The Lotus: Kill or Save?

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

41 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

The problem is...

The way it is right now is not the  most splintered and divided it's ever been. That was right after the Tenno killed the Emperors. Most major tech went offline because it was gene-locked to people the Tenno had just killed, the Grineer weren't all under the control of the Twin Queens yet (we can make a reasonable deduction that the Grineer in the opening were still loyal to the Orokin because the remaining Dax are fighting alongside them), the Corpus were a bunch of scattered fleets and the Ostrons didn't have the protection of the Unum. The Orokin were

Even the explanation given - that the Lotus had been brainwashed by the Orokin - doesn't stand up, because why would whoever did that remove the 'kill all the Tenno' part, but keep the 'bring about the end of the Orokin' bit of the plan? We know that Natah was following the 'Sequence' that was put forward by Hunhow up until that point.

We also know a fleet was not only ready, it could come at a moments notice. We know this because of the Eidolon. It shows up after the Seven were destroyed, and it seems to have been the only one. Why it did, we don't know. Maybe it broke ranks, maybe it didn't know the sequence. Either way, it showed up in the system just fine and was able to do its thing more or less completely unopposed aside from the Unum and... two Tenno. One of whom only showed up after it was already dead to keep it where it was.

 

Simply put, the idea that the Lotus was using the Tenno to prime the system for invasion makes no sense, because the system was primed for invasion 1,000 years ago. Even the act of bringing the Tenno out hasn't done much to actually 'weaken' the factions, since whilst they have suffered severe losses, their resurgence has also facilitated a major boost in both factions technology and tactics.  The Corpus were sticking to hilariously outdated guns, which worked because the Grineer were even more obsolete. When the Tenno showed back up, the stagnancy of the system was shaken up, leading to rapid development of new weapons and technologies, the Revival of Parvos, and the creation of the Kuva Liches and Sisters of Parvos, new Tenno-level threats that the Sentients have to deal with. The Tenno even save the Heart of Deimos, which bear in mind - the heart's death is a win condition for the Sentients, one they likely can't achieve on their own due to how it's securely under the surface of Deimos and almost certainly too Void-Radioactive to get anywhere near for a Sentient. If the Heart goes down, 90% of Grineer, Corpus and Tenno. Does the Lotus do anything to stop the Tenno from allowing the heart to die - like, for example, getting them to kill the Entrati (which would not be hard since she could just say 'Hey, look, OROKIN. You missed a spot Tenno, do your job)? But she doesn't. Rising Tides also takes place canonically just after the Second Dream, which means that the Lotus also has no problem with the Tenno getting Railjack tech either, despite that being a huge boon for the system's defence.

Either way any of this doesn't change Natah's purpose and when Ballas arrived it signified that they were ready to get the invasion moving forward. 

My mind was made up years ago when I finished the Natah quest: That sooner or later she'd become the villian. 

Well she is now and has been since December 21st 2017. She's been gone as full form Natah almost as long as she's been The Lotus as far a veteran players are concerned. Literally. 

Kinda crazy to think about. And honestly it's very fitting that it's going down this way (maybe even by DEs design, but that reaching a bit).

And that's why I believe that she's likely not making it out if the quest alive regardless the outcome. Because I think there's no going back.

And that's the point.

 

Edited December 2, 2021 by (XBOX)Cram Duahcim

[TeaHands]

I'm cool with saving her, she's been sending gift's to me after devstreams so she seems pretty sorry. 

Unless saving her involves a sliding puzzle minigame to fix her face. I suck at those.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

2 minutes ago, TomCruisesSon said:

I'm cool with saving her, she's been sending gift's to me after devstreams so she seems pretty sorry. 

Unless saving her involves a sliding puzzle minigame to fix her face. I suck at those.

Hey she still can give those gifts.....

From beyond the grave 

[TeaHands]

1 minute ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

Hey she still can give those gifts.....

From beyond the grave 

Or we become The Lotus and give ourselves as many gifts as we want.....

[RLanzinger]

As always, Some Tenno have a GoldFish level memory ...

• Do you remember a dead soon-to-be-dead-again Sentient named ERRA ?
• ... Or an Orokin's scum named BALLAS ? yeah, him, the man who made the warframes by infesting his own soldiers, Brainwashing children....

If you have forgotten, ask UMBRA, I'm pretty sure he is polishing his Skiajati for the next time we meet Ballas-nim...

The NEW WAR is nothing but another Orokin scheme to control us all and Our dear Space-mom Lotus is exactly like we were before ... manipulated by BALLAS !

You are all Eager to kill someone ? : go for the golden scum, it's was always them and always be them :

• Who did create the sentient ? for what purpose ?
• Who did send the Zariman-10-0 into the void with children on board ?
• Do you Recall the Grandmother's Naberus tale ? (I'm pretty sure she is the little girl of the story 😑)
• Do you forget to knock on Nihil bottle ?

IT AS ALWAYS BEEN THESE OROKIN SCUM ! .... BALLAS-SKUUM

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

9 minutes ago, RLanzinger said:

As always, Some Tenno have a GoldFish level memory ...

• Do you remember a dead soon-to-be-dead-again Sentient named ERRA ?
• ... Or an Orokin's scum named BALLAS ? yeah, him, the man who made the warframes by infesting his own soldiers, Brainwashing children....

If you have forgotten, ask UMBRA, I'm pretty sure he is polishing his Skiajati for the next time we meet Ballas-nim...

The NEW WAR is nothing but another Orokin scheme to control us all and Our dear Space-mom Lotus is exactly like we were before ... manipulated by BALLAS !

You are all Eager to kill someone ? : go for the golden scum, it's was always them and always be them :

• Who did create the sentient ? for what purpose ?
• Who did send the Zariman-10-0 into the void with children on board ?
• Do you Recall the Grandmother's Naberus tale ? (I'm pretty sure she is the little girl of the story 😑)
• Do you forget to knock on Nihil bottle ?

IT AS ALWAYS BEEN THESE OROKIN SCUM ! .... BALLAS-SKUUM

Lotus has been the enemy this entire time. You won't change my mind 😉

And regards to the other two: just two more people that are already dead but don't realize it yet.

Lotus isn't Space Mom, but Margulis is. 

Sorry but All 3: Lotus, Erra and Ballas gotta go 👍

"In order to survive war, you must become war" John Rambo

My Operator on December 15th:

https://giphy.com/gifs/Rambo-rambo-MF6ztl46SOqXZOCSmp

Edited December 2, 2021 by (XBOX)Cram Duahcim

[Yrkul]

26 minutes ago, RLanzinger said:

As always, Some Tenno have a GoldFish level memory ...

• Do you remember a dead soon-to-be-dead-again Sentient named ERRA ?
• ... Or an Orokin's scum named BALLAS ? yeah, him, the man who made the warframes by infesting his own soldiers, Brainwashing children....

If you have forgotten, ask UMBRA, I'm pretty sure he is polishing his Skiajati for the next time we meet Ballas-nim...

The NEW WAR is nothing but another Orokin scheme to control us all and Our dear Space-mom Lotus is exactly like we were before ... manipulated by BALLAS !

You are all Eager to kill someone ? : go for the golden scum, it's was always them and always be them :

• Who did create the sentient ? for what purpose ?
• Who did send the Zariman-10-0 into the void with children on board ?
• Do you Recall the Grandmother's Naberus tale ? (I'm pretty sure she is the little girl of the story 😑)
• Do you forget to knock on Nihil bottle ?

IT AS ALWAYS BEEN THESE OROKIN SCUM ! .... BALLAS-SKUUM

Oh, I remember Ballas. I also remember who kept us from taking his head. This is not an either/or situation. It is more a matter of when we are running out of enemies. Even Parvos wound up on the kill list, after DE reduced him from an enigmatic, potentially neutral party, to another two dimentional enemy.

[OneFlyingDog]

Do we get Sentinel frame if Lotus is euthanized?

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

1 minute ago, OneFlyingDog said:

Do we get Sentinel frame if Lotus is euthanized?

Euthanized? Oh I don't think she's  going out "cruelty free" 

 

[OneFlyingDog]

20 minutes ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

Euthanized? Oh I don't think she's  going out "cruelty free" 

 

Ballas: So what are you going to do now?
1. I'll end her suffering now. (Sun)
2. Leave her, she doesn't have much time left. (Neutral)
3. Throw her into the void, and watch her slowly decay in pain. (Moon)

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

7 minutes ago, OneFlyingDog said:

Ballas: So what are you going to do now?
1. I'll end her suffering now. (Sun)
2. Leave her, she doesn't have much time left. (Neutral)
3. Throw her into the void, and watch her slowly decay in pain. (Moon)

Oh that's easy, I'm 100% Moon lol Easiest decision for my Tenno.

"I was born in the dark" in his best Bane interpretation 

 

Edited December 2, 2021 by (XBOX)Cram Duahcim

[Loza03]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

Either way any of this doesn't change Natah's purpose and when Ballas arrived it signified that they were ready to get the invasion moving forward. 

My mind was made up years ago when I finished the Natah quest: That sooner or later she'd become the villian. 

Well she is now and has been since December 21st 2017. She's been gone as full form Natah almost as long as she's been The Lotus as far a veteran players are concerned. Literally. 

The main thing that it changes is... Lotus didn't have any say in it.

Ballas arrived, and it did signify that they were ready to get the invasion moving forward, despite the fact that she didn't want that. Ballas took her by force, and Erra warped her into what she has become through , quite against her will. Her purpose as assigned to her by Erra is not the one she herself desires.

3 hours ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

Kinda crazy to think about. And honestly it's very fitting that it's going down this way (maybe even by DEs design, but that reaching a bit).

And that's why I believe that she's likely not making it out if the quest alive regardless the outcome. Because I think there's no going back.

And that's the point.

I do agree she's probably not making it out of this alive, but I doubt this is because she's beyond redemption. Far from it, I think that she doesn't truly even need redeeming because she wasn't in control of her own actions all this time.

Hence, 'save the Lotus'. Though, again... I have my doubts that she'll 'stay saved' very long, even if that is the path you choose.

[Shotgunpilot]

Going with save, got to return the favor

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

41 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

The main thing that it changes is... Lotus didn't have any say in it.

The Apostacy Prologue is enough for me to think she left with Ballas voluntarily. She leaves hand in hand with him. No force was needed. She made that decision.

That's crystal clear. Or in the Chimera prologue where we have to hide from Natah because she's controlling Ballas while he constructs the Paracesis and gives us the blueprint. 

Then you have The Sacrifice Quest where Natah clearly destroyed Umbra with Ballas. So I fail to see where the force is being applied to her considering you literally witness her blow Umbra to pieces.

She's had plenty of time to have say otherwise.

Anything after that is irrelevant. Whether or not Erra and Ballas are now using brute force methods to control Natah now doesn't really matter when she was a willing participant before right? 

All of these things I feel play right into her skill set of being a Mimic.  We are being shown exactly what she wants us to see.

Everything is a manipulation. That's what she does. I mean she's literally the Queen of Manipulation. 

Which is why I feel she's not being manipulated. Not when she's literally The Mimic Queen. 

Edited December 2, 2021 by (XBOX)Cram Duahcim

[(PSN)reddragonhrcro]

5 minutes ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

The Apostacy Prologue is enough for me to think she left with Ballas voluntarily. She leaves hand in hand with him. No force was needed. She made that decision.

That's crystal clear. Or in the Chimera prologue where we have to hide from Natah because she's controlling Ballas while he constructs the Paracesis and gives us the blueprint. 

Then you have The Sacrifice Quest where Natah clearly destroyed Umbra with Ballas. So I fail to see where the force is being applied to her considering you literally witness her blow Umbra to pieces.

She's had plenty of time to have say otherwise.

Anything after that is irrelevant. Whether or not Erra and Ballas are now using brute force methods to control Natah now doesn't really matter when she was a willing participant before right? 

All of these things I feel play right into her skill set of being a Mimic.  We are being shown exactly what she wants us to see.

Everything is a manipulation. That's what she does. I mean she's literally the Queen of Manipulation. 

Which is why I feel she's not being manipulated. Not when she's literally The Mimic Queen. 

We don't know enought to get an idea of what's really going on, epecially when there's indications that things aren't as they seem. Would be foolish to rush in like that on it.

She deserves a chance just like she gave the Tenno a chance.

[CephalonCarnage]

On 2019-07-09 at 6:52 AM, Alcatraz said:

Ordis is the only one we need

Ordis is fine, but I'm leaning towards Ballas. You can imagine the voice lines, "ah, Tenno. I'm bored. Why don't you kill everything, see if that can reduce a modicum of my ennui".

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

9 minutes ago, (PSN)reddragonhrcro said:

We don't know enought to get an idea of what's really going on, epecially when there's indications that things aren't as they seem. Would be foolish to rush in like that on it.

She deserves a chance just like she gave the Tenno a chance.

I think we've seen enough. She's the reason why we had to put Umbra back together. She destroyed Umbra with Ballas in The Sacrifice Quest. You can clearly see her do that.

Your telling me that she was manipulated before she's even in the position of The Lotus? That makes no sense given what we  know about Natahs part to play at this point.

Margulis is gone at this point. So this happened after her execution but before The Lotus takes her place. 

So she's completely operating as intended. The Tenno haven't killed the Emperors of the Orokin yet. This is the very beginning of the whole plan. Because she's not The Lotus yet because in order for that to happen, Umbra must be dealt with.

Which is why right up until The Apostacy Prologue and she takes Ballas hand, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume she's still a willing participant.

And also why anything after is irrelevant. If Ballas and Erra are now using brute force to control her why should that change anything? She left willingly before and is clearly and active participant given we see her take part in Umbras destruction.

She dosent deserve a second chance. She's been apart of the whole thing the entire time. Shes not "Space Mom" she's only mimicking her.

Space Mom is Margulis. And she died a long time ago.

 

[Loza03]

13 minutes ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

The Apostacy Prologue is enough for me to think she left with Ballas voluntarily. She leaves hand in hand with him. No force was needed. She made that decision.

It's easy to forget that this occurs only after Ballas does... something. It's unclear exactly what, but it's some kind of energy pulse that visibly has a negative impact on the transference signal, indicating that it's some kind of mental effect. Lotus is, whilst not exactly hostile (granted, she doesn't seem the direct-fighting type, at least in this form) doesn't seem particularly interested. Sure, she says 'how long have we waited for this moment', but there's a number of possible interpretations.

Apostasy on its own isn't enough. there's evidence either way. But this isn't 2017, we have more.

18 minutes ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

That's crystal clear. Or in the Chimera prologue where we have to hide from Natah because she's controlling Ballas while he constructs the Paracesis and gives us the blueprint. 

But is he? Ballas isn't exactly a reliable narrator (many of his major plot points involve him lying), and we know he's gotten himself into a pretty position of privilege in the New War. And it seemed that he had one before then too, actually since he seemed to have some level of command over Sentient forces. He only lost it for a brief period of time in the middle for no apparent reason, and that's where we see Chimera take place. But, this snivelling persona of his drops as soon as Erra tosses Lotus into the electric... whatever that is.

Almost like he was talking out his newly bifurcated ass for his own ends... and it would behoove him and Erra to have the Tenno focus on the Lotus. It keeps him and Erra safe and, if Lotus is being controlled, robs them of a potential ally and wounds their morale once the deception is revealed.

 

Further suggesting this is that his speech and Natah's don't add up. Natah claims she was manipulated by the Orokin before and released by Ballas. Ballas claims she tricked him. But... the mimic plan could only have come into being after his defection, so she'd have no reason to trick him before. And as I said, it doesn't make sense for any old Orokin to have mind controlled Natah, because she fulfilled the part of the sequence they'd be most interested in preventing. The only person who would have done that in that way is Ballas, but he'd have no motive to do that if he's already defected, since changing Natah's programming means betraying the Sentients. If he betrays both, whoever wins will kill him if his betrayal is discovered, and his motive is to take vengeance on the Orokin anyway. Besides, he doesn't like the Tenno, why would he change Natah's programming to save only them? As I said, it doesn't aid the plan in any way.

34 minutes ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

Then you have The Sacrifice Quest where Natah clearly destroyed Umbra with Ballas. So I fail to see where the force is being applied to her considering you literally witness her blow Umbra to pieces.

If she's being mind-controlled, that wouldn't necessarily be visually clear. It is, after all, in her own head.

37 minutes ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

She's had plenty of time to have say otherwise.

What kind of yee-yee ass mind control lets the person being brainwashed say they're being brainwashed up front? That defeats most of the benefits of turning a mind-controlled ally on their former teammates! It also puts the line of fire directly on the person doing the brainwashing.

And... also she has. Albeit in the most 'I can't say this up-front' way possible, a coded message.

During Orphix Venom she sends a number of messages, several of which have numbers and letters. I-0-5, A-1, M-2, D-3 for example. Put the letters in the number order and you get...

I AM DYING.

Sending an encoded message to your 'enemies' that you're dying sounds to me like a "I don't want to be on this side of the war. But I don't have a choice. Please help.". Given that her previous personality also didn't want to be on that side of the war, and she only sent that after she began breaking down Erra's deceptions, that sounds to me like she's breaking through brainwashing, but has now been trapped there by more... conventional means.

50 minutes ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

Anything after that is irrelevant. Whether or not Erra and Ballas are now using brute force methods to control Natah now doesn't really matter when she was a willing participant before right? 

And if she wasn't? What then? You want to march blindly in and point a gun at an innocent?

I mean, 'Kneeling at someone's feet whilst in shackles, gazing melancholically at the floor through a shattered face' does not strike me as 'is in this of her own free will'.

Spoiler

This is from the Tennocon Relay thing, for reference, or rather the re-do.

 

58 minutes ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

All of these things I feel play right into her skill set of being a Mimic.  We are being shown exactly what she wants us to see.

Everything is a manipulation. That's what she does. I mean she's literally the Queen of Manipulation. 

Which is why I feel she's not being manipulated. Not when she's literally The Mimic Queen. 

At the same time, it's the perfect cover if someone wanted to frame her. "Of course she betrayed you, she's the Mimic Queen. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain."

If it was just the Lotus indicating she was being manipulated, sure. Mimic Queen. But the people who aren't Mimic Queens also acting in ways that suggest she's being manipulated? Different matter entirely.

If we look at the actions of those who aren't the Lotus, it still suggests that they're manipulating her. Again, Ballas's story doesn't add up, and he appears to be benefitting from his position in the Sentients (botched healing or not. If it ever even was truly botched), and he has little to gain from aiding the Tenno, especially given everything he's done to them. If the Tenno win, they're not exactly going to hand him the keys to the System or any kind of position of Power. They're more likely to finish what they started. Erra is named after a god of lies and is definitely withholding the truth, and turning aggressive whenever the Lotus tries to pry deeper or uncovers what he's hiding. These are not the behaviors or motives of people who are telling the truth, and these are also the only people she's been around for four years.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

43 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

At the same time, it's the perfect cover if someone wanted to frame her. "Of course she betrayed you, she's the Mimic Queen. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain."

The Sacrifice Ending:

Sun: "I am but a stone, she is the hand"

Middle: "Yes, yes she has foreseen it"

Moon: " Now I know, what she sees in you" 

We could be both right. These are Ballas words to us in the ending. So our paths could impact how we view everything.

I feel she's a crucial part to the whole plan and that the biggest tragedy of all is The Tenno are the victims of it. Because in my view: She used Margulis love to mislead them. 

Which very well could be the reality. We won't know until we confront her. It could be the opposite.

Or it could be both given that Ballas dialogue can be interpretated in a couple ways in The Sacrifice.

But for me I don't see Lotus "Space Mom" and I haven't since the Natah Quest:

I've only every seen Natah. I expected this to happen when I finished that quest years ago. 

Edited December 2, 2021 by (XBOX)Cram Duahcim

[Loza03]

33 minutes ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

 

The Sacrifice Ending:

Sun: "I am but a stone, she is the hand"

Middle: "Yes, yes she has foreseen it"

Moon: " Now I know, what she sees in you" 

We could be both right. These are Ballas words to us in the ending. So our paths could impact how we view everything.

I'd say I trust Ballas about as far as I can throw him, but have you seen how far a frame can throw a fully-armoured Grineer, let alone a spindly man in a toga?

Either way, even in that state, Ballas is simply not to be trusted.

43 minutes ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

I feel she's a crucial part to the whole plan and that the biggest tragedy of all is The Tenno are the victims of it. Because in my view: She used Margulis love to mislead them. 

Which very well could be the reality. We won't know until we confront her. It could be the opposite.

Or it could be both given that Ballas dialogue can be interpretated in a couple ways in The Sacrifice.

But for me I don't see Lotus "Space Mom" and I haven't since the Natah Quest:

I've only every seen Natah. I expected this to happen when I finished that quest years ago. 

Certainly, you are right that was true at least at one point.

And certainly, it's not unlikely that the Lotus as we knew her is gone, but it may yet be just as likely that Natah may follow in her own footsteps when actually given the chance.

Or perhaps the act of 'saving' Lotus will involve killing her.

[(PSN)horridhal]

Edited December 2, 2021 by (PSN)horridhal

[fo3nixz]

If choice comes to that: irl rng for me by flipping a coin. 

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

3 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Or perhaps the act of 'saving' Lotus will involve killing her.

OR what if it's killing Natah.....in order to revive/save Margulis? 

Thing is we have no idea what the Jade Light is. And since Margulis has been revealed in the cinematic trailer, we're all but guaranteed to see her make an appearance.

What if there's some sort of time travel element to The New War? If that's the case you can literally satisfy every outcome. 

We could go back in time and potentially save Margulis and put her into hiding. If you basically do that you can maintain continuity.

And honestly, satisfy every basically everyone. I'd be more then ok with that. I'd still get to destroy Natah and Space Mom, the real Space Mom gets saved.

That could be another potential decision. If this quest is several hours as DE has described. We could have more meaningful decisions to make. Maybe not in huge ways like say Mass Effect but to a higher degree then we have in the past. 

In the reveal trailer we do see Teshin hear his quote from War Within.....and Ordis responds to it. So could all those "mirrors" at the end of the trailer be some sort of way to either view and alter the timeline? 

 

 

Edited December 3, 2021 by (XBOX)Cram Duahcim

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

Lotus is the last link in the chain for alliance between all the races. Who knows what desperate pain our Tenno faces. 

We have Grineer defectors tired of war, Corpus altruists who find value even in the poor, Infested hiveminds that ask instead of take, along with the humbled Orokin left in their wake.

Though no sentient allies can, at least until we see Caliban. Should our successions end the Lotus? I'd rather see extensions to my focus...

[SenorClipClop]

It depends on what happens in the New War quest.