10 PM, TennoHack said:

I am beyond mad with DE about this, not only have we been waiting 3 years for this, but we've been cliffhanging for half a year! They not only let everyone believe that this would give us the answers we've been looking for, but actively advertised it! Which is a blatant lie. Not to mention Umbra is exactly what I feared him to be. A normal specter that is automatically used when you use transference. that's all he is.

You realise that DE is probably going to tease what will come after this at Tennocon?

[A-Midnight-Shanking]

3 hours ago, Mesaeux said:

Good catch about the committing to grave part. I doubt they destroyed all of them, though. It could simply be that those fielded against the Sentients were destroyed but they have some kept in containment.

It's the final Vitruvian entry that has me set on thinking that they didn't destroy their minds, the part where the Tenno and Umbra come to terms in Umbra's mindscape. He said the ability of the Tenno to remove the warframe's pain was the other essential part of weaponizing the warframes against the Sentients. He did not say that they removed their mental faculties. He said it worked because the Tenno could subdue the warframes by removing their anguish, not because they could animate what was mindless. 

Which is true, but at the same time I doubt that they would make a template during which the operator will have to subdue the mind, every time. More likely than not, the minds were either scrubbed while they were docile (to make the template), or the void essentially made those minds comatose, meaning all copies never were 'Alive'. But could wake up.

Even if it was the latter, I don't actually think that the previous Warframe autonomous movement instances were actually because of a Warframe finally beginning to wake up.

More likely than not: In Lua it was the void that controlled the warframes (either the operator themselves, or the sheer number of other 'void demons' in close proximity). In our Orbiter it was Helminth, who was needed and in very close proximity. And finally, we have the case of Umbra Excal, a Warframe whose mind was never turned comatose (because Ballas is a prick), whose pain we finally ease.

[Sloan441]

7 hours ago, Xiee_Himitsu said:

Surprised that there are a lot of people who don't like the quest in its entirety. I guess I'm one of the few who actually loved it.

Well, for full disclosure, I liked it well enough. Too much operator gameplay (though, this will probably be the new norm) and I really didn't want to play Excalibur, but it is what it is. 

That's just me. 

I've seen the kvetching and this is the danger of personal head canon you get too engrossed in--to the point you're ignoring information presented to you in the game. I suspect a lot of folks fall victim to this. So your personal narrative gets derailed by the actual narrative that can no longer be ignored and the resulting cognitive dissonance plays out in the forums. 

Understandable, but that's why I (and many others) like the lore-crafting threads. To try and get a handle on what is really being presented to us, but not getting too caught up in personal theories. Less mental sturm und drang that way...

[(PSN)Warframe2052018]

On 2018-06-15 at 7:04 AM, (PS4)Thealteregoroman said:

@Snowskeeper please don’t play yourself, clearly it says PS4. If you have a PS4 account you would know that’s my screen name on there. Nothing anonymous about me, I have my REAL face on there. Again bring that same energy to Tenno con please and thank you. Ain’t nothing anonymous about me. So what’s good?!?!

Also when you got something else smart to say be direct with it and @ me next time. You don’t have to quote me, I know what I said.

im referring to in general of the people that are bashing DE cause they don’t like the direction a game is going....

news flash.....the whole entire star wars movies leave you in a cliff hanger...but yet y’all wanna come for DE’s neck. No ma’am No GOD.

 

You are the biggest, cringiest drama queen I have ever seen. Stop farming for approvals. That's number one. Number two, your PSN doesn't make you any less anonymous than everyobody else here. Third, you threatening others because they didn't like something you like is downright dumb. If raging is bad, you should stop doing it too. Even better, GROW UP.

[SilentMobius]

11 hours ago, Rakawan said:

Our current theory is that..

Again, everyone is entitled to fill in the blanks, there are a myriad of possible realities that fit over the frame of what we know. But we do not have enough information to be sure, and that is a problem.

But the notion of non-umbra sapience is so utterly key to all ongoing interaction with the Warframe universe that it need explicitly and officially addressing.

If all warframes are sapient (Even if quiescent now due to past events, design, restraint, etc) then consent hinges on the details of what went before.

Anything other than demonstrated, non-manufactured, consent makes our Operator into something horrific, which may be excused by ignorance but from the Sacrifice onward, without explicitly addressing consent then no moral Tenno can create a new Warframe.

Which is a huge problem.

If non-umbra warframes are not sapient then we need to know what the line is, and how the descriptions of Mirage Prime and Valkyr Prime's creation differ from the creation of Umbra.

Because you do not play fast and loose with consent via author dictat on player characters.

Edited June 17, 2018 by SilentMobius