Elite Onslaught is Pointless Boredom Because of Saryn

[Buttaface]

19 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

I'm disappointed that you're advocating to nerf "Abusive, mindless map clear AOE spam" but refuse to acknowledge that WoF is exactly that, except you don't have to spam it just click it once. Yet you accuse me of lacking knowledge. Wonder who's the troll here?

I don't know about you but unlike Saryn, Ember doesn't need to pop spores or wait till the damage is scaled up. Saryn has more range and can strip armor i give you that but that's it.

Ember, other than the accelerant spam build I've always used on her, falls of drastically, even on infested, as a matter of fact and not opinion. Moreover, WOF currently functions -exactly- as all AOE should in the game, diminishing returns. In WOF case, it's range reduction. But I think you already know these things and are being obtuse.

[Buttaface]

48 minutes ago, f3llyn said:

In any other game mode than ESO Saryn is hardly as potent.

Again, a repeated falsehood that then grounds a bad follow-up argument. The above, as a matter of fact and not opinion, is not the case. Saryn is now overplayed generally throughout the game because the frame is OP and was overbuffed. It's not just ESO, and admittedly not just Saryn. Mesa, Equinox and Volt need nerfing down for a start, then other radial AOE powers.

[Sahansral]

vor 55 Minuten schrieb f3llyn:

Yes but when a frame is only considered "op" in a very niche case then that frame doesn't need to be nerfed. The other frames need to be better in that niche.

In any other game mode than ESO Saryn is hardly as potent. So this isn't an issue with Saryn, it's an issue with either the game mode itself or other frames.

Saryn is OP in every stationary mission type. 

Like Banshee, Ash, Mesa, Excalibur just to name a few before their adjustments. Saryn is even worse then those frames ever were.

No other frame ever destroyed armor, halfed enemy life, required no LOS and had scaling damage on top of that ever.

 

 

Edited September 9, 2018 by Sahansral

[IceColdHawk]

10 hours ago, schilds said:

I mean, seriously. If your claim is (as yours and IceColdHawk's claim was) that the only thing that changed, before people starting asking for Saryn nerfs, was that ESO was introduced, then it's not hard to demonstrate that you are just wrong

Eh, excuse me? I never said that? Please don't twist my words. I've been clearly saying what happened after saryns revisit. And that was people being in arms until they found their niche superior situation out and that's being ESO. Mass-focus farm and fast leveling. Outside of ESO though, other frames like Mesa, Volt or Equinox can easily outkill her. And last time i checked, Saryn wasn't the go to in hydron. Still super good but not the best. And is it a problem that a frame is the best in a certain game mode? Why? I'm arguing because people have been saying they're unable to have fun or get kills whenever a Saryn is there and this is complete nonsense and even you could prove it. Furthermore i have said way more than just "People found Saryn useless but then ESO happened" so you might wanna re-read on that.

Anyway, thanks for the video evidence i guess? Expected a video to prove Spores OPness but instead, I can see an MR25 player who knows how to get around, has finished their zenurik stuff, using a well-rounded build and is trying way too hard to get as many kills as possible seeing as how you void dash from one end to another and spraying with the Ignis around just to keep the Spore decay as low as possible. It's almost as if the matchmaking could need some work to prevent advanced players cleaning the floor for fresher players. I mean, i was never arguing that Saryn wasn't bad in ESO. All i was saying that there's more than just this game mode and i don't see the problem that one frame does exactly the thing, it was designed for. Also just saying, you could've played anything other than Saryn and still ended up with the most kills the way you were seeking for blood. Perhaps not as much as with Saryn but still.

So to get this straight, the argument has changed from "I get no kills" to "It deals too much damage" right? If that's the case then i don't even know what to say other than there's so many things in Warframe (not even abilities exclusively) that arguably deal way too much damage. More than Saryn is even capable of. And warframe simply isn't the game to have everything be equally viable everywhere. Besides, if we were to nerf Spore's damage now, what do you think would that do to Saryn should we ever get our desired endgame content? If i were to play say, a defense or Survival over Level 100, my Spores would require way more time in order to be dangerous to enemies. And due to how waves or rounds (interception) work, the decay is inevitable which would ultimately hinder Spore from being deadly. And now that i've said it, i repeat again. Saryn is exceptionally good in ESO but not everywhere. Because like i said, every end of the wave lets your Spores decay wheresas other Frames have a steady DPS amount that won't fall off.

36 minutes ago, Buttaface said:

Ember, other than the accelerant spam build I've always used on her, falls of drastically, even on infested, as a matter of fact and not opinion. Moreover, WOF currently functions -exactly- as all AOE should in the game, diminishing returns. In WOF case, it's range reduction. But I think you already know these things and are being obtuse.

I smell some kind of bias in here. Anyway to be fair with you, I would be ignorant to compare WoF to Saryn in ESO. It simply doesn't work due to fixed fire damage and the shorter range. But what i'm saying is, all you have to do is to press one button and walk through the map. It might not work as effectively against lvl 50+ enemies anymore but it surely does for your average starchart content. DE was trying to get rid of this "lazy gameplay behaviour" but all they've done was to make this ability worse. Instead of fixing the actual problem.

But no, i'd be silly to expect more Ember nerfs or even any Ember nerf at all ;). I'd greatly welcome a wholesome rework made by [DE]Pablo though!

30 minutes ago, Sahansral said:

No other frame ever destroyed armor, halfed enemy life, required no LOS and had scaling damage on top of that ever.

And no other frame ever got immune to damage and stunned enemies attacking him, could transform enemies into allies, deal scaling damage based on enemy hp and shields + ignoring armor + healing yourself and had a press 4 and forget ability on top of that ever.

Time to nerf Revenant? Or do we acknowledge that every frame is supposed to have their own kind of playstyle and use instead of everything being equal and the same?

Edited September 9, 2018 by IceColdHawk

[MickThejaguar]

Is this flame war still going on? 

[(PSN)aiptekfanboy]

7 hours ago, Buttaface said:

Again, a repeated falsehood that then grounds a bad follow-up argument. The above, as a matter of fact and not opinion, is not the case. Saryn is now overplayed generally throughout the game because the frame is OP and was overbuffed. It's not just ESO, and admittedly not just Saryn. Mesa, Equinox and Volt need nerfing down for a start, then other radial AOE powers.

Lol my mag pull works better just did a five waves sechura run saryn then with same squad with mag pull and got better results 

Hmm now i am going to recruit 3 saryn versus my mag pull and stay tunned.._.

Edited September 9, 2018 by (PS4)aiptekfanboy

[felixsylvaris]

I like how mods tied up all valuable Saryn feedback into one topic. Nice and tidy.

Saryn has a very nice kit, strong theme of status effect and toxicy. And how abillities work is good idea, but numbers are always up to discussion. She is very good in ESO, or "grineer" long survivals. Right now there is not much to do. But fortuna may prefer frames with more frontloaded damage. She is DPS frame which helps in team composition when you already have healer, support, buffer, cc.

There is a problem with Spores max damage with max damage 100k, which is a bit more than any similar abillity, like Banshee quake Hydroid Barrage or Oberon Hallowed Ground (but this one could be buffed).

Spores are also clunky, since need time to reach max damage, need spreading to have all 3 stacks, and daamge could go up and down really fast.

Nevertheless spores max damage should be more like 200 corrosive * abillity power. Since that is value other frames perform + bonus for clunkiness.

On the other hand there could be slower decay (no 20% hit) and toxic lash could hit harder.

Maybe Corpus Shields and Infested Health should be buffed (doubled). Since right now Grineer and their armour all signifanct stronger enemy. Or slow down grineer armour scaling.

However wait with changes for Fortuna data to see if Saryn is still a thing.

Edited September 10, 2018 by felixsylvaris

[(PSN)aiptekfanboy]

12 hours ago, Sahansral said:

Saryn is OP in every stationary mission type. 

Like Banshee, Ash, Mesa, Excalibur just to name a few before their adjustments. Saryn is even worse then those frames ever were.

No other frame ever destroyed armor, halfed enemy life, required no LOS and had scaling damage on top of that ever.

 

 

Please .

Old mirage prism not required los and thus all interception defenses and especially lor raids were easy.

It was easy to go to 200 waves long duration interception farming with 1 mirage prism blind every round while 3 squad members did bathroom breaks etc at regular intervals then the second mirage does prism blind while 3 squad members did relaxing only killing at end of round.

Saryns will never be that op.

Or Old mirage prism blind plus old mesa plus mag pull for op farming etc.

 

[Soketsu]

even after nerfing sarynn then mesa + equinox there will be another complains of the same kind, why staying on that way ?

Edited September 10, 2018 by Soketsu

[Sahansral]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Soketsu:

even after nerfing sarynn then mesa + equinox there will be another complains of the same kind, why staying on that way ?

Hmm, maybe to give single target damage a reason to exist? Besides being mastery fodder?

Shocking, I know 😮

Edited September 10, 2018 by Sahansral

[f3llyn]

On 2018-09-09 at 8:45 AM, Buttaface said:

Again, a repeated falsehood that then grounds a bad follow-up argument. The above, as a matter of fact and not opinion, is not the case. Saryn is now overplayed generally throughout the game because the frame is OP and was overbuffed. It's not just ESO, and admittedly not just Saryn. Mesa, Equinox and Volt need nerfing down for a start, then other radial AOE powers.

How do you know Saryn is "overplayed generally throughout the game"? I rarely ever see Saryn's in my day to day playing.

You say I've made a bad follow up argument then back up your argument with anecdotal evidence (at best)?

And if there is actually a legit source for this information then I'd like to see it.

Edited September 10, 2018 by f3llyn

[IceColdHawk]

50 minutes ago, Sahansral said:

Hmm, maybe to give single target damage a reason to exist? Besides being mastery fodder?

If you want single target stuff to be viable and good, you gotta rework the game to introduce more "stronger" enemies and make it not a horde shooter anymore. So you're fighting less but stronger and more dangerous enemies. Nerfing AoE would just end up in pure tedium. AoE is so popular because the game is designed around that.

[f3llyn]

3 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

If you want single target stuff to be viable and good, you gotta rework the game to introduce more "stronger" enemies and make it not a horde shooter anymore. So you're fighting less but stronger and more dangerous enemies. Nerfing AoE would just end up in pure tedium. AoE is so popular because the game is designed around that.

Technically speaking they wouldn't have to rework the game they'd just have to add a new game mode that catered to it.

Call me crazy but Eidolon hunts and the like already kind of give single target a reason to exist besides being mastery fodder. And who knows what all is coming specifically in their next big update.

Edited September 10, 2018 by f3llyn

[Soketsu]

il y a 51 minutes, Sahansral a dit :

Hmm, maybe to give single target damage a reason to exist? Besides being mastery fodder?

Shocking, I know 😮

We may use guns and melee for this, is this shocking ? Joke aside, do you want to continue this with flame or construtive style ?

Even if right now DE nerf evey damage AoE frame and NEVER EVER reintroduce something able to clean trash foes, I and many other players will still have other ways to clean the map and complete without many efforts, as long as the ennemy is way weaker than us. As long as forma & reactor/catalyst orokin are a thing. It will just be slower to do so.

The things I don't know its wich build will be popular if sarynn, equinox, mesa and volt are nerfed like you want. And then this kind of debate will keep going.

[felixsylvaris]

If someone havent noticed Warframe is not call of duty clone, but killing swarms of enemies is part of whole premise. The whole power fantasy is part of game. You may clear the room with one button, doesnt matter the enemies will keep comming.

What could happen is that some mission types could have boss invasion. Could be even planet bosses. Stuff like Stalker breaks the monotonny of mawing hordes of weaklings. Especially in mission types like survival, excavetion at some point there could drop the big bad boss to fight or run away from .

[Sahansral]

Saryn's Spores + Miasma are madness in its current implementation. Too strong scaling damage, no LOS required, way too much range and  circumventing armor scaling.

In no way is Saryn's design in harmony with the changes to other frames with AOE abilities in the last years.

Maybe there''s been a paradigm shift within DE concerning AOE. But I can't recall a statement in the latest devstreams that could confirm this.

The other possibility is that DE just overbuffed Saryn.

All I say is, that if you continue to ler her go rampant on stationary missions the viable game choices (single damage abilities, weapons, combos/interaction between, all things needing to be set up) is greatly reduced and Warframe looses much of it's width and replayability.

Regarding Elite Onslaught: The current meta is Saryn and building the rest of the group around her. And the community embraces willingly another game mode that more or less enforces a certain group setup. Because it's efficient *thumpsup*

Edited September 11, 2018 by Sahansral

[Cibyllae]

1 hour ago, Sahansral said:

The other possibility is that DE just overbuffed Saryn

She was stronger before the 3.0 rework, but the fact that she was stronger before her rework doesn't change any of what you said, whether I disagree or agree with it. If anything the complaint that she was "over buffed", the argument that, "de changed her, I see Saryn much much more, therefore she the change over buffed her," is incorrect. They lowered her strength, which is not as strong but is more easily abused, and made it less complicated to understand how to deal damage with her. It's easy to abuse corrosive+viral+infiniteDmg+infiniteDuration.

I don't want to whell ackthually all over this post, I do want to point out that Saryn is much easier to understand, which makes her easier to play, which inceases how many people play her. Yes she is strong now, but she was stronger before and people were not using her. What she does in eso now she would have done without the 3.0 revisit, while retaining that barrier of how to deal damage with her, meaning less people would be able to abuse it. People were flocking to Equinox before her changes. So I don't think her use would have gone up, I'm sure it would have increased, but I firmly believe equinox and volt would have been the meta had Saryn not been made easier to understand, which in turn made her easier to play.

If anything people should be calling for AoE frames to be more complex to use so that, at the very least, you can't just slap any f u c k i n g mod you want on an AoE frame and wipe rooms. They need to start raising the skill floor for understanding how AoE frames work. If not everyone can do it straight out of the gates, if there is some type of barrier stopping people from immediately abusing something, people often don't mind abusable things, because everyone isn't abusing it. But that means not everyone is going to want to put in the time to be able to abuse it. And that's the paradox, because then people complain that the frame is to complicated to use instead of putting in the time to learn how to use it. And then you make it easier to be able to abuse that frame's strengths, and then people complain that a frame is being abused. Which then gets you stuck in this buff/nerf hell because now the frame is easy to abuse, and that probably won't ever change, what's going to change is the simple strength level of the frame. And it'll fluctuate up and down, but at the end of the day it's going to find a sweat spot. Easy to use, not too much damage, but not outclassed. And then the frame is boring. I get that WF is a casual community and that's okay, but "casual" is not synonymous with "no challenge". Using a warframe needs to be more of a challenge somewhere. In mechanics, in modding, in understanding, a lot of times playing warframe feels like flying a plane on auto pilot. But if that's really what the majority of players want, auto pilot, that's where the game is gonna go. I ain't mad or sad about it, sometimes it seems like this game doesn't know what it wants to be. And in either trying to appeal to as many people as possible, or trying many different things, Warframe's identity gets pulled in too many different directions all at once. I ain't mad or sad about that, I think it's just unfortunate.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 20 Minuten schrieb Cibyllae:

I ain't mad or sad about it, sometimes it seems like this game doesn't know what it wants to be.

Truer words...

Anyway the discrepancy is more than glaring, today's Interception Sortie: Saryn 75% just for managing a single spot like everyone else. I understand they're busy getting Venus together atm, my guess is she'll be on the dissection table once that and the next frame are finished. While the rework was great in terms of mechanics the numbers are just off, shouldn't be rocket science to fix. And hopefully Volt and Equinox are next. The former should just get his old Discharge back with more consistent CC (which was the main complaint from Volt players before) and the latter had it coming anyway since long ago.

[Buttaface]

On ‎10‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 4:50 PM, f3llyn said:

How do you know Saryn is "overplayed generally throughout the game"? I rarely ever see Saryn's in my day to day playing.

You say I've made a bad follow up argument then back up your argument with anecdotal evidence (at best)?

And if there is actually a legit source for this information then I'd like to see it.

The existence of this thread and maybe half a dozen like it (maybe more) ground my argument. You made the claim that in any other game mode Saryn is hardly as potent. That's simply counter to fact. Saryn was overbuffed, and they should undo it.

Spare the "anecdote" retort, gamer forums by their nature are mostly anecdotal, and the post of yours I responded to contained no evidence of any kind, anecdotal or otherwise.

[LascarCapable]

Hey there.

Just a friendly reminder : try to remain as constructive and as polite as possible, especially in that kind of debate. I've seen legit concerns in both sides of the argument, so let's not turn the debate into an absolute pain with ad hominem attacks or assumptions, please.

I cleaned a few unconstructive post. I would like to thank the users who remained constructive so far.

[ZirkonX]

Im not gonna lie, idc how another warframe do in Co-OP as long as i can see enemies and fight them..but with saryn lvl 80+ enemies just get evaporated like nothing, i know people love doing i my self love doing that. but if ur in another warframe and seeing this its really annoying because you go to face those high level enemies to test your weps and builds (i know u can do stuff solo, but its a huge preference to play on a team) im glad saryn got a buff and im glad shes in a great place but i hope everyone in the team can enjoy while shes in the team.

if ESO was all about farming its not that annoying but for some people  it really isn,t. its the only content  in game after sorties/kuva flood where u face 80+  enemies directly so some people who like to check builds love going there, i mostly go there solo now.  

I can't blame or even be mad at anyone whose using her to clear rooms like nothing because ESO is built on that stupidly fast depleting efficiency bar..

[CosmicHermitCrab]

On 2018-09-12 at 7:21 AM, ZirkonX said:

I can't blame or even be mad at anyone whose using her to clear rooms like nothing because ESO is built on that stupidly fast depleting efficiency bar..

This...this is the problem...nerf this instead. Otherwise, only tanky frames (with those ridiculous whip/zaw riven builds) will be optimal in ESO or a premade squad with day-equinox with buff-rhino and other buffers. The problem is ESO and they made saryn still good for ESO, but that's the problem, DE only focused on making saryn good for ESO while no other frame can even compete with her in any type of mission in terms of dps. If DE nerfs saryn, they should also nerf ESO, imo. I don't even do ESO anymore because it's both a pain and not even worth the rewards for the painfulness. So if they nerf saryn, it doesn't hurt me, but hurts new veterans and even newcomers even more because they will have a harder time completing and wasting time in ESO.

DE already balanced the game (or tried) in normal missions without requiring ability blocks from Cephalon Simaris. I still don't get why Cephalon Simaris needs to do that anyways, especially with that "fast depleting efficiency bar" in ESO. The ESO is basically like survival without life support and with smaller maps, why do we need to have strict limitations on the Warframe's abilities during the endless fight when Warframe's abilities are a big part of the game already, especially compared to other first-person shooter games. Why not limit how many times I can shoot as well? Your answer against my question is the same answer I have against blocking Warframe abilities. Hell, we still use energy to cast the abilities, anyways.

The current aftermath results of ESO is too dependent on the player's weapons, imo, unless you have the...you know...Saryn.

I think DE was trying to make ESO harder by limiting how many times we can periodically cast abilities; however, there are many other ways of making ESO harder without debuffing the players. It's the same problem with index, rhino is the best carrier in index because of how the debuffs work in index and his iron skin counters the debuffs very well. Same deal with Saryn in comparison to ESO, her 1 never gets canceled from Cephalon Simaris if you use it wisely; Saryns counters the debuffs from the ESO better than any other DPS frame, mainly because her 1 is one of the best DPS first-abilities in the game (especially since you don't need to spam it often). Instead of debuffing the players, buff the enemies, introduce more enemies, introduce unique ESO enemies...it can go along with the Khora lore as well.

Merely changing the damage numbers of Saryn won't be enough to nerf her as well, a rework is probably required, otherwise you can just use buff-frame roles along with the nerfed saryn to do ESO still...the problem is the design of ESO and Saryn altogether. This is why we have mixed views of some players wanting to nerf/leave alone Saryn; the ones that want Saryn nerfed are tired of her outperforming other Warframes in terms of dps and being almost "most optimal" for random public groups in ESO, the ones that want Saryn to be left alone are afraid ESO will be harder to do without Saryn since she's almost "mandatory" for random public groups in ESO.

Took a while for me to realize this, hope this helps...

Edited September 13, 2018 by CrystalSpark

[(XBOX)Arxcervus]

I don't see how this an irritating thing to be honest. Free loot, free affinity, no work put into it as long as you are standing next to Saryn till the wave ends. I love it when I jump into Hydron and have a Saryn there ready to start poppin' off. Jumps my mastery rank up quick; not gonna lie, mastery rank is SO SLOW. Been playing Warframe since it came out on Xbox with the occasional quitting for awhile due to repetitiveness of the weapon and Warframe's grind and how long it took for a single one of those. I used to be a low mastery rank until I started catching up last year or so due to the fire that I initially had in Warframe and then recently also discovering Hydron😈. It sucks when you are running around as a low MR and there are MR people higher due to buying affinity boosts. Makes you feel like a noob even though you have more hours put into the game. But the sight of Saryn is a sight for sore eyes. Who wants to spend hours killing, playing missions, and killing some more for the course of a week just to level a set of weapons without using boosts like a poor man? Not me. If I can get that done in 30 minutes or an hour without buying boosts, then that is awesome. Gives you another reason to play the game. Been running through weapons and frames left and right, starting to run out of the resources that I had stacked up.

[miomima]

6 часов назад, (XB1)ll Ascendant ll сказал:

I don't see how this an irritating thing to be honest. Free loot, free affinity, no work put into it as long as you are standing next to Saryn till the wave ends. I love it when I jump into Hydron and have a Saryn there ready to start poppin' off. Jumps my mastery rank up quick; not gonna lie, mastery rank is SO SLOW. Been playing Warframe since it came out on Xbox with the occasional quitting for awhile due to repetitiveness of the weapon and Warframe's grind and how long it took for a single one of those. I used to be a low mastery rank until I started catching up last year or so due to the fire that I initially had in Warframe and then recently also discovering Hydron😈. It sucks when you are running around as a low MR and there are MR people higher due to buying affinity boosts. Makes you feel like a noob even though you have more hours put into the game. But the sight of Saryn is a sight for sore eyes. Who wants to spend hours killing, playing missions, and killing some more for the course of a week just to level a set of weapons without using boosts like a poor man? Not me. If I can get that done in 30 minutes or an hour without buying boosts, then that is awesome. Gives you another reason to play the game. Been running through weapons and frames left and right, starting to run out of the resources that I had stacked up.

there is equinox and adaro, 5 mins from 0 to 30 on any weapon.

[felixsylvaris]

Il y a 11 heures, moostar95 a dit :

Eso isn't bad because of saryn. its bad because spawn rate is awful. 

Confused.

Are you saying that rate of spawn is too slow. Yiik. They seems to be preatty fast. \

Is it too fast? Isnt it the point of mode? It is a very derp mission type with specific setup.

The thing is that you dont need to run it ever for anything. Eidelons are important since you may want amps. Normal Onslaught is important since you may want khora. But ESO is a derp mode by design. You dont need to max focus in 3 months, you may level it passivly, and have it done somewhre in the future.