DE this is a step in the right direction but please listen to the veterans of the game

[toxicitzi]

@Skyrage If you're talking about PoE or Fortuna, the reason there is those don't move forward, they're remixes of the current Star chart missions with the exact same enemy types we've seen for years. They weren't meant to be anything tangentially close to endgame content.

From what I'm seeing, the Tau system and mentions of raids returning might be that.

[toxicitzi]

One last note.

For MMORPGs , the notion of something endgame is always going to be temporary and ever changing, depending on content release, because anything and everything will be cleared eventually, what DE has neglected is adding challenge to this, a purpose to the collection and increased efficiency of warframes and weapons.

 

I don't understand why people are confused by this. This how MMOs in general have stayed relevant over the span of years.

[maxedpotato]

19 hours ago, Gurpgork said:

The reason they haven’t added a solid endgame is because players possess such gamebreaking power that it’s virtually impossible to challenge us. It’s really hard to add genuinely difficult content to a game that is fundamentally easy. 

And any time they're introducing counters... No, not even counters.. Minor inconviniences, the community goes nuts. We need more enemy types such as nullifiers that can counter our Warframes if we ever hope to get anything close to endgame. But the community can't tolerate that unfortunately.

Edited January 20, 2019 by maxedpotato

[toxicitzi]

6 minutes ago, maxedpotato said:

And any time they're introducing counters... No, not even counters..
_Minor inconviniences_ the community goes nuts. We need more enemy types such as nullifiers that can counter our Warframes if we ever hope to get anything close to endgame.

I would much rather get a permanent warframes and weapons rebalance solution going, so we can avoid that kind of player neutering design.

But I agree.. the community does go nuts over this sort of thing, which is why we've seen nullifiers and armor scaling put in place, to keep a semblance of a challenge going.

Edited January 20, 2019 by toxicitzi

[Gurpgork]

3 hours ago, maxedpotato said:

And any time they're introducing counters... No, not even counters.. Minor inconviniences, the community goes nuts. We need more enemy types such as nullifiers that can counter our Warframes if we ever hope to get anything close to endgame. But the community can't tolerate that unfortunately.

Nullifiers are a symptom of the problem, not a solution to it. It’s really telling that the only way that the devs can challenge us is by adding enemies that take away the tools we usually use to fight enemies. They’re artificial difficulty in a nutshell, and so of course they frustrate players.

The real solution, as @toxicitzi said, is a massive rebalance to player power. 

[CarrotSalad]

5 hours ago, AntiMomentum said:

I think having a completely optional "endgame" that won't have a negative impact on new players but still offers more challenge to those who chose to do it is the best start to getting a real endgame.

Welcome to land of developer hell.
Any endgame content has a direct impact on new players as it removes veterans away from mixing with new players. At the same time it creates a gulf of experience and expertise between those players. As time goes on this experience rift normally tears players apart as elitism sets in. When new players make the step and find they dont play to said "veterans" standards.

In my book PVP is endgame as its the general progression path when you finish splatoon, smash bros, mario kart, league of legends, battlefield etc.

Edited January 20, 2019 by CarrotSalad

[(PSN)Deadwood_Lane]

Well imo endgame is a separate tileset with MR20 and above, make it worth to grind all that way to MR20 and above. Add a new planet system and start the first misson with lvl100 enemies and then yea go higher from that mission.
I see some comments about separating endgame players from from new players but that already happens, how many veterans and endgame players does the regular alerts? and how many endgame players does regular missions unless they farm for something?
without a solid endgame you would separate those players more cause it would make endgame players quit, I am myself on a long break. Is that really what the devs want you think?

Endgame is easy, add a endgame tileset. Fix arbitrations, make it worth something, something like new unique landing crafts and such. give use unique mods, only limited to lets say 10 unique mods in the whole game and you could have a chance to get it from arbitrations. I would like to see a mod with 0 reload for Tigris, now that would be awesome, and they should only released 10 of those mods.
Well... I could add a lot of more ideas like this but at some point u would want the devs to listen but as I said in my OP I think the new changes are at least a step in the right direction. Im waiting for something new unique to grind before I get back into the game.

Edited January 20, 2019 by (PS4)Deadwood_Lane

[maxedpotato]

1 hour ago, CarrotSalad said:

Welcome to land of developer hell.
Any endgame content has a direct impact on new players as it removes veterans away from mixing with new players. At the same time it creates a gulf of experience and expertise between those players. As time goes on this experience rift normally tears players apart as elitism sets in. When new players make the step and find they dont play to said "veterans" standards.

In my book PVP is endgame as its the general progression path when you finish splatoon, smash bros, mario kart, league of legends, battlefield etc.

The problem with your last statement is that, those games have PvE as something extra. PvP is the primary focus.
We can't force Warframe to set it's scopes on PvP. We can't force the game to become something it isn't.

[Gurpgork]

42 minutes ago, (PS4)Deadwood_Lane said:

Well imo endgame is a separate tileset with MR20 and above, make it worth to grind all that way to MR20 and above.

I don’t really approve of gating content that is extremely desirable and worthwhile behind something that is otherwise as inconsequential as MR. The one and only thing that MR measures is how much time you spent leveling up random weapons. It is not in any way a metric of how prepared a player is for endgame content. 

[(PSN)Deadwood_Lane]

2 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

I don’t really approve of gating content that is extremely desirable and worthwhile behind something that is otherwise as inconsequential as MR. The one and only thing that MR measures is how much time you spent leveling up random weapons. It is not in any way a metric of how prepared a player is for endgame content. 

Its the only thing Warframe got imo, at least at MR20 you have a certain damage after all. Doing it any other way would not be possible and would require setting up a new parameter for how far you have exceeded ingame and that to me is much further away than to add a real endgame content with the things you already have in the game, well I guess with the exception with my idea that you would need to add another tileset for the endgame.

[Gurpgork]

Just now, (PS4)Deadwood_Lane said:

Its the only thing Warframe got imo, at least at MR20 you have a certain damage after all. Doing it any other way would not be possible and would require setting up a new parameter for how far you have exceeded ingame and that to me is much further away than to add a real endgame content with the things you already have in the game, well I guess with the exception with my idea that you would need to add another tileset for the endgame.

If it really must be gated in such a way that only endgame ready players can access it, then it would make more sense to, say, make a key for the content that requires Vitus Essence to craft. Because unlike grinding MR, farming Vitus Essence requires a level of proficiency with fighting lots of high level enemies without dying. 

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

3 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

If it really must be gated in such a way that only endgame ready players can access it, then it would make more sense to, say, make a key for the content that requires Vitus Essence to craft. Because unlike grinding MR, farming Vitus Essence requires a level of proficiency with fighting lots of high level enemies without dying. 

but  then people will just get oberons and nezhas to carry them.... 

and if u think im joking, im not

people jump into arbitrations just to get carried, and cant even make it to the 3rd rotation most of the time!

[Vox_Preliator]

3 hours ago, Gurpgork said:

Nullifiers are a symptom of the problem, not a solution to it. It’s really telling that the only way that the devs can challenge us is by adding enemies that take away the tools we usually use to fight enemies. They’re artificial difficulty in a nutshell, and so of course they frustrate players.

The real solution, as @toxicitzi said, is a massive rebalance to player power. 

It's certainly an issue, and not one with an easy solution.

We need to reign in player power, but any attempt to do so is met with massive whining until it's undone.

Alright, so the community isn't able to handle that, how about enemies that take more thought or effort to fight that aren't just "Basically a Lancer but more numbers?"  Nope, can't have that, it's super important to the community that the same strategies and equipment and builds are all equally applicable in all situations at all levels despite culling ineffective techniques literally being the point of increased difficulty.

Though to be honest, I fundamentally disagree with your assessment of Nullifiers.  If anything, it's levels that are artificial difficulty while troops that force the player to adapt their strategy are closer to actual difficulty.  Even if players were reigned in a whole lot I'd rather there be more interesting foes like Noxes, Nullifiers, Bursa, Manics, Scrambus, etc.  Ones that aren't just "Guy with gun who shoots at you and maybe also does one other thing" with different numbers.

Edited January 20, 2019 by Vox_Preliator

[VenomousValentine]

20 hours ago, hazerddex said:

im convinced some of these vets are looking for a "you win the game screen." i.e a definitive end of the game at this point which will never happen. because if they make a definitive end they can't add anything after it. and that would basically be the death of warframe. 

 

 

That's not what we're looking for at all.. We want a challenge with consistent replayability that isn't monotonously dull like the rest of the content. 

But I've mostly given up on that dream and would rather DE just rework conclave so I have something to do while waiting for new updates.

That's the real trick, you don't need an endgame because pvp is inherently challenging.

[(XBOX)Erudite Prime]

Warframe can't have an 'endgame' due to the intrinsic nature of the game. It's a game all about grinding to get stronger. Once you're as strong as you can be, you've "won" and that's it. You've finished the game. 

Don't just tell the developers to "add an endgame." That could be anything. Present some ideas at least so we have something to talk about.

[True_Naeblis]

I just don't understand why this game can't use mechanics effectively. Every fight from Vor onward becomes a cheese fest where we have to try to outlast and out ability ridiculous invulnerability periods, try to hit ridiculously small targets as a boss the size of a beach ball flies everywhere overhead or a normal sized one teleports all over the map. I know how much people love this game, but there are so many boss encounter design basics that have been missed entirely by the dev team. There are reasons that some things are fundamental and enjoyed in so many other titles.

You want fast-paced difficulty done well? Look at Ninja Gaiden Black/Sigma. Frenetic pacing requiring twitch reactions where you're actually rewarded for your efforts. Same for Devil May Cry, Bayonetta, and many others. Games with flowing combat that are praised don't win their awards and following by offering two seconds of actual combat for every one minute the boss is on the screen. Games that players go back to again and again have the replay value they do because how the player manages the fight changes how the boss responds. Honestly, if Warframe had better fight design all we would need is a slider to keep the fights relevant up to the maxed out levels of gear.

I'd love to see fights where skill is challenged in different ways. Do enough damage and the boss enters a phase where you actually need to use your ability to wall hang to survive because it covers the floor in acid. Telegraph moves in interesting ways that mean players need to be aware and will suffer if they don't, but have a chance to avoid whatever is coming. Employ the things that make great games great.

Lastly, stop overtuning everything. DE has this constant habit of taking what could be enjoyable and ramping it up to the point that it's just not even fun anymore. The final zone of Octavia's Anthem was freaking awesome when it began, but by the last round the speed was cranked up, the platforms were made tiny, and there were so many adds popping in that it was work to keep taking them out. The new Orb fight on Fortuna took a great idea--having a shield that changes what status it's vulnerable to--and implemented it poorly by taking it to the extreme. Find some balance. Hek's Glistening Magnificence is more like dull meh because it turns into a blinding massacre of on screen effects and flashes with massive damage and knockdowns being shot every which way instead of a challenging experience. Wouldn't you know it, the Orb Vallis fight does the same, passing off knockdowns and streams of Nullies as top level difficulty.

I don't know what true end game should be in Warframe; I know what I'd like it to be, but it really is something I think the devs should puzzle out on their own. What I do know is that there are already more bosses to fight in this game than even many MMOs offer, yet the replay value of most of those fights is horrendous because they're made out of cheese instead of challenges. Fix the design philosophy of Warframe's boss fights and it's more than possible to have fast paced, bullet hell third person action that challenges even the most powerful frames.

[XenMaster]

22 hours ago, Skyrage said:

Define "endgame" in Warframe first.

Riven.

 

But everything always come to an end example, if you max all mods in the game, where you gonna spend the endo then? Thats the main problem.

[ganjou234]

On 2019-01-20 at 12:09 PM, Ekemeister said:

Screw endgame. I'm more interested in "mission wrinkles" as the man in the beanie put it. What interesting, new situations requiring thought and decision making might DE have in store?

This. Difficulty in scenario, enemies are just bumps along the road that have to be....eliminated.

 

Edit: DE has to implement a "Director AI" or something from an RTS...

Edited January 21, 2019 by ganjou234

[(PSN)Deadwood_Lane]

10 hours ago, (XB1)Erudite God said:

Warframe can't have an 'endgame' due to the intrinsic nature of the game. It's a game all about grinding to get stronger. Once you're as strong as you can be, you've "won" and that's it. You've finished the game. 

Don't just tell the developers to "add an endgame." That could be anything. Present some ideas at least so we have something to talk about.

I did above this post. And also search endgame warframe on youtube and you will get a lot of ideas from veterans and endgamers in this game. My post was a call for attention not a post about what to do initially, though I have my ideas. DE should have listened to veterans 1.5 years ago, when I started to play this game many veterans left as there was a lot of changes at the time and yea endgame matters were and are still not answered. Arbitration was a good start but it needs to be improved a lot...

Edited January 21, 2019 by (PS4)Deadwood_Lane

[(PSN)Deadwood_Lane]

DE devs, can someone of you for once at least answer anything outside of the news section? ...Hmm

[MrWednesday]

5 hours ago, (PS4)Deadwood_Lane said:

DE devs, can someone of you for once at least answer anything outside of the news section? ...Hmm

Never going happened. From the latest dev stream, it is pretty clear that DE themselves are aware of the “endgame” issue but reluctant to even discuss. This is because they pretty much have no idea how to tackle it. I also don’t see any good suggestions in here. 

[CarrotSalad]

12 hours ago, True_Naeblis said:

there are already more bosses to fight in this game than even many MMOs offer,

nah, Dragon Nest takes that title. Im sure theres other MMO's that offer more than Warframe.

I'd hate to see Warframe copy the bad excuse of an endgame that is the checklist that blade and soul has now.

Anyone  have any examples atleast of a game that does good "endgame"?

[True_Naeblis]

@CarrotSalad I said more bosses than many MMOs, not all =p The point is that there are lots of bosses that could offer good replay value the same way that other titles with lots of bosses already do, but DE fails to capitalize on them. Other than going back for specific drops, especially when forced to by sidequests, I don't touch the majority of them again if I don't have to because there's nothing enjoyable about them. There's plenty to work with that's being underutilized, that's the point.

Raids are coming back, so we'll see if they manage to fix the issues there. I'll tell you what I don't want to see in top tier content: more mind-numbing grind. I absolutely hate PoE and Fortuna because they take content that could be enjoyable and hollow it out for the sake of creating an easy way of forcing players to stay logged in. Again, I'd love to see bosses across the star chart scale up in terms of difficulty/penalty; have them be a challenge and be fun at any level because they employ intelligent mechanics. I wish more people would be critical of DE in the right ways and praise what they do well while holding them accountable and asking for more where they fall short. Too many people give this game cult status and white knight every decision instead of pointing out what's done the right ways and asking for more in that vein.

[(PSN)Deadwood_Lane]

16 minutes ago, CarrotSalad said:

nah, Dragon Nest takes that title. Im sure theres other MMO's that offer more than Warframe.

I'd hate to see Warframe copy the bad excuse of an endgame that is the checklist that blade and soul has now.

Anyone  have any examples atleast of a game that does good "endgame"?

Before Warframe I played mostly Mobas and the endgame was you trying to outbetter yourself, I miss something like that in Warframe.

[(PSN)Deadwood_Lane]

26 minutes ago, matkiencan138 said:

Never going happened. From the latest dev stream, it is pretty clear that DE themselves are aware of the “endgame” issue but reluctant to even discuss. This is because they pretty much have no idea how to tackle it. I also don’t see any good suggestions in here. 

I didn't focus with it cause partners. streamers and veterans have already and I just want the devs to give the veterans something at least, well why not? ..In the end, not having veterans in this game will probably not be good for a game like this. I hope they realize that, this year at least...