Sortie slowly becoming trivial

[Methanoid]

1 hour ago, angias said:

You are ignoring the fact that the early game content gets harder, there will be barely any difference between Fortuna and sortie.

When i speak about triviality i speak about the perspective of new player.

I don't have the slightest care about it being trivial for me, if i want it to be hard i'll make it hard.

its certainly harder to progress in todays warframe, not due to any kind of difficulty, more due to the layered restrictions that hinder smooth progress, the starmap was a better place when we could progress at our own pace and in a way we could manage on our own, now theres lots of annoying locks and timegates thrown in, more annoyances than being difficult.

New users issues have always stemmed from the dire lack of information on pretty much all aspects of warframe, it has always been that way with very little done on DE's side to change that fact, most people i tried to bring in always commented that they dislike having to consult a wiki for the slightest of things pretty much non stop, it was a big turn off for them, the "difficulty" of the game was never an issue for them.

Personally i have 4 accounts for differing purposes, 1 of which is the lowest MR needed for sorties (MR5) and i can manage sorties well enough even with average gear and non-max mods, newbies dont have a vets wealth of experience and knowledge of numerous things potentially needed to make sorties a non issue, this is likely the main reason for their difficultys rather than mob levels.

[Methanoid]

On 2018-08-03 at 6:51 PM, angias said:

New content will surpass sortie in chalenge and sortie will become a glorified alert.

to vets, sorties were glorified alerts merely in a sequence of 3 pretty much from day 1, they have always been nothing special or much different from normal missions, esp if you are a vet who when bored often sat around doing endless survivals/defence and were already accustomed to higher lvl mobs anyways because you didnt have much to do.

[angias]

Il y a 2 heures, Methanoid a dit :

to vets, sorties were glorified alerts merely in a sequence of 3 pretty much from day 1, they have always been nothing special or much different from normal missions, esp if you are a vet who when bored often sat around doing endless survivals/defence and were already accustomed to higher lvl mobs anyways because you didnt have much to do.

Why do you always bring the perspective of vets, i am talking about casual and new players.

[GunRunnerX]

14 hours ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

...and yet, here we are...telling DE how to design their content.  >.>

That's not what we're doing.  We provide our thoughts, wishes, and hopes, as customers of their service.  We provide suggestions and discussion.  What we don't provide is content design.  Community says we would like to see A,B,C.  Devs can decide how to design and implement, if they will implement at all.

This is similar to arguing with a brick wall I think.

[GunRunnerX]

3 hours ago, Methanoid said:

to vets, sorties were glorified alerts merely in a sequence of 3 pretty much from day 1, they have always been nothing special or much different from normal missions, esp if you are a vet who when bored often sat around doing endless survivals/defence and were already accustomed to higher lvl mobs anyways because you didnt have much to do.

Very true, although I would also add that this is not exclusive to vets.  You really don't need a ton of progress to find yourself in this boat, it because just another alert without too much in frames/gear/upgrades. 

 

There's really not even an attempt to make something that's truly aligned to veterans or those with large amounts of progress.  But this boils down to the fact that DE doesn't make money off the vets, vets don't need to purchase plat for their needs as much as new players will.  This is the elephant in the room no one likes to bring up.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

2 hours ago, GunRunnerX said:

Very true, although I would also add that this is not exclusive to vets.  You really don't need a ton of progress to find yourself in this boat, it because just another alert without too much in frames/gear/upgrades. 

 

There's really not even an attempt to make something that's truly aligned to veterans or those with large amounts of progress.  But this boils down to the fact that DE doesn't make money off the vets, vets don't need to purchase plat for their needs as much as new players will.  This is the elephant in the room no one likes to bring up.

I bring it up all the time.  I don't think it's a bad thing.  DE is, above all else, a business.  If one demographic keeps the lights on, and the other just kinda hangs out...well....  I can't blame DE for favoring one over the other, can you?

In any case, to the OP, New Players are not experiencing these "increasingly high early levels".  None of the early missions have changed.  PoE DOES have high levels as you venture further from the city, and deeper into the night, but then again- that's warned about when you first step foot on the Plains.  It shouldn't catch them off guard.  

It's like a "Caution: Will Be HOT!" warning on a cup of coffee.  Ya can't really get mad if you burn yourself for being careless when it's written all over the container.

My gf is currently MR8, and is still very much learning the game.  She's somewhere around Pluto now, i -think- (have to check), and levels haven't changed one bit from when I was at that point during my initial run of the Star Chart many moons ago.

So I guess what I'm getting at is: Where are you getting the idea that the early game is getting more and more difficult for newcomers?  I agree there is alot to digest, but difficulty hasn't curved any.   I'm looking forward to further discussion.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

On 2018-07-30 at 3:22 AM, AJ5511 said:

Lol the problem is that I'm MR 9 XD

Solo all of them. Still not hard but at least a little more challenge.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

lol I'm sitting here re-reading the comments, and I swear to Lotus I can picture half of these players as Hercule sitting on the other end of their PCs.  

"Uh heheh, yeeah! I'm the greatest!"
"Prove it!"
"Ugh...mah stomach!!"

siiiiigh.    Anyways, Sorties are fine for the level for which they're intended.  The solution to creating higher-tier content is not upping the level of current content.  It is far FAR more sensible to create NEW content for higher tiers.

You don't take one rung of a ladder out in order to use it for the next one.  You keep adding new ones.  Otherwise, what's left for people to climb?

[angias]

Il y a 3 heures, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu a dit :

So I guess what I'm getting at is: Where are you getting the idea that the early game is getting more and more difficult for newcomers?  I agree there is alot to digest, but difficulty hasn't curved any.   I'm looking forward to further discussion.

I like that.

Had a burst of ideas today but most of them are bad.

My original though was: since they have access to all these early mission on cetus, that'll be a goal to get to and since gara drop in the bounties they'll spend quite some time in the plains.

The default of my reasonning are they can't have gara bp and they are struggling to level their S#&$ because of a lack of ressources. (Time when being an elit is an handicap)

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

1 hour ago, angias said:

I like that.

Had a burst of ideas today but most of them are bad.

My original though was: since they have access to all these early mission on cetus, that'll be a goal to get to and since gara drop in the bounties they'll spend quite some time in the plains.

The default of my reasonning are they can't have gara bp and they are struggling to level their S#&$ because of a lack of ressources. (Time when being an elit is an handicap)

Nah there's a whole system of planets to get through, not to mention there are far easier frames to get earlier on, and they're -all- good, so.... 

A big part of the beauty of Warframe is there is no "correct" path to take.  Players can pick their battles, quite literally, each and every day.  

[Methanoid]

10 hours ago, angias said:

Why do you always bring the perspective of vets, i am talking about casual and new players.

i have multiple accounts, 1 of which is the lowest mr required to do sorties and i have horrible/virtually no good gear, sorties can still be facerolled to an extent, the supposed difficulty is not the mobs lvls or other supposed difficultys, its more down to knowledge, as such "new" players will obv struggle, but not because the content is hard, but because they lack the knowledge or simple time served to collect more stuff to enable them to faceroll sorties.

new player, casual or old, sorties are not "hard", not now and not when newer content drops either, i dont see the issue here?

[Methanoid]

3 hours ago, angias said:

I like that.

Had a burst of ideas today but most of them are bad.

My original though was: since they have access to all these early mission on cetus, that'll be a goal to get to and since gara drop in the bounties they'll spend quite some time in the plains.

The default of my reasonning are they can't have gara bp and they are struggling to level their S#&$ because of a lack of ressources. (Time when being an elit is an handicap)

when on 1 hand you say "newcomers" and on the other mention "amps" exactly what MR range are you talking about, because actual raw newcomers wont have operator mode until MR5, often closer to MR8.  Anyone lower than that absolutely is wasting their time in cetus and should be on the starmap, however as usual, given that warframe explains nothing to new players, its not hard to see why bonafide raw new players have as many issues as they do.

[Methanoid]

10 hours ago, GunRunnerX said:

Very true, although I would also add that this is not exclusive to vets.  You really don't need a ton of progress to find yourself in this boat, it because just another alert without too much in frames/gear/upgrades. 

 

There's really not even an attempt to make something that's truly aligned to veterans or those with large amounts of progress.  But this boils down to the fact that DE doesn't make money off the vets, vets don't need to purchase plat for their needs as much as new players will.  This is the elephant in the room no one likes to bring up.

its this exact reason i ended up with 4 accounts for differing goals in mind, when you run out of things to do as a vet, you either bail to another game while waiting to see if there is any relevance to you in the next expansion drop, you can just plug away in total boredom on your regular account, probably spending most of your days chatting to ppl or you can do what a lot of vets did in 2013/2014 which is making alt accounts and spending time starting from scratch but throwing in your own gimmick/challenge to keep you interested/occupied and potentially throwing money at DE, this however is not as easy nowadays unless u just want near identical accounts with high MR.

[angias]

I often forget that, by the time they reach mr 8 they are still discovering the game.

An mr5 asked me what was statut chance for.

So in general i surestimate new players, eventhough that the core game will get harder, new player will stay newbie for the same length of time.

Making sortie "harder" will only push it further in the game progression.

[Reican]

On 2018-07-29 at 7:09 PM, angias said:

The new content constanly comme at a higuer lvl and the difference between late lvl mission and sortie become thiner and thiner.

I would like to hear your ideas on how to fix this.

The only Idea that comme to me is raising sortie lvl.

Just use a frame you dont use often with using or weapons set to not to vaporize with a sneeze. For example, yesterday, just for the fun of it, I ran sortie with Rhino and Jat kittag only. also the day before I did the same. it was more fun just hammering things than just sneeze in their general direction to kill them

Edited August 10, 2018 by Reican

[angias]

il y a une heure, Reican a dit :

Just use a frame you dont use often with using or weapons set to not to vaporize with a sneeze. For example, yesterday, just for the fun of it, I ran sortie with Rhino and Jat kittag only. also the day before I did the same. it was more fun just hammering things than just sneeze in their general direction to kill them

You are in the early stage of elitism.

But you are right in a way, been a long time since last time i did sortie with mk1 weapons.

Thas was rude of me to formulate it like that, but you get the picture.

Edited August 10, 2018 by angias

[(PSN)supernova_girlie]

The recent tactical alert was pure fun. I got to show off my OP builds and dust off my specters! However, I'm afraid that if we get permanent missions like this it will make any future tactical alerts a bit redundant; tenno will have nothing which to look forward.

Right now we have The Mot and Elite Sanctuary Onslaught for anything close to endgame. I've been hitting the Mot to farm the newly un-vaulted relics and, let me tell you, it's been one big revive-the-MR20+ nightmare! So when I see players claiming how easy the game is I cringe, because I'm not seeing anyone skating through the Mot unscathed unless they're using Inaros! I believe the devs have the data on this and most likely would ramp things up a bit if things were truly as easy as some may say they are.

Another point I'd like to bring up is that ESO is a bit of a let down for me. Either you go in there with the four main powerhouse warframes and happily pick up your goodies or you end up bleeding out, causing the efficiency to be 25% lower than it should be and just overall forcing your squad mates to carry you. For the longest Ember has been the main frame that doesn't scale well, but with ESO, I find that 75% of the frames are not adequate for this activity. What a shame! It's like the weapons all over again. I'm afraid to say that DE may have just created a showcase for Saryn's beautiful rework and not an integral challenging event that encourages the use of different gear.

I favor the idea of having difficulty levels for each node on each planet. I imagine that it would be as simple as the simulacrum for the devs to implement. When we click on a node we get several options for difficulty level and that would clear up any problems for public squads. Tenno that want more a challenge can opt for "Hydron, Sedna 150-300" and those that are more casual can choose the normal level for this node. For me, this is the ideal method for providing that needed challenge.

@Taishin_IshuI just want to say that for this entire thread you have been spot on! All of your points have substance and are based in the reality of the game. It's a breath of fresh air to see another Tenno that truthfully expresses the Warframe experience and it proves that you actually play the game! Thank you!

[angias]

il y a 34 minutes, (PS4)supernova_girlie a dit :

The recent tactical alert was pure fun. I got to show off my OP builds and dust off my specters! However, I'm afraid that if we get permanent missions like this it will make any future tactical alerts a bit redundant; tenno will have nothing which to look forward.

Right now we have The Mot and Elite Sanctuary Onslaught for anything close to endgame. I've been hitting the Mot to farm the newly un-vaulted relics and, let me tell you, it's been one big revive-the-MR20+ nightmare! So when I see players claiming how easy the game is I cringe, because I'm not seeing anyone skating through the Mot unscathed unless they're using Inaros! I believe the devs have the data on this and most likely would ramp things up a bit if things were truly as easy as some may say they are.

Another point I'd like to bring up is that ESO is a bit of a let down for me. Either you go in there with the four main powerhouse warframes and happily pick up your goodies or you end up bleeding out, causing the efficiency to be 25% lower than it should be and just overall forcing your squad mates to carry you. For the longest Ember has been the main frame that doesn't scale well, but with ESO, I find that 75% of the frames are not adequate for this activity. What a shame! It's like the weapons all over again. I'm afraid to say that DE may have just created a showcase for Saryn's beautiful rework and not an integral challenging event that encourages the use of different gear.

I favor the idea of having difficulty levels for each node on each planet. I imagine that it would be as simple as the simulacrum for the devs to implement. When we click on a node we get several options for difficulty level and that would clear up any problems for public squads. Tenno that want more a challenge can opt for "Hydron, Sedna 150-300" and those that are more casual can choose the normal level for this node. For me, this is the ideal method for providing that needed challenge.

@Taishin_IshuI just want to say that for this entire thread you have been spot on! All of your points have substance and are based in the reality of the game. It's a breath of fresh air to see another Tenno that truthfully expresses the Warframe experience and it proves that you actually play the game! Thank you!

Another proof that someone else than me should have brough the subject to light. (Tackled it by accident, just wanted the "endgame content" to feel like endgame)

Never though increasing the difficulty of sortie would impact event and tactical alert.

Forget the suggestion of making sortie harder.

Just pointing out that the core game difficulty increase while the one of sortie stay the same.

Edited August 10, 2018 by angias

[Pooroldude]

I wish sortie was a choose your poison nightmare mode.

Imagine radiation hazard and restricted to bows only in a lua defense.

Obviously each modifier would have to grant some sort of reward benefit to incentivise the unpopular mods.

Now sortie allows you to have it easy or hard however you like! Hows that for a change.

[GPrime96]

49 minutes ago, (PS4)supernova_girlie said:

The recent tactical alert was pure fun. I got to show off my OP builds and dust off my specters! However, I'm afraid that if we get permanent missions like this it will make any future tactical alerts a bit redundant; tenno will have nothing which to look forward.

Right now we have The Mot and Elite Sanctuary Onslaught for anything close to endgame. I've been hitting the Mot to farm the newly un-vaulted relics and, let me tell you, it's been one big revive-the-MR20+ nightmare! So when I see players claiming how easy the game is I cringe, because I'm not seeing anyone skating through the Mot unscathed unless they're using Inaros! I believe the devs have the data on this and most likely would ramp things up a bit if things were truly as easy as some may say they are.

The Tactical Alert was nice to play in.  The Magnectic Waves and Energy Leeches was annoying but at the same time, it let us use different more rage based tanks like Inaros, Nidus, or Valkyr. Nekros would’ve been a good Alternative too. I tried to do a 60 min run in Mot Yesterday and the furthest i ever gotten there was 58 mins because i was on my last revive and it was a Solo run. But, i never experience enemies damage ramping up so fast in a Survival before. Even at lvl 100 or below, a Corrupted Ancient can one shot you with his hook. Highest i ever seen there was lvl 120+ and i even revived Inaros in Mot when i play that mission in Public.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

1 hour ago, (PS4)supernova_girlie said:

The recent tactical alert was pure fun. I got to show off my OP builds and dust off my specters! However, I'm afraid that if we get permanent missions like this it will make any future tactical alerts a bit redundant; tenno will have nothing which to look forward.

Right now we have The Mot and Elite Sanctuary Onslaught for anything close to endgame. I've been hitting the Mot to farm the newly un-vaulted relics and, let me tell you, it's been one big revive-the-MR20+ nightmare! So when I see players claiming how easy the game is I cringe, because I'm not seeing anyone skating through the Mot unscathed unless they're using Inaros! I believe the devs have the data on this and most likely would ramp things up a bit if things were truly as easy as some may say they are.

Another point I'd like to bring up is that ESO is a bit of a let down for me. Either you go in there with the four main powerhouse warframes and happily pick up your goodies or you end up bleeding out, causing the efficiency to be 25% lower than it should be and just overall forcing your squad mates to carry you. For the longest Ember has been the main frame that doesn't scale well, but with ESO, I find that 75% of the frames are not adequate for this activity. What a shame! It's like the weapons all over again. I'm afraid to say that DE may have just created a showcase for Saryn's beautiful rework and not an integral challenging event that encourages the use of different gear.

I favor the idea of having difficulty levels for each node on each planet. I imagine that it would be as simple as the simulacrum for the devs to implement. When we click on a node we get several options for difficulty level and that would clear up any problems for public squads. Tenno that want more a challenge can opt for "Hydron, Sedna 150-300" and those that are more casual can choose the normal level for this node. For me, this is the ideal method for providing that needed challenge.

@Taishin_IshuI just want to say that for this entire thread you have been spot on! All of your points have substance and are based in the reality of the game. It's a breath of fresh air to see another Tenno that truthfully expresses the Warframe experience and it proves that you actually play the game! Thank you!

I agree 110%!  I see people dying an awful lot for "such an easy, non-challenging, skills-don't-matter game".

Now, mind you, I'm not -judging-.   I die alot, too, on certain missions. Noone's perfect.  My issue comes when people CLAIM to be just that, and can't back it up.  Because it makes people who live in reality, where the game IS challenging in certain respects, feel BAD about "not being as good as them", since "Well, if it's so easy, then I must suck!"  and they give up far too early!

This is why I combat that mentality so hard, because I hate to see young Tenno turn away from what could be an awesome adventure into The Origin System with us because of toxic, misleading viewpoints.

There IS challenge in Warframe, it's different for everyone, and for some it's boring, while others find it exciting....We have differing opinions, and THAT'S OKAY, but it's important to separate opinions from fact, is all.

and thanks for the compliment, though I'm not sure I deserve it.  I just really love Warframe and coming from 30+ years of gaming experience (including development), I just want to see credit given where credit is due.  I detest slander. 

[EpicBred]

Another problem that could be fixed with ng+ and ng++ (at least in my eyes). In the final mission you would now have lvl 200 / lvl 300 enemies, which i would be satisfied with.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

32 minutes ago, EpicBred said:

Another problem that could be fixed with ng+ and ng++ (at least in my eyes). In the final mission you would now have lvl 200 / lvl 300 enemies, which i would be satisfied with.

But there is no "final mission" or "end of the game".  The game is continually in development, with new nodes and missions being added all the time.  So, to say we're "starting over in NG+" would be misleading.

People are just upset that they're approaching the peak of the mountain and, currently, there isn't much left to climb...but that's just how progression works.

This is, however, why DE is working on Melee 3.0, and likely other reworks to come, so that scaling is adjusted to where the player won't outscale the enemies so quickly, making those lvl 100s a bit more of a challenge, and so on.

[angias]

Just me being dumb not figuring out why the triviality of sortie is not a problem. (Triviality comming mainly from my experience)

For God sake, it's a daily activity and it should not be a burden for new player. (Could be a break in a player progression)

[GunRunnerX]

18 hours ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

I bring it up all the time.  I don't think it's a bad thing.  DE is, above all else, a business.  If one demographic keeps the lights on, and the other just kinda hangs out...well....  I can't blame DE for favoring one over the other, can you?

It's misleading to frame it this way, they're only indirectly favoring one demographics vs another as a result of directly favoring their sources of revenue.  While I can't blame a business for wanting to make more money (it only exists for this purpose), but it treads us into dangerous territory where the decisions become exclusively aligned to revenue generation.  If you look at the last several years of development, it's very skewed in this direction.  Not every decision should be made based off the direct return of cash.  There's still potential value to be gained.  And even more important, using revenue as the only justification is also an argument that could be used to defend unscrupulous practices.  Unscrupulous may be the wrong word in this example with DE, but I think the worry is still there.

 

18 hours ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

So I guess what I'm getting at is: Where are you getting the idea that the early game is getting more and more difficult for newcomers?  I agree there is alot to digest, but difficulty hasn't curved any.   I'm looking forward to further discussion.

I don't have much an opinion on the early game as I went passed it years ago so hard for me to say if it's easier or harder than it used to be.  But for sure I can say, the end game while not any easier than it's ever been, there's been a void of incentive to try anything difficult more than once per day.  And honestly there could be more difficult content, it wouldn't be incredibly difficult to implement and make a lot of people happy without screwing over the experience others already enjoy.