Mastery Tests Pointlessness

[Korinra]

I think there is a tremendous misstep in Warframe, something that I'm amazed hasn't changed since it's inception.

 

If you fail a test for Mastery, you are required to wait 24 hours to retake it. Why?

There's no value in making players WAIT to PLAY your game. You don't offer any means to stop the wait, you offer nothing at all but "Now you have to wait 24 hours". Why? All it does is make us NOT able to do that thing we want to do. There's LITERALLY no value in it from a game-maker perspective, from a player perspective. I'll explain:

 

Game Developer Perspective

The value of the Mastery Rank system is to slow progress down and provide more content, behind walls of progress with different things and skill demonstration. However, setting a twenty-four hour lock on the test doesn't IMPROVE this, as experience toward the next rank is still earned, experience still exists, and nothing is provided to the player other than an obligatory delay.

 

Player Perspective

The value of the Mastery Rank system adds necessity to experiencing multiple facets of the game, allowing for the player to benefit from trying things beyond the thing they first find they enjoy. This allows the player to find multiple things they enjoy, which will allow the player to build a collection of warframes, weapons, pets, and even looks to make their game more personal. However, the 24 hour wait delays the benefits of being the next rank with no OTHER punishment. Experience is still earned, even if the rank doesn't increase. This means the added benefits of passing the test are delayed, and that is the ONLY loss.

 

Proposed Solution

It should be obvious, remove the wait requirement. Simply barring the test to loading screens is punishment enough for failing a test. I've earned the rank by gaining experience, don't ALSO add a 24 hour wall with NO way around it. Just remove the wall, and the problem ceases to exist.

[DarkRuler2500]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Korinra:

There's no value in making players WAIT to PLAY your game. You don't offer any means to stop the wait, you offer nothing at all but "Now you have to wait 24 hours". Why? All it does is make us NOT able to do that thing we want to do. There's LITERALLY no value in it from a game-maker perspective, from a player perspective. I'll explain:

Just use Cephalon Simaris' training room.
That is why it is in the game.

[(XBOX)ShadowBlood89]

it a system put in place to make it so you think carefully on each test isntead of constantly throwing yourself into the real test. thats what the practice test are for

[Korinra]

2 minutes ago, DarkRuler2500 said:

Just use Cephalon Simaris' training room.
That is why it is in the game.

To quote:

The Sanctuary is Cephalon Simaris' Syndicate enclave in the Relays. Compared to other Syndicate enclaves, the Sanctuary houses more functions for Tenno to explore, including the Simulacrum, where players can create multiple Mimeographs of enemies; Mastery Rank test trials, where players can practice previously conquered Mastery Rank tests (or prepare for the one at their next rank); and Synthesis Research.

 

The main problem here is, if you make an error, especially on longer tests, you now have to wait 24 hours for your next legitimate tests. Yes I use the practice room to know what to expect, but that doesn't make me perfect, so that means I can make errors like everyone can. This just means, if you DO make an error, now you have to wait 24 hours for your 2nd try. If you can demonstrate how that benefits you as a player, I'm open to that explanation. If not, then it shouldn't really exist in the game.

[Rekkou]

Just now, Korinra said:

To quote:

The Sanctuary is Cephalon Simaris' Syndicate enclave in the Relays. Compared to other Syndicate enclaves, the Sanctuary houses more functions for Tenno to explore, including the Simulacrum, where players can create multiple Mimeographs of enemies; Mastery Rank test trials, where players can practice previously conquered Mastery Rank tests (or prepare for the one at their next rank); and Synthesis Research.

 

The main problem here is, if you make an error, especially on longer tests, you now have to wait 24 hours for your next legitimate tests. Yes I use the practice room to know what to expect, but that doesn't make me perfect, so that means I can make errors like everyone can. This just means, if you DO make an error, now you have to wait 24 hours for your 2nd try. If you can demonstrate how that benefits you as a player, I'm open to that explanation. If not, then it shouldn't really exist in the game.

If any driving test was meant to be so easy that anyone making an error can easily pass, then there will be a lot more accidents, casualties, and deaths in this world. It's better if you made that error in a test than in the real world where other people will be the one that have to pay for your mistakes. So I'd say that's a benefit for everyone else

[WhiteMarker]

It's interesting to see people complaining about the tests, if they fail the test.
"I failed the test, it is pointless".
But clearly it isn't pointless. You need "skill" in order to pass the test. And if you fail, you are just not good enough. You have to train more.

The tests and the waiting time is fine.
If you fail, go get some practice in the relays.
That's all there is to it.

[Deshiel]

It's a good reminder that you shouldn't always jump head on, unprepared into a mission with three other people, where your lack of knowledge or skill dampens the team efficiency and effort.

[Korinra]

2 minutes ago, Deshiel said:

It's a good reminder that you shouldn't always jump head on, unprepared into a mission with three other people, where your lack of knowledge or skill dampens the team efficiency and effort.

Right, that's the test itself. Can you demonstrate how that requires a large window of waiting? Most people have maxed out many warframes and weapons, done high level missions, and do end-game stuff well before they hit mastery 10. Are you saying they need to be taught that basic lesson between their end-game content for making a simple mistake? I'd like some more clarification on your comment, because it's not taking the majority of end-game content users who haven't hit mastery 30 yet into account.

Now if you want to remind people of something like that, you provide a test-wall where they can advance by passing it, much like the mastery test works now. However, failing it just does a "Mission Failed" screen, kicks you back to your ship, and lets you retry it. Can you name another game that even uses a 'wait 24 hours' mechanic that ISN'T some mobile game that tries to make you pay NOT to wait? This is wholly unique to Warframe, and serves no purpose.

[GnarlsDarkley]

4 minutes ago, Korinra said:

serves no purpose

Punishment for being bad. End of discussion

Go train until you succeed 3 or 4 times in a row before doing the actual test

 

edit: I failed MR test 19 - Stealth Rescue for 7 days. And why did I fail this often? Because I was too thick to use Gunblade. After finding my Error this Test was a piece of cake

Edited August 4, 2018 by GnarlsDarkley

[Korinra]

9 minutes ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

Punishment for being bad. End of discussion

Go train until you succeed 3 or 4 times in a row before doing the actual test

 

edit: I failed MR test 19 - Stealth Rescue for 7 days. And why did I fail this often? Because I was too thick to use Gunblade. After finding my Error this Test was a piece of cake

And you don't realize the hypocrisy here? Do you think you need 7 days to learn to use gunblade? Did that week benefit you AT ALL beyond just doing it 7 times? Taking your direct account into consideration, what did you benefit from that 168 hours minimum of waiting that didn't come from trying 7 times?

[GnarlsDarkley]

1 minute ago, Korinra said:

Did that week benefit you AT ALL beyond just doing it 7 times?

Yes, It made me think differently if my attempts are not working.

And I got punished for being dumb not getting this idea earlier which was 1k Standing less per day.

And after I finally got the test done I was releaved and somewhat happy. If you can fail without punishment what is a follwing success worth? Exactly - nothing

[Korinra]

7 minutes ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

Yes, It made me think differently if my attempts are not working.

And I got punished for being dumb not getting this idea earlier which was 1k Standing less per day.

 And after I finally got the test done I was releaved and somewhat happy. If you can fail without punishment what is a follwing success worth? Exactly - nothing

To point 1) The time BETWEEN tests made you think differently? Or failing it 7 times made you think differently? You're keen to the fact that I'm asking about the time BETWEEN tests is all I'm asking about, right?

 

To point 2) Sure, a punishment is fine. Maybe make it cost credits to retake so you lose in-game money each time, so you have to take time to consider how it could be done differently. The cost could scale with the level of the test so beginners are given a slap on the wrist, but reaching rank 30 is a heavy punishment for failing.

 

To point 3) Learning from one's mistakes is gratifying, but I do agree with your reiterated point about needing a punishment, thus I would like to also reiterate, an in-game money punishment makes WAY more sense. What would it be worth without a punishment? Well the time wasted retaking the test 7 times because you didn't change you methods would be a punishment for not trying something different would of course be a punishment. However, learning FROM the 6 prior mistakes is what you earned, it had nothing to do with waiting 24 hours in between each one.

[Deshiel]

Did 23 mastery tests so far, only failed at 3-4 of them, the rest was soundly oneshot. I'm no pro, but I pay attention. Some mastery ranks pretty much require you to utilise what you have learned in your day to day gaming, If you are not in touch with your controls and you fail, you have 24hours to practice and better yourself.

[MystMan]

So you have to wait an extra day to be allowed that one extra trade, that one little extra syndicate rep, etc. Hardly a significant loss. In the meantime, whatever MR points you earn during that time, still carries over to the next MR rank after you pass. It doesn't go to waste.  There is no pointless punishment.  Whatever you were doing in WF all this time during your time at Mastery Rank X will still be there when you reach Mastery Rank X+1.  

GnarlsDarkley's post is an excellent example as to why MR tests are helpful.  They force you to think outside of the box and expand your game style, you become better at the game this way. Bad gamers are those who keep doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results and blame everything else when that method fails them.

I've seen some posts saying platform jumping MR tests are pointless.  Guess those people will sing a different tune once the parkour heavy gas city gets released. And these same people are likely also bad at spy because there are several spy rooms that require jumping with precision instead of hurling oneself like a majestic elephant straight into lasers. Players I see doing that have zero sense of aerial jumping control, they simply can't be bothered to learn it.  I wouldn't be surprised when stealth one day becomes an important game feature, so "pointless stealth test" will also become a thing of the past.

Also, depending on the MR test, some give 1 chance but others give 3 chances to succeed. When somebody makes a rant post about the latter blaming the "pointlessness of MR tests" and say they practiced, then their definition of practice must be "I practiced a few times so this means I won't fail the real test", which is obviously wrong.  If one TRULY practiced and mastered it, then the test will be done without problems.

Those who fail MR tests are likely the ones who keep making these "Remove XYZ because I keep failing it" threads. So many of them.  When you encounter adversity, stop and think instead of impulsively go on a rant. Or search/ask for advice, look how others are doing it. 

[(PSN)Schobii564]

4 hours ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

Punishment for being bad. End of discussion

Go train until you succeed 3 or 4 times in a row before doing the actual test

 

edit: I failed MR test 19 - Stealth Rescue for 7 days. And why did I fail this often? Because I was too thick to use Gunblade. After finding my Error this Test was a piece of cake

Or zaw with exodia contagion

[Vennia]

What about for lower levels though? Even this idea of completing the tests before being completely level locked seems kind of flawed. I had just started and could've reached rank two a few hours into the game, but I'm locked at mastery one waiting for nearly twenty four hours just to be able to trade and access different weapons of the variety I usually choose to use. Aside from the idea of even failing, this is a serious turn off for new players. I like this game a lot, but this is such a frustrating concept that I kind of question why they do it. I get that later levels, there's no possibility of being able to level once a day, but to not even be able to trade with friends who've played or really experience a whole lot of the game for a bare minimum of a full day. Seems like a big flaw when games need to struggle to hook new players in.

Edited August 4, 2018 by Vennia

[GnarlsDarkley]

 

3 hours ago, (PS4)Schobii564 said:

Or zaw with exodia contagion

Sadly there were no Zaws two years ago when I had to complete it 😄

[Korinra]

5 hours ago, MystMan said:

So you have to wait an extra day to be allowed that one extra trade, that one little extra syndicate rep, etc. Hardly a significant loss. In the meantime, whatever MR points you earn during that time, still carries over to the next MR rank after you pass. It doesn't go to waste.  There is no pointless punishment.  Whatever you were doing in WF all this time during your time at Mastery Rank X will still be there when you reach Mastery Rank X+1.  

GnarlsDarkley's post is an excellent example as to why MR tests are helpful.  They force you to think outside of the box and expand your game style, you become better at the game this way. Bad gamers are those who keep doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results and blame everything else when that method fails them.

I've seen some posts saying platform jumping MR tests are pointless.  Guess those people will sing a different tune once the parkour heavy gas city gets released. And these same people are likely also bad at spy because there are several spy rooms that require jumping with precision instead of hurling oneself like a majestic elephant straight into lasers. Players I see doing that have zero sense of aerial jumping control, they simply can't be bothered to learn it.  I wouldn't be surprised when stealth one day becomes an important game feature, so "pointless stealth test" will also become a thing of the past.

Also, depending on the MR test, some give 1 chance but others give 3 chances to succeed. When somebody makes a rant post about the latter blaming the "pointlessness of MR tests" and say they practiced, then their definition of practice must be "I practiced a few times so this means I won't fail the real test", which is obviously wrong.  If one TRULY practiced and mastered it, then the test will be done without problems.

Those who fail MR tests are likely the ones who keep making these "Remove XYZ because I keep failing it" threads. So many of them.  When you encounter adversity, stop and think instead of impulsively go on a rant. Or search/ask for advice, look how others are doing it. 

Did you read the post? I feel like you didn't because I said none of the stuff you're addressing in this post. Not ONE thing did you imply I said is in the initial post. I LIKE the MR tests, they make a lot of sense to the game. So I encourage you to go back to the initial post and read it before replying. I'm not asking for the difficulty to be changed or the test be removed, I enjoy those aspects, but telling me I need to do something, then telling me I have to wait to do it, well that's mixed messages. If the missions were completely optional and just reaching the needed experience leveled me up, I'd still do those tests, the tests are useful to learn different aspects. What I'm disapproving is the obligatory 24 hours of not being allowed to play a part of the game that gives rewards that have already been earned by experience.

 

8 hours ago, Deshiel said:

Did 23 mastery tests so far, only failed at 3-4 of them, the rest was soundly oneshot. I'm no pro, but I pay attention. Some mastery ranks pretty much require you to utilise what you have learned in your day to day gaming, If you are not in touch with your controls and you fail, you have 24hours to practice and better yourself.

Oh I was hoping someone would mention this. How many hours do you have in the game, and are you end-game? If you're end-game, IE doing the hardest missions available, you have had enough practice doing every single mission in the game, to be able to pass a test. That STILL doesn't mean you'll always pass them, to err is human. During that 24 hours, what additional practice (besides the entire game's worth of practice) do you need to do what boils down to a tutorial of HOW to play the game in a specific way? If you fail test 24, the next one you have up, what will you learn that you don't already know from playing every mission available? The problem isn't the test itself, but the fact that you have to wait. If you're rank 23, you KNOW how to play the game, you've been doing so for long enough to say you know how. If you're saying you need 24 hours to reflect on the failure to learn from it, I'm sorry but I disagree with that statement.

 

2 hours ago, Vennia said:

What about for lower levels though? Even this idea of completing the tests before being completely level locked seems kind of flawed. I had just started and could've reached rank two a few hours into the game, but I'm locked at mastery one waiting for nearly twenty four hours just to be able to trade and access different weapons of the variety I usually choose to use. Aside from the idea of even failing, this is a serious turn off for new players. I like this game a lot, but this is such a frustrating concept that I kind of question why they do it. I get that later levels, there's no possibility of being able to level once a day, but to not even be able to trade with friends who've played or really experience a whole lot of the game for a bare minimum of a full day. Seems like a big flaw when games need to struggle to hook new players in.

Right, and while I agree  that there should be a lock that players can't trade or anything until they've done a few missions and proven that they understand the absolute basics of the game enough, if the whole point of the mastery system is to make players try new things, why are we barring them from trying new things? I agree with you that this is a terrible way for newer players to experience the game.

[DeMonkey]

10 hours ago, Korinra said:

There's no value in making players WAIT to PLAY your game.

There's also no value in a test that can be retaken as many times as you want with no repercussion.

[MystMan]

Without the waiting time, people will brute-force their way past the tests not learning anything and continue to play in their initial limited & restrictive game style. The waiting is needed for the player to self-reflect "what did I do wrong and how can I do better?".  Most people do this, a few will instead angst about it. Even if the wait time was 12 hours, 6 hours, 1 hour, people will still complain about that.

Edited August 4, 2018 by MystMan

[Korinra]

Just now, DeMonkey said:

There's also no value in a test that can be retaken as many times as you want with no repercussion.

That is a circular argument, sorry.
I am allowed to retake it as many times as I want in practice. I am then allowed to use that practice to retake it, but this time it's the real test. Retaking tests grants no benefit. Ok, so why is there a free to use completely unlocked sample test that can be repeated without lockouts indefinitely? The game developers clearly think there is value in being allowed to retake indefinitely, or they wouldn't provide the samples that allow you to do exactly that. Players think there is value in retaking it, as they've recommended it in this thread. Everyone seems to agree retakes without repercussion is ok or they wouldn't be suggesting the Cephalon  Simaris' training room.

 

1 minute ago, MystMan said:

Without the waiting time, people will brute-force their way past the tests not learning anything and continue to play in their initial limited & restrictive game style. The waiting is needed for the player to self-reflect "what did I do wrong and how can I do better?".  Most people do this, a few will instead angst about it.

Again I ask, what is the point of the Cephalon  Simaris' training room then? It PURELY allows you to learn the exact means to beat any test simply by brute forcing a solution. The tests aren't randomized, so the Cephalon  Simaris' training room allows you to literally just memorize everything and repeat it on the real test. I for one didn't like that approach, I'd rather learn the skill not the test. I do the Cephalon  Simaris' training room to see what the test will entail, so I can practice it while I'm leveling up, what you're implying is practicing within the real game is pointless, since I will have time between test attempts that I'm FORCED to contemplate it. Since there's no punishment for failing beyond that, why waste any time practicing during real missions?

 

Or... make the skills it teaches something that's so relevant that by the time you're taking the tests, you are exceeding at them. Then ramp up from there. Remember, you're not just allowed to skip huge segments of the game to jump to MR30, you have to earn all the experience. If you can find a way to get to MR30 without experiencing end-game stuff, I'd be amazed. This means you've had enough practice to do everything the game offers, but if you mess up a test, well you need 24 hours to contemplate WHY you failed. No you don't. If you're an intelligent human being (I suspect most people who can coherently communicate are), then why do you need 24 hours to contemplate anything? Do you need 24 hours to contemplate other mistakes you make in real life or do you often just go, "Oh that was stupid", and immediately realize that YOU made the mistake? When practicing a sport, do you fail one time and then go home for 24 hours before practice? No, you practice the same thing over and over until you're good enough to do it in the real game.

 

This is the practice field, the test is not the real game.The skill learned in the practice field will not be the same on every mission. We won't always need that specific skill even. How many missions do you need stealth for instance? A handful, so it's important to practice the skill. This DOESN'T mean that failing means you don't understand the skill, it just means you need to look at the same situation again and say, "OK I evaluated this wrong, what ELSE am I needing to pay attention to?". Does that take 24 hours to do? I say no, no it doesn't.

[MystMan]

Simaris practice is no different than doing homework or sports training. They're there to make you master the skill. When you do the final exam / championship, you get ONE chance at them. Fail them and you get to practice and wait a whole year or season to try again. Makes that 24 hour wait look tame in comparison.

Putting emphasis on the school example, it doesn't matter that you (very likely) might not need the learned skill at all later in life or that it doesn't apply in practice to real life situations;  it's put there as the standard skill level for everybody else, you are expected to be good at it and get a passing grade.  That's it.

[Korinra]

2 minutes ago, MystMan said:

Simaris practice is no different than doing homework or sports training. They're there to make you master the skill. When you do the final exam / championship, you get ONE chance at them. Fail them and you get to practice and wait a whole year or season to try again. Makes that 24 hour wait look tame in comparison.

Putting emphasis on the school example, it doesn't matter that you (very likely) might not need the learned skill at all later in life or that it doesn't apply in practice to real life situations;  it's put there as the standard skill level for everybody else, you are expected to be good at it and get a passing grade.  That's it.

Again I want to thank you for your willingness to use examples that work for the argument you're making. This helps explain my side too. Did you know, many schools allow test retakes? A lot of them even allow it as an 'after class' thing. The reason is, they see a lot of students do well with their usual work (missions), and the student was able to pass their sample test (Cephalon  Simaris' training room), but failed the regular test (MR Test).

 

So using that exact analogy, I do fine on missions. I did practice the Cephalon  Simaris' training room, and passed the test there. Then minor missteps bring a mistake to light. I don't need 24 hours to know what I did wrong, I spend time in missions and in the Cephalon  Simaris' training room learning what to do, I don't need more time to learn it. In the school scenario, before I even went home from school I'd be allowed at least one additional try. In some districts and parts of the world, that additional try isn't even optional. That's because repetition as a means to learn a skill (IE retakes), are BETTER learned without time spent in between tries.

[SilencE81]

I'm currently stuck at mastery test 8 atm because WHY?!!?! THE F ARE THOSE BS THINGS IN HERE!!!!!!! If i wanna jump and S#&$ i'll play Fing mario crap games.

[Guest]

I'm pretty okay with the timer. It gives you time to reflect about what you did wrong and practice a bit.

However I think it would also be nice to have three attempts in any test. In some tests, like the stealth ones, you have 3 chances at it, but there are a few tests where one mistake = failure.