Some Math for Ember which proves how pathetic her DPS is...

[000l000]

Le 15/06/2019 à 06:29, (PS4)FK2P a dit :

I saw this math somewhere in a post and I would like to bring it forward for further attention.

Ember is NOT a DPS warframe anymore. She was in 2013, but now she is in desperate need of utility. If anyone can prove otherwise I need video evidence.

World on fire deals, Base Damage x 200% Power Strength x (Accelerant x Power Strength)+ 100% Damage Boost from Ramp Up 
= 400 x 2 x (2.5 x 2) x 2 = 8000 per tick of WoF

Bear in mind this has a 2000% damage multiplier, and this means to kill a level 80 grineer it would take 50 ticks of world on fire. This is only killing the enemy within a range of 7 meters.

Basically, use revenant... he can output 20.000 damage per tick which changes damage type to suit weaknesses to all enemies in a huge 50 meter radius and ticks faster than ember. Oh and he’s invulnerable. Also bear in mind that 8000 damage is vulnerable to armour... so... yeah... you won’t be seeing 8000 on screen. 50 ticks guys, to only level 80... you will be shot from across the room, or run out of energy, especially seeing how you have to include range mods on your build now. Level 80 isn’t even that high, like... 140 is getting there, 200 is the floor of high level, 300 is like woah we need to watch out for auras now. Etc.

You could also compare Loki's 4th damage to Revenant at this point. I'm still wondering why people keep comparing everything as if it was some kind of irrefutable argument. What we only should care about is "does this power is viable or not". If you want to kill everything in Revenant's own disco way, so play Revenant. But quite funnily you seem to forget that (1) Ember can still shoot at anything while channeling her 4th and (2) It has no sight limit and can damage anything at range.

Hopefully players aren't balancing the game, they keep complaining about power creep but still they want overpowered stuff implemented everywhere.

Your maths also are completely wrong since you forget that WoF is firing up to 5 times per explosion and also is dealing heat status damages. With 200% power strength and flash accelerant mod i'm dealing plenty of 10k damage occurences against all but grineers. That's certainly not 8k per sec or anything, level 120 enemies are melting and you still are able to shoot them in the face so what's wrong with that ?

As we're saying again and again, ember is fine, only armor scaling is an issue. Sure slightly more damage or range could be fine but Ember has been nerfed for reasons too.

Edited June 19, 2019 by 000l000

[(PSN)FK2P]

19 hours ago, 000l000 said:

You could also compare Loki's 4th damage to Revenant at this point. I'm still wondering why people keep comparing everything as if it was some kind of irrefutable argument. What we only should care about is "does this power is viable or not". If you want to kill everything in Revenant's own disco way, so play Revenant. But quite funnily you seem to forget that (1) Ember can still shoot at anything while channeling her 4th and (2) It has no sight limit and can damage anything at range.

Hopefully players aren't balancing the game, they keep complaining about power creep but still they want overpowered stuff implemented everywhere.

Your maths also are completely wrong since you forget that WoF is firing up to 5 times per explosion and also is dealing heat status damages. With 200% power strength and flash accelerant mod i'm dealing plenty of 10k damage occurences against all but grineers. That's certainly not 8k per sec or anything, level 120 enemies are melting and you still are able to shoot them in the face so what's wrong with that ?

As we're saying again and again, ember is fine, only armor scaling is an issue. Sure slightly more damage or range could be fine but Ember has been nerfed for reasons too.

Loki’s 4 is a disarm, revenant’s 4 is a DPS. 

Two of the biggest problems this year for warframe is how DPS and CC roles will continue in the game. As this happens we see a lot of content which has caused ember, a flat dps warframe, and vauban, a flat CC frame to come under fire and be recognised as the worst frames in the game.

The reason that ember gets nerfed time and time again is because her abilities need to be changed outright. The game has moved on from 2014, and essentially left her as a trash clearing frame, and that has seemingly been nerfed now also. BUT THATS NOT THE BIGGER ISSUE - DE are confused wether DPS warframes should outdamage weapons, but I think if they are designed solely for this purpose that YES they should far outdamage weapons, but the way in which they do this is completely contraversial. some people think that they need to change out the role of DPS altogether since its not exactly welcomed by players to have entire rooms cleared of enemies before they even arrive. So where does that leave ember? Nerfed to the ground. Embers rework is more of a ‘game decision’ that will have to be carefully implemented. Her rework is extremely important because it will define the core DPS role going forward. Will weapons be dealing the damage, or will frames be nuking the damage in their respective role, OR will DPS frames use players input to scale their damage further and further. 

Crowd control is another subject of concern, it has basically gone like this.

2014. (LoR) Lockdown all enemies and you can’t die unless you run out of damage >> 2016. Game becomes boring >>(eidolon era) Add enemies that are immune to CC >>(hostile mergers era) CC Warframes become irrelevant becuase the newest content is immune to their kit >> Vauban gets a buff to add ore versatility to his kit, possibly adding a defensive structure, or gadgets with more variation other than simply holding up weak enemies

Edited June 20, 2019 by (PS4)FK2P

[Blexander]

On 2019-06-19 at 12:12 PM, Ordosan said:

ya. they nerfed her range over time at the cost of more str. but worst eff

honestly have 1 positive at the cost of 2 neg is really the BS part ((I'd been find if the range shrank but it didnt spike up in cost...

but the real change was to combat the "semi-afk" play style of her and banshee. ((and the people complaining about starchart ember...but ember lost her overheat because of "dojo duals" so...what do I know.

Here's the thing, the efficiency nerf is not bad. It stops people from turning 4 on and forgetting about it. The range nerf is 100% uncalled for, and the damage before a 100% charge being very low gimps her a lot because, check this out: Her 4 has a status chance proc that scales with strength. Meaning, if you went full strength, her 4 would proc the heat status very often (idk the exact math, let's say it's 60% status chance with 200% strength), and because heat procs don't overwrite OR stack, means she can't proc a stronger DoT because:

a) the initial weak heat DoT would keep getting refreshed because of how S#&$ heat procs are
b) her range is so low on 100% charge that you would NEED to be within melee range to even do the 2.2k damage she does

The range nerf and heat damage being ass makes her 4 completely unusable. DPS or CC (firequake) build, neither work.

I can't comment on how she was when she had DR. I wasn't a player at the time.

[Mousarchy]

On 2019-06-20 at 8:49 AM, Blexander said:

Here's the thing, the efficiency nerf is not bad. It stops people from turning 4 on and forgetting about it. The range nerf is 100% uncalled for, and the damage before a 100% charge being very low gimps her a lot because, check this out: Her 4 has a status chance proc that scales with strength. Meaning, if you went full strength, her 4 would proc the heat status very often (idk the exact math, let's say it's 60% status chance with 200% strength), and because heat procs don't overwrite OR stack, means she can't proc a stronger DoT because:

a) the initial weak heat DoT would keep getting refreshed because of how S#&$ heat procs are
b) her range is so low on 100% charge that you would NEED to be within melee range to even do the 2.2k damage she does

The range nerf and heat damage being ass makes her 4 completely unusable. DPS or CC (firequake) build, neither work.

I can't comment on how she was when she had DR. I wasn't a player at the time.

fair enough. while I stand on my 1 for 1 clause. I can gladly give up on WHAT is nerfed/lost.
but for the most part the loss of range was to reduce the amount of semi-afk players. since they would turn it on and never turn it off and not having to actually move.

and the fun thing about her losing the DR was that apparently it was the dojo duals that was the breaking point for that nerf. but i mean...nezha AND gara have a MUCH better version of it now. 
in the past it was 91% DR with intensify-this was before DE impelmented the 90% cap and this was before corrupted/nightmare mods.-
and it was a half meter range. much shorter than the 2 and 2.5m range of nezha and gara respectfully ((both of which those 2 have scaling on them as well. be it defenseivly or offensivly.))

moral of the story...bring back overheat as her passive that procs after skill casts for a few seconds. and then ember can have a truley viable close range brawler/caster.

[Mu_Gera]

On 2019-06-15 at 1:18 PM, BlachWolf said:

Ember suffers from three problems. Firstly armor

Secondly, her dmg type is fire one of the worst damage types ingame

Garuda can force bleed procs, Wisp can proc Corrosive with her 4, Hildryn can strip armor in an AOE and Revenants 4 can proc corrosive on armor.

And the thing is even frost can reduce armor on his ult, I'm pretty sure it's completely fine if they come up with a way for ember to melt armor or something, maybe with accelerant or WoF's overheat.

As for fire damage itself, it's not the worst damage type (magnetic), but it is specifically the worst damage-over-time proc since it doesn't stack like the other DoT damage types. If that's fixed, than you both fix a bad damage type and give embers kit a good foundation along with any other fire abilities.

[000l000]

Le 20/06/2019 à 08:17, (PS4)FK2P a dit :

Loki’s 4 is a disarm, revenant’s 4 is a DPS. 

Two of the biggest problems this year for warframe is how DPS and CC roles will continue in the game. As this happens we see a lot of content which has caused ember, a flat dps warframe, and vauban, a flat CC frame to come under fire and be recognised as the worst frames in the game.

The reason that ember gets nerfed time and time again is because her abilities need to be changed outright. The game has moved on from 2014, and essentially left her as a trash clearing frame, and that has seemingly been nerfed now also. BUT THATS NOT THE BIGGER ISSUE - DE are confused wether DPS warframes should outdamage weapons, but I think if they are designed solely for this purpose that YES they should far outdamage weapons, but the way in which they do this is completely contraversial. some people think that they need to change out the role of DPS altogether since its not exactly welcomed by players to have entire rooms cleared of enemies before they even arrive. So where does that leave ember? Nerfed to the ground. Embers rework is more of a ‘game decision’ that will have to be carefully implemented. Her rework is extremely important because it will define the core DPS role going forward. Will weapons be dealing the damage, or will frames be nuking the damage in their respective role, OR will DPS frames use players input to scale their damage further and further. 

Crowd control is another subject of concern, it has basically gone like this.

2014. (LoR) Lockdown all enemies and you can’t die unless you run out of damage >> 2016. Game becomes boring >>(eidolon era) Add enemies that are immune to CC >>(hostile mergers era) CC Warframes become irrelevant becuase the newest content is immune to their kit >> Vauban gets a buff to add ore versatility to his kit, possibly adding a defensive structure, or gadgets with more variation other than simply holding up weak enemies

Speaking about DPS frames doesn't make any sense at all. This is Warframe, not Warcraft, All frames are supposed to deal damages at some point. Such things as CC or DPS frames are made up by people used to MMOlikes, and i'm kind of worried that many people here still didn't get that weapons are part of each frame's kit - I'm pretty sure no one at DE designed a frame to certainly never use any weapon in the entire game. Players are making up such stuff. That's why there's so much frustration about Ember's kit, she's way better with specific weapons and people still don't get that - so they whine, again because they want an upteenth lazy "spam 4th" frame and Ember doesn't deliver that anymore.

[Xepthrichros]

So DE doesn't like that she kills things behind walls, up till 30m or more and thus gave her range reduction over time. In the process they hurt her high level content play cos she is squishy and if she can't kill fast, then she instead ends up dead fast.

Some have suggested some form of damage reduction to her and I heard an older version of Ember actually had something like that, so I can get on board with that.

Alternately, a quick buff wold be to restore her World on Fire CC / Status Proc range back to maximum regardless of how long the ability is left on. But tweak the damage numbers a bit. Damage starts low, but ramps up after 10 seconds in a radius closer to Ember, while at the same time, there is a wider radius where the damage doesn't ramp up but enemies will continue to be knocked over by Fire Quake or panic from the flames of World on Fire. I.e. an inner radius where things do die, an outer radius where things are stunned.

Having said that, when I say low damage, I still do think the damage should be sufficient to trivialize low level content after modding. Why? Because I can trivialize low level content with Titania's 3, Vauban's 1 and Rhino's 4 as well. If anyone wants to balance around low level content, you might as well delete all the mods that boost damage of any sort. Mods are more or less Warframe's equivalent of leveling up a character in other role playing games and it is natural once you level up something beyond a certain point, you destroy weak content. In other RPGs where leveling is more obvious, you hear less of this "X or Y is OP please nerf" when said X or Y is only OP because you leveled it to level 100 and are using it to kill level 1 enemies. Naturally, it should destroy the level 1 enemy. 

Edited June 23, 2019 by Xepthrichros
Clarify certain points

[Blexander]

I have some extra info on her Fire Blast (which I'm unsure if it has been unnoticed or mentioned, or at least I haven't seen it).

Her Fire Blast's hitbox is weird/bad. Casting it while on the ground, enemies come in contact and take damage. If you're slightly airborne while casting (around 1m), certain enemies don't take damage despite visually being in the bottom side of Fire Blast's ring. Meaning, Infested enemies like chargers and crawlers somehow evade damage, which means it's the middle-top parts of the ring that actually deal damage instead of the whole thing.

Edited June 23, 2019 by Blexander

[(PSN)FK2P]

On 2019-06-22 at 8:26 PM, 000l000 said:

Speaking about DPS frames doesn't make any sense at all. This is Warframe, not Warcraft, All frames are supposed to deal damages at some point. Such things as CC or DPS frames are made up by people used to MMOlikes, and i'm kind of worried that many people here still didn't get that weapons are part of each frame's kit - I'm pretty sure no one at DE designed a frame to certainly never use any weapon in the entire game. Players are making up such stuff. That's why there's so much frustration about Ember's kit, she's way better with specific weapons and people still don't get that - so they whine, again because they want an upteenth lazy "spam 4th" frame and Ember doesn't deliver that anymore.

I don’t see how any weapon would help her besides some passives which would be extremely situational. Shooting stuff better is still shooting stuff. Why would I specifically chose ember when I can double the damage I put out and slow all enemies and negate damage with nova, or SINCE IM BASICALLY SHOOTING ANYWAY, just take banshee who has a squishy kit but can amplify damage, then I can use ANY weapon and still outdamage any weapon synergy ember could ever provide. I would prefer if her abilities worked, and could provide something other than basically nothing, like very weak CC, a short stun, and a small low damage projectile, that’s banshee without the sonar, it’s nothing. If the stun fails to effect a target, you have your gun, good luck mobility tanking your way out of that one. By the way, her 3 is broken anyway, as in- not just bad, physically not working. 

She’s a rusted showpiece, a relic. People play her because she’s the “punished” class. The one DE nerf time after time, and to prevail with her feels three times more impressive than working frames. It feels defiant to make her play well. Almost impossible but with enough crutches and knowing how to shoot, barely possible in high level. She’s the ‘unarmed’ option. The same reason people choose the ‘deprived’ class in dark souls. It’s edgy.

[(PSN)FK2P]

On 2019-06-16 at 8:42 AM, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

Been saying that world on fire isn't her main dps ability, but people still insist on using her as such. Just go with a flash accelerant build already and use armor strip weapons like pox with a heat dps weapon. DE should've just dropped the whole dps thing and WoF and gone the route of doubling the tick rate so that firequake could become good.

Never the less, she is advertised as a DPS and so she should function as one.

[birdobash]

They technically actually nerfed her damage in the last rework, since accelerant also multiplies in effectiveness with power strength, but the newer ember requires more range and efficiency than the old ember due to the ramp mechanic, it means you can't invest as much strength into your build. This lowers accelerants damage multiplier a lot, and even with the 2x damage from WoF the overall damage with accelerant now is actually lower than with accelerant before.

[(PSN)FK2P]

1 hour ago, birdobash said:

They technically actually nerfed her damage in the last rework, since accelerant also multiplies in effectiveness with power strength, but the newer ember requires more range and efficiency than the old ember due to the ramp mechanic, it means you can't invest as much strength into your build. This lowers accelerants damage multiplier a lot, and even with the 2x damage from WoF the overall damage with accelerant now is actually lower than with accelerant before.

Yeah, the range nerf would have worked if only she could kill anything over level 70. She has been consistently irrelevant since 2014. Even Vauban had roles in LOR, and has been semi useful since, ember has NEVER had a place in any content.

[birdobash]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)FK2P said:

Yeah, the range nerf would have worked if only she could kill anything over level 70. She has been consistently irrelevant since 2014. Even Vauban had roles in LOR, and has been semi useful since, ember has NEVER had a place in any content.

Just to go a bit off topic, although Vauban does need a rework, I found a pretty useful use for him in arbitration excavation, and that use is that his Bastille actually keeps enemies inside of it even if an arbitration drone links to those enemies in Bastille, although it only works like this if the enemies get caught by Bastille first before being linked to a drone, if they come into bastille already linked then they don't get affected. Still, very useful, but also super niche.

[Xolgys]

ember dps was always bad unless were talking about lvls below lv 50 since heat is just useless against anything with shields or armor. against infested with fossilized its basically the same issue. without any armor/shields its less of an issue but since her dmg doesnt scale there will always be a point where her dmg will just be pitiful. accelerant can delay that but since many build her for high range to kind of get the pre-nerf ember back, so to say, accelerant wont be that strong on such a build. sooner or later she turns into a cc frame, much like volt who only deals elec dmg with his 4 and later has to work with his shield to do things, rather than spamming 4 unless its 4x CP, then i guess the issue pops up a bit later too like its the case for ember.

 

Edited June 26, 2019 by Xydeth

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Am 16.6.2019 um 00:55 schrieb ES-Flinter:

Use her forth Augment mod in combination with a max Range build. On this way she becomes a good CC-frame.

Sorry for the bad Joke. Just wanted to post something in here so that this topic is again on the Top and hopefully more will read this.😬😬😬

Why use the augument though. Even without it, any fire procc sets panic Cc. Round it up with accelerant and you have permanent Cc without much to any effort.

[birdobash]

2 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Why use the augument though. Even without it, any fire procc sets panic Cc. Round it up with accelerant and you have permanent Cc without much to any effort.

WoF doesn't have a guaranteed status proc, it has a 35% chance to proc heat, that grows with power strength but as she can't build as much strength as you used to it's worse than before.

Also WoF only hits once every 2 - 4.5 seconds, so on average with like 35% status you're looking at an expected 6 seconds at the least before an enemy gets CCed.

Edited June 27, 2019 by birdobash

[(PSN)Crixus044]

On 2019-06-26 at 12:40 PM, (PS4)FK2P said:

Never the less, she is advertised as a DPS and so she should function as one.

She really isn't though. She's a nightmare to light armor targets. The only "role" stated in her description is Crowd Control. 

"Ember can super-heat the air which opens up surprising crowd-control possibilities."

World on Fire seems to never have been about kills or dps, but because people insist on playing low level missions, she was used as such. Back in the old days, rhino was considered a dps frame.  He was thought as God, because stomp would nuke low level enemies all day long, which was all people played. It wasn't until Phoenix Intercept that this changed.

[birdobash]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

She really isn't though. She's a nightmare to light armor targets. The only "role" stated in her description is Crowd Control. 

"Ember can super-heat the air which opens up surprising crowd-control possibilities."

World on Fire seems to never have been about kills or dps, but because people insist on playing low level missions, she was used as such. Back in the old days, rhino was considered a dps frame.  He was thought as God, because stomp would nuke low level enemies all day long, which was all people played. It wasn't until Phoenix Intercept that this changed.

I think people think shes advertised as a DPS frame (even I did, or do, idk if they ever specify outside her description) it still doesn't change the fact that she is sort of being falsely advertised.

1. Stated that's shes a nightmare for lightly armored foes, which isn't true because her damage is so low that even enemies without armor can take her damage completely fine, armor just makes it even worse but is a given as armor mitigates literally every other frame too.

2. Surprising crowd control abilities, which is almost completely false before her range nerf, and is even more so after the range nerf. Her supposed "crowd control" wasn't even built into her kit originally, it's the firequake AUGMENT! Since her range nerf firequake builds have become quite unusable because of that massively reduced range, which just means DE removed that chunk of utility from her.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

3 hours ago, birdobash said:

I think people think shes advertised as a DPS frame (even I did, or do, idk if they ever specify outside her description) it still doesn't change the fact that she is sort of being falsely advertised.

1. Stated that's shes a nightmare for lightly armored foes, which isn't true because her damage is so low that even enemies without armor can take her damage completely fine, armor just makes it even worse but is a given as armor mitigates literally every other frame too.

2. Surprising crowd control abilities, which is almost completely false before her range nerf, and is even more so after the range nerf. Her supposed "crowd control" wasn't even built into her kit originally, it's the firequake AUGMENT! Since her range nerf firequake builds have become quite unusable because of that massively reduced range, which just means DE removed that chunk of utility from her.

I can agree on the crowd control part 100%, which is why the nerf pissed me off and seemed to be a "line item fix" for DE's dislike if WoF kill sprees

Accelerant is a seriously underappreciated ability for dps though. Have a weapon modded for fire (or stand in a fire ring) and you got around 5x the dps of before with a build. Heat is naturally good against flesh. The cc is mediocre, but still.

Here's how i can describe it.

Ember =/= World on Fire

Ember = WoF, Accelerant, Fireball, AND Fire Blast.

Edited July 1, 2019 by (PS4)Crixus044

[TKDancer]

On 2019-06-19 at 8:18 AM, 000l000 said:

You could also compare Loki's 4th damage to Revenant at this point

thats a very stupid comparison tho? like, comparing 2 AoE DPS abilities is supposed to be the same as comparing a DPS ability to a disarming one? excuse me?

 

10 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

World on Fire seems to never have been about kills or dps

what is it about then? without the augment its only CC is from the short fire panic, it doesnt heal, it doesnt buff ember, doesnt protect her, doesnt move her...  if it isnt a DPS ability, what is it?

honestly i'd rather WoF be removed in favor of a better designed ability

Edited July 1, 2019 by TKDancer

[000l000]

Il y a 1 heure, TKDancer a dit :

thats a very stupid comparison tho? like, comparing 2 AoE DPS abilities is supposed to be the same as comparing a DPS ability to a disarming one? excuse me?

You could compare every single AoE ability in the entire game, that's doesn't make an argument out of it. Each frame has distinct features hence my comment about Loki's since his powers don't rely upon damage directly and no one complains about that, but it could have been anything else. Everyone wants every frame to compete with Saryn, that's stupid. People should really stop to compare anything, anywhere, anywhen - that's really poor reasoning.

Edited July 1, 2019 by 000l000

[TKDancer]

On 2019-07-01 at 5:04 AM, 000l000 said:

You could compare every single AoE ability in the entire game, that's doesn't make an argument out of it. 

why not? cause you decided so? obviously just saying "these 2 DPS abilities should work the same" is not productive, but thats *not* whats happening here

On 2019-07-01 at 5:04 AM, 000l000 said:

 Each frame has distinct features hence my comment about Loki's

yet they were talking about 2 similar abilities, 1 causes constant fire explosions around the frame for dmg, the other is constantly firing lasers around the frame for dmg, bringing up something like radial disarm is just arguing in bad faith: "oh yeah you think these 2 similar things have something in common? that obviously means this completely different thing ALSO has something in common, i am very smart!"

its just trying to sound smart but not actually being smart

On 2019-07-01 at 5:04 AM, 000l000 said:

Everyone wants every frame to compete with Saryn, that's stupid.

not exactly? post-rework saryn kinda became the gold standard of 'AoE death-dealing', its to be expected that people want similar abilities to be in the same ballpark when it comes to effectiveness, not because they want every frame to play the same, but because they want every frame to be effective

On 2019-07-01 at 5:04 AM, 000l000 said:

People should really stop to compare anything, anywhere, anywhen - that's really poor reasoning.

except its not? unless you think DE is gonna make it so that all 40 currently released frames and all future ones are completely unique, comparisons are to be expected

Edited July 2, 2019 by TKDancer

[(PSN)sister-hawk]

On 2019-06-14 at 11:29 PM, (PS4)FK2P said:

200 is the floor of high level

I support the message of this post but this is where you lost me. Not everyone is interested in doing multi hour long endless runs, nor is everyone interested in the op meta builds required to get there. For a lot of players, lvl 100 is the summit of our experience. I don’t think balance arguments should be made around lvl 200 and 300 enemies. That’s going to lead to a heavy skewing of the new and casual player experience.

[TKDancer]

6 hours ago, moostar95 said:

Agreed, if every frame played the same. It would be #*!%ing boring and awful way to balance the game. Ember needs a better rework though. 

wanting frames to be similarly effective =/= wanting frames to be play the same

[(PSN)Crixus044]

On 2019-07-01 at 2:19 AM, TKDancer said:

what is it about then? without the augment its only CC is from the short fire panic, it doesnt heal, it doesnt buff ember, doesnt protect her, doesnt move her...  if it isnt a DPS ability, what is it?

honestly i'd rather WoF be removed in favor of a better designed ability

I would as well, WoF ever since they made it a drain abilities has been nothing but trouble for DE.

I would like to see it act more like Thumper on the Elytron.