Prime vs Umbra

[DerGreif2]

2 hours ago, White_Matter said:

By making Excal Prime redundant because there is a stronger variant out there which is accessible by everyone.  there is no incentive to play Excal Prime anymore for someone who has access to both.

There should be no incentive besides pride and showing others that you supported the game since the beginning. Thats it. It has meaningful purpose and not to 100% a playable bonus... which other players never will reach.

[(XBOX)SilverSurferGuy]

2 hours ago, White_Matter said:

 

Your tone pretty much sums up who is really butthurt here. How long have you waited to rub it in our faces ? 5 years ? Lol. 

I think it took DE 5 years to find a way to screw us over without breaking the founder terms, and they finally did it.  

Actually, I’m not butthurt about it. I don’t blame founders for the business decisions DE made that day. Given that, at the time, Excalibur prime was hardly an upgrade to the original along with having the least cosmetic difference from the base counterpart. There were ample skins to make Excalibur look phenomenal. What irritates me is the attitude of some founders who think like you. Thinking that you got screwed over. You got what you paid for didn’t you? DE promised only exclusivity. They even thought ahead and buffed prime to have the same stats. And speaking of rubbing it in, how long have founders rubbed in their exclusive frame for? Five years? So excuse us for gloating when you finally get a taste of your own medicine. 

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

Imo, I felt that at the time of Excalibur Umbra’s release DE should’ve gave Excalibur Prime better base stats over Excalibur Umbra. Even an additional passive that is exclusive to the Prime version so that Founders wouldn’t feel or be subjected to the inferiority on Umbra’s release. Heck, even a buff like Exalted Blade’s Radial Blind on slide attack for Excalibur Prime not costing energy would’ve been appropriate.

I’ve even voiced in the past that, as a non-founder of the game myself, Skana Prime should be buffed in a way that it should match Lato Prime’s exceptional balance pass when it happened. It only feels appropriate.

My roots in Warframe came from the summer of 2015, at the end of the Volt Prime Access and at the beginning of the Ash Prime Access. My cousin was a Grandmaster Founder of Warframe on PC and PS4 and brought me up into this game, and it was a pretty amazing experience. He doesn’t play Warframe anymore because he has a family to raise and his own business to handle, but I can never forget how much he nurtured my growth and development with this game.

What I’m trying to get at here is, give the Founders of the game a break. We have Excalibur Umbra, he’s fun. End of story. If Founders want a slight buff to Excalibur Prime and his access, they have every right to it. The rest of the playerbase will manage, because Umbra is pretty damn good as he is right now. The only thing the rest of the community is missing out on is 12k Mastery and some cosmetics.

[SilentMobius]

On 2019-01-20 at 1:36 PM, (XB1)Sigma Dragon X said:

Sooo i'm just curious.. all the founders out there, i wonder which of you still use Excal Prime now that Umbra is out. We all know the perks of Umbra compared to Prime so do many founders still use him or is he unfortunately collecting dust? I'm not a PC player even tho i easily could've been a founder and gotten him. But i'd rather a controller in my hand and most my friends are on xbox 😋 I'd most definitely alternate a lot tho between Prime and Umbra if i had both.

If I used Excalibur much I'd switch between Umbra and Prime, but I prefer Gara or Khora for general purpose content and Excalibur doesn't really stand out at anything for me.

I did The Sacrifice quest using Excalibur Prime, I often take him on story quests unless there is a reason to use something else.

[White_Matter]

On 2019-01-22 at 11:12 PM, (XB1)SilverSurferGuy said:

Actually, I’m not butthurt about it. I don’t blame founders for the business decisions DE made that day. Given that, at the time, Excalibur prime was hardly an upgrade to the original along with having the least cosmetic difference from the base counterpart. There were ample skins to make Excalibur look phenomenal. What irritates me is the attitude of some founders who think like you. Thinking that you got screwed over. You got what you paid for didn’t you? DE promised only exclusivity. They even thought ahead and buffed prime to have the same stats.

No one would have paid for the founders package if at the time the game had Excal Umbra.  Meaning, no one would pay for a frame that was inferior to what they already had. Try to see it from that perspective and you'll understand the frustration of a founder.

 

On 2019-01-22 at 11:12 PM, (XB1)SilverSurferGuy said:

And speaking of rubbing it in, how long have founders rubbed in their exclusive frame for? Five years? So excuse us for gloating when you finally get a taste of your own medicine. 

Thanks for proving my point. 

And I can't speak for anyone else but I never tried to rub it in, so I don't deserve the backlash of nonfounders who are mad about not having a limited edition item. 

On 2019-01-22 at 11:00 PM, DerGreif2 said:

There should be no incentive besides pride and showing others that you supported the game since the beginning. Thats it. It has meaningful purpose and not to 100% a playable bonus... which other players never will reach.

I have no incentive to take my Excal Prime outside to show anyone anything because I, and everyone else, have access to a better variant of the same frame. 

I'm not asking what is the incentive to HAVE Excal Prime. I'm asking what is the incentive to USE him.

[(PSN)wintersfrozen]

On ‎21‎/‎01‎/‎2019 at 7:47 AM, Henji said:

I've been putting him to good use: 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Best use of Excal Prime I have seen in a long time.

[(XBOX)SilverSurferGuy]

1 hour ago, White_Matter said:

No one would have paid for the founders package if at the time the game had Excal Umbra.  Meaning, no one would pay for a frame that was inferior to what they already had. Try to see it from that perspective and you'll understand the frustration of a founder.

 

Thanks for proving my point. 

And I can't speak for anyone else but I never tried to rub it in, so I don't deserve the backlash of nonfounders who are mad about not having a limited edition item. 

I have no incentive to take my Excal Prime outside to show anyone anything because I, and everyone else, have access to a better variant of the same frame. 

I'm not asking what is the incentive to HAVE Excal Prime. I'm asking what is the incentive to USE him.

But Umbra wasn’t a thing back then now was he? I doubt even DE saw that far into the future and suggested to offer Umbra as we all know him now. And like I said, you got what you paid for. DE promised exclusivity; nothing more. You had him from the beginning. What did you do with him? Did you not use him all that much? As an excal main myself, I’d have used him all the time. Had I owned and used excal prime for five years I certainly would have felt I got my money’s worth. If DE released another Umbra frame, would we have the same dilemma with the ones who bought prime access vs those who didn’t? Or is Excalibur prime and Umbra the exception since prime is exclusive to you? Mind you, I bought a prime access myself. I still wouldn’t have a problem. They may have gotten a free frame but they didn’t get the 2k + plat that I got when I paid. And I know YOU got plat too with the founders pack. You also said you don’t deserve backlash for being a founder, and I agree. It’s the attitude towards this whole ordeal that warrants it

[White_Matter]

15 hours ago, (XB1)SilverSurferGuy said:

But Umbra wasn’t a thing back then now was he? I doubt even DE saw that far into the future and suggested to offer Umbra as we all know him now. And like I said, you got what you paid for. DE promised exclusivity; nothing more. You had him from the beginning. What did you do with him? Did you not use him all that much? As an excal main myself, I’d have used him all the time. Had I owned and used excal prime for five years I certainly would have felt I got my money’s worth. If DE released another Umbra frame, would we have the same dilemma with the ones who bought prime access vs those who didn’t? Or is Excalibur prime and Umbra the exception since prime is exclusive to you? Mind you, I bought a prime access myself. I still wouldn’t have a problem. They may have gotten a free frame but they didn’t get the 2k + plat that I got when I paid. And I know YOU got plat too with the founders pack. You also said you don’t deserve backlash for being a founder, and I agree. It’s the attitude towards this whole ordeal that warrants it

I don't think prime access owners have anything to say in the matter in regards to what they paid for because they didn't pay for something exclusive(aside from glyphs and accessories), weapons and frames can be attained by other means. Say you want Rhino prime, you can farm it or pay for it. If they release Rhino Umbra and it trumps the Prime version then you can't complain that your money went to waste because no one told you to pay for it. It was a choice. As for those who got excal prime, it wasn't a choice. Paying a certain amount was the only way you could attain it. And now it is kind of redundant to use him because everyone, including me, has access to a better variant. And I'm not saying this because I can't take my Excal out for a ride to impress others, believe me some people still go bonkers when they see Excal prime. I'm geniunely sad that it isn't usable anymore, there is nothing more to it.

 

[(XBOX)SilverSurferGuy]

25 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

I don't think prime access owners have anything to say in the matter in regards to what they paid for because they didn't pay for something exclusive(aside from glyphs and accessories), weapons and frames can be attained by other means. Say you want Rhino prime, you can farm it or pay for it. If they release Rhino Umbra and it trumps the Prime version then you can't complain that your money went to waste because no one told you to pay for it. It was a choice. As for those who got excal prime, it wasn't a choice. Paying a certain amount was the only way you could attain it. And now it is kind of redundant to use him because everyone, including me, has access to a better variant. And I'm not saying this because I can't take my Excal out for a ride to impress others, believe me some people still go bonkers when they see Excal prime. I'm geniunely sad that it isn't usable anymore, there is nothing more to it.

 

So only founders have a say in the matter because of the exception for their exclusives. I see...

By the way, the same logic also applies to you. No one told you to buy excal prime. You chose to buy him. So therefore, you can’t complain when DE decided to release Umbra even though he’s slightly better. Excal is a great frame no matter what variant you’re using, so it’s a bit of an exaggeration to say that prime is “unusable”. Use him or don’t. It’s still your frame, it’s still good, and it’s still fun to play. I’d say more but now your true colors are showing and doubt any of it will get through to you. Back when this ordeal was unfolding I suggested that DE release the prime versions of the Umbra mods so that you can mod your prime like Umbra and the founders who were upset with Umbra can shut up. We’re done here, have a good day

[White_Matter]

5 minutes ago, (XB1)SilverSurferGuy said:

So only founders have a say in the matter because of the exception for their exclusives. I see...

By the way, the same logic also applies to you. No one told you to buy excal prime. You chose to buy him. So therefore, you can’t complain when DE decided to release Umbra even though he’s slightly better. Excal is a great frame no matter what variant you’re using, so it’s a bit of an exaggeration to say that prime is “unusable”. Use him or don’t. It’s still your frame, it’s still good, and it’s still fun to play. I’d say more but now your true colors are showing and doubt any of it will get through to you. Back when this ordeal was unfolding I suggested that DE release the prime versions of the Umbra mods so that you can mod your prime like Umbra and the founders who were upset with Umbra can shut up. We’re done here, have a good day

The same logic doesn't apply though, that is the problem.

The only way you can obtain Excal Prime is through buying the founder package. 

Every other prime you can farm, it is optional whether you want to pay or not. That is the difference you don't seem to be getting.

[KaijuKraid]

19 hours ago, White_Matter said:

No one would have paid for the founders package if at the time the game had Excal Umbra.  Meaning, no one would pay for a frame that was inferior to what they already had. Try to see it from that perspective and you'll understand the frustration of a founder.

Strange, I felt like the only reason I brought the Founders pack was because I wanted to support DE and felt that at the time the Founders Pack was a better way of doing it over than just buying some Platinum. Nothing to do with getting Excalibur Prime or the Skana Prime (I didn't go as far as Lato Prime.) 

As for Excalibur Prime being weaker than Umbra? I would say: "Who cares", but apparently some of us do. Do people not remember when Primes weren't actually upgrades of the originals and were just basically a cosmetic and perhaps a couple of polarities different? Hell, I remember when Rhino Prime was released with extra Movement Speed and people were upset about that. This started a trend of Primes to be better than Regulars and even buffing older Primes, including Excalibur Prime. (Several times infact)

I also kept both Ember and Ember Prime because there were no difference between the two aside from Ember Primes very awkward polarities.  We're getting more Umbras. Yes, we paid for Excalibur Prime but we didn't pay for more power. We didn't pay expecting that Excalibur Umbra would appear. We didn't even pay knowing that Excalibur Prime would be buffed a couple of times already. Some people paid only for an Exclusive Version of Excalibur, others paid because we wanted to support DE and others did it just for both reasons. The fact that Excalibur Prime has had buffs is nice in itself.

Also having the Spectre can actually be a detriment, including the fact that it: A) doesn't gain the same defences like other warframes do (90 - 100% Damage Resistance during Transferance), B) it doesn't give affinity and C) It can be VERY bad for fights like Profit Taker and Eidolons thanks to point A. (Could you imagine Volt/Trinity Umbra? It might actually be a nerf when fighting V Eidolons.) 

Edited January 24, 2019 by KaijuKraid

[SneakyErvin]

19 hours ago, White_Matter said:

No one would have paid for the founders package if at the time the game had Excal Umbra.  Meaning, no one would pay for a frame that was inferior to what they already had. Try to see it from that perspective and you'll understand the frustration of a founder.

Except that was 6 years ago.

This isnt much unlike games that include certain power items in their pre-purchase of founders packages that shortly after release become obsolete due to power curves in the game. Atleast the players in WF gained extra mastery from, had 5 and a half years of joy with a power item that no other item could match or surpass.

Did I whine when my ring/neck/armor in X MMO got surpassed by drops at level 10? No. Did I whine when my guns in X pre-ordered shooter game got outpowered by a gun obtained at rank 1? No. Did I whine when an early access premium mount got obsolete after the first taming of an in-game one? No.

Those are the exact same "problems", the difference is they didnt last near 6 years.

[(XBOX)SilverSurferGuy]

36 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

The same logic doesn't apply though, that is the problem.

The only way you can obtain Excal Prime is through buying the founder package. 

Every other prime you can farm, it is optional whether you want to pay or not. That is the difference you don't seem to be getting.

Yes it does apply to you. It doesn’t matter if he could only be purchased. You still made the choice to buy him. Plain and simple. The fact he’s exclusive or locked behind a pay wall means nothing when others have also made the same decision to pay for prime access; and if DE released an Umbra version of a frame they bought that trumps their prime, not only are they on the same boat as you, they can’t complain. Founders got what they paid for, just as prime access owners, myself included, got what they paid for. The fact that you think prime access owners don’t have a say in the matter is quite hypocritical given the context of our conversation and kinda confirms any negative stereotypes of the founders; and I’ve dealt with really nasty individuals back when Umbra was new to everyone. 

[White_Matter]

1 hour ago, (XB1)SilverSurferGuy said:

Yes it does apply to you. It doesn’t matter if he could only be purchased. You still made the choice to buy him. Plain and simple. The fact he’s exclusive or locked behind a pay wall means nothing when others have also made the same decision to pay for prime access

I'm sorry but I stopped reading here. How are they the same thing when every other prime can be obtained by playing the game while Excalibur can only be obtained by buying the founders package ? Obviously buying the founders package and a prime access are two different things. I hate repeating myself but I guess I have to do it once more. If you want Rhino prime, you have two choices. You can either farm it, or just buy an access pack. If you want excalibur prime(and a non returning prime in contrast to the rest of em) you have to buy the package. No other option. 

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Except that was 6 years ago.

This isnt much unlike games that include certain power items in their pre-purchase of founders packages that shortly after release become obsolete due to power curves in the game. Atleast the players in WF gained extra mastery from, had 5 and a half years of joy with a power item that no other item could match or surpass.

Did I whine when my ring/neck/armor in X MMO got surpassed by drops at level 10? No. Did I whine when my guns in X pre-ordered shooter game got outpowered by a gun obtained at rank 1? No. Did I whine when an early access premium mount got obsolete after the first taming of an in-game one? No.

Those are the exact same "problems", the difference is they didnt last near 6 years.

Other MMO's aren't the subject here. There is no level progression or item drops in this game thus none of your comparisons apply to WF.

Also people don't seem to get the fact that I'm not upset that there is a stronger frame than Excal Prime, but rather there is a stronger variant of the exact same frame. Which makes the prime variant obselet because when I want to play with excalibur, it is no brainer that I'll use the strongest variant. 

2 hours ago, KaijuKraid said:

Strange, I felt like the only reason I brought the Founders pack was because I wanted to support DE and felt that at the time the Founders Pack was a better way of doing it over than just buying some Platinum. Nothing to do with getting Excalibur Prime or the Skana Prime (I didn't go as far as Lato Prime.) 

Thats a blatant lie. You wouldn't pay for the founders package if you weren't getting anything in return.

2 hours ago, KaijuKraid said:

We didn't even pay knowing that Excalibur Prime would be buffed a couple of times already. Some people paid only for an Exclusive Version of Excalibur, others paid because we wanted to support DE and others did it just for both reasons. The fact that Excalibur Prime has had buffs is nice in itself.

Prime variants being pure cosmetic would make no sense LORE wise, so DE did the right thing by making them slightly stronger. That was a great design decision on their part.

2 hours ago, KaijuKraid said:

Also having the Spectre can actually be a detriment, including the fact that it: A) doesn't gain the same defences like other warframes do (90 - 100% Damage Resistance during Transferance), B) it doesn't give affinity and C) It can be VERY bad for fights like Profit Taker and Eidolons thanks to point A. (Could you imagine Volt/Trinity Umbra? It might actually be a nerf when fighting V Eidolons.) 

Circumstantial. There are times it would come in handy, or would make no difference at all. Still the fact remains that due to the Umbral mods, it edges out the prime variant in  terms of stats. There is no point in using Excal Prime unless you like handicaps.

 

[(XBOX)SilverSurferGuy]

44 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

I'm sorry but I stopped reading here. How are they the same thing when every other prime can be obtained by playing the game while Excalibur can only be obtained by buying the founders package ? Obviously buying the founders package and a prime access are two different things. I hate repeating myself but I guess I have to do it once more. If you want Rhino prime, you have two choices. You can either farm it, or just buy an access pack. If you want excalibur prime(and a non returning prime in contrast to the rest of em) you have to buy the package. No other option. 

 

Omg....

I’m not talking about the people who farmed for the prime stuff, I’m talking about the ones who choose to BUY it. The founders pack was essentially the first prime access made exclusive to those who bought it. Nothing more. 

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, White_Matter said:

Other MMO's aren't the subject here. There is no level progression or item drops in this game thus none of your comparisons apply to WF.

Also people don't seem to get the fact that I'm not upset that there is a stronger frame than Excal Prime, but rather there is a stronger variant of the exact same frame. Which makes the prime variant obselet because when I want to play with excalibur, it is no brainer that I'll use the strongest variant. 

 

But it does apply because Frames and their different types, just as weapons are the progression here. There is no difference getting a new part of your itemization here than in another game. Mesa Prime is a straight upgrade from Mesa, should the people that spent money on Mesa be upset too because they rendered that version obsolete? This applies to every frame, it is just slightly different with Excal since it went from normal to umbral with prime in between as a founders perk. But every frame still goes through the exact same progress, it doesnt matter when or why you've spent real money on it, Excal Prime is not a special case.

People have already bought their way to Khora, Garuda, Baruuk etc. while knowing there will be a better version released later down the line. And that wait isnt a 6 year one. because new primes come every month. And imagine the people that have already bought both a regular and prime version of some frame, they might get an Umbral version soon too. Should they also be upset? Should I be upset for spending plat bought with real money on Ash Prime and Rhino Prime if they were to go Umbral? No, that would be silly.

[KaijuKraid]

3 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

Thats a blatant lie. You wouldn't pay for the founders package if you weren't getting anything in return.

It was like this on a conversation on Skype one day:

"Hey, this game is pretty decent. I might buy some Platinum and help out with the Game Developers a little. This game has kept me more interested than many AAA titles recently."
"Not a bad idea. You should get the Founders Pack. It gives you a couple of extra goodies and you can always upgrade later on to get more."

So yes, I guess I did do it for the Platinum. But don't accuse my motivations of being an actual lie: I wanted to support the game Developers and I chose the Founder Pack after some urging from my friends on Skype. Infact, to this day they still bring up I like spending money on free to play games that are enjoyable because I like to support game developers that are good. They do it also and infact they all also brought the Founders Pack in Warframe also. 

This also happened when Ember Prime first came out. I was taking a break, some of my friends who still played Warframe at that point told me: "Hey, we know that Ember is your second favourite Warframe. Just thought you should know." I thought neat and decided to buy the Prime Access pack. 

Infact: I once brought some stuff in a beta game: Nosgoth. I spent money on it because I wanted the developers to know that I wanted more Legacy of Kain games. Never ended up playing it, though I kept meaning to. Shame too because they closed down. Funny enough, I did the opposite as my friends: I was the one who urged them to play and support. They did play, though I ended up very busy in those days.

In short: Not everyone is in it just because they want to be a special little snowflake. Some just want to see a game they enjoy do well. Not everyone in a Kickstarter or a Crowd Funding are doing it because they want something special: They just want something they see with potential actually thrive and do well. Do not even assume for a moment that what I said is a blatant lie. And what I got, in turn along with other people is exactly what we got: A game that we did, can and still play. 

7 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

Prime variants being pure cosmetic would make no sense LORE wise, so DE did the right thing by making them slightly stronger. That was a great design decision on their part.

Except think about how they were released at the time, starting with the first widely available prime: Frost Prime. Aside from the fact everyone at the time got a free Frost Prime BP, it was implied that basically Primed Warframes were basically trophies. IIRC: Frost Prime also came out at the same time Forma did. The original reasons Primes were a thing were a Trophy. Something to build up and get after hours and hours of doing the Void with their insanely low drop rates. 

However you brought up lore reasonings and I'm going to tell you why Lore Reasons suck half the time: When Nova skipped the queue and became primed, many people questioned the lore of Nova Prime. When people were speculating on Valkyr Prime, many people assumed it couldn't technically be a thing without many loopholes. Lore is NOT the reason they buffed primes.

Want to know why they probably started buffing Primed Warframes: Arcane Helmets. They removed abilities from Helmets. However the Arcane Vanguard Helmet was basically mandatory to play Rhino. So kill two birds with one stone: Buff Rhino Prime's Movement speed. There was otherwise no reason to buff Primes, especially when they were originally just Trophy Warframes. With that: Warframe Primes got minimal buffs originally. 

I never said it was a bad decision. However you can tell that Warframe Primes were meant to originally be Trophy Frames. Something that you could show off to friends and squads that you spent all that time getting keys to actually grind out.... or that you helped fund DE. The original poor drop rates and such like. The fact that, for example in those days, it didn't actually matter if you had brought in Frost or Frost Prime for that long defence mission as long as it was a Frost. 

But here was my point and was hoping you picked up on it but you didn't: We didn't expect Excalibur Prime to be stronger than Excalibur when we obtained him. We then gained buffs to Excalibur Prime with his last buffs being when Excalibur Umbra dropped. These were nice. 

But we also need to take into account something you decided to drop. Lore. The Sacrifice shows why Umbra is different to Prime. We also know thanks to the mods and the fact that Umbra can also strip Sentient Resistances that Umbra is meant to be able to fight the Sentients. 

22 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

Circumstantial. There are times it would come in handy, or would make no difference at all. Still the fact remains that due to the Umbral mods, it edges out the prime variant in  terms of stats. There is no point in using Excal Prime unless you like handicaps.

Except that perhaps there are times I don't want to use Umbra if I want to use Prime. My earlier example with Eidolons means that Umbra is never going to be able to Eidolons. What if some other content in the future makes Excalibur somehow a best choice frame, but Operator Mode is extensively used because it's a good way to use defence? You call it Circumstantial, but there are definitely places where you do not want Umbras passive. 

We know there will be more Umbras in the future. This means that those who have built Umbral builds on those Warframes that will get Umbra'd have possibly wasted time and forma on a frame that will get powercrept later. We also know that not every Frame is going to get an Umbra variant. Just like in the future, when Titania or Khora finally get their Primes, I'll then be reformaing them because they have base stat upgrades. Excalibur Prime and Excalibur Umbra are basically in the same boat. 

 

[-AiLuoLi-]

Sorry, but Excal Prime will always be superior than every other excal due to the fact that they're exclusive. Who cares about some stat boost when you can be special snowflake forever.

[AzureTerra]

Not a founder, have never felt i was owed a version excalibore beyond what was on offer and am slightly annoyed that i can't sell the umbra since its a waste of a good slot. It better have a damm solid plot point in whatever future content is needed for and then let me delete it.

If i had been a founder i'd be prob begrudgingly be keeping the frame and weapons despite their mediocrity but they 'd never see use when so much better is available.

Edited January 25, 2019 by AzureTerra