Feels like nightwave did a lot of damage to the community

[Steel_Rook]

37 minutes ago, Ulvra said:

Sadly the toxicity has been there for ages. It's always been veterans vs new players, people who like to sit hours in a mission vs people who find challenge elsewhere, etc., however what Nightwave seem to have done is to bring that friction out in the open for everyone to see the ugliness of it. It's sad.

That's been my impression, as well. A lot of the trash-talking comes across as destructively bitter, where unhappy people are celebrating others being just as unhappy and elitist people are celebrating other people being locked out of content. Petty pride at the cost of the overall gaming experience, as it were. And yes, in this case I would lay the blame at DE's feet. Their stated goal with Nightwave was to coerce people into playing content they otherwise wouldn't. The result is players feeling pressured to engage in content they resent, complaining about it and being slagged by people who enjoy that content. There is no benefit to getting all of the players to play all of the things. A game as large as Warframe is never going to appeal to anyone in its entirety. Most veterans have lasted as long as they have by explicitly ignoring sections of the game - sometimes a majority of it - and sticking to just the activities they like. Thrusting people out of their own preferences and into each other's way is always going to create friction and bring deep-seated elitism to the forefront.

Reward systems which require engagement with most or all parts of the game will annoy most or all of the people because nobody enjoys everything. Simple as that.

[HexOmega111x]

Il y a 1 heure, Steel_Rook a dit :

Reward systems which require engagement with most or all parts of the game will annoy most or all of the people because nobody enjoys everything. Simple as that.

I like your post. It deserves another like but I do not agree with everything. 

Here is what a sample of 10k players think about nightwave. 10k players are enough to give a lot of credits to a survey.

Warframe - "Do You Like Nightwave ?" Poll Results & Feedback

 

Edited March 20, 2019 by HexOmega111x

[Steel_Rook]

2 hours ago, HexOmega111x said:

I like your post. It deserves another like but I do not agree with everything. 

Here is what a sample of 10k players think about nightwave. 10k players are enough to give a lot of credits to a survey.

Warframe - "Do You Like Nightwave ?" Poll Results & Feedback

While that's fair enough - 10K people is not nothing - I'm not entirely sure what statement you're making here that the survey is meant to support. Assuming you're addressing what you quoted, how does the survey relate to what I said? Not trying to troll - genuine question here since I don't want to just take a guess and put words in your mouth.

[Casey33]

Nightwave is  

[Fallen_Echo]

15 hours ago, Cibyllae said:

The community was always S#&$, now they just can't hide it from the newer player base. Before they got their rocks off to helping people, thats how they inflated their egos. Now, they inflate by bashing new players. Vets were never your friends, you just thought they were. It was fake kindness the whole time. Now you get to see the true colors of the community.

Whenever i told people that warframe communuty is essentially some guys hanging around in small lifeboats above a toxic waste ocean, i got ridiculed that its not true and everybody is nice but when you take a look at the reddit page to see someone trying to turn things for newbies in nightwave they get negativity and insults for it.

[HexOmega111x]

il y a 25 minutes, Steel_Rook a dit :

While that's fair enough - 10K people is not nothing - I'm not entirely sure what statement you're making here that the survey is meant to support. Assuming you're addressing what you quoted, how does the survey relate to what I said? Not trying to troll - genuine question here since I don't want to just take a guess and put words in your mouth.

Your post is meant to describe the reality, the consequences of this new system on the community and I realy like the intelligence of your words. 

This survey proves that your post is totally right but I'm pretty sure that whatever system they would have put on the table the result would have divided the community unless it had just been a visual overhaul of the alert system. 

Where I disagree is when you say that the blame is on DE. They simply wanted to evolve. Bring something new. It was a risky move but this survey tent to prove that it was not such a bad move after all.

Now the community "job" is to adapt to this change and make it work. And I agree with the idea that this system is not perfect but it has not yet matured just as the community. 

[Steel_Rook]

5 minutes ago, HexOmega111x said:

Where I disagree is when you say that the blame is on DE. They simply wanted to evolve. Bring something new. It was a risky move but this survey tent to prove that it was not such a bad move after all.

Ah, got it - I see what you mean. Yeah, my initial assumption was pretty off-base, so I'm glad I didn't go with it 🙂

The reason I blame DE is because the issues with Nightwave are inherent in its stated design goal - to get players to engage in content they otherwise might not have. There's no way to accomplish this goal without running players through content they don't enjoy, because that's the whole point. No game is ever going to appeal to any individual player's exact preferences, thus a healthy relationship between a game and its playerbase is rooted in choice. Players get to choose what activities they partake in and what activities they don't, to at least some extent. And while developers can't really offer perfect choice for all players, they can still hedge their bets by offering multiple paths to the same reward.

Nightwave does the exact opposite. It tries to coerce all of the players into doing all of the content, thus ensuring that everyone is going to end up doing something they resent. And yes, I realise that the system is intended to be "optional," but the psychology it employs to motivate people is the fear of missing out - an entirely negative emotion. The system's design also heavily incentivises some of its most niche content - the Elite Weeklies. The result is a feeling of having to choose the lesser of two evils: Do I play something I hate and not have fun, or do I ignore the system and feel like I'm being left behind by the design? From a psychology perspective, I don't see a positive outcome within those constraints. Short-term, maybe, while the high of new content and rewards still lasts, but I fear this is going to collapse long-term.

Honestly, Nightwave strikes me as an attempt to copy Fortnite's Battle Pass design without really considering if it's appropriate for Warframe and its community.

[--END--Rikutatis]

17 hours ago, (NSW)Bromsson said:

 However the community was always there to not only notify me of an important aura/potato/nightmare mod to collect but also offered to get me there and even help me with the mission! Some would even go as far as collecting the auras for newer players! 

You got the older playerbase telling the newer playerbase they are not entitled to partake on some of the content and the newer playerbase that's just disgruntled because they pretty much need to be able to hit the wolf cred marks before the rewards rotate.

I hope this doesn't sound mean or toxic, it's not my intention to, but I genuinely disagree with the sentiment that getting carried or taxi'ed around by older players is a good thing for the game that should be promoted. It's just my stance as a gamer. 

When I first started I refused to play on public or to get taxi'ed anywhere. I only moved on to the next planet or took part in any content when I was sure my builds could handle it. I refused to do sorties until I was satisfied enough with my "endgame" builds at the time. 

I absolutely believe that not everyone is entitled to partake in every piece of content and reward, unless they are willing to engage in the mechanics and gameplay that will get them there. 

With that said, I do think nightwave could benefit from a wider list of challenges, some easier and more accessible and others harder and more hardcore and let players choose from that list to reach the weekly standing cap. Do more of the easier ones or less of the harder ones.

[HexOmega111x]

il y a une heure, Steel_Rook a dit :

... 

This is the most interesting post I have read on this subject here. A totally new way to see this situation for me. 

So what you say is that this system had no chance to be adopted by the community simply because of its nature. The idea itself was a mistake at the very beginning. Because I can't imagine the nightwave system relying on simple missions like alerts did.

And when you say :

il y a une heure, Steel_Rook a dit :

but I fear this is going to collapse long-term

It make sense.

I wonder how DE will manage this for the next episode. I doubt that they can simply make a rollback on the alerts system. 

Edited March 20, 2019 by HexOmega111x

[(PSN)Elloshin]

23 hours ago, Soldier1312 said:

Actually the longest tasks are probably bounties. >.<

and the rgn based ones like fishing and mining. And now the forma one taking the longest. Depends on how fast you can level your weapons and what you already have as resources. 
But I would say that it will take at least 40h24m for me. I had made some calculation before, but then I my computer shutdown. 

[(PSN)Elloshin]

6 hours ago, HexOmega111x said:

This is the most interesting post I have read on this subject here. A totally new way to see this situation for me. 

So what you say is that this system had no chance to be adopted by the community simply because of its nature. The idea itself was a mistake at the very beginning. Because I can't imagine the nightwave system relying on simple missions like alerts did.

And when you say :

It make sense.

I wonder how DE will manage this for the next episode. I doubt that they can simply make a rollback on the alerts system. 

There is no need for a rollback. They can go side by side. Because for one this new system is a failure compared to the old alerts. The only thing it adds is the seasonal rewards by ranking up yet another syndicate. This time however we don't need to trade reps and resources for ranking up. 

As for the alerts stuff, I got now even way less for more effort. If it's not worth the trouble at the end of this season, I am not going to invest much more of my doing these things. Way to much effort for something that will not even engage me, let alone turn my effort in to beneficial rewards. 



 

[Test-995]

tbh i feels like everything in nightwave is WIP(or "first time") for now, so next series would be much much better and more friendly to newbies. 

[(PSN)psycofang]

I dont think it did. Im seeing the same amount of toxicity as before.

The forums have exploded into another whine fest and DE ,lately, has seemingly been ignoring certain kinds of feedback or have made very vague comments.

[Kuldor]

14 hours ago, HexOmega111x said:

I like your post. It deserves another like but I do not agree with everything. 

Here is what a sample of 10k players think about nightwave. 10k players are enough to give a lot of credits to a survey.

Warframe - "Do You Like Nightwave ?" Poll Results & Feedback

 

That's easily the most biased survey I've ever seen.

[Teljaxx]

Because alerts were such a core system to Warframe, they needed to be for everybody. They did a pretty good job of this, for various reasons, like taxis, and the lack of an overall time limit. Since Nightwave is supposed to be a replacement for alerts, it needs to be for everybody as well. It is not. This is mostly because it is a single, extremely rigid set of things that has to somehow satisfy every single one of the millions of people that play Warframe. This is impossible. And no matter how DE tweaks it, it is going to upset a large group of players. Make it easier? People want more challenge! Make it harder? Now its too inaccessible!

Same with the rewards. DE specifically said that one of the main goals of Nightwave was to give players more control over what rewards they are working towards. Yet, almost all of the exclusive rewards are locked into a strict rank based order. So no matter what items you personally care about, you have to get them in exactly the same order as everyone else. Don't care about Noggles? Too bad, its what you get at rank 5. Don't need more forma? There are six of them waiting for you, whether you like it or not.

Basically, Nightwave expects every single person to play it exactly the same way, thus completely removing any choice from the equation. One of warframe's greatest strengths has always been giving players a choice in what they do, when they do it, and how they do it. So Nightwave does not fit in with the rest of the game at all, because you either do it just like this, or you get nothing.

This is why it feels like the entire community has been turned against itself. Nightwave is trying to sit right in the middle to be safe and appease as many people as possible. But instead, it has done the opposite, and frustrated almost everyone for entirely different reasons. And because DE is basically the equivalent of the king in their castle, safe from the angry peasants of the forums, where do we turn our frustrations? The only target in easy reach: Each other. "This is the fault all those elitists who only care about the challenge." "Everyone that hates Nightwave just feels entitled to get everything for free." Etc.

When something as divisive as Nightwave comes along, it can be really easy to forget that we are all here for the same reason. We all love the game, and want it to be the best it can be. Even though we all have our different opinions on how to achieve that, I seriously doubt any of us truly want to ruin the game, or let it die.

[Steel_Rook]

15 hours ago, HexOmega111x said:

This is the most interesting post I have read on this subject here. A totally new way to see this situation for me. So what you say is that this system had no chance to be adopted by the community simply because of its nature. The idea itself was a mistake at the very beginning. Because I can't imagine the nightwave system relying on simple missions like alerts did.

That is my belief, yes. Given the stated intent of the Nightwave system, I don't see any way in which it could succeed long-term. However, that doesn't mean Nightwave itself is doomed to failure or that it needs to be removed - far from it. The core framework is fairly solid, even if I have subjective disagreements with it. I have every reason to believe this could become an awesome, satisfying system for most people over time, but I feel a fundamental shift in mentality needs to happen. I hope future seasons give us more choice in what content we play and less restriction on when we play it, at least to some extent.

I don't want to go into specific suggestions as this doesn't seem to be the topic, but in short: Nightwave has legs, but it also has a long way to go.

 

15 hours ago, HexOmega111x said:

It make sense. I wonder how DE will manage this for the next episode. I doubt that they can simply make a rollback on the alerts system. 

Well, a couple of things here. As I said above, I don't think removing Nightwave is necessary or even beneficial. It's a decent system that they can fix without junking it. More importantly, though, they can still restore Alerts without removing Nightwave. The two systems have almost nothing in common bar a few shared rewards, so I personally see no reason why they couldn't co-exist. Personally, I'd say pull Nitain out of both systems (make it a rare drop resource similar to Tellerium, Argon and Neurodes), then just let both systems run in parallel.

For me personally, the loss of Alerts sucked for reasons mostly independent of rewards, however. They gave me a way to just jump into a random mission and play the game without having to worry about setting goals for myself. If DE can create some kind of "Quick Play" system where I can click a button and be given a choice of a few randomly-generated missions to play, then I'd probably take that over Alerts. One of my own primary sources of burnout in Warframe is repeating the same content over and over again due to the "reward bottleneck" issue prevalent through the game's reward systems. Alerts let me play the game without worrying about that, and losing them has made it harder for me to stay active.

 

4 hours ago, Teljaxx said:

Basically, Nightwave expects every single person to play it exactly the same way, thus completely removing any choice from the equation. One of warframe's greatest strengths has always been giving players a choice in what they do, when they do it, and how they do it. So Nightwave does not fit in with the rest of the game at all, because you either do it just like this, or you get nothing.

Agreed. A bit off-topic, but I feel all of DE's recent approach to rewards and systems suffers from a similar issue. All of the new rewards are gated behind whatever one single activity came out last with no way to circumvent the RNG or get them anywhere else. When Fortuna was young, everything was gated behind Solaris United standing. When the Orb Heists came out, everything was gated behind the Profit-Taker. Now that we have the Exploiter, everything is gated behind that. And when they move on to Railjack or whatever, these systems will be left as is. A year down the line, a new player who wants to earn, say, Hyldrin will have only a single point of content to run, which happens to be a high-level team-centric really long boss fight. If you don't have the build or don't like boss fights or don't like Fortuna or don't have the time to grind a 20-minute fight over and over again, you're SOL.

DE have solved this reward bottleneck problem before. They solved it with Void Fissures, they solved it with Baro Ki'Teer, they solved it with Invasions. To date, they've designed multiple systems which allow people to play a broad spectrum of content at their own pace and still earn a wide range of rewards without really having to partake in content they don't like. Yet almost all of the new additions - certainly all of them since I started playing - have been entirely bottlenecked. For all its range of activities, Nightwave's tight schedule makes it just as bottlenecked.

[HexOmega111x]

Il y a 9 heures, Kuldor a dit :

That's easily the most biased survey I've ever seen.

Any particular reason for this affirmation that you want to share with us? 

[Kuldor]

40 minutes ago, HexOmega111x said:

Any particular reason for this affirmation that you want to share with us? 

2 options to say yes, 2 options for I don't care and another option for a non definitive "nah..."? you tell me.

Edited March 21, 2019 by Kuldor

[HexOmega111x]

il y a 39 minutes, Kuldor a dit :

2 options to say yes, 2 options for I don't care and another option for a non definitive "nah..."? you tell me.

I still don't see the problem. You like it, you say yes. You don't like it, you say no. You like it but not exactly how it is, you say yes but. If you don't care, you say I don't care or go for the cookies because you don't have an opinion.

I'm in the 25% who likes it. But what realy matter is the "yes but" answer. Nightwave is not a catastrophic feature like some players like to describe it. But almost 60% have a problem with nightwave which means that DE must do something about it.

Edited March 21, 2019 by HexOmega111x

[ikkabotz]

Game wasn't always toxic. Players respond to change. Personally feel like Warframe has been lost in long term trajectory due to some very poor decisions in development and it's only a matter of time for the fallout to be even more visible. There has been some obvious neglect and wasted time over developing features nobody asked for over and over again. Add to that taking away things nobody wanted to go. Need to stop wasting time "finding problems" nobody placed emphasis on and get to focusing on delivering core competencies in demand to the game. There's been a severe neglect to that concept for a very very long time.  

The "honeymoon" phase to this game has been over, not sure why people still pander to that so hard. I was exhausted with it ages ago. We're six years deep into the game despite whatever new faces keep arriving to write off excuses. There will be a point the influx and ingestion of new players dies off and the obvious holes to the game can't be papered over. The death of this game, like anything is inevitable. I'm entitled to nothing, but I am disappointed with how it's going to arrive (is arriving) to its own demise. 

The core issue is development has been taking away how the game feels to play constantly. Restricting and punishing the core gameplay while not making needed enhancements is just baffling. They spend a lot of time circling the wagons around things completely removed from the core issues internal to the gameplay WHILE YOURE IN GAME PLAYING. It completely baffles me. There's a certain type of immunity to criticism to how the game feels when played that has done nothing but harm the game long term. I stopped playing this game because it's no longer fun to play. Pretty simple concept. 

Edited March 22, 2019 by ikkabotz

[NinjaFramer]

19 hours ago, HexOmega111x said:

I still don't see the problem. You like it, you say yes. You don't like it, you say no. You like it but not exactly how it is, you say yes but. If you don't care, you say I don't care or go for the cookies because you don't have an opinion.

I'm in the 25% who likes it. But what realy matter is the "yes but" answer. Nightwave is not a catastrophic feature like some players like to describe it. But almost 60% have a problem with nightwave which means that DE must do something about it.

Not sure what has happened. I saw it before and it was easier for some. This Nightwave is confusing. I'm MR3. What the heck! Some of the challenges are just over the top. I really love Warframe but it's harder than I thought. I played with other people who just got mad at me. 

[NinjaFramer]

21 hours ago, HexOmega111x said:

I still don't see the problem. You like it, you say yes. You don't like it, you say no. You like it but not exactly how it is, you say yes but. If you don't care, you say I don't care or go for the cookies because you don't have an opinion.

I'm in the 25% who likes it. But what realy matter is the "yes but" answer. Nightwave is not a catastrophic feature like some players like to describe it. But almost 60% have a problem with nightwave which means that DE must do something about it.

All I know is that the game is pretty hard. Lol. I'm MR3 and oh my gosh! I love Warframe and Nightwave is cool but there's no way I can make it in the game on my own. Lol. I played with other people but it wasn't a good thing. They got mad because I am a bad player. So my experience with others wasn't a good one. I'm trying on my own but I'm not going to make it. Sad. It's a good game.

[NinjaFramer]

Players are supposed to help others but I'm seeing a lot of discord. Doesn't look like player friendly. I'm only a MR3. I love the game but I don't need haters.

[Myopic_Snow]

Basically the idea in nightwave is fun, but currently the ones who need the rewards the most are most likely to not get them since the credits are so hard to get to with the elite challenges containing 11% of each weeks points, while demanding end game setups/faction standing to do.

And older players have to give MUCH more effort to help them if they would even bother to do so, thus making the previous altruism dry up since the effort gets actually hard this time. I feel for the new guys, the current rotations are a bit unfair for them. There really should be double the amount of challenges with only 5% or so the points being elite challenges. So that the actual rewards do not shaft the new player over the old one.

[(PSN)x-SaadWejd-x]

OP may right and may not, ppl now are LIKE, DISLIKE, DON'T CARE

we always up for some change in warframe but i agree nightwave still need some balance and hope to start see more LIKE ppl than dislike.