Self-Damage has to go or get a hard cap

[VanFanel1980mx]

If the purpose is to not just throw explosives at your feet I have to say is pretty bad and makes launcher weapons less viable overall, if self-damage "exploit" (aka, creativity) was also the problem a hard cap could also work, in fact, instead of patching and adding more trash code to the game just so you can make exceptions like denying self-damage buffs or strategies why not just make it so it won't go past 150-250? only a few frames can get past 5000 health currently and we got weapons that can go beyond that in a single shot, we still have the constant bugs where launchers collide with teammates and result on instant deaths, capped damage would allow people to be careful and use their launchers more often.

[WhiteMarker]

1 minute ago, VanFanel1980mx said:

we still have the constant bugs where launchers collide with teammates

And why is this a bug?
And why is it so difficult to not hit your team mates? Just don't use your Launcher in a cramped space...

[VanFanel1980mx]

2 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

And why is this a bug?
And why is it so difficult to not hit your team mates? Just don't use your Launcher in a cramped space...

Teammates getting in the way suddently, not even cramped spaces, this game is fast paced enough, sometimes teammates are running around, you line up a shot and then BOOM! they got in the way at the last second.

[Xaero]

I'd rather have the whole damage system rebalanced so that enemy EHP get closer to ours and our damage get closer to enemy damage.

Edited June 16, 2019 by Ksaero

[VanFanel1980mx]

1 hour ago, Ksaero said:

I'd rather have the whole damage system rebalanced so that enemy EHP get closer to ours and our damage get closer to enemy damage.

How's that exactly? I think it would be great but not sure how much DE would prefer to approach things... well, aside from just avoiding the topic.

[Xaero]

8 hours ago, VanFanel1980mx said:

How's that exactly? I think it would be great but not sure how much DE would prefer to approach things... well, aside from just avoiding the topic.

I really liked how they rebalanced damage system for conclave, would be nice to have something similar in the main game. No more one-shotting teammates or objectives under radiation proc, no more insta-killing yourself with an explosive weapon, and a huge buff for Nyx skillset.

[TheAdoringYesMan]

Very high quality post! However, please remember that DE are professionnals, among the best of the best in the video game industry. Do you really think they could have made a mistake, with self damage? That sounds very unlikely, but maybe you're right? I don't know.

[birdobash]

Self damage should base cap out at a percentile of your frames base health, say 75-90% of your base health, so it is always impossible to one shot yourself and you always have a chance to recover, but it is still punishing enough that you don't care about it in the first place.

If you were to shoot yourself once, that's fine, it was RNG, shooting yourself twice back to back however is a lot less likely (it can still happen) which means it would feel a lot better as launcher weapons would feel a lot more controlled yet still dangerous.

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

On 2019-06-16 at 6:17 PM, WhiteMarker said:

And why is this a bug?
And why is it so difficult to not hit your team mates? Just don't use your Launcher in a cramped space

Sir, I challenge you to use the Prisma Angstrum at all. 

Seriously, half the self damage weapons have charged shots and with lag, friends being self damage mirrors and dodgy level geometry - you just end up avoiding the gun.

On 2019-06-16 at 6:14 PM, VanFanel1980mx said:

If the purpose is to not just throw explosives at your feet I have to say is pretty bad and makes launcher weapons less viable overall, if self-damage "exploit" (aka, creativity) was also the problem a hard cap could also work, in fact, instead of patching and adding more trash code to the game just so you can make exceptions like denying self-damage buffs or strategies why not just make it so it won't go past 150-250? only a few frames can get past 5000 health currently and we got weapons that can go beyond that in a single shot, we still have the constant bugs where launchers collide with teammates and result on instant deaths, capped damage would allow people to be careful and use their launchers more often

I agree, in part, but self damage has to really hurt to be a drawback. It has to be enough to make you think twice about bringing the weapons, but not so much that you never bring it.

Try playing Revenant with Mesmer Skin (his 2) - you can survive self damage that would gib Inaros, but you lose all health down to 1 pt.

I think this is how it should work for all frames. Self damage should only kill you if below 50% health, otherwise it's capped such that you're left with 1pt of health and a knockback.

I mean, in that state you're probably doomed at higher levels, but you have a small chance to recover.

A small chance to recover seems fair to me.

[TheGrimCorsair]

Nah, it's fine as is.

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

There are by a significant degree far too many people demanding the system be removed at this point for anyone who says "nah it's fine as it is" to be considered to have a valid opinion. The trolls can believe what they want but DE should ignore them and take action to change how self damage works across the board. Either making self damaging weapons legitimately the most powerful weapons in the game as a fair trade off for the significant risk of using them, or just totally removing the physic once and for all given that it has never, ever, been a popular design choice given the mechanics of this game.

Adding more weapons with this wrong headed mechanic is only going to make people more frustrated and for really no good reason...

[OmegaVoid]

Have all the players complaining about the existence of self-damage in the game not noticed the staggeringly large amount of weapons available which do not deal self-damage at all?

Even if you want the MR, you can pocket-level dangerous weapons in multiplayer, then never use them again if you don't like their mechanics.

Hek, if you have Wukong you can level them solo without harm; just go hogwild with melee and let the Celestial Twin level your Ogris without fear!

Some of us enjoy the added challenge of using self-damaging weapons from time to time. My favourite was the Javlok, and I'm still miffed at how boring it is to use now.

[Oreades]

Well clearly it is a problem at some level because DE felt the need to add in a mod that reduces Self Damage by 90% and then buffed it to 99% and you can STILL one shot yourself with self damaging weapons. Cause 1% of 7000% of your Hp/Armor/Shields is still going to one shot you. 

I really don't get why they didn't just push that mod to 100% 

As to the "just git gud" crowd, there is a difference between being a baddie who regularly shoots at your feet and just being strait up unlucky. I've been trolled by everything from Infested running up in the last second to Arctic Eximus Nekros shadows and as far down as team mates who once they realize you're using a self damage weapon will make it their mission to try to jump in front of your shot so you kill yourself. When it comes to weapons like the Phasma, you don't get to choose when that thing lobbs it's mortar (yes preemptively you can cause it to shoot sooner BUT you can not hold off your shot once it's fully charged) so if something gets in your way or knocks you out of position you are simply SOL. 

Edited July 3, 2019 by Oreades

[OmegaVoid]

5 hours ago, Oreades said:

I really don't get why they didn't just push that mod to 100% 

Yeah. Or make it a special case where you could slot two copies of the mod on the same weapon to achieve 100%, like you can with Arcane Nullifier and such.

Or have it give a 90% chance to completely ignore self-inflicted damage and status procs, so you might one-shot yourself but mostly you'd get away with it.

But from where I stand the "problem" is that a lot of players who can't enjoy using self-damaging weapons are asking for a whole small class of weapons to be robbed of their defining characteristic.

Consider: when I mentioned Warfame to a friend at work, he said he liked it, but regretted choosing the Mk1 Paris as his starter weapon; he could hardly hit anything with it.

I myself very nearly took the Paris as my starter, thinking it'd be more interesting than the rifle. When I eventually got the Paris as my first bow... boy was I glad I took the Braton, 'cos I couldn't hit diddly-squat with a bow and arrow! Lol, I was bad enough with the Boltor!

And a while back, there was a new player in Region Chat asking how they could quickly replace the Paris with something hitscan, as they had the same issue.

So it seems like it's not very uncommon to find players who have difficulty with projectile weapons. What do they do?

Do they mob the devs demanding "We don't enjoy projectile weapons, they're a PITA so all weapons must be hitscan!"?

No. They use something else.

Want to blow away enemies by the handful without self-damage? Get an Arca Plasmor already.

[vaarnaaarne]

Well a bigger consideration with the "it's a drawback" argument is that there's no real BENEFIT that these weapons have. All of them are at best substandard, most are straight-up inferior, even among AoE weapons. Staticor and Ignis Wraith don't have self-damage, and outperform every self-damage weapon. *Catchmoon* has no self-damage. The self-damage weapons simply do not perform anywhere near strong enough to provide any sort of justification for the supposed drawback.