Analysis: The heavy inflation of rivens due to platinum economy and lack of disposition monitoring - leading to unsustainable prices and possible countermeasures

[SneakyErvin]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)nating51 said:

Here we completely disagree. I see that *exactly* in the opposite way: I see riven prices grow up and things "in high supply" getting lower and and lower in price. To me, the flat increase/decrease proportion of prices you underline in your post simply does not occour. A matter of different perception, maybe...

What exact prices have you seen drop then, because I havent seen any except in direct connection to development choices that have led to changes in availablity/strength for/of items aswell as lowered prices on thing is high supply, like prime sets. Primed mods, prime junk, rare mods, syndicate mods, syndicate weapons, syndicate tribute prime parts etc. all go for the same as they did before because the demand is still high on all of them.

Inflation isnt exactly something you agree or disagree with, it simply works one way and that is more or less it. When it is an actual inflation the value of the currency also drops, so this would imply that in WF we'd have very expensive things all over because each single platinum is worth less. That isnt the case. Instead we see things getting cheaper due to natural supply and demand of a free market.

[Hypernaut1]

5 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

What exact prices have you seen drop then, because I havent seen any except in direct connection to development choices that have led to changes in availablity/strength for/of items aswell as lowered prices on thing is high supply, like prime sets. Primed mods, prime junk, rare mods, syndicate mods, syndicate weapons, syndicate tribute prime parts etc. all go for the same as they did before because the demand is still high on all of them.

Inflation isnt exactly something you agree or disagree with, it simply works one way and that is more or less it. When it is an actual inflation the value of the currency also drops, so this would imply that in WF we'd have very expensive things all over because each single platinum is worth less. That isnt the case. Instead we see things getting cheaper due to natural supply and demand of a free market.

Vaulted primes have dropped in price, but that might be because unvaulting had become more reliable. There was a time when people felt they wouldn't ever see a prime again. Syndicate weapons also dropped in price, but then again they are old weapons

[SneakyErvin]

3 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Vaulted primes have dropped in price, but that might be because unvaulting had become more reliable. There was a time when people felt they wouldn't ever see a prime again. Syndicate weapons also dropped in price, but then again they are old weapons

Yeah unvaultings lead to that. You can also see the opposite with the previous Volt Prime Baro-unvaulting. Some people moaned about how their Volt Prime sets they sat on dropped in value when in reality they nearly doubled during that weekend.

Simple things that show that supply and demand rules the market.

And yeah, syndicate weapons do drop, but they will still keep a steady price due to the cost of them. No one will sell a syndicate weapon for less than 40p mostly since it costs the same as 4-5 syndicate mods that never go for less than 10p.

[(PSN)nating51]

27 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

What exact prices have you seen drop then, because I havent seen any except in direct connection to development choices that have led to changes in availablity/strength for/of items aswell as lowered prices on thing is high supply, like prime sets. Primed mods, prime junk, rare mods, syndicate mods, syndicate weapons, syndicate tribute prime parts etc. all go for the same as they did before because the demand is still high on all of them.

Inflation isnt exactly something you agree or disagree with, it simply works one way and that is more or less it. When it is an actual inflation the value of the currency also drops, so this would imply that in WF we'd have very expensive things all over because each single platinum is worth less. That isnt the case. Instead we see things getting cheaper due to natural supply and demand of a free market.

Seriously? If you play wf for more than a year and a half, it's pretty impossible to me not to get how market prices has changed..

Just for saying, It's pretty fun to talk about "free" market about wf. If we'd have the market system we have in wf (no regulations, no policies, no restriction) our real world would probably be a really ugly place to live (I hate Ayn Rand kind of thinking...), but this is not the place to go on this argument and I'd have to take too much time to explain why. So, go on...

Btw, let's clarify a concept. Inflation, in real life economy, is not flat nor linear for any goods (economy basics?) and prices does not increase in the same way for any goods and at the same curve. And...no...it does not work "one way" (lmao). There's a general tendency, but the specific inflation may be consistently different from a compartment to another. 

Edited September 27, 2018 by (PS4)nating51

[Buttaface]

7 hours ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

Riven handlers abusing players poor experience with Modding and Mechanics, spreading false rumors, that only with “Godly” Riven you can play WF. Nothing more nothing less.

Agreed, other than it's not any kind of abuse. 

@thread Have never heard anyone claiming or asking for "rivened up" gear in recruiting chat, maybe it happens, I've never seen it. Have never seen anyone in trade chat or elsewhere advertising as "must have." There's a reason for that, and that reason is that compared to frame powers, general skill at the game, and other ways of doing the content, the impact of rivens is trivial.

"Let's take the Trinity with the rivens and 5 Eidolon kills instead of the one with 100 kills" is an unheard of absurdity.

Back in the golden age of boxed PC games, I used to spend a couple hundred dollars a month playing 3-4 new releases each to the tune of $49.99-$59.99 each. Millions of average people did the same and later on console games, and in relation to the costs of other forms of entertainment, eating out or going to movies for a 50-100 hours a month, games have always been dirt cheap. People buying rivens in WF is no different than people buying cosmetics in their game of choice, with equal actual impact on the content of the game.

I can go in trade chat and advertise a riven for 100,000 plat. Means nothing. Neither means I am "scamming," nor that rivens are something in the game that they aren't. It is a grievous error to base any kind of "analysis" of prices in a game on what gamers post in a freaking chat engine or on a game-related site. Stupid even. When new content comes, no matter what the weapons are, the riven prices go up, Thousands of players with the wherewithal are currently willing to spend $$ on a gram riven atm that will cost 200 plat in a couple of months. Most of them will never even -use- the riven other than for quick melee.

"Hey Look! Some guy on the internet said X, so we must take that seriously and 'analyze' the resulting 'problems." Cow flop.

Rivens are vanity items for bored vets, completely and totally optional content, thoroughly unnecessary to do the content as a matter of fact and not opinion, and they are accomplishing their function quite well IMO.

Edited September 27, 2018 by Buttaface

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, (PS4)nating51 said:

Seriously? If you play wf for more than a year and a half, it's pretty impossible to me not to get how market prices has changed..

Just for saying, It's pretty fun to talk about "free" market about wf. If we'd have the market system we have in wf (no regulations, no policies, no restriction) our real world would probably be a really ugly place to live (I hate Ayn Rand kind of thinking...), but this is not the place to go on this argument and I'd have to take too much time to explain why. So, go on...

Btw, let's clarify a concept. Inflation, in real life economy, is not flat nor linear for any goods (economy basics?) and prices does not increase in the same way for any goods and at the same curve. And...no...it does not work "one way" (lmao). There's a general tendency, but the specific inflation may be consistently different from a compartment to another. 

The point is, what we have is not inflation, so people should stop calling it that. Inflation always means that the currency gets weakened and things cost more as a result. That is simply not what we have here. Prices here are staying roughly the same or decreasing, that is not inflation. It also shows that the riven market has little to no impact on the rest of the market.

And again I ask you, what exact items have dropped in price so much due to the riven market? You still havent answered that. As I said, prime sets are just decreasing in cost due to natural outcomes such as a lower demand. That is not something you can claim rivens are the cause of. We only ever really need one frame of each (except in rare cases where people want a multitude of builds), they are very easy to get so people will obtain them fairly quickly.

There are no other items that have dropped in value over the last year, except when DE changed how bounty rewards work in the plains and when maiming strike got passivly "nerfed" with the changes to how walls work for melee.

Inflation = price goes up as currency value decreased

Deflation = price goes down as currency value gets stronger.

We have neither here.

[(PSN)nating51]

30 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

The point is, what we have is not inflation, so people should stop calling it that. Inflation always means that the currency gets weakened and things cost more as a result. That is simply not what we have here. Prices here are staying roughly the same or decreasing, that is not inflation. It also shows that the riven market has little to no impact on the rest of the market.

And again I ask you, what exact items have dropped in price so much due to the riven market? You still havent answered that. As I said, prime sets are just decreasing in cost due to natural outcomes such as a lower demand. That is not something you can claim rivens are the cause of. We only ever really need one frame of each (except in rare cases where people want a multitude of builds), they are very easy to get so people will obtain them fairly quickly.

There are no other items that have dropped in value over the last year, except when DE changed how bounty rewards work in the plains and when maiming strike got passivly "nerfed" with the changes to how walls work for melee.

Inflation = price goes up as currency value decreased

Deflation = price goes down as currency value gets stronger.

We have neither here.

LOL

[SneakyErvin]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)nating51 said:

LOL

So you cant name a few simple items that have dropped in value due to the riven trade even though you claim it is so?

[(PSN)nating51]

6 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

So you cant name a few simple items that have dropped in value due to the riven trade even though you claim it is so?

Probably you haven't read my previous posts...So, have no more time to debate with you, I'm sorry. To negate the evidence (as you actually do) is not my cup of tea. Last words.

Edited September 27, 2018 by (PS4)nating51

[Neuerwinter]

40 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

The point is, what we have is not inflation, so people should stop calling it that. Inflation always means that the currency gets weakened and things cost more as a result. That is simply not what we have here. Prices here are staying roughly the same or decreasing, that is not inflation. It also shows that the riven market has little to no impact on the rest of the market.

And again I ask you, what exact items have dropped in price so much due to the riven market? You still havent answered that. As I said, prime sets are just decreasing in cost due to natural outcomes such as a lower demand. That is not something you can claim rivens are the cause of. We only ever really need one frame of each (except in rare cases where people want a multitude of builds), they are very easy to get so people will obtain them fairly quickly.

There are no other items that have dropped in value over the last year, except when DE changed how bounty rewards work in the plains and when maiming strike got passivly "nerfed" with the changes to how walls work for melee.

Inflation = price goes up as currency value decreased

Deflation = price goes down as currency value gets stronger.

We have neither here.

7 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

So you cant name a few simple items that have dropped in value due to the riven trade even though you claim it is so?

Title: inflation of rivens market

"HURR DURR that is not inflation don't you dare call that inflation REEEEEEEEEEE"

good lord the people you can find on this forum, do they need to be given some pills? does anyone have a pill?

[(PSN)KnowLedge]

On 2018-09-23 at 3:36 PM, LSG501 said:

While I'm not stupid enough to pay stupid money for a riven

Orrrr in reality you're too broke and this is your online justification to hate on those that have worked hard enough to buy a 2000p riven mod. I agree prices are stupid but no one in forcing anyone to pay. When that seller sits on that riven long enough and no one buys. It will come down. I bought Chroma Prime Access for the plat last night. Also some thanks go to people like you for giving me the motivation to spend some cash and feel you squirm...

 

OP: You sound green man. Smh

Edited September 27, 2018 by (PS4)KnowLedge

[Callback]

I think the solution would be better handled on the supply end.  Buff the riven rolling system to decrease the value of "god" rivens by making them easier to obtain, while possibly increasing the value of "junk" rivens by a bit.

 

Allowing an easier and more direct path to making your own god rivens would help stabilize the market.  Options like locking the number of lines, re-rolling only an individual line, and re-rolling only the RNG range of values without changing the stats would reduce the idea of obtaining a god riven from a lottery to a simple matter of farming enough kuva.  The worse the odds are the higher a lottery jackpot will grow.  God rivens are the jackpot and the platinum economy reflects this value.

 

Now of course adding that many new god rivens into the game will make them all the more mandatory, but that's ok too.  We can also buff the transmutation system a bit to help stabilize the floor.  15 vs 1k is actually fairly reasonable under the current system based on how many weapons are in the game.  That only supposes an average of 22 transmutations to get a meta weapon, even using same-type transmutations to limit the pool, which is not favorable for the transmutation.  We can help this through 2 methods.  1:  Add more granularity to the categories.  Allow the "same type" transmutations to work on different levels of categorization.  So you can transmute for a rifle riven, but you can also transmute for a bow riven, sniper riven, beam riven, launcher riven, etc.  This breaks it down into smaller pools and increases the value of any roll in the same pool as your preferred meta weapon.  I would also have transmutation give a bit more flexibility against the RNG.  Instead of just rolling 1 new riven and giving it to the player, roll 3 and let the player pick one.  It relaxes the RNG and makes it that much faster on average to filter down to what you really want.

 

 

Increasing availability in this way would rapidly deflate the market to a more stable level.

Edited September 27, 2018 by Callback

[SneakyErvin]

49 minutes ago, Neuerwinter said:

Title: inflation of rivens market

"HURR DURR that is not inflation don't you dare call that inflation REEEEEEEEEEE"

good lord the people you can find on this forum, do they need to be given some pills? does anyone have a pill?

But it isnt an inflation of the riven market either. It is just a bunch of entitled people crying because they cant afford it while also crying over a glimpse of the market without taking a better look at the actual sales made. It is an optional market with variable items, of course they will have an extreme difference in prices. We are also talking about peoples time and resources here when they wanna sell to you, not some static items you get and sell just like that.

Inflation would mean that it has actually introduced so much more plat in the market that the non-riven items would also sell at a far higher price. We only have one market and rivens are part of that because it uses the same exact currency. People throw around the word inflation because they dont understand it.

Is it inflation when a used Saab sells for $1k and a Ferrari sells for $100k?. No those are simply different cars i.e different items that doesnt introduce more pressed bills into the market.

There is no inflation in WF, just luxory items selling for higher prices without impacting the market as a whole.

Do I think the riven prices are sane? No not one bit. Do I think it needs to change? No not one bit. It is simply up to the players that decide to trade. It doesnt hurt anyone and it has no negative impact on the game.

Also, even though the thread is about the inflation of the riven market, the people I've discussed with have claimed it has a negative impact on the other part of the market, which they cant even show any proof of, because it simply isnt true. They cant name a single item that has gotten a reduced value due to rivens, but I've been able to present several that have gotten a reduced value due to accessibility/power changes done by DE.

[Floppinger]

vor 22 Stunden schrieb (PS4)Taishin_Ishu:

why does this matter at all?   It doesn't come auto-equipped with a riven, for one.  It's gotta hold it's own for those playing it without a riven 😛

Also, you can mod Dual Heat Swords properly and go well into Sorties...I've done it...without issue OR Riven...

So, what's the difference between bringing a shotgun or a cannon to a fight when your opponent is a cardboard cutout, relatively speaking, either way?  There is no difference.  In other words, people are acting like rivens are ruining the game, but they're only offering alternative play, nothing more.  They certainly aren't hurting anyone.

It matters because because DE hasn´t adjusted rivens in like 600 days. I won´t say anything if DE actually stays on top of riven dispositions. Our opinions may differ but I don´t consider meta weapons stomping even harder with riven power "alternative play".

vor 22 Stunden schrieb (PS4)Taishin_Ishu:

Apologies.  I meant @Yatazanami and their continued rants.

As for your intent for this, there really isn't anything DE can do.  Nerf one meta, another rises.  That's the -players- doing that, and there's little DE can do to counter that.  Same thing has happened with various frame tweaks.
.........
 

Agreed, there´ll always be a meta. However DE can try to keep the meta "fresh" by staying on top of riven dispositions. It´s not the "be all, end all" but it´s a contributing factor.

vor 22 Stunden schrieb Peter:

Gram Prime evidently came with the post rework 3.0 attributes, this is evident in his combo is capped at 2.0x , stop repeating what others say and use your head a little, we are close to rework 3.0, Gram Prime will not be the only one with these attributes.

3.0 attributes 🤩....The only thing Gram Prime evidently came with is a confirmed bug.

https://twitter.com/moitoi/status/1045394869924048896

Anything else you want me to use my head for? I gotta warn you though, I´m far to sensitive to use it for smashing things.

Edited September 27, 2018 by Floppinger

[(PSN)nating51]

2 hours ago, Neuerwinter said:

Title: inflation of rivens market

"HURR DURR that is not inflation don't you dare call that inflation REEEEEEEEEEE"

good lord the people you can find on this forum, do they need to be given some pills? does anyone have a pill?

Definitely agree. Some people needs a real life, a work, a woman/man. 😄

[LSG501]

1 hour ago, (PS4)KnowLedge said:

Orrrr in reality you're too broke and this is your online justification to hate on those that have worked hard enough to buy a 2000p riven mod. I agree prices are stupid but no one in forcing anyone to pay. When that seller sits on that riven long enough and no one buys. It will come down. I bought Chroma Prime Access for the plat last night. Also some thanks go to people like you for giving me the motivation to spend some cash and feel you squirm... 

 

OP: You sound green man. Smh

Looks at plat balance and thinks about buying a couple of overpriced rivens, then thinks again because I realise I'm not that stupid....especially when I already have a rubico riven...yep I'm squirming about not being stupid enough to pay the excessive prices...

Yeah I'm not daft enough to buy prime access either, I can easily afford it considering the job I do (3D Design), I just don't see it being worth the prices they charge... not that I haven't invested in the game, I just use my money (like my platinum) more wisely... In all honesty I'd rather invest the my spare cash into something more tangible like a watch or something.

 

I just find it funny how players are trying to 'justify' the high prices by trying to make out that people with common sense are broke or not being able to afford 2000p for a riven....

[(PSN)nating51]

4 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

I just find it funny how players are trying to 'justify' the high prices by trying to make out that people with common sense are broke or not being able to afford 2000p for a riven....

^

[Neuerwinter]

44 minutes ago, Floppinger said:

3.0 attributes 🤩....The only thing Gram Prime evidently came with is a confirmed bug.

https://twitter.com/moitoi/status/1045394869924048896

Anything else you want me to use my head for? I gotta warn you though, I´m far to sensitive to use it for smashing things.

[LupisV0lk]

6 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

I just find it funny how players are trying to 'justify' the high prices by trying to make out that people with common sense are broke or not being able to afford 2000p for a riven....

Because They're not using common sense.

I can't afford a 2K riven BUT even i can see just how badly all these hamfisted changes people come up with will be.

[(PSN)KnowLedge]

26 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Looks at plat balance and thinks about buying a couple of overpriced rivens, then thinks again because I realise I'm not that stupid....especially when I already have a rubico riven...yep I'm squirming about not being stupid enough to pay the excessive prices...

Yeah I'm not daft enough to buy prime access either, I can easily afford it considering the job I do (3D Design), I just don't see it being worth the prices they charge... not that I haven't invested in the game, I just use my money (like my platinum) more wisely... In all honesty I'd rather invest the my spare cash into something more tangible like a watch or something.

 

I just find it funny how players are trying to 'justify' the high prices by trying to make out that people with common sense are broke or not being able to afford 2000p for a riven....

Judge, jury, and wannabe executioner. Completely missed the point of my post while simultaneously proving my point about people like you. Thanks!

[LSG501]

37 minutes ago, (PS4)KnowLedge said:

Judge, jury, and wannabe executioner. Completely missed the point of my post while simultaneously proving my point about people like you. Thanks!

 

PMSL No I didn't miss your point, it was pretty obvious that it was nothing more than you trying to make out you're not 'broke' and trying to make yourself look superior to others but the bit below shows the type of person you are better than any response I can give.   Unfortunately for you I'm not broke, either financially or in game with it's virtual currencies so your attempt failed miserably.

 

2 hours ago, (PS4)KnowLedge said:

Also some thanks go to people like you for giving me the motivation to spend some cash and feel you squirm...

 

Edited September 27, 2018 by LSG501

[(PSN)nating51]

2 hours ago, Callback said:

I think the solution would be better handled on the supply end.  Buff the riven rolling system to decrease the value of "god" rivens by making them easier to obtain, while possibly increasing the value of "junk" rivens by a bit.

There's a good idea here, to me.

[O2D3nTe]

I'm at 450h according to Steam, MR16, ~110 days logged in. I'm not a new player, but I'm definitely not someone who's trading rivens around, or can afford to spend thousands of plat on rivens.

First of all, I'd like to have a minute of silence for I made a mistake: I unveiled a Rubico riven, didn't know it sell for so much unrolled, and rolled it a few times. I don't know what is the Kuva cost right now. I love the Rubico, but I'd sell a riven anyday if it's that expensive.

The situation OP describes is most likely true, I'll trust him on that but for Warframe as whole, it's not that big of a deal. The vast majority of players will not spend their plat on some expensive rivens. Casual players are most likely to buy frames directly, or slots, potatoes and so on. When I started trading, I was looking for some rare mods I was missing and some prime frames.

Yes, the -50/75% on plat adds more plat to the economy, but it's a mistake to believe the majority of players will spend it like veterans do. We don't have all the frames/weapons/mods, don't necessarily want to trade with others, so people will burn a significant amount of those plats in the shop directly. I did it in the past when I had far less and didn't know any better (I even bought a weapon once ...).

Also less experienced players tend to buy much more than they sell. Veterans know how to make plats, what to sell and how to farm it. When you have to farm your syndicates, focus, resources, credit, open a few fissures and so on, you don't have time to go out and farm stuff to sell. You first farm for what you need, and most of the time you don't even have time for that.

 

The riven market, while part of the whole Warframe economy, is kind of closed. It attracts a very specific kind of people (those who already have almost everything, and trade to make plats). What happens there doesn't have a great impact on the rest of the economy.

I don't think rivens specifically are the issue. The problem is, veterans are hording plat because they don't have any use for it, while also being the one who knows how to make profit out of the market. It would happen with anything really.

[Yatazanami]

glad this topic is alive and well , keep discussing guys so we can change the patch this game is heading into , also 

i'll post my idea of how to make the riven system better , stay tuned ! ^^

[SneakyErvin]

17 hours ago, LupisV0lk said:

Because They're not using common sense.

I can't afford a 2K riven BUT even i can see just how badly all these hamfisted changes people come up with will be.

And the more I read posts from those people the more I see it as them simply being disgruntled and jealous at the people that trade the rivens. The reason we see ideas like making it easier to reroll and so on, just so they can have the same for less effort.

I dont trade expensive rivens myself and would likely never buy the high priced ones either, but I do enjoy the reroll system as it is. The only thing I'd like to see are more options to gain Kuva.

Making it too easy to get the right rolls will just give us another system that is simply too quick "max out".