Would a universal invulnerable dodge roll be better?

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Currently, I don't think bosses are as engaging as they could be. IMO, this is because there isn't a whole lot of demand for mechanical skill on my part. Bosses kind of just use big AOE attacks that you tank with ability stats or void mode, and then you just hold down the mouse button at things in the right order. If you gave everyone an invulnerable roll, you could then give bosses attacks that are more deliberate and threatening, it would probably feel less like farming on autopilot and more like an actual fight. Void mode already exists though, so maybe even let us continue shooting during a dodge (especially for the side-flips you can do while aiming) to further set it apart from void mode as a more timing-precise but more fluid and rewarding option. This would give squishier frames a fun buff in normal play too; it won't save you from that shotgun around the corner, but you could dodge Bombard rockets or something. Would this be overpowered? Maybe if you can shoot while dodging, as otherwise you'd just be trading survivability for damage just like void mode. It's not like it would save a squishy frame from a Heavy Gunner or Corpus Tech hosing them down, though. And a distinction between "enemies you can abuse dodge against" and "enemies you can't abuse dodge against" would probably add a bit of gameplay depth as well. Small note, rolling already has damage reduction, but it's only 75%.

also while im at it you should be able to reflect bombard rockets with a melee parry button because that would be sick

[Gabbynaru]

This?


I dunno, I only use it on Limbo. Loki and Mirage do just fine without it. Spam rolling won't help enemies and bosses become more of a threat when they can't hit/see me to begin with.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Gabbynaru

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

The problem isn't the big boss attack that will be telegraph to allow players time needed for quick thinking ways to avoid them. The problem comes when one is in the simulacrum with 20 heavy gunner. Now try to roll through every shots fire. Coming from monster hunter, the game does have moment of invincibility during rolling. It doesn't work when you are fighting two large monster in the same area. Once you have three together plus the small monsters, the best option is just to run away.

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On 2019-05-07 at 11:10 AM, Gabbynaru said:

This?

The point of making it universal would be so that DE can make better bosses. Rolling guard is fine and all (heck, I even use it to nullify Valkyr's stored Hysteria damage) but it takes up a mod slot and has a cooldown, so it wouldn't lend itself to better boss design. 

On 2019-05-07 at 11:45 AM, (PS4)jaggerwanderer said:

The problem comes when one is in the simulacrum with 20 heavy gunner.

I literally said that in my post that this is what would keep it from being overpowered. 

I think both of you are saying "this wouldn't help that much right now" and missing the bigger picture of "if this was added, they could change bosses to be more fun to fight against"

[SordidDreams]

On 2019-05-07 at 6:10 PM, Gabbynaru said:

This?

I dunno, I only use it on Limbo. Loki and Mirage do just fine without it. Spam rolling won't help enemies and bosses become more of a threat when they can't hit/see me to begin with.

That's a great example of a long-standing problem DE has: "Hey, this is a great way to improve the gameplay experience! Now let's implement it as a mod, so that its opportunity cost prevents the vast majority of players from using it."

[Vox_Preliator]

I don't think it would really help, even moving forward.

I just don't think it'd change anything for Warframe, where just standing back and dodging an attack entirely, or using abilities to make attacks negligible, are available options.  Dodging through an attack while invincible works, sure, but not being there works just as well.  If attacks are telegraphed enough that a dodge roll would be useful, leaving would still be faster and easier, or just laughing while it bounces off of high armor, damage reduction, and/or invulnerability though easier means.

And if the attacks are designed to force using this mechanic over leaving or tanking, such as dangerous giant shockwaves, then it just means that every so often a boss will say "Alright guys, stop everything you're doing and get ready to hope your timing is right," and I just don't see that as particularly engaging or interesting.

[Nash]

1 hour ago, Vox_Preliator said:

I don't think it would really help, even moving forward.

I just don't think it'd change anything for Warframe, where just standing back and dodging an attack entirely, or using abilities to make attacks negligible, are available options.  Dodging through an attack while invincible works, sure, but not being there works just as well.  If attacks are telegraphed enough that a dodge roll would be useful, leaving would still be faster and easier, or just laughing while it bounces off of high armor, damage reduction, and/or invulnerability though easier means.

And if the attacks are designed to force using this mechanic over leaving or tanking, such as dangerous giant shockwaves, then it just means that every so often a boss will say "Alright guys, stop everything you're doing and get ready to hope your timing is right," and I just don't see that as particularly engaging or interesting.

I beg to differ, it would change the direction warframe is currently in AKA Tank&Spank, bosses should always have dangerous attacks that you should be dodging or avoiding so you don't get killed its what separates a Boss from a normal enemy. Then to add on to that have MAJOR attacks that requires you to use timing and your in game knowledge to avoid. It has to be a Mix. This is particular good in a group setting.

Prime example from a game I came from.

Spoiler

 

An Ingame Example with Ash Prime

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Another In game Example with Equinox using Rolling Guard

Spoiler

 

Another Example using Excalibur Umbra using Rolling Guard and Bullet Jump

Spoiler

 

This is engaging flowing warframe combat that isn't shown because there is no need because Inaros, Chroma, etc exist. But remove the fact that you can tank this hit and warframe becomes a whole new game. Both Warframes and Bosses need another look at. Because its there. This is particularly the same Reason why I don't even play Chroma or Inaros because of how cheap it makes the game.

Edited May 9, 2019 by _Behemot

[(PSN)drollive96]

This ain't dark souls

[Nash]

1 hour ago, (PS4)drollive96 said:

This ain't dark souls

Noooooo you don't say, most games have a dodging mechanic, All DMC games, Dark Souls 1-3, Vindictus, FF15, and the list goes on. Or would you rather prefer something as primitive as touch damage or attacks that you can't avoid like Maplestory?

Even Maplestory who Lives and BREATHES that sort of crap decided that it needed to stop and tried implementing something that is close to what she is saying, despite the game being 2D

 

Edited May 9, 2019 by _Behemot

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

So this kind of fight but in warframe?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYTRLgowo-I

[Nash]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)jaggerwanderer said:

So this kind of fight but in warframe?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYTRLgowo-I

Pretty much, but with a slower and smoother pace of warframe.

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

I don't know if a slower pace is okay. Imagine an eidolon attacking us at that speed. A faster pace and it'll just be a bullet hell senario.

[Nash]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)jaggerwanderer said:

I don't know if a slower pace is okay. Imagine an eidolon attacking us at that speed. A faster pace and it'll just be a bullet hell senario.

How an eidolon attacks atm is the pace I'm talking about. A lil bit faster wouldn't be that bad.

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

Eidolon attack sequence is slow for me. I can just bullet jump across it then attack again. I'm not against the idea of having moment of invincibility during rollling. Rolling guard is a great mode for squishy glasscannon frames. The problem comes when there's just too much to aviod. Rolling isn't going to save you.

[Teridax68]

Irrespective of the current design of bosses, what the OP is proposing is a mechanic that works really well in any game with a dodge roll, precisely because i-frames while dodging tend to make the dodge feel really responsive, and tend to give the player finer control over their actions, which is precisely what Warframe already aims to do with its movement system. Giving the player a 100% dodge chance while rolling, rather than a general 75% damage reduction, would likely make the move feel more responsive, and useful in combat for more than just repositioning.

With respect to bosses and enemies, though, I also agree that it would make for significantly easier balancing, because currently one of the main problems with a lot of recent boss fights in Warframe is that they or the enemies around them have a bunch of attacks that are undodgeable, e.g. homing rockets, super-accurate hitscan projectiles, and so on. This is particularly painful for squishy frames, whose only real means of surviving those attacks right now is to go into Operator mode, which is notoriously unreliable in multiplayer due to Operator toggling being server-side, rather than client-side (so there's bound to be lag). Having dodge rolling grant perfect dodging while in action would offer a measure of survivability to squishy frames in tune with Warframe's original intent to encourage mobility as a means of damage evasion. Rolling Guard would in this respect still be viable, because it would add extra seconds of immunity, plus status cleansing, which the basic roll still wouldn't offer.

[Greenshockclaw]

17 hours ago, Vox_Preliator said:

I don't think it would really help, even moving forward.

I just don't think it'd change anything for Warframe, where just standing back and dodging an attack entirely, or using abilities to make attacks negligible, are available options.  Dodging through an attack while invincible works, sure, but not being there works just as well.  If attacks are telegraphed enough that a dodge roll would be useful, leaving would still be faster and easier, or just laughing while it bounces off of high armor, damage reduction, and/or invulnerability though easier means.

And if the attacks are designed to force using this mechanic over leaving or tanking, such as dangerous giant shockwaves, then it just means that every so often a boss will say "Alright guys, stop everything you're doing and get ready to hope your timing is right," and I just don't see that as particularly engaging or interesting.

More options for avoiding damage never hurts. There's a bunch if scenarios where it'd be way better to go for an invincible dodge roll than bullet jumping away, and vice versa

 

Suprised there's been no mention of enter the gungeon in a thread about dodge rolling

Edited May 10, 2019 by Greenshockclaw

[Steel_Rook]

On 2019-05-07 at 7:00 PM, continue said:

If you gave everyone an invulnerable roll, you could then give bosses attacks that are more deliberate and threatening, it would probably feel less like farming on autopilot and more like an actual fight.

Problem 1: What about Warframes whose ability set revolves around BEING tanky and eating shots to the face, though? Designing boss encounters with AoEs which HAVE to be dodged sort of sidelines an entirely subset of builds. Bosses are already immune to control, status and most abilities as it is. Allowing them to disregard damage mitigation on top of that reduceds the game to a DPS check even more so than it already is.

Problem 2: The vast majority of the danger posed by most bosses isn't posed by the boss itself, but rather the mess of "adds." The Profit-Taker Orb's abilities are fairly simple to dodge. The 20 or so Corpus who spawn around it and constantly pour fire into your back, not so much. And even if you took away the additional enemy spawns, some bosses still throw so much S#&$ at you that they're damn near impossible to dodge around. Eidolons, for instance, constantly rain homing projectiles from the sky without actually doing anything, meaning that you're constantly eating damage no matter what you do. At that point, why bother to dodge anything?

To be perfectly honest, I don't believe this game needs a dodge roll in the first place. The slide already works well in most situations a dodge roll would, and it's a bit more apropos of the whole "space ninja" thing than a Dark Souls roll. I'd go one further, in fact - replace the baseball slide with a The Surge standing-up-slide, give that a few "invulnerability frames" and use it for both traversal and combat. While we're at it, give us the same slide in the air with no height dropoff. There's too much redundancy in movement abilities in Warframe right now, as far as I'm concerned.

 

21 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

That's a great example of a long-standing problem DE has: "Hey, this is a great way to improve the gameplay experience! Now let's implement it as a mod, so that its opportunity cost prevents the vast majority of players from using it."

And then there's that, yes. It honestly feels like a lot of Augment and Syndicate mods were intended to be balance changes to their respective item, but got added as mods, instead. Consequently, next to nobody uses them because it's simpler to just use something else, instead.

Edited May 10, 2019 by Steel_Rook