So, when are we getting ACTUAL dynamic Riven dispositions?

[Sebastianx]

8 minutes ago, Oreades said:

I think they should probably do it monthly and the disposition shift should be controlled/limited to one point per cycle. So popular rivens don't just totally crash over night. 

They also need to weight it with respect to new prime/Vanda/Wraith/Prisma releases because otherwise that initial spike in use will tank pretty much any Riven around new variant releases. 

That said I definitely think they should balance them more consistently.

I actually agree with the "1 point per cycle" thing. However I don't agree with the monthly change, that's too long of a time for a bit of a meta to get established and if that happens, we'll see 2 cycles in which X is powerful and Y is weak, and the next cycle Y is powerful and X is weak. Key is to not let a weapon meta to establish, and DE had a good idea with Rivens but it was poorly implemented, as static stats will lead to static builds which in turn leads to X always being stronger than Y.

As for primes/vandals etc, the % usage should only take in consideration whichever version of the weapon is used more as that one is most likely the most powerful, even if that means the weaker versions will get hurt (anyone most people almost always use the stronger version regardless of weapon, no one in their right mind will use Gram over Gram Prime).

[Hypernaut1]

7 minutes ago, Sebastianx said:

I actually agree with the "1 point per cycle" thing. However I don't agree with the monthly change, that's too long of a time for a bit of a meta to get established and if that happens, we'll see 2 cycles in which X is powerful and Y is weak, and the next cycle Y is powerful and X is weak. Key is to not let a weapon meta to establish, and DE had a good idea with Rivens but it was poorly implemented, as static stats will lead to static builds which in turn leads to X always being stronger than Y.

As for primes/vandals etc, the % usage should only take in consideration whichever version of the weapon is used more as that one is most likely the most powerful, even if that means the weaker versions will get hurt (anyone most people almost always use the stronger version regardless of weapon, no one in their right mind will use Gram over Gram Prime).

How would this change the "meta"? I don't think players will constantly cycle their weapons anyway. If anything, people will just start ignoring disposition. Remember, people CANT have a Riven for every weapon. So if someone invest in a so called "Meta" riven, why would they stop using that weapon? Why would they constantly check disposition to see what their riven is doing? +CC,+CD will still be better than no riven at all. That player will most likely STILL use that weapon. Especially since it's a small chance they can easily jump to the next best high disposition riven.

Edited October 26, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[mikakor]

14 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

With disposition, it's less likely you have an absolute awesome riven for op weapons and more likely you have an awesome riven for lower end weapons

Tiberon Prime, Gram Prime, And Rubico Prime say hi. 

[Hypernaut1]

Just now, mikakor said:

Tiberon Prime, Gram Prime, And Rubico Prime say hi. 

I honestly don't see those weapons in EVERY mission I play, and I don't see them breaking missions. That's just my personal experience. Stats may say different. 

Lankas do break Eidelons hunts though, but my non riven Lanka still did well, so it wouldn't change a thing if my riven got nerfed. Id still use it.

Edited October 26, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[mikakor]

Just now, Hypernaut1 said:

I honestly don't see those weapons in EVERY mission I play

But they are incredibly good, yet also have an amazing disposition, for tiberon, and neutral, for Rubico. But you are definitely right, they aren't used in every mission and I myself wonder why tiberon isn't more used. This thing is a beast. 

On the other side let's look at the Soma, who clearly isn't as popular as it used to be, where you would see before Soma used on almost 2/4 team member, you now see it... Well, almost never. And yet it have a 1/5 disposition. Can we say that it is a clear problem to the "bring less used weapons in the light" ? Or other less popular or never used weapons , that have a disposition of 1/5 because... Reasons. Even if almost never used.

[ExcaliburUmbra]

21 minutes ago, Sebastianx said:

Then if prices drop even lower, so be it, again, a price worth paying for the variety acquired in return. 

Also, DE themselves said Rivens will be dynamic, because they realized it would just be ridiculous for someone to just sit there and adjust hundreds of weapons on a regular basis depending on how strong they are.

I’d be fine with lower prices. Spending over 100p for a riven is dumb imo but the market is what it is.

Also my proposal wouldn’t need someone to manually adjust them on a regular basis. The ranged weapons are currently sorted into various MR brackets thanks to a sustained DPS formula that takes into account crit and status. Basically the higher MR, the more powerful a weapon is (ignoring melee atm, but that will be changed in 3.0).

What I’d like DE to do is get rid of fluid disposition changes entirely and base disposition on the actual power of the weapon using said dps formula as a basis. So a low MR weapon will always have higher riven disposition then a high MR weapon. And variants would work the same way, so equipping a Sicarus riven on a regular Sicarus will result in higher stats then equipping it on a Sicarus Prime.

This would result in buffs to low powered/underused weapons while ensuring that Prime variants won’t become brazenly overpowered. And a static disposition would let Tenno invest in the riven of their choice with more security, knowing that what they are purchasing won’t suddenly change a few weeks later.

[Sebastianx]

11 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Not really. Weapons used to be popular because they were clearly the best no question asked. This lead to a situation where 3/4 loadouts in a high end mission would have a boltor, or every player would be using a telos boltace. That's why disposition was introduced and why weapons are nerfed in general.

With disposition, it's less likely you have an absolute awesome riven for op weapons and more likely you have an awesome riven for lower end weapons. This initially broke up people being addicted to the meta. I don't see that problem in Warframe anymore. There are tons of variety due to the system. When things start getting homogenous again, is when I get they will address disposition again.

And if things stay as they are, a stronger meta will be enforced over time, that's the natural state of video games, when presented with 2 options players will always choose the better one unless the game is a competitive game in which a weaker version will be used for either fun or for humiliation of the opponent (take Forza games, they have a stupid amount of vehicle variety and what's more fun than beating a guy in a Lambo with a 1974 Reliant Robin or a Peel P50), that's the only time someone will pick something objectively weaker.

In PvE games, ESPECIALLY HEAVY GRIND GAMES like Warframe, people will always pick the best option. The worst offender in Warframe's history has to be Acrid, when absolutely EVERYONE was using it for around half a year back in 2013 if I remember correctly. You'd constantly see room after room of players with random leveling gear as their primary and melee and with Acrid as their secondary.

History is going to repeat itself slowly but surely, as soon as more people get Lanka rivens with decent rolls, you'll see ONLY Lanka being used alongside Volt and Shraksun scaffold since Lanka with even half a decent Riven can 1 shot Eidolon parts, has by far the best zoom-in stat boost, Volt can easily buff crit damage of both Lanka and Shraksun scaffold, and the Shraksun itself built for crit utterly devastates the Eidolon especially with Madurai's Void Strike which also works on Lanka. Every tridolon hunt I do, I always have over 90% damage dealt with that setup, and half of my clan is already are going towards that exact build, why? Because that's what people do in PvE grind heavy games. Someone finds X broken build, and slowly everyone gravitates towards it. Simple human nature.

[Erytroxylin]

56 minutes ago, Sebastianx said:

Snipetron Vandal as with Rivens they'll be closer to Lanka in power level than they currently are

Not really. I have a decent Snipetron Vandal riven and a Lanka without a riven. For Eidolons(the only place to really use a sniper), I still use the Lanka because it does better.

[Hypernaut1]

Just now, mikakor said:

But they are incredibly good, yet also have an amazing disposition, for tiberon, and neutral, for Rubico. But you are definitely right, they aren't used in every mission and I myself wonder why tiberon isn't more used. This thing is a beast. 

On the other side let's look at the Soma, who clearly isn't as popular as it used to be, where you would see before Soma used on almost 2/4 team member, you now see it... Well, almost never. And yet it have a 1/5 disposition. Can we say that it is a clear problem to the "bring less used weapons in the light" ? Or other less popular or never used weapons , that have a disposition of 1/5 because... Reasons. Even if almost never used.

Well I agree that some very low dispo weapons could be bumped up. 

I wouldn't do it across the board, but some things could definitely use some love. 

I honestly would prefer devs tweak stats at this point, along with carefully considering the disposition of new weapons. There should be an internal measure of max DPS and prevent new weapons from passing that with a low dispo riven.

 

[ExcaliburUmbra]

3 minutes ago, Erytroxylin said:

Not really. I have a decent Snipetron Vandal riven and a Lanka without a riven. For Eidolons(the only place to really use a sniper), I still use the Lanka because it does better.

OP meant that under his proposal riven stats for high disposition weapons would be buffed to the point where Snipetron with a riven could compete with Lanka, not that it’s happening currently.

Edited October 26, 2018 by OmegaZero633

[Hypernaut1]

4 minutes ago, Sebastianx said:

And if things stay as they are, a stronger meta will be enforced over time, that's the natural state of video games, when presented with 2 options players will always choose the better one unless the game is a competitive game in which a weaker version will be used for either fun or for humiliation of the opponent (take Forza games, they have a stupid amount of vehicle variety and what's more fun than beating a guy in a Lambo with a 1974 Reliant Robin or a Peel P50), that's the only time someone will pick something objectively weaker.

In PvE games, ESPECIALLY HEAVY GRIND GAMES like Warframe, people will always pick the best option. The worst offender in Warframe's history has to be Acrid, when absolutely EVERYONE was using it for around half a year back in 2013 if I remember correctly. You'd constantly see room after room of players with random leveling gear as their primary and melee and with Acrid as their secondary.

History is going to repeat itself slowly but surely, as soon as more people get Lanka rivens with decent rolls, you'll see ONLY Lanka being used alongside Volt and Shraksun scaffold since Lanka with even half a decent Riven can 1 shot Eidolon parts, has by far the best zoom-in stat boost, Volt can easily buff crit damage of both Lanka and Shraksun scaffold, and the Shraksun itself built for crit utterly devastates the Eidolon especially with Madurai's Void Strike which also works on Lanka. Every tridolon hunt I do, I always have over 90% damage dealt with that setup, and half of my clan is already are going towards that exact build, why? Because that's what people do in PvE grind heavy games. Someone finds X broken build, and slowly everyone gravitates towards it. Simple human nature.

I completely agree that we would need a disposition adjustment if a heavy meta develops again. I just don't see it being at that state now.

[Sebastianx]

46 minutes ago, kuchn said:

why would DE do this?
I am sure they have increased their plat sales with the riven system by a large margin. This means the financial success of the company grew, which in turn, pleased the shareholders. Since the rivens were introduced the player count also has increased and, at least for the moment, is still increasing.

In total DE is a successful company that likely grew its profits by attracting more customers to their product and finding a successful way to implement another monetization strategy.

I have no idea why people still think that warframe is anything other than a product that is being sold to customers. It is nothing else than that.

asking again: Name one reason why DE would do that, please?

Because I'd like to believe DE actually cares about this game, they're not EA. Am I a fool for believing that? Only time will tell

https://gamerant.com/warframe-microtransaction-kubrow/

Edited October 26, 2018 by Sebastianx

[Hypernaut1]

5 minutes ago, OmegaZero633 said:

 

What I’d like DE to do is get rid of fluid disposition changes entirely and base disposition on the actual power of the weapon using said dps formula as a basis. So a low MR weapon will always have higher riven disposition then a high MR weapon. And variants would work the same way, so equipping a Sicarus riven on a regular Sicarus will result in higher stats then equipping it on a Sicarus Prime.

 

I would think that's how they decide on disposition for new weapons. based on the weapons potential DPS.

[Sebastianx]

24 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

You don't see variety in weapon use now? Maybe that's the disconnect. I personally feel like I see a huge variety now. I don't even see the secure lecta as much anymore. That was the last overused weapon I can recall. 

Currently, I'll notice a few favorites, like the arca, but they're definitely not ubiquitous like before.  

I also feel that a Lanka riven will stay expensive, but GOD rolls will become even rarer with constantly nerfed dispositions, Thus making riven prices go even higher. So it doesn't even really solve the market problem either, not unless you want to make rivens useless you powerful weapons... which I don't think is any fun at all. 

Lately (past year) DE released weapons with somewhat appropriate Riven dispositions which has indeed added a bit of variety, but that doesn't mean 95% of weapons are considered nothing more than mastery fodder.

[Hypernaut1]

7 minutes ago, Erytroxylin said:

Not really. I have a decent Snipetron Vandal riven and a Lanka without a riven. For Eidolons(the only place to really use a sniper), I still use the Lanka because it does better.

This is why I don't think anything will change much anyway. A weapon that's good without a riven will still have a highly sought after low dispo riven.  A boost is a boost.  

If disposition makes rivens for weaker weapons surpass all meta easily, then those rivens now become meta and highly sought after. Prices will still be insane.

With the current state of the meta, its not bad enough where disposition changes will see a huge shift in usage. Not unless they make rivens unfairly trash for the current meta weapons. 

[Sebastianx]

17 minutes ago, mikakor said:

But they are incredibly good, yet also have an amazing disposition, for tiberon, and neutral, for Rubico. But you are definitely right, they aren't used in every mission and I myself wonder why tiberon isn't more used. This thing is a beast. 

On the other side let's look at the Soma, who clearly isn't as popular as it used to be, where you would see before Soma used on almost 2/4 team member, you now see it... Well, almost never. And yet it have a 1/5 disposition. Can we say that it is a clear problem to the "bring less used weapons in the light" ? Or other less popular or never used weapons , that have a disposition of 1/5 because... Reasons. Even if almost never used.

Finally someone understands, and Soma Prime is probably one of the better examples of this, you could literally notice with every new patch its popularity and meta-ness slowly dropping to the point where it's basically a Braton Prime but with crit if both have Rivens. Soma Prime disposition would benefit from such a change, imagine a 150% crit chance and crit damage riven for Soma Prime right now. Instant bump in popularity.

[Hypernaut1]

4 minutes ago, Sebastianx said:

Lately (past year) DE released weapons with somewhat appropriate Riven dispositions which has indeed added a bit of variety, but that doesn't mean 95% of weapons are considered nothing more than mastery fodder.

There will always be a best. Riven disposition won't change that because you would still need a riven on order to take advantage. Just because mastery fodder got a riven boost doesn't mean everyone will start using it because everyone won't have that riven.

A little off topic....Honestly, I would love if they overhauled Riven stats to include cool effects for high disposition Rivens instead of just regular ol damage boost. That would truly make high disposition Rivens popular and more sought after

[Sebastianx]

18 minutes ago, OmegaZero633 said:

I’d be fine with lower prices. Spending over 100p for a riven is dumb imo but the market is what it is.

Also my proposal wouldn’t need someone to manually adjust them on a regular basis. The ranged weapons are currently sorted into various MR brackets thanks to a sustained DPS formula that takes into account crit and status. Basically the higher MR, the more powerful a weapon is (ignoring melee atm, but that will be changed in 3.0).

What I’d like DE to do is get rid of fluid disposition changes entirely and base disposition on the actual power of the weapon using said dps formula as a basis. So a low MR weapon will always have higher riven disposition then a high MR weapon. And variants would work the same way, so equipping a Sicarus riven on a regular Sicarus will result in higher stats then equipping it on a Sicarus Prime.

This would result in buffs to low powered/underused weapons while ensuring that Prime variants won’t become brazenly overpowered. And a static disposition would let Tenno invest in the riven of their choice with more security, knowing that what they are purchasing won’t suddenly change a few weeks later.

The problem with such a formula is that it doesn't take into consideration the area of effect of said weapon. Imagine a Ignis-like weapon with Phantasma-like damage. They'd have the same damage but Phantasma would be vastly weaker.

[Hypernaut1]

2 minutes ago, Sebastianx said:

Finally someone understands, and Soma Prime is probably one of the better examples of this, you could literally notice with every new patch its popularity and meta-ness slowly dropping to the point where it's basically a Braton Prime but with crit if both have Rivens. Soma Prime disposition would benefit from such a change, imagine a 150% crit chance and crit damage riven for Soma Prime right now. Instant bump in popularity.

In that case, I agree soma should get a boost... But would you then want to see it nerfed again in a week or two due to dynamic dispo changes?

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

my only problem with this idea is that weapons like the Kohm, that actually need rivens to be good, would be a weapon you could use every other week. One week, the rivens can do their job, so everyone uses the weapon, then the game detects a large amount of use, nerfs the rivens, and no one uses the weapon that week, which the game detects, buffs the rivens, and then the cycle repeats.

This might work for most weapons, but the weapons that rivens were originally intended for would be hit hardest, which would be counter to the intention.

[kuchn]

15 minutes ago, Sebastianx said:

Because I'd like to believe DE actually cares about this game, they're not EA. Am I fool for believing that? Only time will tell

https://gamerant.com/warframe-microtransaction-kubrow/

tbh
i think this was more of a marketing gig. they removed an obvious slot machine for which they are directly responsible and the result is positive feedback.
rivens however are not that obvious because the plat aspect only comes in with the economy, which is driven by players. so in the end they have a slot machine  BUT can always get back to "we are not responsible for the player driven economy". this is a pristine money maker.
who would have thought that rivens will drive plat sales?! i'm sure DE never had that in mind 😄

why would they remove a slotmachine for which they can not be made directly responsible and still creates a great amount of plat sales?
that's like a marketing wet dream...

[Sebastianx]

19 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

This is why I don't think anything will change much anyway. A weapon that's good without a riven will still have a highly sought after low dispo riven.  A boost is a boost.  

If disposition makes rivens for weaker weapons surpass all meta easily, then those rivens now become meta and highly sought after. Prices will still be insane.

With the current state of the meta, its not bad enough where disposition changes will see a huge shift in usage. Not unless they make rivens unfairly trash for the current meta weapons. 

A boost is a boost only if there aren't other appropriate mods to fill the gap with, at which point you'll start wondering. Is the 1 disposition 50% damage, 20% reload speed and 20% zoom-in worth more than a 60% multishot mod?

[DeMonkey]

17 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

One week, the rivens can do their job, so everyone uses the weapon, then the game detects a large amount of use, nerfs the rivens, and no one uses the weapon that week, which the game detects, buffs the rivens, and then the cycle repeats.

Depends on the parameters used, and just how many people use the weapon.

I actually haven't see anyone using the Kohm since Rivens were released, not even once. Arca Plasmors, Ignises, Whips etc sure, but not the Kohm. It's possible that there aren't enough people for it's disposition to drop to a point where it can't hit 100%.

This feels like a "worst case scenario" type deal, and certainly something that could be worked around by DE, possibly by simply changing Shotgun status chance so that each pellet has a chance to proc, instead of just a single pellet. That way a high status chance riven with it would still be good, even with reduced disposition.

Edited October 26, 2018 by DeMonkey

[seprent]

Skipping my rant posting idea 

Get a bot that looks like the % of weapon usage for the past 2-3 weeks then buffs and nerfs dispositions accordingly since DE can readily get that data to begin with 

Due to 100/5=20 we can have the thresholds being in sets of 20

80+ to 100% = 1 

60+ to 80% = 2

40+ to 60% = 3

20+ to 40% = 4

0+ to 20% = 5 

[Hypernaut1]

6 minutes ago, Sebastianx said:

A boost is a boost only if there aren't other appropriate mods to fill the gap with, at which point you'll start wondering. Is the 1 disposition 50% damage, 20% reload speed and 20% zoom-in worth more than a 60% multishot mod?

But a +cc+CD riven will almost always be good and still keep a meta weapon as meta