Gunplay needs a upgrade

[(PSN)CommanderRadec81]

Do you guys think it's time for DE update and polish the gunplay the game currently has after melee 3.0? Because the gunplay right now is mediocre at best even for a TPS that it needs updating on many categories like animated muzzle flashes,firing animations and sounds,recoil animations,reload animations and adding a mechanic like Titanfall 2's segmented reloads and be able to cancel a reload with the reload button and reload sounds,aiming animations,visual impacts that make it easy to tell if your shots hit a enemy,bullet casings/shotgun shells ejection animations and sounds,and sounds for those bullet casings hitting the ground,adding a white/grey hitmarker and sound if enemies aren't taking damage etc.

Extra:Add a option to disable the hitmarker separately because I just want to disable the damage numbers and affinity numbers but the current option disables all three. Add a option to disable gear name(warframe name,weapon name,companion name etc.) from HUD during a mission for less unnecessary clutter on the screen. Lanka needs a new design:

1/30//2019 Update:

Strafe Shooting(the ability to strafe from left to right and backwards while firing from the hip,is interrupted by moving forward & that sprint toggle doesn't cancel it will just speed you up depending on your sprint speed stat), the game basically has this mechanic with the atmosphere arch-guns but it's currently floaty that animations need polish mainly the leg movement and expand this mechanic to the primaries and secondaries,be able to jump and roll to different sides(left,right and back) while strafing is active and that the AI can use it as well.Example(skip to 0:45 just look at the character's leg movement):

Add Sprint Shooting(the ability to still maintain your sprint speed and momentum while shooting from the hip,aiming and in the air) currently shooting while sprinting will slow down and break the flow of speed with a janky animation that doesn't smoothly transition to the sprint animation that needs smoothing out and to take notes by using Titanfall,Quake,Doom,Unreal Tournament and Dusk as examples.Expand this by being able to shoot,reload,weapon swap,melee and ability cast while wall running,gliding,sliding and sliding/running on zip lines.

Extra:Let my warframe be able to crouch walk with sprint toggle on as long I hold the crouch button. Tune down or remove the camera shake used as recoil when firing weapons especially when hip firing and when in co-op because it still shakes even with the camera shake option turned off. Give a proper turn around animation like the one used in the Nekros Prime trailer because their is no animation you just spin around while standing in place. (skip to 0:18)

1/31/2019 Update:

Ammo 2.0: The ammo economy needs improvement because of unnecessary clutter,confusing for new players and weapon balance is out of control that weapons either never run out of ammo or run out of ammo too quickly even with ammo mutation.How to fix it?

• Remove shotgun and sniper ammo and just have primary,secondary and heavy ammo
• Remove shotgun,sniper, and bow ammo mutation mods and turn the rifle ammo mutation mod into a universal primary ammo mod
• Add a new stat: APR(Ammo Pick-up Rate)- a stat that determines how much ammo you get per ammo box(example:Braton gets 50 while Tigris Prime gets 4) and is effected by ammo mutation mods and the stat is visible on the stats screen
• Add MAC(Max Ammo Capacity) to the stats screen
• Archwing missions should not drop ammo since you have infinite ammo
• Misson with the melee only modifier should not drop ammo
• Add new ammo pick-up sounds for primary,secondary and heavy ammo to make it easier to tell which one you picked up
• Add new ammo mutation sounds make it easier to tell which ammo was converted

Weapon swap 2.0: Why dose this need change? Because Its slow,clunky,breaks the flow of combat and movement,causes players to only use high damage/meta weapons and creates a bad habit for both new and old players to stick to only using one weapon in missions instead of doing more fun and creative ways to complete them with all weapons and that this just is bad game design and just an excuse for the banaid mods to exist. How to fix this issue?

• Remove the delay(the time it takes for the game commit the action) this happens even in solo even tho I have good internet and it's especially an issue in co-op that the game could randomly won't swap,finally swap after 3 mins or get stuck in the animation
• increase the base swap speed to 1 second
• Use teleportation based weapon swap by reusing the "invisible when holstered" animation by using Ratchet & Clank series,Vanquish,Nier:Automata and Kingdom Hearts 3 as examples mainly the arm movement. Example at 0:30-0:32 shown in video below:

 

• No longer resets or interrupted by aiming,rolling,knockdown,jumping,bullet jumping,ground slamming,sliding,wall running,sprinting,sliding,zip line movement,one handed ability casting,hard landing and gliding & that weapon swap can be while doing these actions mentioned
• No longer cancels gliding and wall running
• Can cancel melee combos and be able to continue your combo by swapping back within a 2-3 second window similar to Bayonetta
• Can cancel the swap by quickly pressing the swap button or reloading before the swap is complete 
• Items like a datamass no longer drops from your hand unless swapping to primary
• While melee is equipped, tap to swap to secondary(swaps to primary instead if out of ammo or no secondary is equipped in your loadout) and hold to swap to primary 
• While dual wielding(secondary & melee),swapping to melee your warframe keep the melee weapon in their hand and holster the secondary by teleporting it out of the warframe's hand at the same time
• While melee is equipped, swapping to dual wielding(secondary & melee) your warframe will keep the melee in their hand use their other hand to move get the secondary to teleport to their hand like mentioned above
• Add new weapon swap sounds to indicate which weapon you swapped to
• Improve the "invisible when holstered" animation by adding particle effects and fix the glitch were the weapon reappears after the animation for a second and then disappears out of fine air

Accuracy needs to go.Why? Because It makes every weapon feel the same no matter the stat,takes away any chance for players to learn to use the weapon and become better at using it,annoying to control because it's random,makes the reticule useless,makes enemies artificially difficult that they scale to the point of becoming aimbots and doesn't work well with movement & the fast paced combat.How to fix this problem?

• Give each weapon their own spread pattern that is consistent not random and that it stays within the reticule
• Give each weapon class their own reticule mostly using circles
• Have the new reticules be dynamic having them change while sprinting and be able to widen and tighten to give visual representation of the spread
• Update the sniper scopes to be less over-designed and distracting
• Add a reticule color and transparency options in the options menu
• Add a new hit-marker(white or grey) and sound that indicates that the enemy isn't taking damage 
• Have the dot only appear when aiming at a enemy and that it's yellow when aiming at the body and red when aiming at the head
• Remove it and hitscan from enemies and make their ranged attacks be projectiles with different visuals,size, and speed like in bullet hell games like for example Nier:Automata,Strikers 1945 and Wyrmius & be able destroy them by shooting,melee attacks or parry(improve this by adding a parry window of 2-3 seconds after pressing the block button that will parry all attacks during it because you are going to fighting multiple enemies from every direction all at the same time)

Extra:Add a "wake up" mechanic used mostly in fighting games that gives the player the ability to recover from knockdowns and stuns quickly by player input during gameplay without breaking the flow of combat and without taking away control from the player & without begin forced to use a bandaid because that is just lazy game design. The player is given a window to recover from a knockdown before hitting the ground by pressing the jump button at the right time and if done right the warframe will do a back flip-like animation & the operator will teleport and be given knockdown immunity for 3 seconds. If the player fails to do it right,they can still recover by pressing the jump button rapidly to force the warframe/operator to get back up without having the player be to wait and that this recovery animation is based off of Loki doing it in an old trailer(skip to 1:11):

While the player is stunned, the player can force the warframe/operator to get out of it by pressing the melee attack button rapidly and be given stun immunity for 2 seconds. Add the ammo boxes as Orbiter & Dojo decorations.

2/4/2019 Update:

Add Masterwork(the ability to upgrade weapons with better stats but at the cost of higher mastery rank requirement): This will be used to bring lower MR weapons to scale to be endgame worthy but this can't be done because DE needs to address issues like RNG damage boosts(Crit chance & multi shot),player & enemy health/damage values & scaling,Operator 2.0,Focus 3.0,Amps 2.0,level design,enemy design & variety,boss design,artificial difficulty,Ability casting 2.0,AI,Shields 2.0,Mods 2.0,Rivens 2.0,Auras 2.0,scaling rewards but my solutions for these are very WIP that I need civil and constructive feedback.

2/5/2019 Update:

Reload times in Warframe need some adjustments that they are balanced around the fast paced combat so that they aren't too slow or too fast making the gunplay feel better,smoother and look good.How?It's simple really:

• Primaries and Arch-guns are balanced around 2.5 seconds max 
• Secondaries are balanced around 1.5 seconds max for single and 2 seconds max for dual
• Single shot weapons balanced around 1.2 seconds max

3/18/2019 Update:

After Melee 2.9 released on PC last week, since you are able to swap instantly to melee,it got me thinking some ideas.

• Change the the "Hold swap to switch to melee" to "hold to swap for Arch-gun"
• Add the Arch-gun cooldown timer as a debuff on the hud 
• In a future update when Arch-melee is available that it uses "hold swap" when melee is equipped to use it
• Add unarmed melee combat that can use gauntlet & sparring stances and can be modded and can be used at any time even in missions with "shotgun only","bow only", etc. modifiers 
• Have the warframe switch to unarmed combat my taping the swap button while melee is equipped
• When in the air,hold the jump button to active Arch-wing when in POE or Orb Vallis but would require to smoothen and speed up this transition by using Anthem as an example

Extra:Add smoke when firing and reloading a weapon. Give the ability to mod kubrow,Kavat & MOA melee using melee mods with their own unique stances.  

Edited March 27, 2019 by (PS4)CommanderRadec81

[Tricky5hift]

I think you can cancel reloads on PC but I don't know how to do it on Consoles.

As for overall attention to detail I agree the guns do seem kind of clunky but they have been making changes in terms of sound design and from what I hear they have plans to make holstering weapons more streamlined.

[GinKenshin]

It's not an immediate issue tbh, gunplay in this game is probably it's best aspect, at least for me. iirc muzzle flashes is a thing for most weapons, firing animations are also there, but not for all weapons because most don't need it, sounds are pretty good and iirc they polished them not too long ago, recoil is pretty basic and could use work, most weapons have awesome reload animations like plasmor and latron, not every weapon needs them tbh, aiming animations sound redundant, iirc they're working on sound feedback for when you hit an enemy, not every weapon uses that type of ammo, and you almost always see the emptied clip you throw out when you reload, you can just look at their hp bar to see if they're taking dmg or not

most of these are already ingame in some way or don't fit all the weapons out there, I can't see I won't welcome an update, but the thing we have is already pretty awesome as is. also keep in mind it's very hard to come up with all of these for every single weapon out there, since they're so different, compared to melee which most is similar in most cases 

[(PSN)CommanderRadec81]

7 minutes ago, Tricky5hift said:

I think you can cancel reloads on PC but I don't know how to do it on Consoles.

As for overall attention to detail I agree the guns do seem kind of clunky but they have been making changes in terms of sound design and from what I hear they have plans to make holstering weapons more streamlined.

I already made a topic on weapon swap months ago so check it if you want and share your thoughts.When did they make changes for the sound design? I didn't notice any difference at all.

After Melee 3.0,I think DE should add new weapon classes without having to make completely new weapons.

 

[Tricky5hift]

I believe in U 23.10 they updated gun SFX to more accurately reflect distance.

It was supposed to be more helpful in PoE so I guess it is kind of hard to notice.

And I also believe they mentioned in a devstream that they were reworking holstering animations.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Tricky5hift

[Chaemyerelis]

There's gunplay ? All i see is spam trigger and wipe map. 😛

[(PSN)CommanderRadec81]

26 minutes ago, GinKenshin said:

latron

Are you sure? Because the current reload is bad because it uses the same animation as the braton,their is no bolt on the latron/latron wraith for the warframe to pull and no magazine on the weapon model unless it reloads like a M1 Garand. 

Edited November 30, 2018 by (PS4)CommanderRadec81

[GinKenshin]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)CommanderRadec81 said:

Are you sure? Because the current reload is bad because it uses the same animation as the braton,their is no bolt on the latron/latron wraith for the warframe to pull and no magazine on the weapon model unless it reloads like a M1 Garand. 

talking about the prime, my bad. still, it's just my opinion since it's my favorite weapon, there's probably better examples, staticor comes to mind

[GrayArchon]

1 hour ago, (PS4)CommanderRadec81 said:

animated muzzle flashes

Some weapons have animated muzzle flashes, most notably the Dex guns (muzzle flash in the shape of the Lotus symbol). I guess there could be more.

1 hour ago, (PS4)CommanderRadec81 said:

firing animations

Certain guns, especially the Marelok and Euphona Prime, have cool firing animations where they spin the gun after each shot.

1 hour ago, (PS4)CommanderRadec81 said:

reload animations

Many guns have unique reload animations, but seeing as many of the guns are generic automatic or semi-automatic rifles, I'm not sure they need to spend too much time differentiating them. I don't really pay attention to how the Karak reloads versus the Braton.

1 hour ago, (PS4)CommanderRadec81 said:

adding a mechanic like Titanfall 2's segmented reloads and be able to cancel a reload with the reload button

The Strun and Corinth feature partial reloads.

1 hour ago, (PS4)CommanderRadec81 said:

impacts that make it easy to tell if your shots hit a enemy

They added sound cues to help with this within the last year. Perhaps try messing with your audio settings if you can't hear it?

1 hour ago, (PS4)CommanderRadec81 said:

bullet casings/shotgun shells ejection animations and sounds

Again, many guns do this.

1 hour ago, (PS4)CommanderRadec81 said:

adding a white/grey hitmarker if enemies aren't taking damage

Enemies that are invincible have grayed-out health bars.

It seems like most of what you're suggesting is already in the game, and you want to expand it to all (most?) guns. I'm not sure I agree. I like that the Marelok is fairly singular with its firing animation. I appreciate the Strun's partial reload and see it as a unique characteristic of the weapon. I don't like the Boltor, but sometimes I'll bring it with the Bravura skin so I can see that sick reload animation.

If your suggestions lead to all the weapons looking/sounding/feeling cool in their own way, then I'm all for it (although I don't know about the burden to the animation/sound teams). But if it leads to all the weapons seeming the same, with nothing to differentiate them (eg all weapons have partial reload), then that just seems like a bad move.

[(PSN)CommanderRadec81]

On 2018-11-30 at 9:55 AM, GrayArchon said:

Certain guns, especially the Marelok and Euphona Prime, have cool firing animations where they spin the gun after each shot.

The only real issue with those firing animations of the Marelok is your warframe's left arm has bad hand placement,act like the gun is still being held while firing and that the animation looks janky when you stop firing the gun.

On 2018-11-30 at 9:55 AM, GrayArchon said:

Many guns have unique reload animations, but seeing as many of the guns are generic automatic or semi-automatic rifles, I'm not sure they need to spend too much time differentiating them. I don't really pay attention to how the Karak reloads versus the Braton.

Most of the old guns use the same reload animation as braton that it just doesn't look right when the gun doesn't have a visible magazine on the model like the Hind or Bolto using the same reload as the Lato.

On 2018-11-30 at 9:55 AM, GrayArchon said:

They added sound cues to help with this within the last year. Perhaps try messing with your audio settings if you can't hear it?

I mainly talking about visual impacts like how the kitguns seem to have it.

On 2018-11-30 at 9:55 AM, GrayArchon said:

Again, many guns do this.

Not alot them do for example the Lato is missing this.

On 2018-11-30 at 9:55 AM, GrayArchon said:

Enemies that are invincible have grayed-out health bars.

Gorth from the Rathuum can become invulnerable randomly at anytime with no indication at all. Players should be able to know that without looking at the enemies health bar.

On 2018-11-30 at 9:55 AM, GrayArchon said:

If your suggestions lead to all the weapons looking/sounding/feeling cool in their own way, then I'm all for it (although I don't know about the burden to the animation/sound teams).

That is one of the main reasons why I made this post in the first place and just wanting the gunplay to look high quality and smooth as good as games like Doom and Destiny. 

Edited December 1, 2018 by (PS4)CommanderRadec81

[(PSN)CommanderRadec81]

1 hour ago, GinKenshin said:

talking about the prime, my bad. still, it's just my opinion since it's my favorite weapon, there's probably better examples, staticor comes to mind

Thanks for the clarification and have a nice day.

[DiabolusUrsus]

My biggest gripes:

• Bad recoil implementation preventing decent interaction and causing motion sickness for some players on high-recoil weapons. This game has more horizontal recoil than some PVP titles, which is ridiculous.
• Hitscan weapons using the same old uncolorable muzzle flashes and tracer FX.

I agree that gunplay needs a pass, but I dunno that immediately after Melee 3.0 would be a good time for it. I doubt DE has much in the way of good ideas for improvements. There's no indication that they've given any thought to the subject.

[XenMaster]

As long Gorgonr variant has their own unique sound. *Heavy gunner appears*

 

*Mini buses crashing firing sound*

[Marvelous_A]

I think the gunplay is still overall fine but DE really need to redo the SFX of the old weapons coz they sound like airsoft guns rather than a real, lethal weapon.

Edited December 1, 2018 by Marvelous_A

[(PSN)CommanderRadec81]

10 hours ago, Marvelous_A said:

I think the gunplay is still overall fine but DE really need to redo the SFX of the old weapons coz they sound like airsoft guns rather than a real, lethal weapon.

Which weapons exactly?

[(PSN)CommanderRadec81]

For anyone confused about the segmented reload mechanic I mentioned:

And an other issue with gunplay in Warframe has I forgot to mention is about the ammo economy:

As well as the accuracy stat,reticle, and camera shake being used as recoil.

Edited December 1, 2018 by (PS4)CommanderRadec81

[(PSN)CommanderRadec81]

On 2018-11-30 at 12:42 PM, DiabolusUrsus said:

I agree that gunplay needs a pass, but I dunno that immediately after Melee 3.0 would be a good time for it.

I don't expect them to do it immediately after Melee 3.0 just give them at least 5 months to iron out any issues after release.

On 2018-11-30 at 12:42 PM, DiabolusUrsus said:

I doubt DE has much in the way of good ideas for improvements. There's no indication that they've given any thought to the subject.

If DE has any trouble, I could just start pointing out the issues of the gunplay of every single weapon in the game and make suggestions and show examples from other games and that you guys can also help out if you want. So let me start with the Miter:

• No recoil and firing animation
• No visual or audio que for the charged shots when charging it up and when it's fully charged(don't tell me to look at the reticle because the game should be able to give the player proper information just by visuals and audio during gameplay,not the UI and that the only weapon that seems to have this is the Phantasma)  
• Uses the Braton reload animation and here is an example to improve it:

 

Edited December 4, 2018 by (PS4)CommanderRadec81

[DiabolusUrsus]

2 hours ago, (PS4)CommanderRadec81 said:

I don't expect them to do it immediately after Melee 3.0 just give them at least 5 months to iron out any issues after release.

If DE has any trouble, I could just start pointing out the issues of the gunplay of every single weapon in the game and make suggestions and show examples from other games and that you guys can also help out if you want. So let me start with the Miter:

• No recoil and firing animation
• No visual or audio que for the charged shots when charging it up and when it's fully charged(don't tell me to look at the reticle because the game should be able to give the player proper information just by visuals and audio during gameplay,not the UI and that the only weapon that seems to have this is the Phantasma)  
• Uses the Braton reload animation and here is an example to improve it:

 

Fair, and I don't disagree.

What would you think of making all weapons projectile-based (with some just being really fast) and expanding the number of mods which affect flight speed?

IMO this would be an important step toward consistency and ensuring specific niches are better-defined. It should also help make accuracy/evasion more useful stats.

[(PSN)CommanderRadec81]

On 2018-12-04 at 11:06 AM, DiabolusUrsus said:

Fair, and I don't disagree.

What would you think of making all weapons projectile-based (with some just being really fast) and expanding the number of mods which affect flight speed?

IMO this would be an important step toward consistency and ensuring specific niches are better-defined. It should also help make accuracy/evasion more useful stats.

Yes but that would mean DE would have to optimize the game to compensate for that to actually work properly.

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

Gunplay

now, not talking about cool animations or graphics effect, but the way the guns actually 'play'

Coming from a background in Destiny yeah I do feel like Warframes gunplay is lacking.

 

its really subtle and hard to quanitfy,

I dunno, I guess they feel less ?smooth? more clunky to aim and shoot with

maybe that's because Destiny has enormous bullet magnetism to help make players feel more skilled?

might be some subtle difference in the way screen shake is handled so we feel more 'in tune' with the weapons?

 

 

 

A big aspect I definitely missed is Recoil mechanics

in Destiny weapon recoil has consistent patterns for each gun and part of gunplay was learning how to compensate for it

for example you could have a burst fire gun where the muzzle climbs putting each bullet a little bit higher above the last one, but if you learned to sweep your crosshairs down just right you could counter the recoil and make them all land pinpoint

this aspect doesn't seem to work nearly as well in Warframe; many guns don't even have that kind of recoil, while others have RNG recoil that is inconsistent and can't be countered consistently.

 

Im sure there are many other subtle aspects that I'm just missing cause its subliminal

but yeah, guns just don't play as well in Warframe as what I'm used to

[DiabolusUrsus]

3 hours ago, (PS4)CommanderRadec81 said:

Yes but that would mean DE would have to optimize the game to compensate for that to actually work properly.

They're constantly optimizing anyway, aren't they?

[(PSN)CommanderRadec81]

16 hours ago, (PS4)haphazardlynamed said:

Im sure there are many other subtle aspects that I'm just missing cause its sublimina

It's the animation quality,reticle,accuracy stat and lack of proper visual feedback like blood,visible damage to shields like in Halo and enemies not reacting to getting damaged. (Skip to 2:39)

 

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

Am 4.12.2018 um 20:06 schrieb DiabolusUrsus:

What would you think of making all weapons projectile-based (with some just being really fast) and expanding the number of mods which affect flight speed?

All my yeses.

Of course this should also apply to enemies! *looking at Grineer* Make dodging meaningful and reaction / skill based all around. :3

Am 30.11.2018 um 17:56 schrieb GinKenshin:

It's not an immediate issue tbh, gunplay in this game is probably it's best aspect, at least for me.

That's kinda sad considering it's still mainly promoted as 3rd person shooter. But yeah, endless energy has made gunplay almost redundant, weirdly enough.

 

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

Also another thing i'd like to bring up again in this context:

Frames should never be able to block their own aiming sight! Like srsly, i encounter this problem pretty much every single gaming session, it's probably as old as the game itself:

It becomes most apparent when you're hugging the walls, which is something you naturally wanna do quite often when perma-surrounded like in ESO.

DE pls. :3

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

14 hours ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

Also another thing i'd like to bring up again in this context:

Frames should never be able to block their own aiming sight! Like srsly, i encounter this problem pretty much every single gaming session, it's probably as old as the game itself:

It becomes most apparent when you're hugging the walls, which is something you naturally wanna do quite often when perma-surrounded like in ESO. 

DE pls. :3

 

Interestingly, it seems they're aware of the issue enough that Enemies up close that block your camera fade out. -I swear I've seen it happen-

But not your own Warframe, because??? WHY?