Why not just add a store system?

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

Hearing someone talking about 500-1000 day in plat transactions in a single day shows how big a gulf exists between traders and non-traders in the current non-in-game marketplace system.

Most players are happy to get enough for a slot here and there for a new warframe... sell a few prime parts... nothing in that league.

It's a whole different world. Wow. No wonder people like that don't want their golden goose taken from them.

[JuicyPop]

2 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

Going to make up hypotheticals that are unrealistic for the vast majority of players and use that as an argument?

Brush up on your critical reading skills a bit before countering with nothing at all. 

l can’t say I’m surprised that you fell for the trap. You focused on the fake numbers and not the point which means that you don’t even understand the topic enough to not get drawn in by something that’s obviously outrageous.

 

 

[Frendh]

I only read through the first page.

Since DE has said there will be no in game player store, I am not going to argue for or against it.

A simple (temporary?) addition to trade chat, for me as a buyer, would be to add sub chats.  You have 1 main chat like you have now and several sub chats. Everything posted in subchats will be visible in said subchat and also in the main chat. It will make it easier to find things I am interested.  Relics, rivens, non-riven mods, weapon parts, warframe parts and so on get their own subchat.

Personally I mainly use the webmarkets because they are superior in many ways. Right now the only thing I can think of that is better with trade chat is that it is easier to find someone who is active and will respond quickly.

What the service that the webmarkets provide is something I expect game developers to provide. But then again, it is basically a free game and they need to push out new content to get players to stick around.

Edited September 16, 2019 by Frendh

[FrostDragoon]

3 hours ago, JuicyPop said:

l can’t say I’m surprised that you fell for the trap. You focused on the fake numbers and not the point which means that you don’t even understand the topic enough to not get drawn in by something that’s obviously outrageous.

 

 

Ah, the old "I was just kidding... *nervous laugh*" when your argument blows up in your face routine. Cute.

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

13 hours ago, JuicyPop said:

 

Let's say that I can make 300 plat/hr through a composition of mechanisms and that on average I spend about 1000 plat per day in acquiring items to trade at a later date. Let's say that the introduction of an AH depresses the market to the point where I can only make about 100 plat/hr despite an equivalent daily set of acquisitions costing around 500 plat. 

Am I doing better than I was before? 

Brush up on your critical reading skills a bit before countering with nothing at all. 

-> Creates an example that is completely unrelated to reality. 

-> "cOuNtErInG wItH nOtHiNg At AlL".

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

10 hours ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

Hearing someone talking about 500-1000 day in plat transactions in a single day shows how big a gulf exists between traders and non-traders in the current non-in-game marketplace system.

Most players are happy to get enough for a slot here and there for a new warframe... sell a few prime parts... nothing in that league.

It's a whole different world. Wow. No wonder people like that don't want their golden goose taken from them.

Only veterans benefit from the current system. Because they have more than 2000 consecutive days on their wallets to warrant selling a lot of rivens every time. 

I literally saw a guy today on my alliance get 3 rivens worth 500+ plat, why? He's been playing for a long time, no real effort at all for farming or anything, because the only way get a riven is from a daily mission. 

I have nothing against veterans though, just stating a fact.

[JuicyPop]

10 hours ago, (XB1)XG1anBl4derX said:

-> Creates an example that is completely unrelated to reality. 

-> "cOuNtErInG wItH nOtHiNg At AlL".

I'm still waiting for you to actually answer any of the myriad of questions that I've posed in this thread.

I'll do the two seconds of work for you; scale it down to 30/hr (100/day) and 10/hr (50/day). Is that person better off under an AH system now that their effective buying power has been cut by a third? 

Edited September 16, 2019 by JuicyPop

[FrostDragoon]

4 hours ago, JuicyPop said:

I'm still waiting for you to actually answer any of the myriad of questions that I've posed in this thread.

I'll do the two seconds of work for you; scale it down to 30/hr (100/day) and 10/hr (50/day). Is that person better off under an AH system now that their effective buying power has been cut by a third? 

Again with hypotheticals without any real support. It's clear you don't understand the issue. You don't understand how the AH style of market works. You don't even understand that your questions didn't warrant answering.

[JuicyPop]

11 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

Again with hypotheticals without any real support. It's clear you don't understand the issue. You don't understand how the AH style of market works. You don't even understand that your questions didn't warrant answering.

I'm posing a hypothetical question so that I can gauge your understanding and then we can move on from there; I need to know that people can at least understand the math even if it is a hypothetical. If you cannot, then we will be unable to converse meaningfully. 

Either answer the question or cede the point. 

Edited September 16, 2019 by JuicyPop

[FrostDragoon]

I think you've just blown what tiny credibility you have.

Edit:

Since you definitely won't understand what I mean by that.

Quote

I'm posing a hypothetical question so that I can gauge your understanding and then we can move on from there; I need to know that people can at least understand the math even if it is a hypothetical. If you cannot, then we will be unable to converse meaningfully. 

Either answer the question or cede the point.

You're attempting to use insults to make an irrelevant point about a system you don't understand. Not only should everyone ignore you for this, but you inadvertently gave up whatever case you thought you had by doing it.

Edited September 16, 2019 by FrostDragoon

[JuicyPop]

1 minute ago, FrostDragoon said:

I think you've just blown what tiny credibility you have.

By asking you to answer a question? Oh well then, RIP my e-credibility? 

[FrostDragoon]

See the edit, lol

[JuicyPop]

1 minute ago, FrostDragoon said:

See the edit, lol

I still don't see an answer to the question and you're actually attempting to insult me by calling my posts irrelevant and damaging without actually addressing the content. 

[FrostDragoon]

Your "simple math" doesn't encompass the entirety of the issue. That's why it doesn't warrant an answer. It's irrelevant.

[JuicyPop]

26 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

Your "simple math" doesn't encompass the entirety of the issue. That's why it doesn't warrant an answer. It's irrelevant.

Well that’s because the issue is actually rather complex and I doubt that anyone could come up with an outline of exactly how the markets would shake up outside of something borne of sheer survivor bias.

I’m asking you that question because I think people don’t actively recognize the importance of the market’s barrier to entry in keeping the game truly F2P for those who are dedicated enough to dive into it. I think if we were to switch to an AH model we’d see more players being able to afford lots of basic items like slots, reactors, etc. but fewer of the pure-F2P crowd able to acquire multiple pieces of high-end, rare items like Rivens and old vaulted Primes. I think this could result in a loss of appeal from that crowd, due to a perceived increasing gap in power, especially if these items actually start to matter in clearing core content.

You have to understand that power fantasy and potential parity with paying players are big draws in these payment models. I think an AH system would actually start to create a real rift between those that buy lots of plat versus those that buy none at all with the only real benefit being to the casual and new players who simply care about cheap but necessary items.

If you disagree then answer the question and counter with your own opinion.

Edited September 16, 2019 by JuicyPop
On mobile

[JuicyPop]

I’ll separate this in a new post;

One-to-one trading essentially allows for there to be a F2P “middle class” in the WF community for those who have the time and are savvy enough to play the market. There isn’t much of a startup investment required because the uncertainty and the barrier to entry allows for high margins through sheer obfuscation of information. If you cut that out you’ve essentially just killed off the only avenue for F2P players to potentially buy fancy things without grinding themselves to death just so the people at the “poverty line” can have a few more potatoes.

In addition, you’ve put in place an AH that can only be meaningfully manipulated with huge quantities of capital from the “upper class” through mass buyouts and re-listings.

An AH appeals to casuals and ultra-new players at the expense of a sizable amount of the core playerbase.

Edited September 16, 2019 by JuicyPop

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

One thing to consider for this discussion:

For those who won't interact with the 3rd party websites or trade chat, nothing they have has any plat value whatsoever. Plat is a thing purchased with real money, or booster packs, or is given away by the generous (and warframe streams). Slots are the most restrictive resource a person has, and they must constantly make and delete stuff that they make and level, painstakingly (sometimes) deciding between keeping a beloved frame or weapon, or getting access to something new that they may not like at all.

For a trader (or those who buy plat), everything has a plat value, and slots are nothing, and they can keep everything they make, and they can invest forma and reactors and catalysts into everything, and essentially enjoy the game.

If an in-game AH/Marketplace is introduced that lets current non-traders list a limited number of items at buy-out prices while they go to work or something, and finally get access to a little plat... suddenly, they can enjoy the game. Suddenly, everything they have has a plat value. (even 1 plat would result in an infinite increase in value from 0)

For those who currently thrive in a mess of mis-information or lack of knowledge and a haggling dream, they can buy low, sell high, make a killing, and become rich. If their items suddenly plummet in value, they'll still hold some value, and it won't be an infinite drop.

For a majority of people, this results in a better time, even if it takes more trades to eventually save up for the rarer items because each transaction results in gaining less plat than before.

That's the big picture, from my point of view.

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

1 hour ago, JuicyPop said:

I still don't see an answer to the question and you're actually attempting to insult me by calling my posts irrelevant and damaging without actually addressing the content. 

-> "insult me" 

-> The guy is attacking your idea, not you. 

Talk about victimizing yourself. A pathetic view. 

I won't "answer" any questions because you created them with the sole purpose of not being answered. You're talking about Y when we are talking about X and pretending Y has something to do with X. Strawman argument they call? 

I won't answer anything, it's a pretentious narrative. @FrostDragoon let's ignore this guy and keep going.

[FrostDragoon]

That barrier to entry does not help people to afford more. AH style markets have a way of making common things worth a steady stream of small income while allowing rarer things to generate bursts of larger income. Beyond that, the accessibility it offers makes it so that everyone can participate and enjoy it. The exclusionary nature of that "barrier to entry" is a negative impact on the market overall.

What I would predict in the case of Warframe specifically is that overall plat expenditure would climb dramatically at first because the initial implementation would cause a temporary "crash" in prices due to said accessibility (and people buying up tons of slots, reactors, adapters, etc), but that those prices would soon climb out of that somewhat and stabilize at a more moderate value since there would be less plat in the market overall, thus leading to further purchases of plat from DE directly.

In the end we would just see an in-game version of warframe.market that makes sense and is intuitive. I think we'd see higher player retention as well since people get to play with more of what the game offers rather than feeling like they hit a wall due to plat depletion/stagnation.

[JuicyPop]

9 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

That barrier to entry does not help people to afford more. AH style markets have a way of making common things worth a steady stream of small income while allowing rarer things to generate bursts of larger income. Beyond that, the accessibility it offers makes it so that everyone can participate and enjoy it. The exclusionary nature of that "barrier to entry" is a negative impact on the market overall.

What I would predict in the case of Warframe specifically is that overall plat expenditure would climb dramatically at first because the initial implementation would cause a temporary "crash" in prices due to said accessibility (and people buying up tons of slots, reactors, adapters, etc), but that those prices would soon climb out of that somewhat and stabilize at a more moderate value since there would be less plat in the market overall, thus leading to further purchases of plat from DE directly.

In the end we would just see an in-game version of warframe.market that makes sense and is intuitive. I think we'd see higher player retention as well since people get to play with more of what the game offers rather than feeling like they hit a wall due to plat depletion/stagnation.

How on earth does it not? Are you trying to say that DE doesn’t even need to bother because WF.market is already a perfect solution? If you say no, then there is a barrier to entry which affects supply and therefore affects prices and creates uncertainty which translates into larger margins for those few who do interact with the system.

If it doesn’t do this then there shouldn’t be a reason to want to switch.

Edited September 16, 2019 by JuicyPop

[JuicyPop]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

One thing to consider for this discussion:

For those who won't interact with the 3rd party websites or trade chat, nothing they have has any plat value whatsoever. Plat is a thing purchased with real money, or booster packs, or is given away by the generous (and warframe streams). Slots are the most restrictive resource a person has, and they must constantly make and delete stuff that they make and level, painstakingly (sometimes) deciding between keeping a beloved frame or weapon, or getting access to something new that they may not like at all.

For a trader (or those who buy plat), everything has a plat value, and slots are nothing, and they can keep everything they make, and they can invest forma and reactors and catalysts into everything, and essentially enjoy the game.

If an in-game AH/Marketplace is introduced that lets current non-traders list a limited number of items at buy-out prices while they go to work or something, and finally get access to a little plat... suddenly, they can enjoy the game. Suddenly, everything they have has a plat value. (even 1 plat would result in an infinite increase in value from 0)

For those who currently thrive in a mess of mis-information or lack of knowledge and a haggling dream, they can buy low, sell high, make a killing, and become rich. If their items suddenly plummet in value, they'll still hold some value, and it won't be an infinite drop.

For a majority of people, this results in a better time, even if it takes more trades to eventually save up for the rarer items because each transaction results in gaining less plat than before.

That's the big picture, from my point of view.

I disagree with that being healthier for the game, but I can see the logic.

[FrostDragoon]

39 minutes ago, JuicyPop said:

How on earth does it not? Are you trying to say that DE doesn’t even need to bother because WF.market is already a perfect solution? If you say no, then there is a barrier to entry which affects supply and therefore affects prices and creates uncertainty which translates into larger margins for those few who do interact with the system.

If it doesn’t do this then there shouldn’t be a reason to want to switch.

As I said, you clearly don't understand the issue. At all. It honestly feels like explaining Biology to a toddler. There just aren't terms simple enough for them to understand.

Edited September 16, 2019 by FrostDragoon

[Avienas]

1 hour ago, FrostDragoon said:

As I said, you clearly don't understand the issue. At all. It honestly feels like explaining Biology to a toddler. There just aren't terms simple enough for them to understand.

Your not the only one honestly Frosty, Its a fiasco to where i am amazed this one guy called Guzmanti something who kept popping up in the feedbacks about changes needing to occur on market chat, has yet to decided to rear his head. Basically dealing with white knights and what not who clearly do not take a proper understanding that warframe trading system in a flop in many ways, while the ones who are slightly smarter flaunt out excuses (with some backed up quotes) that warframe market needs no changes, kind of a lame excuse when its clear they are using the frustrating system as the barrier to entry excuse.

• One of these being the fact that you used to have plenty of players who would be ok with doing alternative forms of payment then just platinum, since prime parts had some actual value, same with Ayatan statues, especially before relics were around due to the difficulty of getting them, but because of things like arcanes getting so common, riven mod fiascos, the further devaluing of goods which for a long time had a pseudo-flooring to it, well since no solid information system was present to keep it in check, supposedly newer players and more greedy ones kept dropping the prices since they had no proper in-game reference material to follow averges and what not and its not like d.e. has sign posts up to point players to 3rd party sights who did the job for them on having a stable system to keep values.
• Heck long ago i relied on sites like warframe.market so i can stay with averages and plenty of people were cool with those values when i on that avg number, now if i try to use sites like those i usually get the silence or just people insulting me in some way that is way too expensive. 

Overall, it does not matter what ANYONE says, regardless of sides, The most PURE and HONEST fact is Changes Need To Occur, for if nothing happens at all then Warframe just continues to cement itself into a game that has some hype to keep it going then it loses its players after that initial hype and even frustrates the more veteran players who had the tolerance to stay around, even if they have other titles they have way much more fun and immersion in. Heck, i stopped doing sortie many months ago due to how bleh it is these days for someone who done it plenty of times, already hit nightwave rank 40 with season 2(around 50 with wolf), almost have every focus skill maxed, have mastered all the gear and such and i only just login for my login rewards these days to inch myself to getting primed shred finally.

Beyond that login and restarting those 24 hour forma bp crafts, i am just playing Borderlands 3 these days and before that was sinking time for a short while on other games which even if they have their own frustrations, still at least gave me some good fun that i enjoy, the same kind of fun i had with warframe when it did not have alot of the frustrations it has these days and had for quite some time.

Edited September 17, 2019 by Avienas

[JuicyPop]

1 hour ago, FrostDragoon said:

As I said, you clearly don't understand the issue. At all. It honestly feels like explaining Biology to a toddler. There just aren't terms simple enough for them to understand.

Well maybe you should try anyways instead of repeatedly saying, “You don’t understand the issue.” A smart person like you should know that it’s not a compelling argument in the slightest. If you understand the dynamic that well, then you should be able to explain it both succinctly and in great detail.

I’ve yet to see a post from you that has an actual detail of your thoughts.

Edited September 17, 2019 by JuicyPop

[FrostDragoon]

I gave you a glimpse of it and you basically just said "no u" in longer format without any comprehension or thought to what that system would look like. You're simply not worth the energy and I don't believe you intellectually sophisticated enough to grasp it even if I did. You have no argument of any kind, so there's no need for me to have a counter argument to it. The base argument I--and many here--have been making has yet to meet with any real counter either, so the way I see is simply: Us 1 - You 0.

Your move.

Edited September 17, 2019 by FrostDragoon