Looking for a new layer of gameplay customization.

[MasterBurik]

 

35 minutes ago, TheRealShade said:

The definition of insanity, is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different outcome.

That definition sounds much closer to perseverance and persistence than insanity.

 

All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better.

-Samuel Beckett, Worstward Ho

Edited November 1, 2018 by MasterBurik

[Rakosta_Kai]

5 minutes ago, MasterBurik said:

 

That definition sounds much closer to perseverance and persistence than insanity.

 

All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better.

-Samuel Beckett, Worstward Ho

It should... The distinctions between them aren't that large.

Final results will often determine the difference between them long term.

[mikakor]

14 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Final results will often determine the difference between them long term.

And the result here looks similar to the last thread. 

Let's see how much time this one survive before being locked. 

[FlusteredFerret]

36 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

It should... The distinctions between them aren't that large.

Final results will often determine the difference between them long term.

Well with science experiments, you repeat them on purpose to make sure the results you get are consistent and an accurate / expected outcome. So you can say with confidence that doing X will result in Y. 

In some cases though, it is just insanity... 

 

[(PSN)santospizarro]

12 hours ago, WindigoTG said:

 

Yeah, at this point I'm totally going to update it with each new version of this topic.

yes. YES! y e s.! Si!!...YES!!!!! i seriosly want this in the next patch. its actually pretty good graphics.

[Rakosta_Kai]

37 minutes ago, mikakor said:

And the result here looks similar to the last thread. 

Let's see how much time this one survive before being locked. 

I think the expectations are reception are similar...As to the rest it doesn't seem like alot of arguing.

I don't agree with some of the more basic premises put forward (I've made my case for why very clear already in the previous thread) but do agree with the idea that new gameplay layers aren't a bad idea.

...My problem with it all regards the notion that as long as you have the existing systems in place there's already someplace for the ones being suggested to be.

12 minutes ago, FlusteredFerret said:

Well with science experiments, you repeat them on purpose to make sure the results you get are consistent and an accurate / expected outcome. So you can say with confidence that doing X will result in Y. 

In some cases though, it is just insanity... 

 

All of the above are true 

A good example between the difference of Insanity and Tenacity would be the I-Phone.

You wouldn't have the I-Phone if the Newton had never existed.

The Newton was an expensive flop though.

...Jobs still went for it anyway.

The fact that it panned out made the decision an act of tenacity and vision...What would it have been called if the I-phone had flopped too though?

 

It's a strange irony that humans love applying labels but detest actually being labeled.

Go figure.

[MasterBurik]

1 hour ago, Padre_Akais said:

It should... The distinctions between them aren't that large.

Final results will often determine the difference between them long term.

You can be insane without pursuing repetitive actions with (or without) an expectation of a different outcome. The fact that that quote persists in our culture would imply something quite upsetting, if it were actually accurate.

 

I believe this thread was meant to be a communal exchange of ideas that could expand our ability to customize our frames/builds beyond the current systems.

1. Present your concept.
2. Receive constructive criticism.
3. Review concepts from others.
4. Provide constructive criticism.
5. Adapt and adjust your concept.
6. Repeat.

It seems I may have missed out on my own "presentation", but I will provide some constructive criticism nonetheless (I can always expand upon my own if necessary):

@FrostDragoon 

Why go with a socket-like system? I'm not sure what exactly it is bringing to the table, beyond being a separate pool for base stat modification. It's more of a thematic issue, but I am still curious as to why you would like to go this route.

I am quite wary of straight stat boosts without the system requiring something else in exchange. This goes doubly so for a base stat increase, as that term is significant in regards to how a number calculations work within Warframe's mechanics.

This concern is also fed by the level of accessibility and availability you suggest this concept to have. When you consider:

• the average game population in a 24 hour period,
• the average mission completion times for each mission type,
• a sector-based "orb" pool,
• and a 2% drop rate on rotation completion

I doubt it will take much time before these items will be more accessible than arcanes, and most rare mods. At that point, the system just becomes a "given" buff to frames that many will begin to take for granted. I don't see the long term value in it.

 

An expansion of non-aesthetic customization (I keep flip flopping on what the best term for this is, as some tend to attribute "customization" directly to aesthetics and nothing more) is certainly a good thing, provided that it can do more (or better, depending on personal preference) than the current systems. And expansion doesn't necessarily just mean "a new system". It can just as easily mean "adjusting or splitting a current system". *Nekros casts Terrify!*

 

Edited November 1, 2018 by MasterBurik

[Rakosta_Kai]

34 minutes ago, MasterBurik said:

You can be insane without pursuing repetitive actions with (or without) an expectation of a different outcome. The fact that that quote persists in our culture would imply something quite upsetting, if it were actually accurate.

The same applies to being tenacious.

...Or cautious.

...Or meticulous.

That doesn't mean that the quote is incorrect insomuch as it suggests that the quote isn't entirely complete...Which makes perfect sense because all quotes are taken out of their original context.

In order for a line to be a quote it literally has to resonate so much that it gets removed from its' actual content/context to be placed in general use with implied expectations on the listener.

39 minutes ago, MasterBurik said:

I believe this thread was meant to be a communal exchange of ideas that could expand our ability to customize our frames/builds beyond the current systems.

1. Present your concept.
2. Receive constructive criticism.
3. Review concepts from others.
4. Provide constructive criticism.
5. Adapt and adjust your concept.
6. Repeat.

Worthwhile goals...But the bulk of the relevant push-back is occurring from the premise itself.

...So until you solve for those issues with the premise itself you are stuck with the same pushback.

What makes this idea so unique it can't be placed in any of the three potential systems we already have in place now?

How do we countenance a request for more power applied to frames when the general impression is that we are over-powered for the content already?

What specific needs does this idea address?

I, personally, think the discussion has merit but have still not seen anything that cleans up the premise(even for me) as yet.

 

[FrostDragoon]

2 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

Worthwhile goals...But the bulk of the relevant push-back is occurring from the premise itself.

...So until you solve for those issues with the premise itself you are stuck with the same pushback.

What makes this idea so unique it can't be placed in any of the three potential systems we already have in place now?

How do we countenance a request for more power applied to frames when the general impression is that we are over-powered for the content already?

What specific needs does this idea address?

I, personally, think the discussion has merit but have still not seen anything that cleans up the premise(even for me) as yet.

 

Which premise are you questioning? The desire for more build customization and ability to fine tune? I'm not sure why that would even need to be justified given how it fits well within the goals of most other existing systems. I don't see the problem with asking for more options and "toys" to play with. Warframe isn't like a MOBA where balance is in relation to competition, nor is it like single-player games where the balance is there to provide a certain kind of challenge (and most of these only go for "good enough" rather than "perfect balance" anyway). It's more like an MMO where the pattern reads something roughly like: Get stuff, level it up to be stronger, use that stronger stuff to get more stuff to level up, repeat. Challenge has always been a backseat consideration, though one they make some effort to provide, but ultimately the game has succeeded on the back of letting players feel "OP." This is why a small increase in power here or there doesn't really harm the game and in many ways enhances it. Still, I'll address the bolded questions more directly.

1. There is no requirement for the idea to be unique. The question is if it's useful and if people would enjoy it. I believe they would. However, my initial proposal was qualified as "tentative" on purpose, because I'm open to other ideas/suggestions. The whole point of this was just to think about and discuss what would be cool to see added to the game down the road. If people don't want to roll with my suggestion, I'm okay with it. I'm only asking for them to contribute to the discussion instead of simple nay-saying, trolling, derailing, etc.

2. I already touched on this, but I will say that DE has been and is working on more challenging content. That's always been the answer to power creep in MMOs (which this game isn't precisely, but in this area it functionally is). Warframe has been successful because people like to feel OP. Other games are often considered boring because the pursuit of "balance" usually just brings everything down to a dull level.

The first example feels unfair (Company of Heroes 2). The second is the most fun and what Warframe uses. The third is what most competitive games do and why they become boring over time (League of Legends comes to mind).

3. It addresses only two important needs: To keep the game fresh and to provide more customization. I'm not saying this is the only way to do it, but that's why I wanted to have a conversation.

 

A side note to the people still attacking me personally in this thread, please note that I am applying several of the advices given in the last thread and have not attacked anyone in this thread. This thread was meant to loot the body of the last thread for anything of value and leave the horrible garbage on the corpse. I'd appreciate it if you would too. If you don't have anything to add, you don't have to comment. I'm specifically not doing the same things as in the last thread, so please stop with that nonsense.

 

Edited November 1, 2018 by FrostDragoon

[FrostDragoon]

4 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

I think the expectations are reception are similar...As to the rest it doesn't seem like alot of arguing.

I don't agree with some of the more basic premises put forward (I've made my case for why very clear already in the previous thread) but do agree with the idea that new gameplay layers aren't a bad idea.

...My problem with it all regards the notion that as long as you have the existing systems in place there's already someplace for the ones being suggested to be.

I have to partially agree and disagree here. I do think they could use some of the existing systems to implement new features or flesh out some gaps in the existing ones. However, I also see flaws in the existing systems that don't transpose well if you want to add things currently not in game, so it depends on the specifics. The main point of contention I've seen so far is that people are taking overly reductionist stances to the proposals and conflating them with currently existing features even if they are specifically different when you look at the details. Thi is is the problem with generalizing the proposition instead of analyzing it. This is the case with that trolly picture earlier with the mods everywhere. If I just wanted more mod slots, I would have asked for that.

[Rakosta_Kai]

5 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

The main point of contention I've seen so far is that people are taking overly reductionist stances to the proposals and conflating them with currently existing features even if they are specifically different when you look at the details.

That's because they aren't...

Nothing you have mentioned can't be put in another, already existing, system. You need to endeavor to understand that because it has bearing on everything.

Yes, regardless of whatever objections you make...DE can definitely plug +Attributes (of any flavor) in any of the their three existing systems and add any hoops they want to get to them.  

Putting them in a separate system gives players the benefit of both your proposed system and the existing systems.

    In a game where the last argument is about the players being underpowered to the content (even the most recent hard content)...Your idea heaps on more power.

People, imo, are tired of power merely for power's sake.

It doesn't matter what blandishment or narrative you frame your idea inside, it doesn't change it's core... That core is its' premise.

@taiiat hit the nail on the head imo.

That said, I dig the idea of "more options" but not, necessarily, in addition to existing options. "More options" has the ability to create engagement and new ways of doing things.

...I doubt I am alone in that ( I might be though).

The other problem, imo, though is that as long as you feel a need to label, minimize, deride, and dismiss opposing opinions (definitely an improvement over the last thread though) to your ideas it's not actually collaborative.The bulk of your responses to dissenting commentary seems to proceed from the assumption that you are correct and anyone that disagrees with you does so due to lack of understanding.

...That's just my impression though.

[MasterBurik]

6 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

Worthwhile goals...But the bulk of the relevant push-back is occurring from the premise itself.

...So until you solve for those issues with the premise itself you are stuck with the same pushback.

Quote

What makes this idea so unique it can't be placed in any of the three potential systems we already have in place now?

This question concerns me. It seems to imply that the our current systems are designed well enough to handle additional bloat. Like they are infallible. What if a suggestion is laid out to offload portions of the mod system into other areas?

This feeds into:

Quote

How do we countenance a request for more power applied to frames when the general impression is that we are over-powered for the content already?

Can a suggestion put forth the concept that we, the players, should sacrifice a portion of that power now in order to repair or reset aspects of that creep in power we have received over the years? A good plot device, and a new mechanic could do wonders to cover this in-game...and as many forumites like to point out, we don't need the power we possess to complete 90% of Warframe's content.

Quote

What specific needs does this idea address?

But what do we actually need at this point? While forumites provide an excellent microcosm of the community's ideas and beliefs, it is very unlikely that we can draw conclusions as to which group is truly the majority of the entire community. So how do we determine what needs to be addressed, beyond what we, as individuals, believe need to be addressed?

From my point of view @FrostDragoon sees a need for more diversity, particularly in the playstyle of frames. Now, they could have gone with an expansion of mods for frames...but power augments kinda do that already (Augments aren't perfect, or complete...but they fill that role to a "T"). So what other aspects of frames could be tweaked, to provide players with additional opportunities to enhance their favorite frames to fit their preferred style of play a bit better? So FrostDragoon looked at base stats. These core components are how many mods become classified as "mandatory", "niche", "optional" or "worthless" to a particular frame. What if you could tweak some of these stats just enough to change a "mandatory" mod to "optional", or a "worthless" mod to "niche"? Would this be a path worth pursuing? Lo and behold, a concept was born!

If I am incorrect in this portrayal FrostDragoon, apologize. Just a little narrative exposition.

My own belief is that it is time for some serious inner reflection. We can continue to mock ourselves over the power creep we all admit exists, S#&$ting on even DE's creations because of it...or we can admit we have a problem that Tennogen and Fashion Frame will never be able to solve.

These beliefs certainly aren't representative of the entire community, but concepts born from them (and others) are welcomed in this thread. As FrostDragoon pointed out a few times: This thread is meant to be an open forum for all ideas that expand upon our ability to customize and be truly diverse. The sole premise of the thread is that Warframe needs tweaks or changes to promote diversity in builds and playstyles, not that FrostDragoon's (or anyone elses) concept is the be-all-end-all of ideas for such a change.

Beyond a few quips that contain tidbits of potential concepts (and my woefully incomplete suggestion from another thread), the only moderately fleshed out idea I see is from FrostDragoon. Doesn't anyone else have something they've been tossing around in their head, regarding the topic at hand?

Edited November 2, 2018 by MasterBurik

[ShogunGunshow]

Operator martial arts!

[Rakosta_Kai]

1 hour ago, MasterBurik said:

This question concerns me. It seems to imply that the our current systems are designed well enough to handle additional bloat. Like they are infallible. What if a suggestion is laid out to offload portions of the mod system into other areas?

Nope...The question was direct with nothing implied.

The problem both (maybe) you and Frostdragoon have is that you have yet to address it even though it has come from multiple parties now.

...Every time you skate past that question it's proof positive you don't want to answer it imo.

As to the rest, We've seen enough armchair developers shoot through here over the years and most of their ideas tend to stink (at best) or damage the landscape (at worst).

Unless, of course, your armchair is extra special...In which case there are a few NFL teams desperately in need of your assistance. _{The money would be better too.}

1 hour ago, MasterBurik said:

Can a suggestion put forth the concept that we, the players, should sacrifice a portion of that power now in order to repair or reset aspects of that creep in power we have received over the years? A good plot device, and a new mechanic could do wonders to cover this in-game...and as many forumites like to point out, we don't need the power we possess to complete 90% of Warframe's content.

Sure, but you aren't really doing that... So this too is irrelevant.

To date it's been, "Can we get this adjunct system added?" "It can be added to cosmetics, Not to cosmetics, without power deficit, or with it...we just really want this adjunct system added."

...i.e. you just want another system added.

My question hasn't changed...What makes this idea so unique it can't be placed in any of the three potential systems we already have in place now?

1 hour ago, MasterBurik said:

But what do we actually need at this point?...

1 hour ago, MasterBurik said:

From my point of view @FrostDragoon sees a need for more diversity,

 

1 hour ago, MasterBurik said:

My own belief is that it is time for some serious inner reflection.

 

Diversity? We already have it and our current systems are balanced against each other and offer synergies.

Inner Reflection? You did that before you made the decision to log in today. You will do it in February in deciding whether to get Anthem or not. 

My questions were specific and designed to determine if the premise put forth was redundant or not.

If you can specifically answer them you will answer whether or not they are redundant.

This is because that is how most of the playerbase already sees it...As a system that was tried, discarded, refined, and re-introduced.

...This push-back you two(?) are getting to your idea regard that specifically.

So what makes it not redundant?

If it is redundant... Why can't you ask for the idea to go in those other places instead where they are gated from being unchecked power additions?

Even the Helminth (an idea I like) is really just an adjunct... And there are many who will never want to use it because the Infested theme doesn't appeal to them.

Sure it can be improved upon, but the ideas expressed by you two so far are adjuncts to the existing landscape offering little in the way of trade-offs to allow for comparative balance (doing the same things in different ways) which truly allows for the system suggested to be an incomparable...It's just extra.

Truth told, there is nothing you guys have put forward that couldn't as easily be found in additional versions of the POE line of stacking mods...With the only difference being that DE would maintain more controls over power thresholds and trade-offs than what you guys have suggested.

...Though, to be fair, the narrative you present (Helminth) is much more nifty.

 

Hopefully, I hit all the high spots in your replies without being too verbose.

Edited November 2, 2018 by Padre_Akais

[(PSN)watt4hem]

https://m.wikihow.com/Develop-Common-Sense?amp=1

 

Some people should not be given access to the internet. For their sake and yours.

Edited November 3, 2018 by (PS4)watt4hem

[MasterBurik]

3 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

Nope...The question was direct with nothing implied.

The problem both (maybe) you and Frostdragoon have is that you have yet to address it even though it has come from multiple parties now.

...Every time you skate past that question it's proof positive you don't want to answer it imo.

Afaik, I have not been party to this particular issue. That being said, I would be happy to expand upon it in regards to a concept of my own design. It would take some time to develop something around the Helminth concept...but it could be done.

Quote

To date it's been, "Can we get this adjunct system added?" "It can be added to cosmetics, Not to cosmetics, without power deficit, or with it...we just really want this adjunct system added."

...i.e. you just want another system added.

Please do not attribute things to me, just because I have chosen not to pile on the same criticisms plenty of other users have provided to FrostDragoon's concept. Instead, I provided my own list of concerns on their design in a previous post. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe I've mentioned a personal desire for a new system. From what I recall, I've tossed a few ideas into a few threads, and alluded to a belief that our current system has some noticeable flaws. I'd be just as happy to see a expansion of our current systems, so long as they actually provided choices of substance beyond "Want a challenge? Gimp yourself!"

4 hours ago, MasterBurik said:

This question concerns me. It seems to imply that the our current systems are designed well enough to handle additional bloat. Like they are infallible. What if a suggestion is laid out to offload portions of the mod system into other areas.

Quote

Can a suggestion put forth the concept that we, the players, should sacrifice a portion of that power now in order to repair or reset aspects of that creep in power we have received over the years? A good plot device, and a new mechanic could do wonders to cover this in-game...and as many forumites like to point out, we don't need the power we possess to complete 90% of Warframe's content.

These were but mere suggestions to potential avenues others may follow in the pursuit of their own ideas. As mentioned previously, that appears to be the core premise of this thread.

 

3 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

Diversity? We already have it and our current systems are balanced against each other and offer synergies.

I'll leave this to @FrostDragoon, if I was indeed correct in my assessment.

Quote

Inner Reflection? You did that before you made the decision to log in today. You will do it in February in deciding whether to get Anthem or not. 

You seem to have missed the context in which that phrase was utilized. Even so, why do you assume I made a conscious choice to log in? Or that I took any time to determine why I did so? I didn't even think about that action until now. It just "occurred". I'm not particularly introspective when I cross the street either, as it would hinder my ability to pay attention to any oncoming traffic.

Quote

My questions were specific and designed to determine if the premise put forth was redundant or not.

If you can specifically answer them you will answer whether or not they are redundant.

This is because that is how most of the playerbase already sees it...As a system that was tried, discarded, refined, and re-introduced.

...This push-back you two(?) are getting to your idea regard that specifically.

So what makes it not redundant?

If it is redundant... Why can't you ask for the idea to go in those other places instead where they are gated from being unchecked power additions?

Even the Helminth (an idea I like) is really just an adjunct... And there are many who will never want to use it because the Infested theme doesn't appeal to them.

Sure it can be improved upon, but the ideas expressed by you two so far are adjuncts to the existing landscape offering little in the way of trade-offs to allow for comparative balance (doing the same things in different ways) which truly allows for the system suggested to be an incomparable...It's just extra.

Truth told, there is nothing you guys have put forward that couldn't as easily be found in additional versions of the POE line of stacking mods...With the only difference being that DE would maintain more controls over power thresholds and trade-offs than what you guys have suggested.

...Though, to be fair, the narrative you present (Helminth) is much more nifty.

 

Hopefully, I hit all the high spots in your replies without being too verbose.

Thus far I haven't posited anything in regards to the Helminth blurb I posted in a previous thread. FrostDragoon placed it in the OP without my knowledge. I found this new thread much like I did his previous one: I clicked a random thread, and began to read.

And I would hope that you see that FrostDragoon and I are separate entities with separate ideas and beliefs. I even provided them with constructive criticism regarding their "Armor Orb" concept, some of which appear to be quite similar to your own concerns.

[Rakosta_Kai]

5 hours ago, MasterBurik said:

Afaik, I have not been party to this particular issue. That being said, I would be happy to expand upon it in regards to a concept of my own design. It would take some time to develop something around the Helminth concept...but it could be done.

I think that, for best effect, it will be best received in an entirely different thread.

...just my opinion.

5 hours ago, MasterBurik said:

Please do not attribute things to me, just because I have chosen not to pile on the same criticisms plenty of other users have provided to FrostDragoon's concept. Instead, I provided my own list of concerns on their design in a previous post.

Then please give me the same courtesy... My commentary in this section was bland because it applied to both of your ideas in this and the last thread.

 

5 hours ago, MasterBurik said:

You seem to have missed the context in which that phrase was utilized. Even so, why do you assume I made a conscious choice to log in? Or that I took any time to determine why I did so? I didn't even think about that action until now. It just "occurred". I'm not particularly introspective when I cross the street either, as it would hinder my ability to pay attention to any oncoming traffic.

Time is the most valuable commodity you have...One hopes you are making conscious and conscientious use of it...Even in leisure pursuits.

But to your statement...No, I didn't misunderstand the context.

My assertion is that if the problems with this game are so annoying, the option to choose to play other games still exists.

5 hours ago, MasterBurik said:

And I would hope that you see that FrostDragoon and I are separate entities with separate ideas and beliefs. I even provided them with constructive criticism regarding their "Armor Orb" concept, some of which appear to be quite similar to your own concerns.

I see two posters.

Just as the Doctor is always distinctly different, I have to accept and operate from the assumption that the two of you are as well.

 

[MasterBurik]

44 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

I think that, for best effect, it will be best received in an entirely different thread.

...just my opinion.

Based on the current state of this thread, I concur. Perhaps I will at some point in the future.

Quote

Then please give me the same courtesy... My commentary in this section was bland because it applied to both of your ideas in this and the last thread.

My apologies.

Quote

But to your statement...No, I didn't misunderstand the context.

My assertion is that if the problems with this game are so annoying, the option to choose to play other games still exists.

That option is available for everyone. That we choose to continue is meaningful in itself.

[IntheCoconut]

Seeing that Fortuna is a continuation of what we've seen in PoE, what about craftable armor? Zaws that serve the purpose of armor? I haven't done much in PoE myself (returning players, just got into PoE) so I don't know how well-liked the current system is, but I suspect players used it enough if DE is bringing it over to Venus.

[FrostDragoon]

Haven't caught up to all the replies yet, but this is definitely correct.

Quote

From my point of view @FrostDragoon sees a need for more diversity, particularly in the playstyle of frames. Now, they could have gone with an expansion of mods for frames...but power augments kinda do that already (Augments aren't perfect, or complete...but they fill that role to a "T"). So what other aspects of frames could be tweaked, to provide players with additional opportunities to enhance their favorite frames to fit their preferred style of play a bit better? So FrostDragoon looked at base stats. These core components are how many mods become classified as "mandatory", "niche", "optional" or "worthless" to a particular frame. What if you could tweak some of these stats justenough to change a "mandatory" mod to "optional", or a "worthless" mod to "niche"? Would this be a path worth pursuing? Lo and behold, a concept was born!

If I am incorrect in this portrayal FrostDragoon, apologize. Just a little narrative exposition.

No need to apologize for correct representation of what was said. In fact, I thank you for it.

[FrostDragoon]

18 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

That's because they aren't...

Nothing you have mentioned can't be put in another, already existing, system. You need to endeavor to understand that because it has bearing on everything.

Yes, regardless of whatever objections you make...DE can definitely plug +Attributes (of any flavor) in any of the their three existing systems and add any hoops they want to get to them.  

You keep coming back to this, but haven't put forth a good reason we should assume the premise of this argument either. We fundamentally disagree on this point, and you haven't provided anything that persuades me to change my mind on it. I've addressed why I don't think it's valid, and MasterBurik laid it out as clearly as it could be:

16 hours ago, MasterBurik said:

This question concerns me. It seems to imply that the our current systems are designed well enough to handle additional bloat. Like they are infallible.

Further, you could make that argument about any system in the game, including mods, but I've said from the start that the reason I don't think it fits into those systems is that they are either already over-saturated (like mods) or the design concepts around them aren't compatible for what I'm suggesting (Focus/Arcanes). They *could* try to shoehorn them in, but ultimately I believe it would just cause those systems to be over-saturated.

As for your continued argument about if it increases power, you are attempting to paint me in the minority while speaking for the majority, but I happen to know that there's a personality type difference that segregates the type of people who are willing to frequently use forums and those that aren't--meaning the forums don't represent the whole and are only partially a microcosm of it. To that effect, let's try our best to speak for ourselves, yes? We fundamentally disagree that power creep is an issue, and the reasons for the difference are irreconcilable as far as I can tell. Therefore, it's pointless to bring up and doesn't constitute a valid argument or criticism of the systems themselves. It's analogous to the Creationism vs Evolution argument; if you fundamentally don't believe in theism, there's not much to say to a theist. (I'm not implying you're on one side of that or the other, only that the argument is pointless.)

So in order for your criticisms of the proposed system as transposable to existing systems to be valid, you would have to demonstrate that doing so wouldn't create the very problems within those systems that I would like to avoid by having this be independent from them.

Edited November 2, 2018 by FrostDragoon

[Rakosta_Kai]

14 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

You keep coming back to this, but haven't put forth a good reason we should assume the premise of this argument either. We fundamentally disagree on this point, and you haven't provided anything that persuades me to change my mind on it. I've addressed why I don't think it's valid, and MasterBurik laid it out as clearly as it could be:

I keep coming back to this because you keep not answering it.

Quoting @MasterBurik doesn't help in this instance because it wasn't answered then either.

Spoiler

 

 Just between you, me, and the fence post... Please stop doing that armchair developer thing by regaling me with how you could have designed the game better.

I do not care because I am not playing your game.

...Neither, for that matter, are you.

 

The pushback you are getting to your idea regards your idea's premise.

Your premise is a redundant adjunct that could be put in any number of existing systems we have in place now...Each of which offering more control than the idea you have put forward.

58 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

Further, you could make that argument about any system in the game, including mods, but I've said from the start that the reason I don't think it fits into those systems is that they are either already over-saturated (like mods) or the design concepts around them aren't compatible for what I'm suggesting (Focus/Arcanes). They *could* try to shoehorn them in, but ultimately I believe it would just cause those systems to be over-saturated.

You mean *can*... They can add them it into any of their existing systems with more control and forcing the player to make decisions regarding trade-offs.

...Aspects of saturation are irrelevant because it's speculative on your part.

1 hour ago, FrostDragoon said:

As for your continued argument about if it increases power, you are attempting to paint me in the minority while speaking for the majority, but I happen to know that there's a personality type difference that segregates the type of people who are willing to frequently use forums and those that aren't--meaning the forums don't represent the whole and are only partially a microcosm of it. To that effect, let's try out best to speak for ourselves, yes? 

Umm Nope...I don't have any paint bud.

Additionally, begging the question doesn't help in this case either... We shouldn't assume your idea is good because everyone in the game isn't here to tell you it's bad.

As to me speaking for myself? I didn't know I wasn't (I'm the only one in me) Perhaps, you should consider taking your own advice.

  Asking to have something added for yourself, that others do not want and see no value in, still means they have to contend with it.

Which is why your premise keeps getting push-back.

1 hour ago, FrostDragoon said:

We fundamentally disagree that power creep is an issue, and the reasons for the difference are irreconcilable as far as I can tell. Therefore, it's pointless to bring up and doesn't constitute a valid argument or criticism of the systems themselves. It's analogous to the Creationism vs Evolution argument; if you fundamentally don't believe in theism, there's not much to say to a theist. (I'm not implying you're on one side of that or the other, only that the argument is pointless.)

What we do know is that this game does not have an issue with challenge to the player due to lack of power.

How do we know this?

• It's been a constant source of complaint here for years (Anecdotal)
• DE has informed us of as much (Factual)

As to our "fundamental disagreement" on powercreep?...You don't know what I think about powercreep because I haven't told you.

19 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

Putting them in a separate system gives players the benefit of both your proposed system and the existing systems.

    In a game where the last argument is about the players being underpowered to the content (even the most recent hard content)...Your idea heaps on more power.

...Is merely a statement of fact.

Darn near everyone who bothered to post told you that it was unwelcome...Go figure.

1 hour ago, FrostDragoon said:

So in order for your criticisms of the proposed system as transposable to existing systems to be valid, you would have to demonstrate that doing so wouldn't create the very problems within those systems that I would like to avoid by having this be independent from them.

Well, I don't have to...

But the difference between us is, in this respect, is that I actually can and, in fact, already have.

...I did it in this post.

...I did it in the post you quoted.

...I did it the other thread that got locked.

Can't find it? CTRL F  the word "control".

Yours doesn't offer it...it's an adjunct...It has, in your own words, no downsides.

[FrostDragoon]

I feel like you're either not understanding what I'm saying or are intentionally ignoring it. I'm heavily leaning toward the latter because you show yourself to be literate enough that it's hard to believe it's the former. I've answered your premise. MasterBurik has too. I don't believe the argument you believe you have is valid and you still haven't made a good case for it. I don't think there's much I can say to you about it as long as you hold on to it (see theism analogy). Sorry, dude.

[MasterBurik]

2 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

I feel like you're either not understanding what I'm saying or are intentionally ignoring it. I'm heavily leaning toward the latter because you show yourself to be literate enough that it's hard to believe it's the former. I've answered your premise. MasterBurik has too. I don't believe the argument you believe you have is valid and you still haven't made a good case for it. I don't think there's much I can say to you about it as long as you hold on to it (see theism analogy). Sorry, dude.

While I may have responded to the questions provided by  @Padre_Akais, I did not answer the premise behind them. I had no need to, as I did not supply an idea with enough substance to posit those questions. My responses only provided potential trains of thought others may follow in the pursuit to actually answer them.

[FrostDragoon]

Fair enough, but it still stands. When the question of the premise is flipped back around, he had the same kind of answer he kept accusing me of. That's why I said that as long as he wants to hold on to problems I don't consider to be real, there's not really a way from us (he and I) to discuss the merits of the ideas in the thread.

Edited November 3, 2018 by FrostDragoon