Riven Diposition's dynamic nature should be pointed out as often as possible by the game, in-game

[Artekkor]

Recent riven disposition adjustment has caused quiet a lot of controversy. Some people hate it, some love it (me, for example).

However i noticed a certain pattern in the negative comments about it: people were taken off-guard by riven disposition adjustment - by the possibility that its even a thing that could happen.
Somehow, this was a very big surprise for them, a real gut-puncher. And while i would argue that its somewhat on their fault (for not knowing it), i also have to say that its absolutely the game's fault for not being clear enough about.

Rivens were bestowed on us from nowhere. One day they just appeared as a thing, and the game barely tells you anything about them. Hell, until the recent update i didn't know that they were made by some Cephalon, instead - judging by the fact that i got my very first riven from The War Within - i thought that they come from the void or something.

Since then, the game did nothing to improve the general population's knowledge and understanding of the riven disposition system. From my personal experience - there's nothing inside the game that explains directly the purpose of rivens (allow weak / unpopular guns to stop collecting dust) and does not mentions how riven disposition works. Particularly - and most importantly - it does not mention that its dynamic and can be adjusted.
You will not know anything about it unless you are very engaged with the developers - watch devstreams, read forums, etc.

I think that understanding of the system is a very important part of this whole deal and it should be adressed.
The best course of action would be to have some kind of very noticable reminder (not some small text in the corner) every time the player opens his rivens collection / decides to roll it / decides to make a trade that involves a riven that reminds him:

1. The developers' intended purpose of them.
2. That riven disposition is a dynamic system - therefore ANY actions taken around the riven system (time, kuva and platinum investment) has an element of risk to it.

People MUST know what they're signing up for here.
I've already seen a couple of tin-foil hat worthy theories that DE are some kind of evil masterminds playing with platinum exchanges between the players. The worst part is that they have a point as long as the game forgets (hopefully - not deliberately) to mention the risks involved.

So... Yeah. Riven system is one hell of a big ball that you can't just drop like that.

[Genitive]

Not telling about adjustments was on purpose.

On 2018-11-08 at 9:24 PM, [DE]Connor said:

Releasing these changes without warning is our way of discouraging market exploitation, which may have occurred if some players knew change was coming, while players who didn’t visit the Forums would be unaware.

But I agree with the rest. Rivens are not very well introduced and there should be more info on them in game.

[Me.KayOh]

5 minutes ago, Genitive said:

Not telling about adjustments was on purpose.

But I agree with the rest. Rivens are not very well introduced and there should be more info on them in game.

This.

 

Also, there was alot of Noise regarding riven disposition and people wanting/not wanting changes to the disposition of certain weapons. Alot of noise. So yea. I saw it coming. Alot of people saw it coming. But I still agree that, now DE has changed it once, that they should now provide that info to people, that riven dispositions are subject to change at any point in time, given the nature of the game's weapon systems in efforts to readjust balances etc. As well as provide more general information about it. We could have Cephalon Samodeus teach these things in a sort of riven tutorial.

[KennBone]

im personally will give a disposition 3 maybe 2.5 to ALL rivens for every weapon. ( yes dispo 3 rock too ) so u can have a litle boost of weapons u like and we remove the problem. Just personal opinion.

[Robolaser]

Well constructed post, and i couldn't agree more.

Edited November 9, 2018 by Robolaser

[Nez-Kal]

Meanwhile, I'm over here being butt-hurt, NOT because they changed all the weapons Dispositions (for Better or for Worse) as they SAID they'd do before, but because they DIDN'T nerf the Kohm's Disposition at all because "That would ruin some people's Rivens, and we couldn't do that".
 

ALL of them, or NONE of them, DE. Don't personally undermine your own system.

Edited November 9, 2018 by Tangent-Valley

[Artekkor]

1 час назад, Genitive сказал:

Not telling about adjustments was on purpose.

But I agree with the rest. Rivens are not very well introduced and there should be more info on them in game.

One clarification: not telling about WHEN adjustment happens and WHICH ONES. And i'm mostly okay with that.

Im talking about the fact that adjustment CAN, IN FACT, HAPPEN. Because i see that's something the game fails to mention often enough, and something people didn't know about / didn't wanted to think about, hence why people thought (mistakenly) that their 5000 platinum riven purchase is 100% risk-proof transaction. Which it isn't.

[Artekkor]

1 час назад, Tangent-Valley сказал:

Meanwhile, I'm over here being butt-hurt, NOT because they changed all the weapons Dispositions (for Better or for Worse) as they SAID they'd do before, but because they DIDN'T nerf the Kohm's Disposition at all because "That would ruin some people's Rivens, and we couldn't do that".
 

ALL of them, or NONE of them, DE. Don't personally undermine your own system.

Sure enough. Nobody likes hypocrites... Although i wish to know more. Why do you think it should be nerfed? Is it that bad? I dont remember when was the last time i saw kohm, ever.

I mean its probably justified if the only people who use kohm are the riven users... Unless they actually secretly have the best weapon in the game, in which case - yeah, lowered disposition would be justified. Probably...

[(PSN)ZeroSection]

Yeah the lore is definitely non-existent around Rivens.  I had no idea a Cephalon made them until today.

I always thought Rivens should have a Dynamic algorithm which would change the Dispositions daily/weekly etc.

[Nez-Kal]

1 minute ago, Artek94 said:

Sure enough. Nobody likes hypocrites... Although i wish to know more. Why do you think it should be nerfed? Is it that bad? I dont remember when was the last time i saw kohm, ever.

I mean its probably justified if the only people who use kohm are the riven users... Unless they actually secretly have the best weapon in the game, in which case - yeah, lowered disposition would be justified. Probably...

Because this:

On 2018-11-08 at 2:24 PM, [DE]Connor said:

Wanted to clear up one comment I'm seeing lots of. Many of you have mentioned the Kohm as well as Detron - These weapons were marked for a reduction, but we opted not to change them, because some players depend on these Rivens to achieve 100% status chance. Because of this, small disposition changes had the chance to make a much larger impact on these weapons, so we have left them as is. 

They cherry picked a crowd, and basically told them "You're the Untouchable Meta now. Go out there, and don't fear the consequences everyone else has too!"

[Artekkor]

5 минут назад, Tangent-Valley сказал:

Because this:

 

They cherry picked a crowd, and basically told them "You're the Untouchable Meta now. Go out there, and don't fear the consequences everyone else has too!"

I don't think  that's what they meant. I think what they meant is that: these particular disposition changes were meant to be SMALL. That adjustment didn't made as much impact as the outrage makes it out to be. Yeah, my Sicarus and Rubico rivens got nerfed... But its still good enough. Was +150% crit chance, became +120%... Like, whatever, its still usable.

They were afraid that by changing disposition on those 2 particular guns they would have a FAR more powerful effect. Like, the riven would go from "good" to "absolutely worthless" and they didn't wanted to do that now. Maybe they'll do it later when they're ready to make bigger changes.

Although im afraid they wont, with the outrage that came... And that's when they adjusted rivens SLIGHTLY. Imagine if they would just cut in half the rubico rivens (which they probably deserve to be). There would be a goddamn murder... I feel bad for devs, i really do.

Edited November 9, 2018 by Artek94

[Tiltskillet]

19 hours ago, Artek94 said:

Recent riven disposition adjustment has caused quiet a lot of controversy. Some people hate it, some love it (me, for example).

However i noticed a certain pattern in the negative comments about it: people were taken off-guard by riven disposition adjustment - by the possibility that its even a thing that could happen.
Somehow, this was a very big surprise for them, a real gut-puncher. And while i would argue that its somewhat on their fault (for not knowing it), i also have to say that its absolutely the game's fault for not being clear enough about.  . . .

/agree

I mean, people should know everything in the game is subject to change.  And I'm a cynic, so I'd expect some of the people pleading ignorance would either still be ignorant or would  find other justifications for their anger.

But in this case, where changes are part of the plan, saying "Watch out!  These stats are probably going to change!" right on the box is really just due diligence on DE's part.  And the right thing to do.

 

[Bl00dRedRage]

It would also be good if they updated the dispositions on a consistent schedule, such as quarterly. People knowing when to expect changes would help a lot because letting the rivens sit untouched for over a year really made people complacent. 

[(XBOX)Purdue Wolf]

I agree with the change of riven changes, but disagree with the knowledge of knowing when or what rivens will be changed in order to control market trolls.

When you see or hear about players collecting 90 rivens or more, one reason was to prepare for when the riven apocalypse occured.

Now if DE does state when, but not what is going to change in disposition that could be good.

Finally, I think if there is weapon that everyone wants to be changed to a positive disposition; for ex. Lanka or Opticor stop using those weapons for awhile and use something else in order to increase disposition.

[MagischerPilZ]

I thought until that Patch that the riven disposition is controlled by a algorithm Oo
Like 90% playerbase use gun X so diposition will slowly drop to 1 - 1,5...
Perhabs that would be a better solution as manually patch this things....

But yeah the first thing that should be done is to make it, ingame, clear that rivens can be changed over time
and that in its core mechanic its there to buff weapons that aren't "meta".

[Naqel]

On 2018-11-09 at 10:56 PM, Genitive said:

Rivens are not very well introduced and there should be more info on them in game.

Rivens should not have been introduced at all. Random mod stats were removed from the game once already, except this time their hands are tied due to trading monetization.

[Artekkor]

47 минут назад, Naqel сказал:

Rivens should not have been introduced at all. Random mod stats were removed from the game once already, except this time their hands are tied due to trading monetization.

Well, don't know... I liked the idea from the begining, seeing how i'm more into my own niche-like guns that nobody elses uses.

I mean... What's the alternative? I really want to have something that allows my Karak to fight on par with monsters like Soma Prime or even Braton prime. What's the alternative to randomised rivens? Allow us to just straight up upgrade stats on those guns forever? Like "this gun is S#&$, you can pay 11.000.000 credits or someS#&$ to upgrade all stats by +25%, you can do it 3 times because that's how S#&$ this gun is".

Edited November 11, 2018 by Artek94

[Naqel]

4 minutes ago, Artek94 said:

I mean... What's the alternative?

The correct thing, was to never create balance monsters like Soma in the first place. That would have required foresight (which I tried to provide over the years) and discipline, neither of which DE has any, getting high on their pet project's independent success after so many turn-downs in the past.

The acceptable thing would have been to keep up the work on Syndicate mods. They fell a bit short initially, and the Syndicate blasts were a dumb idea, but at least it was a targeted solution with reliable accessibility. This however, would require effort, which DE decided is better placed elsewhere or the gameplay people are simply incapable of.

The last ditch acceptable solution, would be to make Rivens universal, and use the disposition as the sole defining feature, i.e.: you only need one riven, and it's the weapon it is placed upon that determine the stats, not the weapon it is meant for. This would at least look good from the 'player-facing' side, but it would require generosity, a lack of which DE has perfectly displayed by "improving" the new player experience with the introduction of damaged mods and mk-1 weapons.

[Artekkor]

56 минут назад, Naqel сказал:

The correct thing, was to never create balance monsters like Soma in the first place. That would have required foresight (which I tried to provide over the years) and discipline, neither of which DE has any, getting high on their pet project's independent success after so many turn-downs in the past.

The acceptable thing would have been to keep up the work on Syndicate mods. They fell a bit short initially, and the Syndicate blasts were a dumb idea, but at least it was a targeted solution with reliable accessibility. This however, would require effort, which DE decided is better placed elsewhere or the gameplay people are simply incapable of.

The last ditch acceptable solution, would be to make Rivens universal, and use the disposition as the sole defining feature, i.e.: you only need one riven, and it's the weapon it is placed upon that determine the stats, not the weapon it is meant for. This would at least look good from the 'player-facing' side, but it would require generosity, a lack of which DE has perfectly displayed by "improving" the new player experience with the introduction of damaged mods and mk-1 weapons.

I'm not sure what you're saying. Correct me if im wrong - i think you are saying that you are generally against the idea of power progression. That guns should not be that much different and should be generally the same performance wise?

[Naqel]

12 minutes ago, Artek94 said:

That guns should not be that much different and should be generally the same performance wise?

Isn't that what you want?

1 hour ago, Artek94 said:

I really want to have something that allows my Karak to fight on par with monsters like Soma Prime or even Braton prime.

What difference does it make how your end goal is achieved?

We could have had proper balance, we got Riven Mods instead. DE lacked the foresight, discipline, and resolve to do the right thing from the start, or at least course-correct when it was still possible.
Now we have the ignorants in the community, that wanted bigger and shinier toys, complaining about something that was in bold red letters written on the label: "We might change the numbers sometimes... in both directions."

Edited November 11, 2018 by Naqel

[Artekkor]

10 часов назад, Naqel сказал:

Isn't that what you want?

What difference does it make how your end goal is achieved?

We could have had proper balance, we got Riven Mods instead. DE lacked the foresight, discipline, and resolve to do the right thing from the start, or at least course-correct when it was still possible.

Hm. Fair point actually...

Unfortunately the game has gone too far away from that ideal world.

Also i have the need to partially protect the power progression of the game. If all guns were the same there would be no reason to use anything past braton, paris, vulkar, hek and  skana.
I can absolutely see the point of power progression as player-engaging mechanic.

Its simply that people like me get stuck with kraken and grakata on their mind. Rivens might not have been the perfect solution but hey - they're a solution still. One  that i doubt DE will just cut out. So we'll have to  live around it somehow.

[Naqel]

9 hours ago, Artek94 said:

If all guns were the same there would be no reason to use anything past braton, paris, vulkar, hek and  skana.

This is once again a case of balancing and distributing things correctly.

Progression is already partially tied to mods, there's nothing wrong with ALL power progression being about the mods, and the "fun" progression being about getting the zany "explodes on headshot" ones.

I gave Destiny 2 a shot when they gave it out for free, and the way progression works there is absolutely phenomenal! There's less cool things to do, but they feel immensely more meaningful, and if I like a weapon I can just boost it to match the power level of the content I'll be using it in(and taking a stronger weapon doesn't break the balance of lower-level content).

Edited November 12, 2018 by Naqel

[Buttaface]

Agree with OP totally. More importantly IMO, the game should disclose to new and intermediate players early and often that rivens are in no way, shape, form required or even particularly important to do ANY content in the game. This disclosure should be hammered because it's very easy for newer players to hop on trade chat, see rivens, see all the riven hype, and think they are necessary gear for parts of a very broad game they haven't played yet.

Not only are they not necessary, they simply do not affect the overall damage picture in the game very much. WF is not a tiered gear game or a hard game, and newer players from other games without knowledge of what's coming get a mistaken impression. DE really needs to address this, as I've seen dozens of new players since rivens came out thinking they are far more important to being good at WF than they are.

Then when new-intermediate players get the idea that rivens are more important than they are, they come here and make near infinite whining threads about all aspects of rivens. Bleh. DE could fix this and should.

Edited November 15, 2018 by Buttaface