Nightwave concept is shafting new and casual players

[(PSN)mcfar53]

3 hours ago, Oreades said:

Which is part of the reason I don't think that weekly challenges should expire. Because someone who can't do a Sortie this week will probably have the capacity to do sorties by the end of the event. So it is extremely capricious to say just because you couldn't do a sortie within this 7 days/168hr window you just lose out on those points over this 70 day/1,680hr event. 

I understand where you are coming from. I think they, me included, are apprehensive about the change. I'm sure it will be a good thing.

[(PSN)mcfar53]

6 hours ago, Auranim said:

I honestly think it has less to do with what new players have to do, and more about what is presented to them. When I started playing, I remember feeling very overwhelmed with the sheer amount of stuff I could do. I first played Warframe for reals right after Plains of Eidolon went live, so I was very eager to experience the new content. So I jumped on my trusty level 8 Mag and went ahead to try and tackle an Eidolon. Solo, because I didn't even know there were clans at the time.

You can imagine how that went.

So I think Nightwaves are okay. There could be more dailies, but honestly, I never thought I'd even see Umbra Forma. That was very very bonus for me. If anything, I think a cosmetic reward such as the armour set should have been placed earlier in the ladder than the actual endgame, useful stuff, but I've always heard that Warframe Endgame is Fashionframe. 😄

What I think could be done has more to do with information architecture. That means limiting the amount of exposure new players have to everything the game has to offer. There really is little reason for an MR5 player to even know about sorties. Is it technically feasible? Yes. But that player must already know what they're doing in order to tackle a sortie at that rank, so either a smurf or someone with very good friends.

The accessibility difference between Nightwave and Alerts is artificial. Nightwave presents the information in a way that makes it feel like you can achieve the ranks and rewards, while Alerts showed very clear [LOCKED] messages in nodes you couldn't still access so you'd know before starting the grind that that one wasn't for you. Yet. So when you start putting in some effort for standing only to realise you won't be able to complete the quest, the whole system feels frustrating. Especially in a game that caters so much to completionists.

Perhaps dividing the whole standing grind in brackets and then assigning a message to that bracket would sort of diminish the issue. Something as simple as "Recommended for MR10+" would clearly indicate things to a newer player, conveying more of a "you'll get there" message than an "oh you poor thing, you thought you'd make it through? Oh, honey, this isn't for you".

That and more dailies. Seriously. Twice as more dailies for half the standing would have *felt* better while not changing the system, but more rewards for smaller tasks is awesome. Vets would complete it organically while new players would have had more to work towards. And if DE ever reads this, trust me: the more people who can complete the event 100%, the better. It feels good seeing this task complete, and it makes it more exciting for the next. And it ups the stakes of MISSING OUT because you don't really want that stain in your career, do you? 😄

Change makes people apprehensive. I'm sure that's it. Once the new system is fully embedded we'll all settle down.

Lol, I was riled up in the beginning.

[Souchira]

Why should you as a new player get the same rewards as someone who has been playing the game for much longer?
Why should you get the same rewards as someone who puts a lot more time into the game?

This getting the grand prize just for participating is bullsh*t and is in part DE's fault for facilitating it where ever they can.

Look at other mmo's where much of the top tier, end game gear is well out of reach of 99% of the player base and only available to guilds that are able to do the most difficult content. 

While you might find this unfair this disparity is actually really important.

Having content that you can only get by putting a certain amount of time and effort into the game rewards long time players giving them a reason to keep playing and it gives new players something to aspire to. I think its really cool that we will finally have some cosmetics that are time based that you can only acquire now. Why? Because its cool to have stuff other people don't. It rewards you for being here, playing the game when they weren't. If anything I think they should put much higher quality cosmetics at the end of the reward tier, I think that will drive a lot of older players back to the game.

I think Nightwave is a great step in improving the new player experience. I'm part of a clan with a huge difference in MR between its members and I've seen two things happen since Nighwave launched. Long time players enjoying helping out newer players complete their challenges and new players doing their first Eidelons, ESO or 60 minute surival and really enjoying it.

I think DE should bring in a specialist that has worked on rewarding players in other mmo's, I think it can really help the game if they do.

P.s. One reason I think a lot of your comments are off the mark is because your judging this new system within its current ecosystem. Which is somewhat understandable but also really unfair. We all know the current new player experience is terrible, it has been for a long time. But DE has committed to make it good and Nightwave is only the first step in this process and its very obvious that many other systems need to be reworked or tweaked to get the new player experience where it should be.

Edited March 6, 2019 by Souchira

[Opetyr]

2 hours ago, Souchira said:

Look at other mmo's where much of the top tier, end game gear is well out of reach of 99% of the player base and only available to guilds that are able to do the most difficult content. 

K have to say this. Catering to the 1% is not the way to keep people.  There have been mmos that do this and it doesn't work out. Example was Wildstar.  Catered to the hardcore gamer and where are they now?

[(PSN)Limorkil]

Absolutely.  It make no logical or business sense to cater to hardcore players.  For Warframe, people who put the most time in spend the fewest dollars on plat, if any dollars.  So, for a free to play game, shifting the focus to those players is a death knell.  

At the same time, I think it is also a terrible  idea to make everting easy to obtain or purchasable with plat. No less than hardcore player wants a handout, and it is a common fallacy to believe that casuals want everything handed to them.  Pausing and applying any logic to the situation will see that as self evident.  

In the case of Nightwave, what more casual players want is to be able to put the same amount of effort into achieving the rewards as a hardcore player, but over a longer period of calendar time.  Hardcore players still benefit from getting the awards much sooner.  In fact, no one loses out.  The problem with Nightwave is the rewards expire, making them unobtainable for some.  If the rewards did not expire then the fact that weeklies expire would not be an issue.  

Someone else suggested that players who did not complete the event could continue it: you choose which event to progress after the daily logon award.  The dailies and weeklies are unlikely to change between events, you just pick which event they count towards.  Another suggestion was for the game to remember your progress on an event so if I only reach rank 10 on Wolf I will be at rank 10 when Wolf comes around again.   

Personally I am sick of the arguing, particularly the lack of reasoning some people have here.  Nightwave is mostly a good idea but with unintended consequences affecting most of Warframes less hardcore players, which are the majority and have serious under-representation on the forum because forums are always hardcore dominated.  The fix is relatively simple and has zero bad impact to hardcore players. Everybody wins. 

[-CdG-Zilchy]

15 minutes ago, (PS4)Limorkil said:

In the case of Nightwave, what more casual players want is to be able to put the same amount of effort into achieving the rewards as a hardcore player, but over a longer period of calendar time.  Hardcore players still benefit from getting the awards much sooner.  In fact, no one loses out.  The problem with Nightwave is the rewards expire, making them unobtainable for some.  If the rewards did not expire then the fact that weeklies expire would not be an issue.  

Gonna call BS on this sorry. If you do then that's admirable but sadly you're in the minority. What most casual players want to do is login and be given the items for free without earning them or at the very best, jumping into a public match and being carried through content they can't handle, for their rewards.

Edited March 6, 2019 by Zilchy

[(PSN)Limorkil]

Well I appreciate your conviction.  

Ok, let’s run with your theory.  So, currently Nightwave doesn’t cater to these evil casuals.  They can’t get the rewards so they get scared off and go play something else.  

Great, no casuals.  We didn’t want them in our game spending real money on plat and paying over the market for rivens and prime parts.  Warframe is a much better game now that no one spends money because we can all grind everything we need.  DE can focus on giving us more endgame content because they really like the fact that we play their free-to-play game.  

Brilliant!  Hardcore wins.  Games with only hardcore players are always the best and most successful.  

* OR *

How about we make the game such that everyone can obtain everything in their own time.  We will still get our stuff quickly, so there is no downside for us, and to get the same reward everyone has to put the same effort in whether it takes them a month or a year.  And because everything is within reach, eventually, no one is put off.  The filthy casuals won’t have a leg to stand on if they whine and moan, and we and DE can bathe in a sea of plat for years to come.  

 

YOU CHOOSE.  

[-CdG-Zilchy]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)Limorkil said:

Well I appreciate your conviction.  

Ok, let’s run with your theory.  So, currently Nightwave doesn’t cater to these evil casuals.  They can’t get the rewards so they get scared off and go play something else.  

Great, no casuals.  We didn’t want them in our game spending real money on plat and paying over the market for rivens and prime parts.  Warframe is a much better game now that no one spends money because we can all grind everything we need.  DE can focus on giving us more endgame content because they really like the fact that we play their free-to-play game.  

Brilliant!  Hardcore wins.  Games with only hardcore players are always the best and most successful.  

* OR *

How about we make the game such that everyone can obtain everything in their own time.  We will still get our stuff quickly, so there is no downside for us, and to get the same reward everyone has to put the same effort in whether it takes them a month or a year.  And because everything is within reach, eventually, no one is put off.  The filthy casuals won’t have a leg to stand on if they whine and moan, and we and DE can bathe in a sea of plat for years to come.  

 

YOU CHOOSE.  

You know the irony of what you've just said?

That's exactly how the game was when it was great before they got too greedy and the casual crowd flooded in.

[Hypernaut1]

Personally, I'm not asking for it to be easier. I'm asking to be able to earn it at my own pace, like with 99% of WF content. Even with log-in rewards, everyone had a fair chance to earn... But those that were dedicated simply got it sooner. 

I just not sure if I like the idea that I HAVE to play their way for 10 weeks or miss out.  Events were similar but required a much smaller commitment,1 -2 weeks at best. Many times Completable in 2-3 days. 

Edited March 6, 2019 by Hypernaut1

[-CdG-Zilchy]

2 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Personally, I'm not asking for it to be easier. I'm asking to be able to earn it at my own pace, like with 99% of WF content. Even with log-in rewards, everyone had a fair chance to earn... But those that were dedicated simply got it sooner. 

As I said, I can respect that but I reckon you're one of the rare ones. And the majority of the casual crowd doesn't feel the same way. And I'm basing that off of the hundreds of public missions I've done over the years, the MR 1s doing tridolon hunts, the Fortuna bounty 5 players, Gift of lotus's with 3 excaliburs etc you get the idea.

[Hypernaut1]

8 minutes ago, Zilchy said:

As I said, I can respect that but I reckon you're one of the rare ones. And the majority of the casual crowd doesn't feel the same way. And I'm basing that off of the hundreds of public missions I've done over the years, the MR 1s doing tridolon hunts, the Fortuna bounty 5 players, Gift of lotus's with 3 excaliburs etc you get the idea.

I'm more concerned about how I'll feel 2-3 seasons from now though. Currently, I'm having no issue playing. It was kind of refreshing to easily find a 1hr kuva crew. I get what they're trying to accomplish. 

Edited March 6, 2019 by Hypernaut1

[-CdG-Zilchy]

Just now, Hypernaut1 said:

I'm more concerned about how I'll feel 2-3 seasons from now though. Currently, I'm having no issue playing. It was kind of refreshing to easily find a 1hr kuva crew. I get what they're trying to accomplish. 

That will indeed be interesting. My fear is that constant knee jerk reactions will bully DE into making the weekly elite challenges something like "complete 3 capture missions"  or "successfully log in to your account". Exaggeration obviously but you get the idea. As it stands, even though it's not very challenging, I at least have something to do in the game.

[D1sTrust]

5 hours ago, Souchira said:

Why should you as a new player get the same rewards as someone who has been playing the game for much longer?
Why should you get the same rewards as someone who puts a lot more time into the game?
...

Look at other mmo's where much of the top tier, end game gear is well out of reach of 99% of the player base and only available to guilds that are able to do the most difficult content. 
...

Just speaking for myself, new-ish player, I don`t want Alerts for the high-end loot. I want them for the low-end stuff a new player cares about.
I don`t even know what an Umbra Forma is, nor do I care much for rare cosmetics while I don`t even own the majority of Warframes yet.
What I care for is some extra credits, any rusty weapon I can use for affinity, a potato here and there, some of the more basic mods (e.g. still got no continuity).
The high end loot seems well placed in a system like Nightwave to me.

To pick up on your MMO comparison, the Nightwave change feels more like they made Lvl1-to-Max items much harder/slower to get, but instead they tangle endgame content in front of my nose.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

1 minute ago, D1sTrust said:

Just speaking for myself, new-ish player, I don`t want Alerts for the high-end loot. I want them for the low-end stuff a new player cares about.
I don`t even know what an Umbra Forma is, nor do I care much for rare cosmetics while I don`t even own the majority of Warframes yet.
What I care for is some extra credits, any rusty weapon I can use for affinity, a potato here and there, some of the more basic mods (e.g. still got no continuity).
The high end loot seems well placed in a system like Nightwave to me.

To pick up on your MMO comparison, the Nightwave change feels more like they made Lvl1-to-Max items much harder/slower to get, but instead they tangle endgame content in front of my nose.

Basic mods, join a clan and someone will probably help you out, veterans have loads. I do agree however that they need to put the wolf credits earlier in thr tiers so that they're more accesible for new players to buy things they can actually benefit from. 

Honest and true, even with alerts, the fastest way to get early game stuff you nees is to do Vault runs for corrupt mods to sell for 20p each and fissures to crack relics for prime parts to sell. Credits, any dark sector mission is good until you reach Index and have more credits than you'll ever need.

[wtflag]

You only need to complete 60% of the quests. If some of the quests are too hard, just skip them or wait until weekend when you have more time or clanmates/friends online that can help.

[Colesteyu]

Nightwave could have quite easily been added to the game as a way of getting bonus resources instead of replacing the existing Alerts system.  My son has finished wave 1 completely and now he has nothing to do but fishing and mining and daily sortie

[-CdG-Zilchy]

7 minutes ago, Colesteyu said:

Nightwave could have quite easily been added to the game as a way of getting bonus resources instead of replacing the existing Alerts system.  My son has finished wave 1 completely and now he has nothing to do but fishing and mining and daily sortie

If your son is good enough to do all thr challenges, what does he need that could be gained previously from the alerts? Genuinely curious here.

[000l000]

People are complaining all day long because they want it all, but truth is that in any games there are things you won't be able to get because of you level/experience or whatever.

You can't get Umbral forma or a legendary arcane but if you've just started the game you don't even have unlocked your first Umbral frame through story mode yet and you most certainly are carried while trying to kill hydrolyst so yeah, some things aren't meant to be accessible to new players.

One can complain about new cosmetics being too far in the reward spectrum though, since it's only cosmetic i would have put that in the shop instead, currency being more easily available. People are really confused here, these are daily/weekly challenges, not daily rewards.

[(XBOX)Tatakai no Kami]

14 hours ago, marelooke said:

Ok, shilling, spreading confirmed misinformation and purposefully misinterpreting what I wrote. I'm done replying to you.

Bwahahaha! says the guy claiming to speak for all veterans. I have spread no misinformation, that was you, I just corrected you.

Sorry you don't like being wrong.

[(XBOX)Tatakai no Kami]

3 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

People are complaining all day long because they want it all, but truth is that in any games there are things you won't be able to get because of you level/experience or whatever.

You can't get Umbral forma or a legendary arcane but if you've just started the game you don't even have unlocked your first Umbral frame through story mode yet and you most certainly are carried while trying to kill hydrolyst so yeah, some things aren't meant to be accessible to new players.

One can complain about new cosmetics being too far in the reward spectrum though, since it's only cosmetic i would have put that in the shop instead, currency being more easily available. People are really confused here, these are daily/weekly challenges, not daily rewards.

I wouldn't surprised if in a year it either returns, or they put a "Where's the Wolf" pack on the store where you can buy the Hammer and his Cosmetics in a pack Like Stalker's.

[(XBOX)Tatakai no Kami]

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I'm more concerned about how I'll feel 2-3 seasons from now though. Currently, I'm having no issue playing. It was kind of refreshing to easily find a 1hr kuva crew. I get what they're trying to accomplish. 

Haha! I think my brain would bleed out of my eyes doing the 1-hour survivals. The good thing is I don't need to do them to be on track for the tier 30 rewards. I'm on track to get about 5k just from capturing the escapees this week.

[Hypernaut1]

2 hours ago, Zilchy said:

That will indeed be interesting. My fear is that constant knee jerk reactions will bully DE into making the weekly elite challenges something like "complete 3 capture missions"  or "successfully log in to your account". Exaggeration obviously but you get the idea. As it stands, even though it's not very challenging, I at least have something to do in the game.

As long as 1hr survival challenges are easily skippable, then I have no issue with them being included. 

I agree, I don't want DE to just make cupcake challenges. I also don't want to feel like I need to do then to keep at a comfortable pace. It'll take some balancing.

[TioMegaManX]

It would be great to have more alternatives for standing (like sigils) than just the three fugitives at random, hell, now a few eidolon hunts lose some time because those guys appear even twice in the same run, personally I am not doing 1 hour missions ever, so much for the bite sized content which is another great divide among players, I rarely play for one hour straight and I don't like the game's difficulty scaling system so I avoid any high level mission that is not a Sortie or the occasional ESO for leveling up, Nightwave offerings are OK but having the tokens expire puts pressure on me, it looks like I won't reach rank 30 this time around, another problem I have is, despite owning a ghost clan with people on it and having a few friends on my account I tend to play solo or with randos, so much that I almost never touched "endless mode" alerts or syndicate missions because they usually require the equivalent of two runs (ie, 10 min), this is the usual Warframe issue, people like me don't like to be trapped in a mission for X amount of time when there are missions where you can play at your own pace.

In short, make the Nightwave sigils give some standing at least.

[(PSN)nating51]

A solution to all this alerts VS nightwave thing could be:

- the old alert system for mods, potatoes, nitain

- nightwave for *all* cosmetic stuff (helmets, sigils, decorations, etc.)

 

...and putting umbra forma in a time-limited event it was not a great idea IMO.

In this way nightwave could stay as it is now, as the rewards would be only optional and not necessary game-wise.

Another thing that can be done in order to solve the ticking clock problem of NW is to make the "season" always available, only reset rank to 0 after 2 months (so less than 10 weeks), so that one can plan *when* and *how* to do this thing...and in this way the challenges could be even harder than now...

Edited March 6, 2019 by (PS4)nating51

[Wolfways]

9 hours ago, Vengeance_A said:

I would like u to point out on specific quests u find hard because as I said, they don't seem hard to me at all.
Sortie = can get carried easily there regardless of MR/exp as long as there is at least 1 player who knows what to do.
Syndicate runs = capture/exterminate can't be that hard and they are short (for ppl who don't have much time).
Kuva = eh go Limbo, sit in rift and press 2?
X type of damage = just switch to the frame or weapon with that damage type (like i did cold and blast with Redeemer p)
3 waves in ESO = same as sortie. Also Saryn press 4 can't be some 300IQ play
Perfect capture for floofs = sit invisible as Loki, pick animal that is bigger target (so, not owl or pobbers)
Assassination = u probably did already multiple of those, pick some fast ones like The Sergent
Invasion = same as assassination, just pick fast ones

Idk did I missed something from this and past week, the only one I could say 'screw this' was for Ayatan (and that u could do in Arb. missions in case u didn't have any or didn't want to waste plat on it)

So you don't find anything hard as long as you use specific frames and/or get carried.

Okay... 😏