Log in Dailies: Rerevisited.

[JaredWolf]

Greetings Tenno,

So I've been having some thoughts, and after seeing a lot of people ('veterans') complain about the mock-up of the daily login system, before we even got real solid information. I waited for DE to release more information. They finally have. Have the complaints of the veterans' and sympathetic new players' been heard? No, quite the opposite actually. This new system doesn't just mess with veterans; it also messes with everyone in the game. Before starting I'd like to state this is all my opinion, and can be 100% incorrect. So please comment below and tell me about what you disagree with.  (Tip, there is a lot to read here. And I write as if I am speaking, so it might help to read it with a lot of pauses, and not straight through like an essay)

We need to cover some bases before continuing about the log in system. First and foremost, what the veterans' have been saying. Why are they complaining? Because they clicked [Play] for 900+ days to get all their rewards. And with the new changes, it seems someone who just started playing, at 100 days can now get what veterans' had to wait 300 days, or 500 days, etc. That is a bit of a slap in the face. What else is there to be heard? Prestige. This fancy word people like to use a lot in the MMO Genre. So lets take a look into that; and a few other definitions.

• Prestige: "reputation or influence arising from success, achievement, rank, or other favorable attributes. Distinction or reputation attaching to a person or thing and thus possessing a cachet for others or for the public"  (Urban Dictionary this, I think you'll get a laugh, I know I did).
  Cachet: "a sign or expression of approval, especially from a person who has a great deal of prestige."
• Veteran: "a person of long experience usually in some occupation or skill".
• Reward: "something given or received in return or recompense for service, merit, hardship, etc.".
  Merit: "something that deserves or justifies a reward or commendation; a commendable quality, act, etc."

I've put in bold the words that I feel should carry more weight. Prestige makes you stand out, based on possessing a cachet. (Cosmetics rings a bell, doesn't it?) And you get prestige by earning it through merit, success, and achievement. Lastly, a veteran is simply someone who has a lot of experience; usually dictated by time spent to gain said experience.

So with all of that said. Do people who reached a time-gated milestone, sound like a veteran? Does that sound like something to be rewarded? That depends on every single situation; it was a trick question. There are people who've, since the start of the log in system, logged in and played hundreds to thousands of hours. But there are also those who simply just logged in at reset, gotten their log in credit, and logged back out. There are plenty of people in-between those two extremes. So that question can't really be answered without a strong bias. Loyalty also gets tied into this. Can reaching the milestone for logging in show personal loyalty? This is not a trick question, the answer is no. Because of what I explained above.

So we're going to continue using this basis. Time spent != mean loyalty. Nor does it mean you're a veteran, or warrant prestige In the terms of log-in.
We're going to drill that in once more.

Prestige is from achievement and merit, which is shown off by standing and possession of something. In which veterans will 'tend' to have.

Lets take a look at one of my favorite, and least favorite examples of Prestige.

Runescape: Cape of Accomplishment. As the name sounds. It is a cape (cosmetic) that you can wear after achieving an accomplishment (obtaining a max skill, or completing every single quest). To get that max skill (level 99) you need to play the game for a pretty long time doing something. In the time it took to get that, it is highly unlikely that you are new, or inexperienced of that particular skill. Taking this even further, when you get another skill maxed out the capes will change graphically. They will look more fancy with a trimming around it. And players get specific emote when wearing the cape. There is another version, for a "master cape of accomplishment" and this simply makes the cape have more visual effects. (All versions provide ingame effects depending on the skill but they're not some game breaking advantage either).

Guild Wars 2: Legendary weapons. At release, these weapons were one of the coolest obtainable weapons you could get. They had visual effects when you equipped it, when you ran you left special footprints, they had unique audio effects, and certain skills effects visually change to reflect that you used that weapon. Having one early on showed that you clearly played the game a lot. You knew where to farm and what events to do etc. But as time went on, there were hundreds if not thousands of people who would convert real life cash into premium and then in-game cash; and simply buy the legendary itself (off the market from someone selling one they made) or the materials needed to make it, and then click a few buttons and make it that way. This was completely legal due to how the way ArenaNet made their premium cash store work. But those items lost prestige instantly as soon as the availability became more public. Due to cash conversion, and ease of availability.

There we have two examples of what makes, in my opinion, a good example of prestige, and bad example of prestige. Now at this point you might have connected the dots a little bit. The second example sounds a lot like what DE is planning with the new log in system. They have thankfully reverted their idea of selling these items, but it doesn't change the fact that they'll be as easily obtainable.

Both examples show the achievement of the player. But one cannot be bought, or fast forwarded to obtain it faster. This is what helps keep prestige effective. It is only natural that something obtainable by any, will eventually be obtained by all. The original people who got the skill capes, or the legendaries, felt cool and prestigious. But if you look at the game now. Its almost as if you get it for making a character after buying the game. This is nearly unavoidable, I certainly cannot think of something, without bouncing ideas off the drawing board, that would fix that. And truth be told, the current, or planned log in system does not give that guarantee either. Eventually everyone will get to the 1000th day log in, and it won't feel special anymore. Log-in Rewards should NOT contain "prestigious" items. In all honesty, Log-in rewards are a catch-up mechanic.

So hopefully this clears up prestige, which is mainly what the veterans want. Something to show their dedication and time investment into the game. But remember, time investment isn't the only part of the formula to prestige.

Going onto the next subject, yes you read that right, there is more to read. All of what I put above, is for the Veterans'. Its time to talk about the new players.

What is it that new players want? Quick answer is "everything under the sun". But they mainly want to play all the content in the game and not be stuck in the "starter" content zone. So this is the reason developers started making catch-up rewards. to keep new players invested into the game, by giving a false sense of accomplishment. You didn't earn those, you were given those. New players will always want the "shinny things" that everyone else has. Which effectively increases, but in the long term removes, prestige. You feel good when someone asks you about your prestigious item. But odds are, it won't last forever; and that's okay.

I know that was really quick for new players. But to be honest, that isn't my target subject to this giant post.

There were things that added prestige into warframe, no one said there wasn't. Excalibur Prime, Vandal Set, and all the other event based, or founder based items. But Lets be real here. Excalibur Prime is statistically even with Excalibur Umbra (After getting rejected to give everyone Excalibur Prime, they went ahead and did it anyway, but made him look cooler). Naturally this wouldn't be that bad of a problem. Everyone has Excalibur Umbra, he was given out for free. Only the founders still have Excalibur Prime; but his visuals are extremely outdated. The Vandal sets are given out in alerts for all to take, so that is no longer prestigious either. While there isn't really anything to do for the Vandal set there is still something you can do for the founders. Give Excalibur Prime a complete VGU (Visual Gameplay Update). Make him look really cool really stylish, and maybe touch his passive and skillset (maybe not change his 2, but change his 3 or 4) Could make the visuals of his Exalted Blade look more flashier than Normal or Umbra variants. Ask the founders' what they'd like to see done to their Prestigious Excalibur Prime. As for Veterans' who aren't founders, this obviously won't do much for them. So this will bring us to my suggestion to the log-in system--after I talk about log-in systems as a whole.

I mentioned catch-up mechanics before. Log-in system is one such mechanic. It's suppose to help players catch up to the veterans' and existing player base so they don't feel excluded or stuck in quicksand. Does giving them a once semi-exclusive weapon/mod catch them up in warframe? I mean with the Zenistar they certainly can play like a veteran by hiding out of LoS and spam skills and the Zenistar (I kid, I kid). Jokes aside, no it doesn't. So what should a log-in system look like then? Lets take a look at one that I think did it correctly.

• Guild Wars 2: Log in System.
  Their system for log-in works well because nothing is too advantageous, and nothing is prestigious. But a downside could be, its the same rewards every single month. No "RNG" to what you'll get like in Warframe. Maybe I get credit booster, maybe 10000 credits. Guild wars 2 on the other hand. Offers crafting resources, and other things to help progress your account faster, level up scrolls, Luck (to "increase" drops), cheap cash shop items, like access bank or market anywhere, exp boosters, drop chance boosters, things to transmute gear appearances, etc. After you reach 30 days, which doesn't reset on you if you miss a day, the log in rewards reset. And its the same as last month. This system will help new players catch-up not by having things given to them, but giving them the means to get it sooner. This is the system I suggest Warframe uses for their Log-in System.

With that out of the way we can start the main subject. Warframes' Log-in System.
I suggest that the log in rewards be nothing cosmetic, or usable weapon/frame etc. But instead give chance at resources harder to obtain. And these % chance will change with Mastery Rank.

• Low Mastery Ranking:
  • you have a higher chance to get things, like Gallium, Tellurium, Neurodes, 90 minute boosters, credits, etc. All things that you'd commonly need to grind at that Mastery Rank.
• Medium Mastery Ranking:
  • At this point you'll need to be either grinding more quantity of what you've already been getting, or you'll need to start getting new resources. So; you get less % chance to get those resources from before, but you get higher amounts if you do get it. At this point you also get Endo, 2 hour boosters instead of 90, Oxium, Mutagen Samples, Cryotic, Forma blueprints, and 20-50% platinum discount. With a slight chance at Nitain Extract.
• High Mastery Ranking:
  • At this point you no longer get things like Gallium, Tellurium, and all the more common of rare material. But if you do, once again its a huge quantity. You get more Endo, 3 hour boosters, More Oxium, Mutagen Samples, Full Forma/Reactors/Catalysts, higher chance at Nitain Extract, and a chance at a good chunk of Kuva. You also get 50-75% off platinum instead of 20-50%.

That is just a rough idea. Something I thought of right before making this post, after reading the blog post by Rebecca. So it might not be balance, or coherent. But as writing it, it makes sense on paper. Now if this was to be the new log in system, you're probably asking one main question right now. What happens to the current rewards of the present system? So excluding the normal rewards and looking at whats really important; the milestone rewards. My suggestion is to place the Primed mods on Baro's list at a much lower chance than normal primed mods. And the weapons and cosmetics items, to be not removed from the game. But left with the people who've already received them. This way, you get to keep what you took the time to log in for, whether it was simply click and get, or actual log in and play time. And without being able to get it anymore, it will add prestige to the item. Especially the cosmetic rewards. The new rewards wouldn't have the same problem, and would be rather future proof. Veterans' get their prestige, and new players get their catch-up mechanics. At that point its up to DE to not mess up and give people these items at a later date.

Two more things to note before I sign off on this massive post.

A problem with the proposed new system, is you're possibly furthering someones reward (This looks like it would be fixed according to Rebecca's update to the proposed milestone rewards, but is still worth noting). So I recommend that of the day of the update for the log-in revamp. Everyone unlocks their closest milestone (unless they're nowhere close. Like if they're at 456 the next milestone is Zenith. They wouldn't unlock it, but if you're at like 486 then you're pretty close so you'd get it). Not to sure on this part here, but I think it would be fair to people?

Lastly, I feel this change would help all, instead of hurt all. Because players will be able to farm new frames, weapons, riven rolls, etc sooner. And its more oriented towards how useful that resource would be towards your general mastery rank. But all of that can be changed based on balance. But with all this said. I'm not sure if it is best to leave everyones log in days the same. Or if everyone should be reset to zero. Technically this won't cause a problem, as there aren't really any Milestones anymore. (Unless we want milestones to be something like massive quantity of things. Like 10 Forma, or 50k Kuva etc).

To all of those who read this all. Thank you, and I hope to see what you have to say in the comments.

Edited August 22, 2018 by JaredWolf

[LSG501]

Waits for the 'but it's just logging in for 2 mins, it's no effort' type replies....

[JaredWolf]

1 minute ago, LSG501 said:

Waits for the 'but it's just logging in for 2 mins, it's no effort' type replies....

They wouldn't be wrong. All I need to do is click steam, click play, click the box, and then quit game. And I get the log in reward. That isn't effort. If that takes effort for someone, they might have more problems than a games' log in rewards.

[LSG501]

Just now, JaredWolf said:

They wouldn't be wrong. All I need to do is click steam, click play, click the box, and then quit game. And I get the log in reward. That isn't effort. If that takes effort for someone, they might have more problems than a games' log in rewards.

Try doing it for close to 1000 days, every day without fail.... it might sound easy but it's not as easy as people try to make out

[Gabbynaru]

1 minute ago, LSG501 said:

Try doing it for close to 1000 days, every day without fail.... it might sound easy but it's not as easy as people try to make out

Unless you are desperate to get it every day to be there first (for some reason), yeah... it really is that easy. I'm at 900+, been burnt out since PoE, still did it.

[Mk.1]

Quite the wall of text ya got there.

[JaredWolf]

8 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Try doing it for close to 1000 days, every day without fail.... it might sound easy but it's not as easy as people try to make out

Yeah I can see your point. If I didn't care for the reward, but still kinda wanted it. I'd have a hard time logging in for 1000 days.
But if I really wanted it. I would have set an alarm and done it. So once more, it boils down to situational effort. You might have 1000 days logged in, you also might have like 50 hours playtime within that timeframe (or what ever the actual mathematical minimum would be). Sure you put the effort into logging in for 1000 days straight. But what does that really mean? That you're a veteran? That you're loyal or supportive? It could mean all of that, it could mean none of that. I show loyalty to DE with my wallet, not my playtime. (Not just DE either, other game companies as well). Even if I'm not playing actively, but I have cash to spare and I see something really cool (lets use Nidus Deluxe for an example) I will log in and buy plat, and then buy the bundle, then log out. And probably not even play or use the skin for the next 3 months. That can be debatable more loyal or supportive than someone who clicked play 1000 times in a row, daily, to get himself a reward.

But I could be a bit bias towards that.

Edited August 22, 2018 by JaredWolf

[JaredWolf]

4 minutes ago, Mk_1 said:

Quite the wall of text ya got there.

LOL. Once I get a thought, it just keeps going until I forget what I was writing about. Most my posts on forums are like this.

[Errodin]

2 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Try doing it for close to 1000 days, every day without fail.... it might sound easy but it's not as easy as people try to make out

Well it is a difficult thing but it's also not "consecutive" days either now is it?

Touching on what OP was suggesting ... i feel platinum discounts should still be randomized, while i feel strongly that the mastery system doesn't offer enough to those who have most of the games content, i don't think that "veteran" players should be given a free ticket when they already have everything, I'm a "veteran" player and the only thing of real value at this point would be the kuva and those login weapons ... on that note i also don't believe new players should be handed everything. Theres been a lot of flak targeted at warframe for years about it being a grindfest, and some exclusive content (vandals) have been rotated into that grind, and much like most of things it can be simply bought. I'd add more but it's be as lengthy as your post hehe.

[JaredWolf]

7 minutes ago, Errodin said:

Well it is a difficult thing but it's also not "consecutive" days either now is it?

Touching on what OP was suggesting ... i feel platinum discounts should still be randomized, while i feel strongly that the mastery system doesn't offer enough to those who have most of the games content, i don't think that "veteran" players should be given a free ticket when they already have everything, I'm a "veteran" player and the only thing of real value at this point would be the kuva and those login weapons ... on that note i also don't believe new players should be handed everything. Theres been a lot of flak targeted at warframe for years about it being a grindfest, and some exclusive content (vandals) have been rotated into that grind, and much like most of things it can be simply bought. I'd add more but it's be as lengthy as your post hehe.

Is that a challenge? Shall I write even longer post? 😛
Jokes aside, I wasn't really sold on the static plat % off idea to be honest. But I was thinking it was more of a once in a blue moon type reward. Maybe even more rare than it is now. Which might end up being worse than what we have now.

Log in rewards shouldn't be incentive to play the game (that is what the actual game is for) it should simply be incentive to log in, and catch up on days you missed.

But content (drought) is a whole other issue at hand, which would need another lengthy post.

Edit: Oh, and in terms of quantity, I'm not saying like thousands of them. smaller, more simple quantities that will stay balanced. These rewards shouldn't be "OH nice I got X now I don't need to farm that anymore for the next month." but more like "Sweet that finished off the X I needed to build Y." type reward.

Edited August 22, 2018 by JaredWolf

[Atsia]

Need to get rid of megathread and PSA tags OP

[JaredWolf]

Just now, Atsia said:

Need to get rid of megathread and PSA tags OP

Oh I might have missclicked PSA. But doesn't megathread mean all platforms?

[Errodin]

Nothing should ever be incentive to play the game, but from personal experience ... i "want" those weapons so i make sure to login everyday. Other rewards are pale as fog in terms of "rewarding" ... yay 80 endo here ... 10k credits there, woohoo 1 chunk of tellurium and then the random plat discount (more plat for my collection of rivens if i happen to want something at the time) ... i usually let those go to waste now if they aren't 50 or 75. Nothing really makes my day.

To newer players those rewards might be useful at most, maybe a freebie orokin catalyst or an orokin cell ... one less to farm right? but never in "impactful" quantities because all your really doing is logging in.

and thats why some call fashion frame endgame.

Edited August 22, 2018 by Errodin

[seprent]

1 minute ago, JaredWolf said:

Oh I might have missclicked PSA. But doesn't megathread mean all platforms?

no mega thread is DE's feedback threads if i recall correctly 

[Atsia]

2 minutes ago, JaredWolf said:

Oh I might have missclicked PSA. But doesn't megathread mean all platforms?

No, Megathread is generally for Dev use only, like on the threads for Devstreams or Frame feedback threads

 

[JaredWolf]

1 minute ago, seprent said:

no mega thread is DE's feedback threads if i recall correctly 

Oh, that's weird how I can pick it if its for DE. But now I know. Thank you.

[Atsia]

1 minute ago, JaredWolf said:

Oh, that's weird how I can pick it if its for DE. But now I know. Thank you.

Yeah, it's weird how we can still pick it. Not sure why it can't be locked

[JaredWolf]

2 minutes ago, Atsia said:

No, Megathread is generally for Dev use only, like on the threads for Devstreams or Frame feedback threads

 

Just now, Atsia said:

Yeah, it's weird how we can still pick it. Not sure why it can't be locked

Oh okay. Then I was way off. So what does including them mean then im pretending to be DE? LOL. Or would it alter the search results?

 

4 minutes ago, Errodin said:

Nothing should ever be incentive to play the game, but from personal experience ... i "want" those weapons so i make sure to login everyday. Other rewards are pale as fog in terms of "rewarding" ... yay 80 endo here ... 10k credits there, woohoo 1 chunk of tellurium and then the random plat discount (more plat for my collection of rivens if i happen to want something at the time) ... i usually let those go to waste now if they aren't 50 or 75. Nothing really makes my day.

To newer players those rewards might be useful at most, maybe a freebie orokin catalyst or an orokin cell ... one less to farm right? but never in "impactful" quantities because all your really doing is logging in.

and thats why some call fashion frame endgame.

True, aside from enjoying the game. And from my personal experience. I'm spamming ESC and LMB to get the log in screen to go away the moment it comes up. Because I don't even care what I got, I just want to load in and play. Especially because I know it'll be something worthless to me. Like a single resource I have over thousands of, or a insignificant amount of platinum.

I also tend to let the plat discounts expire unless its 75%. Sometimes I'll use 50% if I need something. Or am too lazy to farm forma, or plat for forma.

That is why I thought a staggered reward table, that changes as you progress, would be a better option. And one that doesn't "force" you to put out "effort" to get some weapon or mod.

[Atsia]

4 minutes ago, JaredWolf said:

Oh okay. Then I was way off. So what does including them mean then im pretending to be DE? LOL. Or would it alter the search results?

I think it's grounds for thread lock/removal? Not sure

[JaredWolf]

1 minute ago, Atsia said:

I think it's grounds for thread lock/removal? Not sure

Oi, that might be why no one commented on my last post LOL. And here I thought it was because it was too long.

[Omega-Shadowblade]

16 minutes ago, Atsia said:

Yeah, it's weird how we can still pick it. Not sure why it can't be locked

Its a bug that was in the forum when they had someone redesign the site. The ironic thing is they don't really have access to the permissions in order to remove it for general people. At least that's if I'm getting my facts correct from what I recall. There was a post about it by a dev when people noticed.

Edited August 22, 2018 by Omega-Shadowblade

[yarl5000]

Even though fashion frame is end game I would rather it be changed so login rewards were split into two grouping.

 

Group 1: Cosmetic items only

Group 2: Weapons, Mods, Forma/Potatos/etc.

 

Group 1 would be just based on total days logged in, would let you show off just how long you have been logging in but no impact on game apart from fashion

Group 2: Set to a 30 day cycle and on day 30 you get to pick an item, but you can't pick like two weapons in a row [so you could do Zenistar > Prime Vigor > Azima] but with items locked behind mastery/quests

Edited August 22, 2018 by yarl5000

[JaredWolf]

2 minutes ago, yarl5000 said:

Even though fashion frame is end game I would rather it be changed so login rewards were split into two grouping.

 

Group 1: Cosmetic items only

Group 2: Weapons, Mods, Forma/Rivens/etc.

Why is that? And what would the 2 grouping be accomplishing?

[yarl5000]

1 minute ago, JaredWolf said:

Why is that? And what would the 2 grouping be accomplishing?

Sorry hit enter by mistake updated my post with actual idea

[JaredWolf]

1 minute ago, yarl5000 said:

Sorry hit enter by mistake updated my post with actual idea

So essentially, add time gated prestige from log ins, remove all resources, and keep the milestone system but every 30 days instead?