Official Necro Ability Discussion

[Shiniko]

Can't we just pull the resources out of the ground, like we're exhuming them?

[Scheifen]

I don't know if anyone will read this deep in the thread, but I didn't want to make a new topic when there's already one...

 

My final conclusions on Nekros: Very Unique abilities, fun to use, but feels like a pre-vauban frame, ie he is fun but not strong enough since DE raised the bar with Vauban and Nova.

 

Soul Punch: great ability, fun to use, strong enough; one thing, the projectile probably needs to be a little bit bigger. It seems to miss enemies right behind the target, if they are even slightly to the side... could just be my aim. If it is just me, leave it as is. It's a unique ability. 

 

Terrify: awesome skill, great for over-running situations, one caveat: WAY too slow to cast, not good enough in a panic, which seems to be what it's for. Would love to have the 'Totem' aspect back, and make it stationary, but I can understand not wanting to step on Vauban's toes... (even though it steps on Excal's Radial blind right now)

 

Desecrate: very controversial, final say: useful, but not enough right now. I've used it allot soloing, where you can customize your mods and weapons to leave bodies as long as you can, but it barely works in parties with all the despawning effects. Also when in parties, the energy cost can be very high for the returns, due to having to use it allot since bodies dissapear so often. in some cases energy cost is just high.

 

nerf range, reduce energy cost? super nerf range, buff drop rates? buff drop rates in general? I'm not sure what the answer is. Fixing this requires some creativity. my thought is that it work on bodies that already dissapeared, up to a few seconds. Not sure if that's possible, host-coding wise. If not, then more creative minds then mine are needed. If it gets too hard, seriously just make a new ability DE, it's probably easier, even if I'll miss it a little. (I caught myself hitting 3 on Frost and Ash, still trying to loot corpses) 

 

Shadows of the Dead: Great ability, horrible AI problems. AI needs fixing to not shoot at ceilings and walls. Since the animation is so long, its hard to use effectively. Either the shadows life-timer needs to start once the animation is complete or the animation needs to be way shorter.

 

Also, shadows should rush ahead towards the nearest pocket of enemies, if none are near where they spawn. This way you can use them preemptively before combat, where currently you either need to use them in a safe place during the fight, or use them away from it and risk some wandering off into uselessness. Or not getting your energy's worth, because you lose time as they have to get to the fight.

 

They might benefit from a slight bump in life-time regardless, perhaps 5 sec or so, or maybe a slight reduction to energy cost, to keep them up longer. Not sure, they need some tweak, but it may just be the AI right now. Also desperately need to get affinity for kills by shadows, as does Nyx with her Chaos and Mind Control. 

 

Overall very unique frame with great abilities, just hampered by being in a game that already has some mechanics set in place that somewhat limit him from shining. Also, hes in an odd no-mans land stats wise (ie between energy, speed and survivability), or so the numbers gurus say. (as do my own instincts after using him for a while)

 

props if DE reads this far into a thread, I know players will. 

[K_Shiro]

I must say it sounds strange to get extra loot from dead bodies - while the previously mentioned health/energy only extra loot sounds better.

 

I for one would do this:

Desecrate

The Necros curses the surrounding area so when enemies die within the accursed circle the Necros and his allies are healed and energized.

 

Or just plain make the bodies stay a bit more, or better: even if a body disappears, something, a blood stain, skull, you name it stays (so less things to render than actual bodies but they still stay) so you can actually use this ability. I couldn't use it even once yet. Seriously, all bodies just puff... rapidly decomposed. Meat eating bacteria? Hmm... :) Maybe the things that stay behind are little orbs or some light (souls) that only the Necros can see. That would give it a nice feel, like this:

Desecrate

The Necros can leech upon the souls of the recently deceased, granting health and energy to him and his allies.

 

Or the kind.

____________  _ _  ____________

 

[RekoHunter]

I must say it sounds strange to get extra loot from dead bodies - while the previously mentioned health/energy only extra loot sounds better.

 

I for one would do this:

Desecrate

The Necros curses the surrounding area so when enemies die within the accursed circle the Necros and his allies are healed and energized.

 

Or just plain make the bodies stay a bit more, or better: even if a body disappears, something, a blood stain, skull, you name it stays (so less things to render than actual bodies but they still stay) so you can actually use this ability. I couldn't use it even once yet. Seriously, all bodies just puff... rapidly decomposed. Meat eating bacteria? Hmm... :) Maybe the things that stay behind are little orbs or some light (souls) that only the Necros can see. That would give it a nice feel, like this:

Desecrate

The Necros can leech upon the souls of the recently deceased, granting health and energy to him and his allies.

 

Or the kind.

____________  _ _  ____________

 

 

 

I like it. My biggest issue is the whole "bodies" part. I honestly think if they let it use the same sensor that his number 4 uses and give health/energy based on a proc chance based on those numbers I think it would be much more useful/reliable. 

[Aggh]

Welp, Scott just said he isn't replacing desecrate. 80 pages with <10% of people wanting to keep it isn't enough feedback. Anyone hoping for useful reworks on any other frames should probably give up as well.

A lot of that so called feedback was/is made on the basis of not even having used nekros.  It's like how everyone whined about terror totem even though it would have easily been one of the best skills in the game for infested defense.

[Psyclosarin]

The logic behind the people wanting to keep Desecrate on Nekros is just so monumentally flawed.  People, we have a Sentinel which is purely based on farming.. it has a skill that pulls loot toward you so why not give it the skill to enhance what loot you can get? Does that not just seem like a logical step? Seriously!

 

No, it's not a bad skill, it's a damn handy skill, BUT it should NOT be a warframe power when we have this LOOTING sentinel. No one seems to have a decent argument for it that couldn't just be made to have DESECRATE given to CARRIER.

 

 

But seriously, I've forma'd Nekros twice already, I love this frame but the cost to equip that skill isn't worth the benefit. There are other mechanics already in the game that allow you to compensate to either not having enough ammo, energy or health, they're called AURAS and GEAR  (and if you were in a previous event, there is ammo mutation which is boss).

[K_Shiro]

Shadows of the dead...

I love the idea of this ability - instead of using dead enemies, this nanobot version actually has no problem with mechanical enemies so no problem in lore and I don't have to worry about the despawning bodies either.

Right now it's 10.0.6 and this ability is not exactly as powerful as it should be compared to the others. I mean it's obviously easy to compare it to Nyx's chaos. They both use enemies to damage enemies, but the only redeeming quality of Shadows of the dead that it has a 5 seconds longer duration on max. than Chaos. That's it for it's advantages over Chaos.

 

I mean Nyx's ability costs less and actually makes all the enemies fight amongst themselves effectively stopping nearly all hostile actions towards you, your allies and the occasional Pod you want to protect (they attack closest enemy so if you don't go close, only a few enemies may cause trouble). At the same time the Nekros' 4th ability summons only a few enemies that attack enemies in a rather questionable way (as pointed out in previous posts, their AI is not sufficient), while not really drawing any fire from the party or objective as long as you don't create a chokepoint with them on a bridge or whatever.

So mainly Nyx's 3rd ability stuns all enemies in area, gives way more damage on everyone in area, and costs less while lasting only 5 seconds less.

 

That's no good.

 

EDIT: Instead of editing left and right I've added Nekros to my "collection" topic's "Changing a few things" chapter:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/79196-concepts-of-mine-consumables-merchant-gambler-and-void-cause-i-like-that/#entry863293

____________  _ _  ____________

 

Edited September 19, 2013 by K_Shiro

[Enrys-RLC]

I still can't believe a necromancer warframe has only one ability related to raising the dead as minions. 

[seth]

Soul Punch: Simple, great and spam-able ability.

 

Terrify: Amazing, it is a life savior in certain situations.

 

Desecrate: This skill has potential and even now is quite useful. Problems are: enemies corpses disappear to fast, skill doesn't work on elemental damaged enemies or enemies that play animations while dying, and disintegrated enemies (maybe there should be some ash pile left over so this skill can be used), energy cost is high if we take in consideration previously listed facts.

 

Shadows Of The Dead: Huge potential, however there are a lot AI related problems, sometimes resurrected enemies don't get glow so players can't distinguish them from real enemies, shield sentinels should shield player to.

 

 

I really like this pure caster support type of frame, thank you for making it!

[Atra255]

I haven't read through the last 60-ish pages, so there's a big chance this has already been suggested.

Anyways, here's my idea for Desecrate: Ability toggle.

 

Wtf, right? Okay, let's disect my train of thought here.

 

 

1) Toggle.

Desecrate can be toggled ON or OFF by simply using the ability.

when it's toggled ON, there will be an obvious visual indicator that Nekros is in badass mode.

 

2) Energy management.

Activating the ability will reduce the Maximum energy of the warframe by 50/75/100 Energy. (numbers are just for illustration purposes, not balance)

This energy is NOT spent but put in a reserve: The moment Desecrate is toggled OFF, the maximum energy will go back to its normal level and the used energy is refunded immediatly. Makes you choose: do you want the extra items, or will you need the energy for other abilities... decisions, decisions.

 

3) Aura.

A) Desecrate has a 25/35/45% chance for ANY enemy killed within range of Nekros (range increases with Rank and Reach) to spawn additional items.

I think this would make it a handy team-ability to have, especially when waves/corpses of enemies are piling up.

OR

B) Desecrate has a 55/60/65% chance for enemies killed by Nekros to spawn additional items.

Higher chances for items to pop, but requires Nekros to get the killing blow.

Shouldn't be a problem seeing he needs the kills to fuel his army... AND seeing items pop like crazy when the ability procs shoud be rather satisfying.

 

 

So in short: You can toggle the ability ON for a reduction in Energy and gain a constant effect.

And the toggle ability can also be applied to other Warframes, no?

 

 

Flavor text: Nekros releases a host of nanomachines into his surroundings, transmuting slain enemies into usable resources.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Atra255

[ChaoticEdge]

fixing issue report:

 *edit it at 11:45 September 19/13

 

-shadow of the dead

AI still having friendly fire by heavy grineer (heavy fire grineer)

 

Player who kill heavy grineer made massive spam earthquake which we want that part fix and causing lots headaches (heavy fire, rocket and machine gun grineer)

 

AI players can't be tell between allies or foe because miss shadow color.

Edited September 19, 2013 by ChaoticEdge

[Aggh]

 

The logic behind the people wanting to keep Desecrate on Nekros is just so monumentally flawed.  People, we have a Sentinel which is purely based on farming.. it has a skill that pulls loot toward you so why not give it the skill to enhance what loot you can get? Does that not just seem like a logical step? Seriously!

 

No, it's not a bad skill, it's a damn handy skill, BUT it should NOT be a warframe power when we have this LOOTING sentinel. No one seems to have a decent argument for it that couldn't just be made to have DESECRATE given to CARRIER.

 

 

But seriously, I've forma'd Nekros twice already, I love this frame but the cost to equip that skill isn't worth the benefit. There are other mechanics already in the game that allow you to compensate to either not having enough ammo, energy or health, they're called AURAS and GEAR  (and if you were in a previous event, there is ammo mutation which is boss).

 

Carrier picks up loot.  Nekros makes it.  There's a very big difference.  The extra ammo, health and energy are nice too, especially if you're leveling new weapons.  It gives nekros some excellent utility while the more random nature of the skill and the fact that it's drops means it doesn't encroach too much on trinity's territory.

 

 

 

Desecrate: This skill has potential and even now is quite useful. Problems are: enemies corpses disappear to fast, skill doesn't work on elemental damaged enemies or enemies that play animations while dying, and disintegrated enemies (maybe there should be some ash pile left over so this skill can be used), energy cost is high if we take in consideration previously listed facts.

 

 

People have been pushing the idea that you can't desecrate corpses killed by elemental.  This isn't really true.  You have to get them early on  as they disintigrate, but it does work on them.  I specifically use acrid because it's damage output+slow disintegration means I can quickly kill large groups and desecrate them. Hell, if you time it right, you can even desecrate a molecular primed group.  This isn't to say that the way corpses are disposed of isn't problematic, just not exactly in the way people are saying it is.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Aggh

[Shadowpen]

People have been pushing the idea that you can't desecrate corpses killed by elemental.  This isn't really true.  You have to get them early on  as they disintigrate, but it does work on them.  I specifically use acrid because it's damage output+slow disintegration means I can quickly kill large groups and desecrate them. Hell, if you time it right, you can even desecrate a molecular primed group.  This isn't to say that the way corpses are disposed of isn't problematic, just not exactly in the way people are saying it is.

I usually use elemental everything because I like the idea. But now I have switched to a high crit pistol build because, even timed right before disappearance, I still was getting zero use out of Desecrate.  But even when I had no elemental damage and the corpses were just lying there, I have still gotten zero use from it.  Nothing pops up.  The corpses glow with the color sparkle things and then just vanish when their time comes.  No extra loot, no orbs, nothing.  I have become quite irked with this one ability in particular.  I am seriously considering forma farming so I can get rid of its place 

[SupercatLV]

First and second abilities are good and I like them very much. Ultimate is also nice although AI on spawned shadows is super bad, they usually try to shoot through the walls and celling. The real problem is Desecrate skill, although the idea of aditional loot is nice and so far unique for warframes the realisation is just horrible, plus since the last two patches I only get health orbs constanly, so there is zero point using this ability right now.

Edited September 19, 2013 by SupercatLV

[Phatose]

Shadow is OK, but zombies need to have green orbs on minimap, not red.

Terror is meh.  Soul punch is OK.

Desecrate is totally awesome.  Increased my average mod and resource drop by 50% when used correctly.  Love it.

[frozenballz]

I haven't read through the last 60-ish pages, so there's a big chance this has already been suggested.

Anyways, here's my idea for Desecrate: Ability toggle.

 

Wtf, right? Okay, let's disect my train of thought here.

 

 

1) Toggle.

Desecrate can be toggled ON or OFF by simply using the ability.

when it's toggled ON, there will be an obvious visual indicator that Nekros is in badass mode.

 

2) Energy management.

Activating the ability will reduce the Maximum energy of the warframe by 50/75/100 Energy. (numbers are just for illustration purposes, not balance)

This energy is NOT spent but put in a reserve: The moment Desecrate is toggled OFF, the maximum energy will go back to its normal level and the used energy is refunded immediatly. Makes you choose: do you want the extra items, or will you need the energy for other abilities... decisions, decisions.

 

3) Aura.

A) Desecrate has a 25/35/45% chance for ANY enemy killed within range of Nekros (range increases with Rank and Reach) to spawn additional items.

I think this would make it a handy team-ability to have, especially when waves/corpses of enemies are piling up.

OR

B) Desecrate has a 55/60/65% chance for enemies killed by Nekros to spawn additional items.

Higher chances for items to pop, but requires Nekros to get the killing blow.

Shouldn't be a problem seeing he needs the kills to fuel his army... AND seeing items pop like crazy when the ability procs shoud be rather satisfying.

 

 

So in short: You can toggle the ability ON for a reduction in Energy and gain a constant effect.

And the toggle ability can also be applied to other Warframes, no?

 

 

Flavor text: Nekros releases a host of nanomachines into his surroundings, transmuting slain enemies into usable resources.

 

 

This is an interesting idea. Making desecrate a toggled ability might be a better option than what it is currently. Toggle it once to turn it on, get a bonus in loot drops but a penalty in power (power sap over time for having desecrate active, like nightmare, just not as brutally fast perhaps) and/or a penalty in shields or health, toggle it back off and your power sap stops and health/shield returns to what it should be. add it so you have to land a killing blow to have even higher chances of loot drops is also interesting too.

 

 

regarding shadows of the dead, i was thinking a revamp. I cant say im a fan of this power at all in its current shape or form. here's an alternative. like most frames, change this ability to work in a radius (increases radius/damage per level) where it does damage to enemies- if it kills them, their souls are ripped out of their bodies and become shades of their former selves, (half strength though) and fight for nekros for a limited period of time. if the initial power cast does not kill the enemies, it will stun them, as their soul tries to escape out of them- the victim will be rooted to the spot and stunned, where they have the current shadows of the dead effect trying to escape from them as a visual indication of the power trying to uproot the victim's soul from their body and them fighting to keep control of it. 

 

soul punch is fine as a first ability i guess, no need to change that, nor terrify i spose. 

[__Kanade__]

Bringing back Shockwave Moa's with Shadows of The Dead is an unbelieveably bad idea, I kept getting spammed with their constant shockwave aoes, never gave me a chance to even get up before being hit another one. That needs to get looked at, Shockwave Moas don't have their KB ( Knockback ) when they hit an enemy, it just passes through them, but it still does KB towards me and the rest of my team, very annoying to deal with when you have 8 of the dam things on your side.

 

Another thing that needs to get looked at is the actual benefit of having an Ancient Healer or Shield Osprey, we don't get healed by the Ancients and we don't get the shield buff from the Shield Ospreys after it was mentioned that you would get added benefits of having one or both on your side for the short period of time they're alive.

[Dracosaber]

Bringing back Shockwave Moa's with Shadows of The Dead is an unbelieveably bad idea, I kept getting spammed with their constant shockwave aoes, never gave me a chance to even get up before being hit another one. That needs to get looked at, Shockwave Moas don't have their KB ( Knockback ) when they hit an enemy, it just passes through them, but it still does KB towards me and the rest of my team, very annoying to deal with when you have 8 of the dam things on your side.

 

Another thing that needs to get looked at is the actual benefit of having an Ancient Healer or Shield Osprey, we don't get healed by the Ancients and we don't get the shield buff from the Shield Ospreys after it was mentioned that you would get added benefits of having one or both on your side for the short period of time they're alive.

 

You should report this, or make a thread about this. This post could easily be lost among the others. This needs immediate attention. O.o

[Djangofett]

I can't get myself to like Desecrate. Unfortunately, I'm not too fond of Nekros either. He looks cool and the "necro theme" lured me in, but I have a feeling he's just not for me. Back to Desecrate, I can see some application in missions where everyone is staying in the same spot like the defense modes and survival. But those are only part of the game and even then we have team consumables that better provide ammo/health/energy.

 

Personally, I would prefer an ability viable across any mission type. We only get 4 to choose from after all. I would take a crowd control or buff/debuff ability over a chance at mods I probably already have or a chance at resources any day.

[Darkmoone1]

 

Personally, I would prefer an ability viable across any mission type. We only get 4 to choose from after all. I would take a crowd control or buff/debuff ability over a chance at mods I probably already have or a chance at resources any day.

 

I feel that it's not about mods or resources. The ability gives you health orbs the most out of anything, which gives you huge amounts sustain when killing a bunch of enemies in a room(Fully maxed desecrate can net you the goods from certain distances.).

 

The problem is when the bodies disintegrate. Fortunatley I use the Strun Wraith so the bodies....for the most part, stay intact.

[Djangofett]

Again, we already have team heal/energy restore/ammo restore consumables that replenish more than Desecrate does and without an energy cost. Unlike Desecrate, they're guaranteed to work and apply instantly. You can bring a lot of them into a mission too.

[Darkmoone1]

Again, we already have team heal/energy restore/ammo restore consumables that replenish more than Desecrate does and without an energy cost. Unlike Desecrate, they're guaranteed to work and apply instantly. You can bring a lot of them into a mission too.

What's wrong with having even more replenishment along with you? Energy isn't too much of a problem unless you like to spam your abilities which isn't too much of an issue since SotD has the in use function, spamming desecrate on more than once on the same amount of corpses isn't such a good idea, Terrify is used to mainly help control the crowds and has a decent duration and spamming Soul punch is only 25 energy. With things like flow and energy siphon, I really don't feel energy is a problem for Nekros.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Darkmoone1

[Djangofett]

I'm not saying Energy is a problem, I'm saying aside from the chance at mods or resources, consumables do a better job at general replenishment than Desecrate does. Since frames only have 4 abilities to choose from. This puts Desecrate in a bit of a gimmicky position. Knowing there are consumables that provide more than Desecrate, would you rather have the little bit of extra replenishment Desecrate sometimes has to offer, or a different skill all together that has more practical use across all mission types? As you already mentioned, the majority of what Desecrate spawns are health orbs and they're only useful when you've sustained hp damage and plan on staying in one spot for prolonged periods of time.

[Darkmoone1]

I'm not saying Energy is a problem, I'm saying aside from the chance at mods or resources, consumables do a better job at general replenishment than Desecrate does. Since frames only have 4 abilities to choose from. This puts Desecrate in a bit of a gimmicky position. Knowing there are consumables that provide more than Desecrate, would you rather have the little bit of extra replenishment Desecrate sometimes has to offer, or a different skill all together that has more practical use across all mission types? As you already mentioned, the majority of what Desecrate spawns are health orbs and they're only useful when you've sustained hp damage and plan on staying in one spot for prolonged periods of time.

Well you mentioned the consumables not using energy, so naturally I thought you believed energy was a problem. Also it's not a sometimes. When using it on a single enemy the chances of you losing health(Or energy, the possibility of getting energy is also there, just slightly lower) is very slim. In return not only is using worthless to use since you probably took no damage, but the chances of getting anything is extremely slim since its one enemy. If you fight, say five enemies in a room, I believe you're guaranteed at least 2 health orbs in one shot. It's not a sometimes and it is useful on mission types where you take damage. You don't have to stay in one spot to have desecretes benefits....

 

And if you're talking about team heal restore......you seriously gonna waste buying resources and credits buying a ton of these things, plant them and wait for each pulse to heal you? Why? Why not just have a Nekros 3 the bodies, let the health pop, quickly pick em up and go on your way? Do you hate staying in areas for prolonged periods of time?

[Psyclosarin]

Carrier picks up loot.  Nekros makes it.  There's a very big difference.  The extra ammo, health and energy are nice too, especially if you're leveling new weapons.  It gives nekros some excellent utility while the more random nature of the skill and the fact that it's drops means it doesn't encroach too much on trinity's territory.

 

Did you just ignore most of what I said? I really think you did.

 

"Carrier picks up loot.  Nekros makes it.  There's a very big difference."

This is totally &#036;&amp;*&amp;*#(%&amp; logic,  Carrier's sole purpose is for farming, desecrate's main purpose is farming. I'm clearly missing how this is a "big" difference, they are both to do with the physical aspect of looting, that, in the big world of Warframe is an immensely tiny difference. 

 

You can sing the tune of "health/energy orbs and ammo" as much as you like but there are auras and mods that already fulfil that exact purpose. 

 

So yet again, I repeat myself, the skill is not "bad" at any rate but is does not belong on a Warframe when we have a LOOTING sentinel.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Psyclosarin