[Maiming Strike] and Dominant Strategy - Why [Maiming Strike] Hurts Warframe as a Whole

[nslay]

1 minute ago, Alpha56 said:

The solution is to BAN definitely macro of the game.

Just do it DE. 

Yeah! I tried to reproduce JaxMess' smooth slide attack maneuvers, but I couldn't do it! Seems pretty hard to do those smooth moves legitimately. Or maybe people change the keybindings in Options? I didn't try that... I imagine trying to slide attack like that could cause carpal tunnel syndrome or other health problems (at least with default settings if keybindings can be changed). Jeez...

[Alpha56]

il y a une heure, nslay a dit :

Yeah! I tried to reproduce JaxMess' smooth slide attack maneuvers, but I couldn't do it! Seems pretty hard to do those smooth moves legitimately. Or maybe people change the keybindings in Options? I didn't try that... I imagine trying to slide attack like that could cause carpal tunnel syndrome or other health problems (at least with default settings if keybindings can be changed). Jeez...

Don't worry about that, they will learn how to play the game normally. You know, using sometimes slides attacks with maiming strike that is awesome, as well as combo, all sorts of melee attacks (there are few hopefully), primary and secondary weapons too (they are cool to use too, yes), as well as their skills on their warframe. 

This won't cause them carpal tunnel syndrome, be rassured!

Edited July 4, 2019 by Alpha56

[EnvoyOne]

17 hours ago, Heiven said:

"Why MS hurts warframe as a whole!"

Well lets see the illustration video and see why you ended to that conclusion.Venka prime the "fun build",only crit mods and mods for speed(+ smite grineer for god knows what reason).No elemental mods or even pressure point,only crit and speed - 60 sec later all enemy's dead.Then the "MS build" Ppp,CO,MS,crit mods and elemental mods for max viral dmg - 23 secs later all enemy's dead.

And boom the verdict that MS shuts down other options just because of it self!?!Mmm yeah,no nope not even close.If it was the same build with MS and after without it plus time detected to see just how much it adds up sure but not this.This was basically like showing a comparison of a unmoded weapon to its self but fully moded with the argument at the end that just because of that 1 mod the weapons goes full nuclear.

 

So do you ask the players if they are going with a MS and Macro build every time you go in a mission?!And in the span of how many missions people were with this set up of the total missions you played?!So far good argument for your claim but i don't see the facts to this.

My reason for showing the Venka build that has no increase on base damage nor elemental damage is to illustrate that for any content within the standard mission types, including level 3 Sorties, can be done with even un-optimized builds. Including builds that I've never seen anyone else use, and ones I haven't even considered or thought of. I was not attempting to draw a comparison about one being better than another, just that they are both viable, but I've only ever seen one of those builds represented. The point is that any build and any melee weapon can be transformed into a slide-crit weapon with use of a single mod, and that speaks to several much larger issues.

And you're right, as I do not have access to any sort of internal usage statistics I can only speak on my own experience and what I observe. Much of that observation consists of an increasingly bored player-base defaulting to whatever DS is most easily attainable. In the case of melee, constant slide attacks. This, of course, speaks to several even much larger issues.

[EnvoyOne]

I just want to take a moment and thank everyone who's been commenting and keeping this discussion alive. Also, thank you for keeping the discussions civil and honorable between your fellow Tenno.

I knew this subject would be touchy for people, and I was very afraid that I was going to be completely alone in my opinion, but it's been very refreshing to see that many people actually take the time to try to understand my points, even if they don't agree with them or think that some other course of action is more appropriate. I also assume that anyone that agrees, probably doesn't comment much and just moves along, so thank you to those who've been helping to clarify my intentions.

I realize that this post comes a few years too late probably, and my timing with TennoCon is probably the worst possible timing I can imagine. Considering that I fully expect them to announce something in the next 2 days that likely addresses all the points that I've tried to highlight thereby rendering this whole thread impotent, I still hope it was worth it to people to get them to think critically about how a single mod can influence an entire game-system, for good or bad.

I do find it a bit curious that no one (that I've seen, sorry if I missed it) has commented on the suggestion I have in the original post: to remove MS and give all melee weapons flat 90% crit on all attacks all the time, no mod needed. Just make all melee do crazy damage all the time. To bring melee "up," so to speak. While probably not a great suggestion for the overall health of the game (and still not disincentivizing slide-attacks since they still have movement), I am very interested to hear what people think that this change would bring to melee as an overall system. It's something I'd like to play around with, anyway.

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

On 2019-07-03 at 6:36 PM, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Ah, the old "I dont like a thing so its HuRtInG tHe GaMe" routine but with a walk of text. Neat.

Please do quote where I said anything even remotely similar or suggestive of that, big boy. Please do say where I actually hate on current melee or anything else, and explain how it's not just you trying to vent frustrations by bending a random statement to whatever you wanna rage about. Last time I checked I do like the way melee is currently, but at least I'm also not scared to death of change like an old geezer would be.

Please explain how I'm saying current melee or anything else is bad and should be changed or hurts the game. Specially since as I said I'm a polearm user and these future change will likely hurt my current playstyle. Please do tell me what you understood instead of what I meant - "Since change is inevitable, might as well see the good sides of it and adapt".

I dare you to make an actual statement on it instead of just barking around with hollow and general statements. Anyone can make those, that's why it's called "cheap talk".

Edited July 5, 2019 by (PS4)Hikuro-93

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

40 minutes ago, (PS4)Hikuro-93 said:

Please do quote where I said anything even remotely similar or suggestive of that, big boy. Please do say where I actually hate on current melee or anything else, and explain how it's not just you trying to vent frustrations by bending a random statement to whatever you wanna rage about. Last time I checked I do like the way melee is currently, but at least I'm also not scared to death of change like an old geezer would be.

Please explain how I'm saying current melee or anything else is bad and should be changed or hurts the game. Specially since as I said I'm a polearm user and these future change will likely hurt my current playstyle. Please do tell me what you understood instead of what I meant - "Since change is inevitable, might as well see the good sides of it and adapt".

I dare you to make an actual statement on it instead of just barking around with hollow and general statements. Anyone can make those, that's why it's called "cheap talk".

Uh, right in the title theres a guy saying that. "why maiming strike hurts warframe as a whole".

Is that specific enough or do I need to break it down further, big boy?

This whole thread is nothing more than a rant posted because op doesntt like something, and consider yourself to be important enough that we're supposed to care what he think "hurts warframe as a whole".

I can do that too. Threads like this and responses like yours hurt warframe as a whole. If you'd like I can write a few paragraphs about that but I dont need 8 billion words to make a point.

Edited July 5, 2019 by (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

18 minutes ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Uh, right in the title theres a guy saying that. "why maiming strike hurts warframe as a whole".

Is that specific enough or do I need to break it down further, big boy?

This whole thread is nothing more than a rant posted because op doesntt like something, and consider yourself to be important enough that we're supposed to care what he think "hurts warframe as a whole".

I can do that too. Threads like this and responses like yours hurt warframe as a whole. If you'd like I can write a few paragraphs about that but I dont need 8 billion words to make a point.

So your response is the title? So I'm OP? Me telling my honest opinion about what I think about melee, maiming and the current goals of the game are hurting the game, and not your "complaining about someone's statements", aka meta complaint?

Being randomly toxic like you are currently doing isn't hurting the game, is it? Because when I asked you to quote where I said what you accused me of the best you could do is throw a title I didn't even write or specifically agreed with.

OP had his opinion, I just stated that maiming isn't too much of an issue compared to before, and that any further issues should be fixed with melee 3.0 hopefully. I contributed to the thread, regardless or my views, other people's views, DE's strategies, or anything else. If anything I mildly disagreed and tried to correct OP in his beliefs that maiming is such a huge problem to the game. But hey, at least I won't go to your level by saying you are a maiming lover:

"I LIkE MaIMinG sTriKe anD I wAnT it To sTaY bEcAusE I'm A mEtA uSeR"

But what did you do? You got annoyed because someone said something you didn't like and proceeded to insult without any contribution to the topic. And then, ironically, proceeded to say other people are the ones hurting the community. Riddle that one for me, please.

One thing though. Since your speech doesn't seem to go beyond hollow and false statements, projections, strawmen and quoting wrong things to prove wrong points I hope you understand that there's really nothing to gain for me to keep an immature discussion alive.

Edited July 5, 2019 by (PS4)Hikuro-93

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Hikuro-93 said:

So your response is the title? So I'm OP? Me telling my honest opinion about what I think about melee, maiming and the current goals of the game are hurting the game, and not your "complaining about someone's statements", aka meta complaint?

Being randomly toxic like you are currently doing isn't hurting the game, is it? Because when I asked you to quote where I said what you accused me of the best you could do is throw a title I didn't even write or specifically agreed with.

OP had his opinion, I just stated that maiming isn't too much of an issue compared to before, and that any further issues should be fixed with melee 3.0 hopefully. I contributed to the thread, regardless or my views, other people's views, DE's strategies, or anything else. If anything I mildly disagreed and tried to correct OP in his beliefs that maiming is such a huge problem to the game. But hey, at least I won't go to your level by saying you are a maiming lover:

"I LIkE MaIMinG sTriKe anD I wAnT it To sTaY bEcAusE I'm A mEtA uSeR"

But what did you do? You got annoyed because someone said something you didn't like and proceeded to insult without any contribution to the topic. And then, ironically, proceeded to say other people are the ones hurting the community. Riddle that one for me, please.

One thing though. Since your speech doesn't seem to go beyond hollow and false statements, projections, strawmen and quoting wrong things to prove wrong points I hope you understand that there's really nothing to gain for me to keep an immature discussion alive.

Alright I'm gonna keep it real with you "big boy".

 

You replied to me quite awhile after I replied. I'm not motivated to go back and read the wall of word vomit that started this thread, and I'm not motivated to go back and read your replies to figure out what I was actually replying to in the first place. Normally, I would be, but you decided to fly in here and salt my fries, calling me "big boy" for some reason, "cheap talk" comment, being a salt lick in general and etc.

 

And I'll be honest I'm not reading whatever rant you posted 4 hours ago (from now) either. Good day sir.

 

[Oreades]

Can't really say Maiming Strike has negatively (or positively) effected my game play in any way. 

I mean occasionally I will see someone on the Endo of Mission screen and kinda scratch my head as to "why does that frame and those primary/secondary have such a high.... Oh it's (insert any one of like 5 maiming strike candidate weapons or a Zaw)" and I kinda shrug and move on. I've long since moved on from the "I give a hecc about EOM screens" my primary concern is "did the loot I wanted to drop, drop?". 

Can't personally be bothered to use Maiming Strike because while I do tend to spin/sweep into large groups of enemies I just can't be bothered to continually swoop around like a top. So I just don't bother working it into my melee builds. Tho I was at one point amused with someone who tried to charge me a small fortune for an "almost god tier" riven with a built in mini maiming strike along with a hefty negative critical damage rate that placed that almost godtier riven significantly closer to potato tier. Not that I would have been interested in the mini maiming anyhow lol. 

This rambling moment was brought to you by rambling, it's like droning but 10% more rustic. 

[(PSN)Mono-Pop]

How the hell hasn’t this thread been locked yet, there is no productive conversation happening here at all.

[Damocles]

lul, if you wanted to remove a dominant strategy turned exploit, aka an unintended spamming of a feature, then just do what most other games do.

Spam crouch behind cover so you can shoot and take cover in an unrealistic fashion? CS GO made sure your knees get tired.

Jumping around too much to avoid gunfire? Kneecaps are weak.

Your AWP is too stronk? Nerf movement speed. Buy the scout instead.

Spamming your gun? Magazine capacity/economy

Just make Spin 2 win a thing that makes your knees weak. Do it 1-3 times, fine... 4-X times? Make it slow like Cleaving Whirlwind's broken bull. You can use it, just severely limited in movement and speed. I hate spin2win spam. There's literally no reason to use any other weapon or strategy (like you said). If I can only use it once or thrice situationally, then I'm pretty sure I'd be happy with spn2win.

[xV3NOMx]

 

Quote

 

So what can be done?

1. Do nothing. 

 

I agree.

There is no reason for this post.

 

[Yamazuki]

Maiming Strike doesn't "hurt" the game, and isn't really what allows the insane slide crits anyways, it's crit scaling with combo. DE removed an alternative to MS, quick melee with certain weapons, as well as not introducing other mods that change how someone could play melee that is of equal effectiveness to MS. Most melee mods are just stat increases.

Warframe heavily prioritizes mobility, and DE knows this, therefore it only makes sense for people who play melee to want old quick melee or to spam slide attacks. Using combos greatly slows you down, and the combos that provide movement misses all targets along the way anyways. Slide attacks with high movement speed+attack speed allows someone to clear groups of enemies quickly. Slide attack isn't even that commonly used, or even the most effective means of clearing an area anyways. AOE Warframes are better than slide attacking in most situations. Defense, Survival, ESO (and the like) a Saryn/Volt/and the like will kill everything before a person only slide attacking gets to really do much. For assassinations a single crit from a high damage gun, and this is before even mentioning you can't really even use slide attacks to kill everything either.

A strategy can't really be dominant when it's not the most effective in most situations, can't be used in all situations others can be, and when it's not even used by most people.

Nerfing and/or removing Maiming Strike and Blood Rush is the laziest way to "balance" melee, and doesn't fix any of the issues melee has. There's a reason why if you play with random people you don't see melee being used as much.